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| Inui vs CATS | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 7 2007, 08:17 PM (1,248 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Jan 7 2007, 08:17 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Normal rules. This will be some good shit. 
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 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| +Ema Skye | Jan 7 2007, 08:40 PM Post #2 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Etrurian Knight General vs Etrurian Royalty. Two blonde Nazis wee~ Let's talk about Percival's biggest flaw first, supports. Or is it? Percival's Supports C requires the friendship rating of the two people supporting each other to be 60, B requires 120, and A requires 200. (Starting friendship rating/growth per turn next to each other) Dorothy: (1/+1) Klein: (20/+2) Lalum: (1/+2) Elphin: (20/+2) Douglas: (30/+2) Cecilia: (30/+2) Dorothy - Fire Klein - Ice Lalum - Thunder Elphin - Light Douglas - Thunder Cecilia - Anima Dorothy isn't too bad of a unit, but we can pretty much rule her out as a support partner thanks her the low base friendship and slow growth of the support. Lalum would be in the same boat if not for the decent growth of the support. Elphin and Klein are fast options, and Douglas and Cecilia are very fast choices. Safe assumption: A Lalum/B Klein or A Klein/B Lalum. Both are good units and support not too slowly with him. Replace Lalum with Elphin for other route. Average Hard Mode Percival; Level 5 HP: 50 STR: 19.5 SKL: 16.0 SPD: 19.8 LUK: 14.5 DEF: 15.2 RES: 12.7 Percival comes with a silver sword and a silver lance. Two powerful weapons you can use to rape, or use to boost your funds. Growths HP: 75% STR: 30% SKL: 25% SPD: 35% LUK: 20% DEF: 20% RES: 10% His growths are quite mediocre. While being below average, they are still superior to Garet, Niime, Marcus, Dayan, and Yuno. and probably a few other units' as well. You can be confident that his HP will grow, and his SPD and STR will also do fine. His other stats will only go up occassionally. Percival's power comes from his RNG proof bases, not his growths. His growths only keep his HP very high, and increase his STR and SPD to boost his offense. Averages HP: 60.0 STR: 24.0 SKL: 19.8 SPD: 24.9 LUK: 17.5 DEF: 18.2 RES: 14.2 He is...fucking amazing. He caps HP and SPD easily, and he comes damn close to capping his STR. His DEF is above average, and his LUK is fine. His RES is amazing for this game. It's only a few points away from the RES averages of several magicians, even. Hugh has 14.6 at full price... Melee units with more RES: Thany and Tate. Thany is outclassed by every other flier besies Yuno and Tate is outclassed by both Wyvern Riders. Percival is likely to be the only melee unit in your whole army with good RES. Well, there is Roy, but his RES is stuck at 5.7 until the last 3 chapters in the game, and he won't beat 14.2 until 20/13... [size=7]Situational Usefulness[/size] First off, Percival will tend to be at a higher level than most of your units. A few prepromoted units, like Klein and Marcus, or a unit like Dieck that gets a lot of use may match him in level, but certainly not surpass him. 1 level per chapter will be the standard, with 1.5 levels in the chapters with an extremely high amount of enemies. Enemy Samples From Chapter 15 - taken from the enemies not on the front lines since Percival will only be in combat for the latter half of the chapter. Level 18 Mercenary HP: 41 STR: 16 SKL: 20 SPD: 18 (-1 from steel sword) LUK: 8 DEF: 9 RES: 4 (Usually have steel swords) Level 18 Cavalier HP: 41 STR: 15 SKL: 12 SPD: 13 (-4 from steel lance, -2 from javelin) LUK: 10 DEF: 10 RES: 4 (Usually have steel lances) Level 5 Sniper HP: 44 STR: 16 SKL: 17 SPD: 12 LUK: 11 DEF 10 RES: 8 (Both have silver bows) Level 17 Dragon Rider HP: 43 STR: 19 SKL: 12 SPD: 14 (-3 from steel lance) LUK: 7 DEF: 15 RES: 3 Level 18 Archer HP: 39 STR: 14 SKL: 13 SPD: 12 (-3 from long bow) LUK: 10 DEF 8 RES: 3 (All 3 have long bows) Level 1 Valkyrie HP: 33 MAG: 15 SKL: 10 SPD: 18 LUK: 11 DEF: 7 RES: 14 (Elfire and Physic) Raeth - Level 8 Paladin Boss HP: 47 STR: 19 SKL: 12 SPD: 10 LUK: 13 DEF: 15 RES: 11 (Spear) And this is basically the standard for the rest of the game. High powered enemies. Those enemies have stats that are equal or better compared to the stats of your own normal units on average. Percival, however, dominates them. He can already double attack every enemy in the first chapter he's in with the exceptions of the Valkyries and half of the mercenaries. Chapter 16 Level 6 Percival HP: 50.75 STR: 19.8 SKL: 16.25 SPD: 20.15 LUK: 14.7 DEF: 15.4 RES: 12.8 If he gained SPD on his first level-up, he will double attack every single enemy in chapter 16 besides Narshen. Even without gaining SPD, he will double attack everything besides Narshen and one or two mercenaries. The average attack power of melee units, discluding Douglas, the Mamkutes, and Narshen is ~25. Percival can get the weapon triangle to be in his favour for nearly every battle, reducing that to ~24. Percival will take 9-10 damage to his massive 50-51 HP in the event that he is even hit. Percival has 55-60 dodge. Mercenaries have ~115 hit, and are the most accurate enemies on the map. They will have ~50% chance to hit Percival. Everything else will have less(again, the two Mamkutes are not being included). No enemies can land a critical on him. The mages have about the same attack power against Percival's 13-14 RES and massive HP. So, it would seem Percival is very durable. Perhaps your most durable unit period when you consider all parameters. Offensively, he's also one of your more superior units. Paladins have 11-13 DEF, Mages/Bishops around 5 DEF, Snipers have 9-11, and the Mercenaries have 8-9 DEF. Armour Knights have a nice 16-17 DEF, but pitiful avoid and RES. The promoted units have a lot of HP, but Percival can reliably kill any unit in a single turn. Mages pose no problems, he can use axes against the armoured units along with effective weapons, and the same goes for when he fights Paladins. Thanks to his 12 CON he can use the heavy effective weapons without losing his ability to double attack. Mercenaries don't have the durability to take two hits from a good lance if Percival's using it. He'll need an S rank weapon to one-turn-kill a Mamkute, and he won't have an S until the end of the chapter at least...so he can't exactly rape those two Mamkutes. Narshen is the boss, and has very good stats. Sample Hard Mode Narshen HP: 55 STR: 20 SKL: 17 SPD: 18 LUK: 15 DEF: 22 RES: 12 Narshen has a runesword, so attacking at a distance is retarded. Narshen's hit on Percival will only be 34 if Percival is using a lance, which is a lot better than what most other units can hope to get. Clarine might have more avoid and a few other super dodgy units, but they won't deal enough damage to Narshen for them to be effective. Narshen can't beat Percival if he's using something like a silver lance. Narshen's Delphi Sheild makes him immune to bows unless you get a thief with 18 SPD or more to get to him and steal it, which isn't that likely because there are too many chests to deal with. Percival is basically one of the better units for taking on one of the strongest bosses in the game. When it comes to finishing in time to get a good tactics rating, he's really handy. He can fight through enemies easily and move around easily, and he's good for getting rid of Narshen quickly providing he can double attack him. He can escort thieves to the chests so you can get them all in time without hurting your ratings. By the end of this chapter, he should have a C with Lalum and Klein. Chapter 16x Lots of mages. Lots of mages. A Bishop for a boss. A long winding road to the end. What's better than a Paladin with high RES? By the middle of the chapter, Percival will certainly be level 8 at least. Level 8 Percival HP: 52.25 STR: 20.4 SKL: 16.75 SPD: 20.85 LUK: 15.1 DEF: 15.6 RES: 13.0 The Bishops have 36-37 HP and 22-23 RES, so your own magicians won't be doing anything to them, especially Rei due to WTDA. Melee units with high RES are the best choices. Percival, basically, since he has the highest RES of all the melee units in the game discluding FalcoKnights. He has the avoid and the hit to handle anything, too. This chapter has a map that requires a lot of movement, so Percival is extra handy thanks to his class. The boltings, purges, and the status staves are also handled by Percival better than any other melee unit could besides FalcoKnights. This boss can be pretty annoying. Windam HP: 45 MAG: 24 SKL: 15 SPD: 15 LUK: 20 DEF: 14 RES: 13 Nice LUK. Relying on a critical to win isn't a good choice, obviously. 32 attack when it's magic based...is something most of your units can't handle. Even a capped RES unit will still take damage if hit, and even your highest RES units will only have 20-23 RES right now at best. Windam has fucking 80 evade on the throne. 80 evade. Good luck hitting him with anyone that isn't an anima magic user or a swordmaster/hero. Even Percival will have trouble. Oh, wait, no he won't. Equip him with a slim sword and he'll rip Windam to pieces without running the risk of taking massive damage that Fir/Dieck would have. You'd think an anima user would be great, but the throne offers 5 RES and 3 DEF, which makes Windam's RES end up higher than his DEF. Sacae Route > Ilia Route 1. Leveling Shin and Sue is a much better idea than leveling up Tate and Thany, as Shin is superior to Tate and Sue is superior to Thany. The Nomad Trooper class is amazing in the lategame against the hordes of wyvern riders, while the FalcoKnight class falters against anything it doesn't get WTA over and magicians. 2. Dayan is an underrated unit that actually has uses, while Yunno is a piece of useless garbage. Dayan is a Nomad Trooper that has enough SPD to double any wyvern rider in the game with his bows, and he supports with Shin, Fir, Rutger, Sue, and other great units. Yunno is probably the worst unit in the entire game, and her supports are nowhere near as good. Dayan > Yunno, thus going the Sacae Route is better. Thus, it is safe to assume that it's better to go through the Sacae route. It means you leveled up the more useful class between Nomads and Pegasi, and you're getting a better unit on your team during the route. Chapter 17 Level 9 Percival HP: 53.0 STR: 20.7 SKL: 17.0 SPD: 21.2 LUK: 15.3 DEF: 15.8 RES: 13.1 Tons of nomads in the south, magicians to the east. Percival can easily handle both. As one of your highest RES units and a unit with good avoid, he can move into the forests with a javelin or hand axe and handle the mages and sages. He's got the avoid to dodge most of the time, and the RES and HP to take blows when they do hit him. In the south, there are a lot of nomads and nomadic troopers, and a ballista. Miledy and Zeiss are bound to have a hard time. Your best options are tanky units. The actual Generals in this game suck. So, who are you going to use? Percival, obviously. Alcard is rather slow and only uses lances, so any axe user can thrash him with supports helping them. Percival included. C with Klein still in effect, B with Lalum now. I'm going to assume Klein is out of support room and can't afford more than a C with Percival. Chapter 18 Level 10 Percival HP: 53.75 STR: 21.0 SKL: 17.25 SPD: 21.55 LUK: 15.5 DEF: 16.0 RES: 13.2 Average Nomad HP: 35 Attack: 18 Hit: 116 Crit: 18 Attack Speed: 19 Avoid: 46 Crit Evade: 9 Defense: 7 Resistance: 5 Percival vs Nomad(Javelin/Hand Axe) HP: 55 Attack: 20/21 Hit: 51/46 Crit: 0 Attack Speed: 22 Enemy Hit: 56 Damage: 2 Enemy Crit: 2 Righto, then. Percival doesn't even double attack them and he's one of your faster units right now. Only Fir and Rutger will have more speed at this point, or maybe Lance. However, unlike Percival, Fir and Rutger can't fight back against the horde of nomads. And I mean a huge horde. 12 Nomads 6 Nomad Troopers. 6 Myrmidons. 2 Shamans. 2 Wyvern Riders. 1 Druid. 1 Wyvern Lord. This is not including enemy reinforcements, which end up being as much as the initial batch of the enemies or even greater. Continuing on, Percival is easily one of the best units for this chapter. Not only can he effectively fight back against every enemy, but he can handle the Nomadic Troopers with swords and the myrmidons with his Javelins as well. Percival with Javelins is a key player in this chapter as he can effectively fight every single enemy in the entire chapter. He destroys the Nomads; deals 21-22 damage with a 46-51 hit rate using very inaccurate and weak weapons, and only takes 2 damage to his massive 55 HP at a 56% chance of being hit. He wrecks the most abundant unit type in the chapter, killing them in two hits and tanking against them marvelously. So much for magic users dealing more damage, too; the Nomads have only 2 less RES than DEF and Percival's weapons are stronger than magic. He can double the myrmidons due to them using heavy swords, and they pose no threat to him damage-wise at all. The Shamans deal decent damage to him...and massive damage to every other melee user in you have except a leveled up Marcus or Zealot, and they shouldn't be fighting anymore. Percival is the the best choice for slaying the Shamans and the Druid. Why? He doubles them, takes less damage than your other melee units and has more HP than almost every single you have, your magic users wield anima and are at the disadvantage, and Saul and Ellen cannot fight in this chapter at all due to being wrecking by the melee units. Percival is effective with axes against the Wyverns, but any axe/bow user would be just as good. The Nomad Troopers are the monsters of this chapter. Average Nomad Trooper(Bow/Sword) HP: 43 Attack: 21/24 Hit: 119/109 Crit: 18/8 Attack Speed: 20/18 Avoid: 49 Crit Evade: 9 Defense: 12 Resistance: 7 Wow. With their bows equipped, they could double attack several of your units. Your units certainly won't be doubling them. They're very accurate and have good critical rates, and are pretty evasive. They certainly aren't bad at dealing damage, especially with a steel sword equipped. In this chapter, the enemies swarm you all at once. They have high movement and attack range and move in quickly because of this. You need a unit like Percival that can perform every function well; tanking, fighting back, and moving around. He is excellent at both taking blows and striking back, and chasing them down with his high movement. You have to get Roy, a weak unit that gets doubled and destroyed, to the gate. You need to do this quickly for your tactics rating to not suffer. Now, onto the final wall in Roy's way of completing this chapter; Monke. Level 9 Nomad Trooper[sample hard mode stats used, including gate bonuses](Brave Bow/Brave Sword) HP: 48 Attack: 28/27 Hit: 122/127 Crit: 10 Attack Speed: 21 Avoid: 77 Crit Evade: 15 Defense: 18 Resistance: 15 ...Holy shit. Even Percival can't fight this guy alone. He's got brave weapons, good hit, excellent avoid, and enough critical avoid to not be threatened too much by critical hits. Doubling him is but a mere dream unless you are Fir or Rutger, and dealing good damage to his 18 DEF and 48 HP with them is their own dream. The key to beating Monke is to use supported lance wielders that won't get double attacked or take massive damage from his brave sword. Naturally, Barth is rather good for tanking in this entire chapter. However, he will have a very poor hit rate against Monke even with the WTA and supports. His SKL and LUK are both horrendous. Monke will hit him 4 times every turn, and will have a critical rate and will deal some damage. Bors is slightly better at hitting and avoiding, but he'll take slightly more damage and die sooner, and deal less damage. Percival takes only 10 damage from Monke's sword, and Monke's hit is only 57...and this is without counting any supports Percival should have by now. This is a boss, so I'm assuming you'd put away the iron lances in favour of better weapons. Namely a killer or silver lance. Percival vs Monke(Killer/Silver) HP: 55 Attack: 15/19 Hit: 50/40 Crit: 23/0 HP: 48 Enemy Hit: 57 Damage: 10 Enemy Crit: 0 The silver lance is great for raw damage, but it's bad at everything else. The killer lance is easily the better choice for both a faster finish and cost efficiency. One critical puts Monke near death, and one critical counting supports kills him. A supported Percival with a killer lance destroys Monke nice and quickly without having the worry of dying that other offensive powerhouses would have. Chapter 19 Level 11 Percival HP: 54.5 STR: 21.3 SKL: 17.5 SPD: 21.9 LUK: 15.7 DEF: 16.2 RES: 13.3 The two nomads to the left and two to the right are hardly threats as they are weaker than the ones in the previous chapter, so just take them out with whomever. The three nomads up top are slightly stronger, but still not much of a threat if you lure them in with durable units. Like Percival, who only takes 3 damage from them...to his massive 55 HP. That one nomad trooper is another story, however... Level 8 Nomad Trooper Sample HP: 46 STR: 16 SKL: 18 SPD: 20 LUK: 10 DEF: 11 RES: 7 Short Bow, Steel Sword Good luck slaying that in one turn with anything, really. What's that? Only 5 damage to Percival and it can't double him even with that high speed? Only a ~61% chance to him anyways? Tsk. When the Nomad Trooper uses the steel sword, he's at the disadvantage to Percival's lances and has less accuracy in general from the weapon swap...so let's assume he's going to just miss. Next comes the Wyvern Riders and Wyvern Generals, a small group on each side. A Percival and Klein team effectively mops up either side, with maybe a unit or two with them. Just use axemen followed by magicians and bow users, and you won't have any trouble. Just have a healer nearby to save your axe users, since there's an axereaver on each side. The next issue is the Sage with a sleep staff. Now, even with Percival's 14 RES that Sage will have around a 70% chance of putting him to sleep. Against other melee units..expect between 80 and 100. Point is, Percival is better at avoiding it. You'll need some restore staves for this chapter, especially since their is another Sage with a silence staff. The hard part about this chapter is finishing quickly. There are three major obstacles in you way. 1. Long distance to traverse. 2. Plethora of different unit types(nomads, mages, myrmidons, wyvern riders, and all of their promoted counterparts, along with several archers). 3. Gel. Problem 1: Percival has 8 movement. This is the highest normal movement score in the game, and it belongs to mounted units. Fliers will be of less use here despite their high movement due to the plethora of bow users. Miledy will be able to take some blows, Zeiss's level is still too low to make him a frontliner and he gets doubled a lot, the the FalcoKnights will take tons of damage when hit. Too bad there is only one Delphi Shield. Anyways, the Paladin class shines here as the most useful. High movement without the weakness to bows. Problem 2: Percival, being able to use three melee weapons and having no stat flaws, is the Jack of all trades for this chapter. He can effectively fight every unit, taking minimal damage from both melee and magic attackers, and avoiding at least half the time. He can run away if the rare need to ever presents itself, and he can charge in quickly to help others. He can actually double the myrmidons(hooray for heavy swords) and also double all of the nomads, archers, mages, and sages. He one turn kills all of these units. He can slay the swordmasters in two blows of a lance, as well as the nomad troopers. The wyvern riders are rather tanky, but axes, magic, and bows can take them down. At the end of turn 13, the enemies begin to attack the villages, but you should be able to move in before that and take most of them out using your good units. Problem 3: ... HP: 50 Attack: 29 Hit: 131 Crit: 43 Attack Speed: 27 Avoid: 89 Crit Evade: 15 Def: 16 Res: 15 Light Brand Haha? A chapter 19 boss that's basically harder to kill than Lloyd of FE 7...in the final chapter. Nobody can safely fight this guy except a few units. You need supports, that's for sure. Someone with a swordreaver, your anima users, and maybe a lance using tank. Chapter 20 Level 12 Percival HP: 55.25 STR: 21.6 SKL: 17.75 SPD: 22.25 LUK: 15.9 DEF: 16.4 RES: 13.4 Even Niime rapes those axe fighters in the very beginning, so who cares. The warriors are pretty easy to thrash, too. There are a few mages, some swordmaster, random nomads, etc. It's a pretty straightforward chapter and the enemies aren't too strong. However, it's still an incredibly dangerous chapter, and you need to play through it quickly to get the sidequest for Miugre. Two Sages are running around where you can't hit them, and they both have Bolting with ~103 hit. Considering their 32-33 attack power, and your units' low RES scores...they suddenly become very dangerous. Percival can actually take a hit from both of them, and still live. Very few other units can do that. Silencing them with Niime is a solid idea since she is most likely your only magic user with both high enough MAG and staff level. Killer ballistas on each side. Those are a threat to anyone really, thanks to critical being rolled before hit. Dodgy units with good LUK are ideal, but those units aren't likely to be targetted. Percival can even shrug off a critical from one of those things with his good DEF and incredible HP. Miledy or Zeiss with MAXED DEF still take ~28 damage from a ballista without the delphi shield. It would be great if you could take your time when dealing with those threats, AND getting the chests and fighting the enemies...but you can't. Not only do you have to finish quickly for your tactics rating, but you also need to finish quickly in order to get the sidequest to obtain Miugre. You have to blast through. What's ideal for blasting through a chapter like this? Certainly not Wyvern Lords, thanks to the ballistas and boltings. Certainly not FalcoKnights, thanks to the ballistas, axemen, and nomads. So...that leaves Paladins, yes? Percival is very ideal, since he can fight everything pretty easily. Finishing this chapter quickly is twice as important as it normally would be, so having a unit like Lalum/Elphin tag along with Percival(they support with him) can speed you up. Roartz Level 10 General(sample hard mode stats used, throne bonuses included) HP: 60 Attack: 34 Hit: 105 Crit: 13 Attack Speed: 14 Avoide: 74 Critical Evade: 16 Defense: 26 Resistance: 18 Spear(1~2 range) I have no idea why he's such a coward when he has such impressive battle parameters and a good weapon. Anyways, using axemen that can double attack him is probably your best bet. You need the power of axes to deal nice damage, and the WTA is handy in both hitting and dodging. Percival can double him, has good STR, and he can use axes. He's not the best choice, but he can do fine with a support or two. Supported magicians are effective if they can double him, too. Killing him quickly is the problem, but you can just rush him. Chapter 20x Level 13 Percival HP: 56.0 STR: 21.9 SKL: 18.0 SPD: 22.6 LUK: 16.1 DEF: 16.6 RES: 13.5 By now, he should have an S in both swords and lances and an A in axes. As I stated earlier, his powerful bases keep him rather strong even with his poor growths; but his HP, STR, and SPD do grow, keeping him solid for the endgame. The nomads and nomad troopers are of the same power as the ones way back in chapter 18. I don't really need to explain much, except mention that Percival's advantages he had previously are now even larger. The nomad troopers are, of course, still threatening to most of your army, but I already explained how to defeat them for the part; bait them in with durable units(ones that can use javelins, preferably) and gang up on them. Let's look at the other threats. In the south central part of the map, there is a wyvern lord with one wyvern rider, and the south-central-east area has 2 wyverns with 1 wyvern lord. The wyvern riders have good stats, but are eighed down by their heavy weapons. Magicians and bow users can decimate them; yes, even Dayan. The two wyvern lords...have maxed STR, nearly maxed HP, and use silver lances. 40 attack and 103-105 hit. Haha, pretty damn deadly. They're not too bad at hitting, and they can nearly OHKO your magicians(they can easily OHKO Niime, and probably Ellen, Lilina, and Clarine as well). My point? Percival is ideal for baiting them in with an axe equipped. They have ~31 hit on him not counting any supports you might have in play for him. They'll deal 22 damage(...), but that's still a lot less than what a lot of your units would take if hit. If he does take the 22 damage, he still has 34 HP, so he'll be nowhere near death. The three Nomadic Trooper bosses are basically the same as Monke statistically, so I need not list off their parameters and stats, just their weapons. Kabul: Short Bow, Killing Edge Thoril: Short Bow, Silver Sword Kudoka: Short Bow, Lancereaver Trick to winning? Get the WTA over them close up, with units that their 25-26 SPD won't double attack and with units that have enough attack power to deal good damage for faster finishes...such as Percival. The three Druid bosses have the same stats, with a few single point variations. Brakul: Fenrir, Berserk Chan: Nosferatu, Silence Marral: Fenrir, Sleep Brakul and Marral are easy because Fenrir rapes their SPD, so just rape them with swordmasters or something like that. Chan is a lot harder because he keeps his ~21 attack speed and heals himself when he hits you. He's probably the hardest boss in this chapter due to that, but you shouldn't have too much trouble with him if you play smart. Clarine will do crap damage(could be 0) and has WTDA, so using her is a bad idea despite her high dodge. I would suggest a FalcoKnight or Swordmaster, to be honest. Status Staves, yay~ Even Percival's good RES for a melee unit will only slightly deter the staves, and the Druids will still have 60+ chance of affecting him. Oh well. Better than the 70-100 that they'd have vs most of your other melee units. Just have Restore staves on hand. This chapter is big. This chapter is full of bows. You need to conquer several gates in order to finish unless you get very lucky and get the right one first. Sounds like the Paladin class is still the best option. Chapter 21 Level 14 Percival HP: 56.75 STR: 22.2 SKL: 18.25 SPD: 22.95 LUK: 16.3 DEF: 16.8 RES: 13.6 Hmm. This is one of the hardest chapters in the entire game. But, don't worry, you get Yodel the Beast at the beginning! In all seriousness, this chapter is a bitch. You have to fight your way all the way to Murdock and then slay him and seize the throne within 25 turns to get the sidequest that grants you Apocalypse. The map is huuuuuuuuge. Go Paladins and their high movement! I'll have to admit that Wyvern Lords are effective as well. Nomadic Troopers will be amazing here for slaying the wyvern riders, and your Berserkers can go into the peaks and rape the wyverns too. Just use your nomads, paladins, berserkers, and wyvern lords, and make sure you have healers and some aircalibur wielders, and you'll be fine. There are several Sages with VERY high MAG stats, 25-26, so you'll need some good magic tanks to fight them(huzzah Yodel). They have pretty decent hit, so relying on dodge isn't too smart. Percival has solid RES and very high HP, so he can take some hits just fine. The archers and knights are hardly threats at all, as the only unpromoted units worth mentioning are the wyvern riders because of their mobility and high STR. The archers can be problems for your FalcoKnights and that's about it, as Miledy and Zeiss have so much HP and DEF the bowmen hardly affect them. The Sages and Bishops, however, will rape them soundly(I see a 26 MAG Sage with Aircalibur on the map right now, for instance). The amount of reinforcements in this chapter exceeds the amount of initial units. And there are already a lot of enemies to begin with. All of the reinforcements are wyverns and paladins. You need to blast through them quickly without dying in the process, so units like Percival are extremely vital. Keep your high durability axemen up front(Percival, for example), and keep bowmen and magicians around to take down the wyvern lords. Murdock is a scary motherfucker. Level 20 General(sample hard mode stats used, throne bonuses included) HP: 72 Attack: 40 Hit: 108 Crit: 11 Attack Speed: 13 Evade: 71 Crit Evade: 15 Defense: 31 Resistance: 24 Woooooo~ His Tomahawk means he can attack at a range or up close, and with 40 attack, that can be pretty scary. Your best bet is to use a strong swordsman with an Armourcutter that can double attack him. I'd say a Swordmaster would be good, but Murdock's HP and DEF are very high and he does have 15 Crit Evade to help him out. Plus, he'd deal a LOT of damage if he managed to hit one of your Swordmasters, especially Fir. They lose SPD from an Armourcutter, which hurts their avoid a bit. I'd say Percival is better for the job, since he can survive two entire hits and deals a ton of damage with his great STR. Taking two hits from Murdock and living to tell about it is something very few units can do. Murdock will only have 30 Hit on him anyways, and thanks to the two RN system, that's actually less. He heals 7 HP per turn, which when added to his normal defensive parameters, makes him one of the most durable units ever in FE history. Let's look at Gale, just for kicks. Level 18 Wyvern Lord HP: 60 STR: 26 SKL: 19 SPD: 16 LUK: 15 DEF: 25 RES: 14 CON: 12 AID: 13 I wish he could join your side. He's got those amazing stats and still two levels to gain. Mhmmmm @ his HP/STR/DEF. Chapter 21x Level 16 Percival HP: 58.25 STR: 22.5 SKL: 18.5 SPD: 23.65 LUK: 16.5 DEF: 17.0 RES: 13.7 By now, Percival should have S ranked his swords and lances and probably has an S in axes, too, making it so he can use three legendary weapons. This chapter is the most boring one in the entire game, in my opinion. It's got some good old annoying fog of war and you have to loop around the entire level with two different parties. Fog of war makes it more risky to move around normally. To the left, there is a Hero with a brave sword and he's got a hit rate of ~130. His other statistics are no joke, either. HP: 55 STR: 19 SKL: 22 SPD: 18(16 from using brave sword) LUK: 12 DEF: 16 RES: 7 This Hero is...on par with a level 10 Dieck. o_o; Level 10 Dieck HP: 51.6 STR: 20.6 SKL: 22.5 SPD: 19.2 LUK: 13.4 DEF: 14.8 RES: 6.6 I find that amusing. The enemies are often as strong as your non-hard mode boosted units. Luckily, Percial is not part of that group. There is another Hero with similar stats to the right, and he's got a silver sword. Each side has a Sniper with a silver bow and two mercenaries. The mercenaries are accurate, and that's about it, so they are not hard to dispose of. The promoted units are more troublesome, especially the Heroes. Percival can actually move into either crowd of 4 units and take every blow and still survive. Let's have him go to the left where the brave sword Hero is, and have him equip a lance. 10x2, 8, 8, 14. Assuming he takes every single blow, he'll still have 9 HP left. Since he'll have a lance equipped, the three sword users are pretty likely to miss a blow, and the Sniper isn't guaranteed to hit him, either. 65 avoid w/o supports is no joke. The situation is the same on left side, if not even easier for him to survive since there is nobody with a brave weapon. How many other units can just blindly charge into those crowds and come out alive even after taking every single blow? Not many. I'm not even going to bother mentioning the unpromoted enemies anymore, since they aren't threats at all. There are three more Snipers on each side, but they are both using steel bows, so they aren't much of a problem. They're really slow and will get doubled by just about anyone and their defensive stats aren't good. The Generals are more of a problem, even though they are incredibly slow. They both have 50+ HP and ~23 DEF and ~10 RES, so they're pretty durable. They're using hand axes on you, most likely, so they're not a threat offensively unless they attack directly with their silver lances, in which case they become deadly. Percival can slay them both VERY easily with an armourslayer or a hammer. One Hero will show up on each side, and they've got silver swords and are of the same level as the first two, so they can be quite the problem. There's a Druid on each side after that, and they will deal a ton of damage if they hit, but they are very slow and pretty easy to kill, so they aren't a problem unless they catch you off guard and hit a unit that's already nearing death or has really low RES. They certainly aren't a threat to Percival. There's a General on the right side now, and he's got a hand axe and a horseslayer. Hey, a ~23 STR unit with a horseslayer, Percival's first real threat. If he's on the left, he's just dealing with a Hero that has an armourslayer, which isn't a problem for him since he can just equip a lance and then wreck him. Even against that General, he can equip an axe and have good avoid and he can take a blow without dying, so it's not too much of a threat. Next up is a General on the right, and a Berserker on the left, both easily slain because they're slow and inaccurate. Percival with a sword easily kills the Berserker, and armourslayers/hammers make him easily crush the General. Some more steel bow using Snipers on each side, yawn. There's a Druid on each side near the boss and one in front of him, and they all have physic staves, so they are pretty useful for the enemy side. There's a Druid with a silence staff, and that could make some of your magic uses useless for a few turns. The Druids are dangerous since they deal a lot of damage in one hit, but they are slow and not accurate, so you shouldn't have problems with them. There's another Hero with a brave sword, so just kill him like you did the other one. What's the point of explaining all of this stuff? It's simple; Percival can handle all of these situations, and all of those units, perfectly fine. He can dodge, take the hits, and kill them. He's one of the very few flawless and perfect units that can charge through this chapter without much worry. Pereth: Level 17 Druid(hard mode sample used) HP: 42 MAG: 28 SKL: 18 SPD: 15 LUK: 16 DEF: 16 RES: 24 Weapon: Nosferatu Thanks to having those Godly throne bonuses and using Nosferatu, Pereth is VERY durable. Accurate units with high avoid are useful against him...so, Percival actually can't do much here, sadly. Just use Swordmasters with avoid boosting supports. Not quite done with Chapter 22 and onward, so we'll have to wait for those chapters. Clarine... Now what does she have going for her? She joins in Chapter 4 like this: HP: 15 MAG: 2 SKL: 5 SPD: 9 LUK: 8 DEF: 2 RES: 5 HP: 40% MAG: 30% DEF: 10% ROFLMAO WTF. Low bases and bad growths in three stats as vital as HP, MAG, and DEF. Wow, sucks to be Clarine. She's only healing 12 HP with Heal. Terrible. Not even half of the HP of your units. Level 5 Ellen HP: 17.4 MAG: 2.5 SKL: 6.9 SPD: 8.6 LUK: 10.1 DEF: 0.2 RES: 7.8 She is indeed exceptionally bad in DEF, but her MAG is already 1 higher and grows at 50%, so she's going to end up raping Clarine in MAG big time. She also wins in HP, RES and LUK. Yes, she will defeat a LUK beast in LUK. Ellen doesn't seem too terrible anymore, since she's beating Clarine in three statistics, one of them being very vital for a healer, the MAG stat. I won't argue that Ellen > Clarine, but I will argue that Clarine is not infinitely better and that Ellen will always heal more HP. Saul - Level 5 HP: 20 - 60% MAG: 4 - 40% SKL: 6 - 45% SPD: 10 45% LUK: 2 - 20% DEF: 2 - 15% RES: 5 - 50% Saul crushes her in HP, starts out healing more HP even if Clarine gains 2 levels before Saul joins. Saul, like Ellen, will always be healing much more HP than she does. He will also be crushing her in HP and winning in DEF. He has meaningless win in SKL, but it's there. His small victories in DEF/RES and his big win in HP makes up for Clarine's Evd lead. Saul is also the best light magic user. Ellen's AS is way too low, and Yodel's durability is abysmal against anything not using magic. I will argue that Saul is good, unlike Ellen. Lugh and Rei will also be crushing Clarine in both healing and offense once they promote. They will heal enough with Heal, and once they can use Mend, they will be raping Clarine even at her main function. Even Hugh can do the same, despite him being inferior to Lugh and Rei. Even Niime, Yodel, and Cecilia can heal more HP. Clarine has the lowest MAG average in the entire game. How is she good at healing if the amount of HP she is healing is extremely low? No supports can fix that, sadly. |
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| C475_1337 | Jan 8 2007, 01:20 AM Post #3 |
One serious d00d
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No way I’m going to bother countering all that point for point…… Percy’s Supports Lalum x Percival is 90 turns to A Rank. That’s 9 turns per chapter to get A by 21x. 9-10 turns per chapter is about where I draw the line for FE8. However, this is FE6, and we’re aiming for an S Rank, which means we’re flying through the chapters and abusing Percy’s 8 move and move after actions. And there’s a 3 point move gap between Lalum and Percy. This thing hitting A Rank, I do not see. B sounds reasonable, though. An A Rank with Klein is plausible, except that Klein wants to Support Clarine over Percy, so if either Rutger or Dieck isn’t there Clarine steals Klein from Percy. Both Rutger and Dieck are amazing, though, as shown in the Dieck vs Rutger topic in general FE6 discussion, so Percy’s mostly safe from Clarine. Dieck, however, may wish to Support Klein, and Tate might want to as well……and Klein wants to support both these units more than he does Percival, as he can start supporting them instantly after he joins. And besides, who’s to say Klein is being used in the first place? Why do I want to use him? His LvL 10 stats are, w/ HM Bonuses: 37.6 Hp 18.5 Str 19.0 Skl 16.7 Spd 16.9 Luck 10.5 Def 9.5 Res Igrene’s LvL 10 stats are: 38.3 Hp 19.1 Str 20.3 Skl 18.2 Spd 10.8 Luck 11.9 Def 10.4 Res Whee, even with his HM Boosts Klein still loses to Igrene in every single stat except Luck. Now let’s compare to LvL 20/10 Lott: 57.7 Hp 17.8 Str 16.8 Skl 18.1 Spd 9.8 Luck 17.4 Def 4.9 Res Lott clearly thrashes Klein. And Lott himself is not an impressive unit at all. Sniper is a horrible class, I’d much rather not use any of them at all, but if I must use one, I’ll take Igrene. Why do I want to use Klein, again? Oh, that’s right, I don’t. Maybe I’d use him if the object of the game was to make Percival as strong as possible, but unfortunately, it isn’t. And even when I want to use him, there are 3 units sitting there waiting to steal him from Percival.
Doesn’t matter. The debaet is Clarine vs Percival, not Clarine vs Other Casters. The debaet also effectively begins at Chapter 15, as that’s the first chapter where both Clarine and Percival are present, and continues from there until the game is over. Use Late Game 20/15 Clarine 32.2 Hp 14.9 Mag 20.1 Skl 24.7 Spd 28.6 Luck 7.3 Def 21.2 Res 6 Con A Rutger B Dieck Now I am going to be as generous to Percival as I literally can be. Here comes his LvL 20 stats with best case scenario supports included. ??/20 HM Percival 60.0 Hp 24.0 Str 19.8 Skl 24.9 Spd 17.5 Luck 18.2 Def 14.2 Res 12 Con A Klein B Lalum Now, HM Wyvern samples:   Iron Axe Percival does 13 Dmg to the Master with 100% Hit and 6% Crit. Thunder Clarine does 17 Dmg to the Masters with 100% Hit and 31% Crit. Against the Rider, Iron Axe Percival does 16 Dmg with 100% Hit and 6% Crit. Thunder Clarine does 18 Dmg with 100% Hit and 31% Crit. Clarine can counter the ones with Javelins, Percival can’t. Both DA. Both have infinite durability(the enemies have 0% Hit against both). Percy can use a Steel Axe, but in that case his Hit is no longer 100% and his durability is no longer infinite, he still does less Dmg to the Master, and his odds of one-rounding the Rider are still substantially lower than Clarine's. Whoamg, Clarine wins. Despite her “[insert insulting adjectives here]” Mag, and even when Percival has Best Case Scenario Supports and a level lead that he won’t have, not to mention that his stat caps were ignored when adding in his HM Bonuses. So much pampering and he still loses. h4x. Now to provide direct quotes from you in the FE6 forum:
Therefore I conclude, Clarine > Percival. Other advantages that Clarine has: -High Staff Rank. Percy can’t use Staves at all. Gogo: Heal Mend Recover Physic Fortify Saint’s Staff Restore Barrier Warp Rescue Hammerne The C Rank and above staves aren’t likely to be used by anyone else, therefore Clarine provides many unique and quite useful functions. Can Percival repair a Legendary Weapon back to full usage? No. Can Percival boost the Exp Rating while simultaneously giving a +7 Move boost to any unit? No. Can Percival up the Res of any unit by 7 and restore any unit in the event that they get hit by status staves(these two features should be quite useful considering how high you kept saying the enemy casters’ Mag is)? No. Big win to Clarine. -Clarine’s Supports help more Percival’s Klein Support gives effectively no offensive boosts. The defensive boosts are not as useful on a unit like Klein, whom you do not want to be getting attacked, ever(due to not being able to counter and not having very good durability anyway). Lalum can’t attack, therefore any offense boosts are wasted on her, and you want her to be getting attacked even less often than Klein, and she has an even easier time than Klein keeping out of the line of fire. Dieck and Rutger, however, are frontline units and make excellent use of the bonuses Clarine is transferring to them. The same is true of Clarine herself. Percy’s other advantages? lawl, nothing. Combat ability is all he has. I rest my case. |
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| +Ema Skye | Jan 8 2007, 11:11 PM Post #4 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Then you concede my point of Percival being utterly flawless and a top unit for the entire time he is in your army, which was the point of all that.
B Lalum with A Klein is fine then. The game doesn't end at 21x, as there is 22 after that, and then two more chapters providing you have all of the Holy Weapons.
Clarine doesn't want Klein when she has Rutger and Dieck already, and will nearly be full on supports when Klein joins. Tate is outclassed by Miledy, obviously.
Reasons to Use Klein Over Igrene 1. Klein crushes her in supports. He has units like Percival, Clarine, and Tate. Igrene's support options, honestly, are worse than Percival's. 2. Klein has a few chapters over Igrene to build supports and gain levels, thus giving him a further support edge and a small level lead. 3. Klein has 70% more total growth which takes him to higher averages in the end. 4. Klein's avoid is higher due to massively superior LUK, and avoid is more important on a Sniper than defenses. Reasons to Use Klein Over Lott 1. Lott's joining situation is terrible, as he is very weak and overshadowed by the Cavaliers, Dieck, and Roy. Then later overshadowed by Rutger. 2. Marcus and Zealot make better earlygame axe users, and then Geese/Gonzales overshadow him, and then promoted Cavaliers/Dieck do the same. 3. Shin and Klein overshadow him in bows due to much higher bow level and far better joining situations. Don't see how Lott is clearly winning with less STR/SKL/LUK/RES, the latter two by rather large amounts, either.
No, it matters. It's mattered in every other debate, and it matters here. For the latter half of that section, I don't recall that ever being a standard, and I'm the main creator of the standards for these debates. My arguements stand; all other casters, even the garbage ones, heal more HP than Clarine does. 2 MAG base with 30% growth severely harms Clarine. Good units that make better healers than Clarine: Lugh, Hugh, Rei, Saul. Lugh is arguably the best anima caster and will be your first magic user to promote in most cases. Once his staff level hits D, which is very easy, he can use Mend and heal tremendous amounts of HP, as can Hugh and Rei. Rei is your only good choice for Apocalypse and his impressive MAG stat makes him heal more HP than anyone else in the game. Hugh is a really durable guy with much more MAG than Clarine as well, but he's not on the same tier as the other casters due to his cost. Saul doesn't have the staff level flaw that the others have, but he lacks Clarine's super avoid. He's still better at healing from matching her staff level and having vastly superior MAG. Hugh, Lugh, and Rei also clearly crush Clarine in offensive power, and Saul wins as well. Terrible units that heal more HP than Clarine: Yodel, Niime, Cecilia, Ellen, Lilina, Sophia. Yodel starts with an S in staves right away and has 3 more MAG than Clarine, so he's better at actual healing. Niime starts with a nice 21 MAG and can hit 22 with some luck and she gets much more distance out of Physic/Warp than Clarine can ever hope for. Besides Sophia and Lilina, these units don't even have the staff level flaw. -All other casters heal a lot more HP than Clarine does. -All other casters get more distance out of staves involving distance. -Several other casters(Lugh, Hugh, Rei, Saul) clearly crush Clarine in offense. Saul also wins. Vastly superior MAG combined with much better SKL in all cases besides Hugh. All valid points. My biggest point: She can use supports to counter her abysmal HP and DEF, but she cannot do anything about her poor healing and staff usage capabilities due to her abysmal MAG stat.
Why in God's name should Percival be locked to an iron axe when Clarine gets thunder? Weapons Percival can use that are much better: Killer Axe, Silver Axe, Lancereaver, Brave Axe, Tomahawk. Wyrmslayer removes his WTA but grants him a lot of damage. Brave Sword grants 4 hits, Silver Sword grants more power than normal axes, and Killing Edge grants him high critical. Brave Lance, Killer Lance, Silver Lance, blah blah blah. Percival has an incredibly huge arsenal at his disposal that Clarine does not. Before you say it, I'll say it; Clarine can eventually use Aircalibur and one-round the Wyvern Riders easily and almost do the same to Wyvern Lords. Unfortunately for Clarine, Aircalibur requires a B rank in Anima and all other anima users are more powerful than her with it, especially Lugh. Clarine starts with an E in Anima and will need to see a lot of combat to get that B, which isn't likely when other units beat her in offense. Yeah, we can pretty much count out Aircalibur until post-Zephiel around chapter 22 or so. Fire's cost per use: 14 Thunder's cost per use: 20 Elfire's cost per use: 40 Aircalibur's cost per use: 55 Iron Axe's cost per use: 6 Hand Axe's cost per use: 15 Killer Axe/Silver Axe's cost per use: 50 Well, even with her base weapon, Clarine is overall less cost efficient for the entire game. She's more damaging to your funds rating, using more expensive weapons/staves to accomplish the same things other casters can with less cost. Against Wyverns, bow users and another anima users have her beaten. The other weapon types will show the same cost leads in Percival's favour. Clarine is also less effective at helping the Combat rating while building up her anima level and fighting in general. It's best to one-round enemies when it comes to Combat, which Clarine is very bad at doing. Percival effectively one-rounds more enemies than Clarine can ever dream of. Clarine may even take three rounds to kill some enemies. Killer Axe Percival does 16 Dmg to the Master with 100% Hit and 36% Crit. Thunder Clarine does 17 Dmg to the Masters with 100% Hit and 31% Crit. Against the Rider, Killer Axe Percival does 19 Dmg with 100% Hit and 36% Crit. Thunder Clarine does 18 Dmg with 100% Hit and 31% Crit. Percival wins when using a Killer Axe. Why not use it when it's needed? You won't need it in all cases, as you have more than enough competent bow users and magicians to handle wyverns when they're around, anyways. Lugh, Hugh, Rei, Saul, Klein, Shin, Igrene, Lott, and multiple other units can handle Wyverns well in terms of offense, though none but Lott are as durable as Percival/Clarine against them. Yes, Thunder Clarine is more cost efficient, but Killer Axe Percival is more Battle Skill efficient and Tactics efficient since he slays them faster and is more likely to one-turn kill them.
Hand Axe, Tomahawk, Javelin, Short Spear, Spear, Light Brand, Runesword. What?
Hmm? C staff level is easy for the casters to hit, and Saul has no trouble doing so since he has the same staff level as Clarine. Saul's really your only good choice for Aureola and Light in general, so he's likely to be in your army. All other casters will heal more HP and get more distance out of every staff. Using those staves is also bad for your Funds rating. The other casters accomplish what Mending Clarine does while just using Heal.
He helps a lot with rankings. Better for Combat/Battle Skill as he is a better fighter, while Clarine harms this rating. Better for Funds as he is overall much more cost efficient. Great for Tactics due to his move and great statistics combined. Great for Power since he's so powerful?(I actually don't really know what the Power ranking is about). Percival is clearly better, no? |
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| C475_1337 | Jan 10 2007, 06:36 PM Post #5 |
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One serious d00d
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Also irrelevant. No matter how good Percy is on his own, if Clarine is still better, guess who wins this debaet? No unit can be perfect in the literal sense, therefore there is always room for improvement, and Clarine is an improvement on Percival.
Sure, like I said, Clarine does not often want Klein support. Dieck and Tate, however, are there. Dieck’s got double B’s with Clarine and Rutger, so he’d like a C with Klein to fill out his list, and Tate quite likely wants an A Support with Klein, as her other options are not very good and she joins around the same time as Klein.
This hardly makes her useless. Harken is outclassed by Raven, but he’s still a high tier unit. Tana is outclassed by Vanessa but still 1337.
Massively superior? Whee obvious bias and exaggeration. If Klein’s 6 Luck lead and 3 Avo lead can be called “massively superior,” Clarine’s Luck and Avo leads over Percival simply can not be described with words. Igrene can indeed be argued as superior to Klein. You don’t want your Snipers to ever be taking hits, due to their lack of a melee counter, and they can bypass the counters of pretty much any enemy when attacking; defense is less important for them than for any other combat unit, as they’re never being placed in the line of fire if you can help it. Attacking is all they’re good for, not defending or countering, and since Klein gets almost no offensive gains at all from his supports, Igrene’s still beating him out in terms of offense. You also seem to think Tate shouldn’t be played and Clarine shouldn’t support Klein, leaving his only support option as a unit who joins in Chapter 15 and likes to blast ahead with 8 move.
The Str is by less than a whole point, while his Spd is 1.4 more, and last I checked he also has more Con. On the defense it’s Klein’s 4-5 Res and 4 Avo vs Lott’s 20 Hp and 7 Def. And since you brought factors other than raw stats into Klein vs Igrene, Warrior >> Sniper, Axes >> No Axes. The fact that other units are better than Lott doesn’t matter; these same units are all also better than Klein. If they take Lott’s spot on the team, they’d be taking Klein’s as well. Anyway, let’s not waste time getting sidetracked on that stuff. The main point here is that Klein’s not turning any heads. At 20/10 he has under 20 in all non-Hp stats and the worst class in the game. His HM stats are hardly even better than FE7 Louise. You can give reasons to use him over this unit or that, but no reasons have been given why he should be on the team in the first place. To make Percival better so you can win this debaet? lol, no, the goal here is to S Rank HM, not to make Percy as strong as possible. Klein brings quite literally nothing to the table, being completely unimpressive statwise, having zero utility value, and topping it off with the worst weapon setup. Yeah, I’m thinkin’ Klein’s not going to be there very often at all. And then even when Klein is played, Percival’s possibly going to be stuck with only a C or B Rank with him, rather than an A. The needs of the team as a whole supercede Percival’s individual needs, and supporting Klein with Tate makes a much bigger impact than supporting him with Percival(Percival joins later and doesn’t even need the bonuses as much).
Every other debate? Nope, this wasn’t in CATS vs Hollie, for one(or it wasn’t a main factor). A shame that we’re having to fool with it here; you seem dead set on spamming this trash, so I’ll have to address it more thoroughly. None of it is relevant, all of it is painfully skewed, and part of it is false anyway. I’ll cover it as such in that order. #1: You chose to defend Percival in these debaets. Not Lugh, not Hugh, not Rei, not Saul. Clarine’s performance as compared to that of other casters has no relevance whatsoever to Clarine vs Percival. I mean, Clarine heals for the lowest Hp value in the game, therefore Percival must heal for more than her, and Saul is allegedly a better healer than her, therefore Percival must also be a better healer than her. Oh wait. The simple fact that Clarine can heal at all is a significant advantage for her over Percival. There’s no way to deny this. “lol but that doesn’t matter much when she heals liek nothing at all” Such allegations, if made, are rubbish. Mend Clarine heals for 30+ Hp and Recover Clarine heals infinite amounts of Hp. Percival can not heal at all. Advantage: Clarine. ‘Course, you completely ignored my passage on Clarine’s staves over Percival that I posted before, so I fully expect you to ignore this as well. Guess there’s no counter for the truth, huh? #2: I love the blatant exaggeration of Clarine’s Mag. You keep spamming “all healers heal more than clarine,” stressing this even more than her offense. As if Mend Clarine’s 30+ Hp usually isn’t sufficient to bring an endangered unit back into the fray. As if Recover isn’t available in dire emergencies where you need more even than a Mend Staff can provide. So far as healing abilities go, this is not a significant disadvantage, no matter how much you may wish that it was. Healing more Hp than Clarine is about as useful as having more AS than a Swordmaster; the unit you’re beating is still getting the job done perfectly or quite close to it, so who caers. I also love how you continually thunder on and on about Clarine’s only low stat while totally disregarding all her strong points. Besides Sophia and Lilina, these units don't even have the staff level flaw. As if they don’t have other flaws; hell, as if these “terrible” units even have a chance of being played anyway. Anything to skew the debaet in your direction, eh? I read your post and here is how I see that your logic can be applied: "My arguements stand; nearly all other units, even many garbage ones, have more Spd than Oswin. 5 SPD base at 9/0 with 30% growth severely harms Oswin. Good units with more Spd than Oswin: Eliwood, Hector, Lyn, Raven, Kent, Sain, Lowen, Guy, Florina, Fiora. *insert pointless stuffs, such as Guy is possibly the fastest unit in the game, Hector boasts Oswin’s defense with more Spd, etc*. Many of these units flatly crush Oswin in double attacking potential, and even the slower ones like Hector and Lowen still clearly beat him. Terrible units with more Spd than Oswin: Karla, Matthew, Louise, Isadora, Renault, Wil. Many of these units have more Spd than Oswin can ever hope for. -Most other units DA more than Oswin. -Several other units(Raven, Sain, Hector) clearly crush Oswin in offense. Vastly superior Spd combined with much better Skl in all cases besides Sain[like Oswin, much less Clarine, has bad Skl or will have trouble hitting anything……]. All valid points." Oswin has one stat hole, therefore he must suk, right? Right? No? Huh, what, he’s in “Hax Tier”? Ranked #2 unit in all of FE7 from the power rankings? But his speed sux so much, no wai! ;_; About as reasonable as eating a frog because green is your favorite color. See, any unit starts to look bad if you focus on only their weak point and ignore the rest of everything; the same style played in reverse would quickly strike down all the casters you parade over Clarine. That’s a patently ridiculous way to judge units. As we both well know, Oswin is amazing despite his low Spd, compensating with other advantages, such as hax defense. His strengths are great enough that he’s better even than a unit like Harken, who has no real stat holes and even gets HM Bonuses. Take those last two sentences, replace “Oswin” with “Clarine,” “Spd” with “Mag,” “his” with “her,” and “Harken” with “Percival,” and you still have two true statements. Hm, that’s funny. In addition to superior defense and supports along with mounted advantages in all cases, Clarine is more cost efficient than Rei(Dark Tomes = overpriced) and Hugh(have to pay to recruit him lol), and has a substantially higher Staff rank than Lugh, Hugh or Rei. You almost entirely skipped over these things, instead focusing only on the cost of choosing Clarine, which in this case is clearly less significant than the benefits. You can’t just pick and choose individual details that favor your side as you please, and pretend that everything else isn’t there; you need to step back and look at the picture as a whole. And #3:
For the first 3 names there: lol, no. In terms of raw healing power, Clarine can use Recover. You can’t spam Recover, but fortunately, you don’t have to; Mend Clarine heals 30+ Hp. Recover is only going to be used in emergencies, but in these emergencies, it is indeed there, and defeats anything the others have in terms of raw power. And even if these 3 had something to fight that with, which they don’t……if you can overlook every single one of Clarine’s strong points, surely I have the right to overlook any advantages Lugh/Hugh/Rei might have. A unit that gets E Staves on promotion can’t beat Clarine in pure healing power. Regardless of how much you do this, I refuse to waste everyone’s time by throwing garbage like this at Percival, pretending that he suxx0rz because his supports are bad, and failing to mention anything else about him. Such a stupidly one-sided style won’t convince anyone. I’ll be the first to admit that Percival is excellent, though I’ll also be the first to claim that Clarine is better still. I prefer objectivity and realism to partisanship and outright bias, thank you very much.
Before we proceed, let’s take this opportunity to remove Percival’s pampering and handholding. Here are the stats you gave for Chapter 21: LvL 14(not 20) HP: 56.75 STR: 22.2 SKL: 18.25 SPD: 23.75 LUK: 16.3 DEF: 16.8 RES: 13.6 Add in B Lalum. I gave a quite thorough explanation of why Klein’s usually not there earlier in this post, and you agreed that the Lalum support’s not going past B Rank(not yet atleast). Now, take a deep breath everyone, here comes the boring part:
……At LvL 20 with full supports. The loss of A Support Klein is -1 Def/-15 Hit/-15 CEV/-15 Avo/-7 Crit, on top of his now-lower inherent stats. So, under realistic circumstances: Killer Axe Percival does 14 Dmg to the Master with 84% Hit(94.88% real) and 29% Crit. Thunder Clarine does 17 Dmg to the Masters with 100% Hit and 31% Crit. Against the Rider, Killer Axe Percival does 17 Dmg with 84% Hit(94.88% real) and 29% Crit. If they have a Javelin his Hit goes up to 86%(96.08% real), or if they have a Steel Lance, it goes up to 90%(98%). Still quite accurate, but less accurate than Clarine. Thunder Clarine does 18 Dmg with 100% Hit and 31% Crit. Percival loses when using a Killer Axe. Fix’d. Now let’s mention some more things: First, even if you add A Support Klein back in, Percival’s still losing. With it, he has an 4.885% lead in terms of how likely he is to one-round-kill the Riders. He needs not one but two Crits to kill the Master; Clarine’s advantage against those is by 39.43%, which dwarfs Percy’s lead against the Riders. Even if you give those Riders 3 times the significance because there are 3 times as many of them, Clarine’s advantage against the Masters is still clearly more significant(Percy’s advantage = 4.885 x 3 = 14.665, which is still much less than 39.43). Even with a Klein Support that he won’t have, Percival's getting the short end of the stick. Second, Clarine also wins cost efficiency in a landslide(20G per use to Percival’s 50G per use). Normally I’d be honest and say this doesn’t matter since you can easily get 5 stars in funds anyway, but since you’ve tried to use cost efficiency as a point against Clarine, this deserves attention. Also don’t forget that she can counter the Riders w/ Javelins: “zomg tomahawk”—makes Percy worse against everything else, so feel free to use one if you want. Last but not least, Percival’s defense is no longer infinite here. Against the Masters, he faces 22 Dmg at 17% Hit(5.78% real) w/o Klein Support, 21 Dmg at 2% Hit(0.08% real) w/ A Support Klein. Against those Killer Lance Riders, he faces 12 Dmg at 21% Hit(8.82% real) and 10% Crit(o snap!) w/o Klein Support. Not a big deal especially if Klein’s there(he won’t be, usually), but markedly worse off than Clarine, as she has infinite durability here. As for those other weapons you named, Percy doesn’t want to use them over the Killer Axe, and I’ll explain why: With a Silver Axe he still doesn’t 2HKO either of these enemies, and now also has less Hit and much less Crit, for less overall chance of one round’ing them. Lancereaver brings his Hit up to 100% but drops his Mt by 1 and Crit by 25, so again, less overall chance of a one round kill. It’s also obscenely pricy(120G per use; literally six times that of the Thunder Tome Clarine’s using). Silver Sword, Killing Edge, Silver Lance, Killer Lance, these are all weaker versions of their Axe counterparts. With a Brave Axe, he can kill the Riders in 4 Hits, but needs all 4 Hits to land in order to do so. The odds of landing all 4 Hits are about the same as his odds of getting at least one Crit with the Killer Axe, meanwhile, he throws cost efficiency to the wind(75G per use, more than even Clarine w/ Aircalibur, and he’s hitting 4 times so he’s eating funds twice as fast as a normal unit), sacrifices his chance of killing those Masters(even 4 Brave Axe Hits isn’t enough), and loses 8 Avo. So yeah, Percy wants to stick with that Killer Axe.
First let’s see just how much combat she needs to get that B. http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/elaice/fe6/calc.html Her Crit is around 30% in practice, as shown by our Wyvern comparisons, so the odds that she Crits at least once when DAing are ~51%. We’ll just say 50% for a nice round number, and say that Clarine therefore kills 50% of the time when she attacks, and just ignore all the times that she would’ve killed without a Crit(finishing off a weakened enemy or something). All attacks give 1 WEXP, fatal hits give 2 WEXP. Clarine needs 150 WEXP to reach B Rank Anima. Just DAing is 2 WEXP; DAing and killing is 3 WEXP. Since half her attacks are assumed to be kills, we’ll say she gets an average 5 WEXP for every two rounds of combat; at this rate she needs to engage in combat 60 times to reach B Anima. If she was promoted in Chapter 15, she has to fight 7-8 times per Chapter to have B Anima by Chapter 21. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me, if Percival is given 8-9 turns per chapter to support Lalum. I can also think of two reasons you’d use Clarine to fight over someone like Lugh: 1. Clarine’s much more durable than almost anyone else. It may not be safe for Lugh to be getting attacked by the enemies. Those Silver Lance Dragon Masters, for example, kill a 20/10 Lugh in just two hits. In such a case, Clarine would be taking attacks from and countering the enemies, while Lugh would not. 2. Clarine needs to build up her Anima Rank, Lugh doesn’t(should get an S as soon as he promotes). So when you have a weakened enemy that either one could kill, you use Clarine to kill it. So no, there’s no problem with Clarine having Aircalibur to combat the Wyverns in Chapter 21. Even if you have to put a little extra effort into her to get B Rank by then, which you don’t, the benefit would more than outweigh the cost; Clarine w/ Aircalibur does become literally perfect for fighting Wyverns(except in the sense that Aircalibur will eventually break). She can not be killed by them, can kill all of them in one round of combat with 100% success(even the Masters), and can counterattack all of them. No other unit can realistically achieve that, and to re-quote you:
The option to throw an invincible god unit into the fray is one I’d sure like to have against the most significant class of enemies in the game. Either way, Clarine doesn’t need Aircalibur to beat Percival at this, so whatever. In the event that she did/does need it, though, it is indeed there.
Oho, so B Rank Anima is a problem for Clarine, but C Rank Staves is no problem for other casters, despite the fact that they can only gain Staff Exp on the player phase and only get 1 WEXP per turn for it, while Clarine gets 2 just for attacking, 3 for killing, and can also gain WEXP on the enemy phase? i c wut u did thar lolol
You conveniently failed to name the number of casters who have any chance of using said distance staves.
Oh, Ratings, I’m glad you brought those up. Combat—Percival’s better for the Combat Rating? I’d most certainly question that, seeing as how he loses out to Clarine against the most important enemy in the entire game. To provide some more quotes from you:
30% of *all* enemies; however, we’re only concerned with the later chapters, the time when Percival’s actually there. The vast majority of the Wyverns are in these later chapters, therefore, during the time period we’re concerned with, it should be quite a bit more than 30%. Chapter 21 has 70+ Wyverns last I checked.
If anything, Generals would have a bigger Def/Res gap even than Wyverns, I’d think. So add those in with the Wyverns as things that Clarine beats Percival against. Two out of the big three which Clarine has the advantage on, including the biggest one. Looking over this, I find it extremely difficult to say Percival’s clearly helping Combat more, or if he is, it's not by a significant margin. Given the apparent horror of Clarine’s Mag, I’m not sure if that means you’re underrating Clarine’s offense, overrating Percival’s, or both. Tactics—Percival’s great for Tactics due to his move and power? So’s Clarine; she has the same movement abilities, and as I’ve pointed out, the power isn’t clearly in Percival’s hand. And then on top of that, Clarine’s spamming the Warp Staff to give other units a substantial Move boost(even a General can cover more ground than Percival with Clarine’s help). I’d think that’s handy for finishing chapters faster. Funds—Percival’s using a 50G per use weapon to fight those Wyverns, while Clarine’s using a 20G per use. Enough said. You also didn’t mention these: Casualties—Clarine can heal anyone to full Hp if necessary, or provide healing in increments of mid-20s or mid-30s if that’ll do the trick. She can heal one unit from a distance with Physic; she can heal multiple units at one time with Fortify. She can remove negative status conditions with Restore and boost Res with Barrier. She can use the Rescue staff to get units out of sticky situations. Best of all, the Saint’s Staff can be used to combine the effects of Fortify, Restore and Recover. Clarine’s Supports are providing much more significant defensive boosts than Percival’s. Definitely Clarine with this Rating. Percival has no answer to these things. Experience—Clarine has a natural Combat Exp Bonus, getting more for a kill than other units at the same level. Percival has no such bonus and joins slightly overlevelled, getting less for a kill than other units. Clarine’s also producing Exp with her Staves without detracting from other units’ Exp pools. Also definitely Clarine for this one.
Let’s find out. In summation: You say Percy’s clearly better? Percival has exactly zero clear advantages in the big picture. Clarine’s overall defense is superior. It’s been shown that the offense is by no means a “clear” advantage to Percival. What else does he have? Well, like I said before, nothing: combat ability is all he’s got. Clarine, on the other hand, has the following very clear and undeniable advantages: -High Staff Rank -Clarine’s Supports help more I’d like to point out that no attempt whatsoever was made to counter the passages on these two points from my previous post. Therefore, they stand. Clarine’s also producing significantly more Exp. You stated earlier that Percival’s more cost efficient, but that’s quite arguable unless Percival sticks to basic weapons like glue, while there’s no disputing Clarine’s advantage in Exp. So, from a(logical and unbiased, BTW) perspective of who’s “clearly” better, I’m going with Clarine. |
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| +Ema Skye | Jan 10 2007, 11:35 PM Post #6 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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With my huge opener, I detailed how amazingly useful Percival is in so many different chapters. It proved, with data from the game and using perfectly acceptable leveling of Percival, that at no point in the game is he lackluster. He's a top unit from his joining point and onwards, and has uses in almost every situation imaginable. Relevant.
No. Unlike Harken, Tate is not good enough on her own to be amazing, or even make it on the team. She's not good for any rankings really. She can dodge and fight mages, and that's really it. Miledy outclasses her enough to just outright replace her, and you only need to wait a very short time for her. Percival > Tate, so Klein wants Percival.
Igrene: 57 Evd Klein: 64 Evd :richie: You missed my point about Klein having much better growths taking him to higher statistics, and much better supports to make up for any losses earlier on. Percival's HP/DEF/RES combination is so amazing, as outlined in detail in my opener, that he can take massive beatings and come out alive at any point in the game from various assortments of units. Enemies will have < 50 hit on him in almost all cases, and yet I assumed all hits would land in various comparisons to show that Percival would survive anyways. Percival wins. He doesn't need chance, or even supports, to survive. His raw stats make him unkillable.
Igrene's supports don't exist, as I showed. She has a horrendous list of supporters. Klein has a solid list of supporters. Klein's superior growths + small level lead + much better supports > Igrene's better stats early on that get surpassed by Klein's better growths.
Anyways, I can give reasons why to use Klein. He's got an impressive list of supporters. His supports with Clarine are fast and good, and he's the best option if Dieck and Rutger aren't with her. He's got Tate, who is inferior to Miledy but still a HM boosted unit with some value. He's got Percival, easily one of the best units in the entire game. He's got more supporters, too. He's the best earlymidgame bow user since Wolt and Dorothy are garbage and Shin needs time to catch up, and needs supports to match/surpass Klein before promotion with an unimpressive support list. Klein brings a valuable and strong weapon with him. Yeah, don't see how he brings "literally nothing" since he obviously brings some good things to the table. What a weird claim to make.
My bad, it wasn't in one specific debate. I am indeed dead set on spamming this "trash", as you eloquently put it, so please counter it or I'll assume it a victory. If other casters > Clarine, Clarine shouldn't be getting used. Valid arguement.
Doesn't matter. If Clarine < other casters at her main function, the incentive to use Clarine is gone. Valid arguement. I'll discard the garbage magicians for now, but I will argue that the good magicians > Clarine. Percival can take blows and fight better, which is a significant advantage over Clarine. There's no way to deny this. Healing utility alone < Percival's combat and survival abilities, especially considering <insert healer here> can heal more HP and get more distance out of staves, and several are much better at fighting. Lugh, Hugh, Rei, and Saul accomplish the same thing as Mend Clarine...using Heal. A lot more cost efficient. More uses for less cash = win. Recover is ridiculousy inefficient for cost, and a rare staff to boot. The other casters can just heal 50+ HP with Mend, which is basically all of <insert unit here>'s HP, accomplishing what Clarine does using a much cheaper and more common staff than Recover.
As if Lugh, Hugh, Rei, and Saul aren't doing what Clarine can do using a cheaper and more common staff. They don't have to resort to the expensive and rare Recover, either. They can resort to just Mend in "dire" situations. They heal more HP and are more cost efficient with said healing, so they definitely win.
You act as if only Clarine's MAG is abysmal beyond words. HP: 34.2 MAG: 16.4 DEF: 7.8 She has three stats that make me cry. Not one. Percival has a whopping 0 stat holes. Good shit, Percy. *pound*
Actually believing Clarine to be clearly better than Percival requires insane healer bias or not actually playing the game. Unlike Harken vs Oswin, Percival doesn't have huge stat losses. Percival wins HP by crushing amounts consistently, ending with an advantage of a full 26 points. Percival has 8 Power over her. Percival wins by 10 in DEF. Clarine wins by a whole 9 in RES; hot damn, a magic user being a melee unit in RES in FE 6, such an unheard of accomplishment. Percival has bragging rights that he doesn't lose by 10-25 to casters in RES. Clarine wins LUK, hooray. She gets some avoid. Both aren't being criticaled and both hit everything fine, anyways. She beats almost everyone in LUK, just like Percival beats almost everyone in HP, STR, and SPD.
Rei's two blows with Flux = enough to end the life of almost any enemy, really. Clarine needs more hits to accomplish this, thus evening the Funds portion and causing her to lose the Battle Skill and Tactics portions. The staff rank is totally meaningless against Lugh. Lugh can fight very well, has fine supports, and accomplishes what Mend Clarine does while only using Heal, and Lugh can use Mend very shortly and then just heal massive amounts of HP without using such a costly and rare staff. Staff rank arguement = nonexistent against Saul. Here's something no staff and no supports can help her with; her distance with Physic/etc. is abymal, while other casters get more distance. Saul is healing in emergency cases with superior distance as are the other casters that manage that B rank in staves. Clarine's 2 movement boosts her range, but that often involves leaving her supporters behind and thus heading into danger; without supports boosting her avoid, her abysmal HP and DEF will now harm her tremendously, and her combat ability drops to nothingness. Saul can get good distance by just standing where he is, as can other casters in the lategame. Same goes for other staves involving distance = MAG/2, which are more plentiful and useful than one would think.
So Clarine has a miraculous 1 level lead over a unit that joins at a much higher level and often sees more combat, namely with bosses. Amazing. How much did you damage your funds/tactics with staff abuse for that one? Arena abuse? Realistic circumstances?
Irrelevant. The % amounts you showed are worthless. Since there are indeed 3-4 times more Wyvern Riders than Wyvern Masters, and Percival wins against those, he slays more enemies more efficiently. The Battle Skill and Tactics ratings don't care if you slay a Master or a Rider, they care about how efficiently you slay the enemy and how quickly you finish the chapters, which is what Percival is better for due to the numbers of Riders over Masters. He's also better against anything else. Clarine, in essense, wins only against a single class.
Assuming those weapon choices, yes. Overall, hell no. Percival has such a huge arsenal at his disposal that he can equip weapons more cost efficient than even Clarine's Fire, so he wins cost efficiency overall.
May as well be infinite, as those units don't attack in large enough groups to slay Percival even if all blows connect unless you are a fool and send him into a huge crowd alone without terrain/supports in Chapter 21 exclusively. Percival is in no danger. You act as if Chapter 21 is the only one with hordes of dangerous enemies.
Clarine fails hardcore.
Totally ridiculous. You forgot to consider that not all enemies are Wyverns, especially in the midgame and earlygame. If you read my first post, you'd see that Wyverns aren't abundant until Chapter 21, the lategame. Sorry, but Wyverns aren't the main course until the end of the midgame. She's killing maybe...20% of the things she attacks with Thunder, and probably almost 0% of the things she's attacking with Fire. You did a splendid job taking what I said outside of a debate, taking it completely seriously, and then using it for real in a debate without verifying it even when proof was presented in the first post. No, Clarine isn't getting that B rank by Chapter 21. She's not scoring kills against anything but Wyvern Riders and Armour Knights consistently, and they're not abundant enough to give that much combat, especially when most other units beat her in offense.
Lugh slays those Dragon Masters immediately, so threat = gone. Same goes for anything else <insert anima user here> fights if they're using anything beyond Fire and can DA. If building Clarine's weapon level was more important than slaying enemies quickly for ratings, then you'd be right. It's much better to one-turn kill for ratings, which Clarine is basically incapable of doing so. Putting that on the backburner to raise Clarine's weapon level doesn't benefit the team or your rankings. Enemies sitting around with low enough HP for Clarine to just waltz up to and kill shouldn't exist, since you should be using offensive powerhouses like Lugh, Rutger, and Dieck to just kill everything quickly.
It's a shame said effort is needed. That requires having Dieck and Rutger near her with full supports. As if they're always there and definitely being used with her, and the Wyverns are ignoring them and going right for Clarine. Having Rutger near Wyversn = fail. Dieck can use axes and has the STR/DEF/HP to handle 'em, so that's fine. Yeah, Clarine can win against Wyverns. I stated in another topic that, that is indeed important. However, you've done nothing to prove such, and have presented no real reasons that it outweighs Percival's combat utility for the rest of the game. Wyverns aren't an issue until way late into the game, Chapter 21 specifically, so Percival is winning combat for all of the chapters before that. The burden of proof is now being pushed on you. Prove what you said to be true.
By the final parts of the lategame? No. B Anima Clarine won't be happening until then, either. They don't need C. They need D. Heal <insert good caster> heals the same HP as Mend Clarine, and then Mend <insert good caster> is easily beating out Clarine in healing utility. More HP and more cost efficiency overall.
Saul Ellen Niime Cecilia Yodel Enough for you? Saul actually has a solid chance of being used, although the others do not.
As I stated earlier, you are a fool for taking my random out-of-debate babblings as fact. If you my first post at all, you'd see that Wyverns aren't even a notable factour until all the way at Chapter 21. In order to fight those 70+ Wyverns, you have to drag the chapter out longer than the requirement for the gaiden chapter to get Apocalypse. So, that fails. You're not going to be fighting all of them, and certainly not all of them with Clarine. You need a large and solid team to handle them within the time limit. Me being wrong outside of the debate = irrelevant. It's like counting me losing to Kashif in a friendly as something meaningful and then beating him 2-0 in a tourny set as just as meaningful, when it's clearly the only thing that really matters.
Wrong. Big time. Hammer/Heavyspear/Armourslayer Percival is easily outdoing Clarine when it comes to General slaying. He's easily one-turn killing them, and utterly RAPING them with a Hammer.
No. You're honestly just showing that I have played the game and you have not, since you've spouted a lot of nonsense.
"Spamming" an expensive and incredibly rare staff with very few uses? Ridiculous. Percival accomplishes the quick finishes without such. Hell, he does it well enough for an S rank using iron weapons half the time. Clarine's offensive power is crap against anything not a Wyvern, and I already effectively proved myself wrong about what I said outside of the debate with my opener.
Percival is often using incredibly cheap iron weapons that are more cost efficient than anything Clarine can ever use. Enough said. Wyverns aren't everything, I don't care what I said outside of this debate, when my opener completely proves it wrong.
Percival is slaying things and pretty much indestructable himself, so he's helping that rating enough. Clarine's advantage in EXP is conceded. Earlier you stated that Clarine will promote by Chapter 15? Rubbish. Clarine joins at level 1 in Chapter 4. 1 level per chapter is normal for a healer. She'll be healing about 8-9 times and get attacked a few times maybe. Saul will also be doing some healing as well. Saul being used is probable, since 1 healer is certainly not enough for the early game, he's your only solid light magic user, and he's a good unit on his own. HP: 43.4 MAG: 20.5 SKL: 23.8 SPD: 24.7 LUK: 7.1 DEF: 9.1 RES: 25.0 Saul (Ice) Yodel (Light) 40/+2 Dorothy (Fire) 20/+2 Cecilia (Anima) 1/+1 Ellen (Wind) 1/+1 Igrene (Ice) 1/+1 Yeah, he's certainly your only good option for Aureola and light magic in general, and he's a pretty handy earlygame healer, so he should be getting used. He'll always be healing more HP than Clarine, regardless of supports, and he'll be getting more distance out of the MAG/2 staves. Hooray. Lessee then... Chapter 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 8x, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 14x, 15. Clarine will be level 16 when Percival joins. I'm giving Clarine an extra level for when she uses staves that yield more EXP than Heal. Fair enough, no? You don't want to be using those expensive staves when you don't have to, afterall, and you have another healer with you, too. Level 16/0 HP: 21.0 MAG: 6.5 SKL: 11.0 SPD: 16.5 LUK: 17.7 DEF: 3.5 RES: 11.0 Not impressive, except for her LUK. She's not even that durable yet, and gets OHKO'd by some enemies. Her supports can save her often, but Percival doesn't need supports to rape. He rapes and survives without them, and just rapes harder and survives even better with them. Let's move on to Chapter 21, where she's supposedly better than Percival. Chapter 16, 16x, 17, 18, 19, 20, 20x, 21. She'll promote at 18, and then we'll be generous and give her 2 levels for the next 3 chapters since she'll supposedly be seeing lots of combat for her weapon levels and makes good bait from her avoid. Clarine will be 20/9, at most, by Chapter 21. 20/9 HP: 29.8 MAG: 13.1 SKL: 17.8 SPD: 23.7 LUK: 25.5 DEF: 6.7 RES: 18.8 Still unimpressive. She cannot use Aircalibur yet, either. Units she is losing to vs Wyverns: <insert decent/good bow users and magicians> She's not seeming all too good, to me. Even with her supports, she's not outdoing the other characters in offense. Let's take a look at how badly Lugh is crushing Clarine, and just how much Rei is winning over her against these Wyverns. Lugh will have at least a 3 level lead over Clarine since combat yields more EXP than healing, he joins a chapter earlier, and has the option of fighting bosses for big EXP gains. He also gains healing utility after promotion. Level 20/12 Lugh HP: 35.0 MAG: 20.0 SKL: 22.0 SPD: 21.8 DEF: 9.5 RES: 16.0 LUK: 15.5 Level 20/10 Rei HP: 36.5 MAG: 24.5 SKL: 21.3 SPD: 18.6 LUK: 8.8 DEF: 9.8 RES: 18.6 They'll obviously be supported with each other, both are the best choices for their respective Holy Weapons, both are solid magicians, and both have healing utility. Both are also outdoing Clarine against Wyverns. Lugh can bust out any Anima spell, including Aircalibur, and often OHKO the Riders and easily decimate the Masters. Rei slays the Riders easily with Flux and only has trouble against the Masters he doesn't double, which aren't all that common, thankfully, since they can have lower than 16 SPD and aren't even half as abundant as Riders. Yeah, they'll be outdoing her in offense and healing. Rei is healing 35 HP with just Heal, even. Go other good casters. Boo Clarine. Percival vs Alan and Lance This isn't as easy as Clarine vs other casters. Lance and Alan are indeed superb units and win supports over Percival. They have 16 chapters to grow before Percival joins, so it's a safe assumption that they'll be 20/1 and have two B supports. ??/5 Percival HP: 50.0 STR: 19.5 SKL: 16.0 SPD: 19.8 LUK: 14.5 DEF: 15.2 RES: 12.7 20/1 Alan HP: 40.1 STR: 17.5 SKL: 13.6 SPD: 16.5 LUK: 10.6 DEF: 12.7 RES: 4.9 B Lance/B Roy 20/1 Lance HP: 38.2 STR: 14.6 SKL: 16.5 SPD: 19.4 LUK: 8.6 DEF: 11.8 RES: 5.8 B Alan/B Roy Eh, they're losing everywhere but Lance's SKL, as expected. But they are both still two of your top units, easily. They've got supports to help them catch up to Percival, providing they're near their partners, which is very unlikely in the case of Roy unless they are personally escorting him to the throne/gate. I think they're power is better used on the frontlines, however. The Roy support is only viable in the earlygame and lategame. Percival's 4 level lead will slowly dwindle, but by then Percival will be gaining supports as well. For now, it's safe to say that Percival is outdoing both of them. He's got AS over Alan for quite a while, Atk over Lance for quite a while, weapon levels over both, 1 point of CON over both, and a massive combo win in HP/DEF/RES/LUK over both. Let's head to our next big checkpoint, the infamous Chapter 21 with Murdock. Level 14 Percival HP: 56.75 STR: 22.2 SKL: 18.25 SPD: 23.75 LUK: 16.3 DEF: 16.8 RES: 13.6 B Lalum/B Klein Level 12 Lance HP: 47.0 STR: 19.0 SKL: 21.5 SPD: 23.9 LUK: 12.5 DEF: 14.0 RES: 7.5 A Alan/B Roy Level 12 Alan HP: 49.5 STR: 22.2 SKL: 18.0 SPD: 21.4 LUK: 15.0 DEF: 15.5 RES: 6.0 A Lance/B Roy Lance doesn't have an AS lead, Alan doesn't have an Atk lead. Percival beats Lance in Atk and Alan in AS. He beats out both defensively by huge crushing amounts, again, as his combo win of HP/DEF/RES/LUK proves. He's still got that point of CON over both of them that allows him to use weapons like the Hand Axe and Silver Axe without losing any AS, and use steel/heavy weapons without harming his SPD too much. I think Percival wins. At the very best, knowing your ability, you could prove Alan and Lance to be Percival's equals, but certainly not superiors. Percival is clearly a unit that will be used and maintain a spot somewhere around top 5 on your entire team from the moment he joins until the end of the game. Clarine has no such guarantee, as she has much competition to deal with for the whole game, and some of her competition beats her out pretty badly in several areas. Go here to get visual aids for my next points: http://www.eaichu250.superbusnet.com/fe6.php Click "Sword Stats", "Lance Stats", and "Axe Stats" to see all the weapons Percival is capable of using, almost all of these right from his joining point. Click "Anima Stats" to see how many weapons Clarine can use, many of which she will not be able to touch until the end of the game. Forblaze is out of the question, indefinitely. Percival can use all three S rank melee weapons without trouble, Durandal and Malte fairly early, actually. Against enemy Mamkutes, which no unit can slay in one turn without an S rank weapon, he's better than Clarine can ever hope to be. Those Mamkutes can OHKO Clarine anyways and she won't be dodging them. Too bad for her, never using an S rank weapon besides the not-so-useful Holy Maiden. Damn, Percival's arsenal is huge. He wins cost efficiency with the basics, and crushes her in power with the rest. Percival wins combat utility by a huge amount. [size=7]Concluding Points[/size] - Percival joins at a high level with very high power. - Percival is great for rankings. - Percival's supports, although bad overall, still include the useful Lalum and decent Klein. - Percival is part of the best class in the entire game; high movement, mounted, all three melee weapons, and overall statistically great. -Percival is statistically flawless. - Percival, as a character, is noble and courageous, and a strong and charismatic leader. - Percival is very handsome. -Clarine has abysmal HP. -Clarine has abysmal MAG, and no supports can make up for it when it comes to staff use. -Clarine has abysmal DEF. -Clarine fails at fighting anything but Wyverns. -Clarine is an annoying, arrogant, little bitch. In conclusion, Percival > Clarine. He helps more with rankings overall, crushes her in offense, and other casters beat out Clarine in healing utility. There's no real incentive to bother raising Clarine and mucking around with her supports, relying on them completely for her use, when other units get the job done just as well, if not better.  The Knight General of Etruria clearly wins. |
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| C475_1337 | Jan 12 2007, 08:24 PM Post #7 |
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One serious d00d
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Well, you made the huge opener, so I feel obligated to make such a closer.
Proof? No, not at all, otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered to try and make the point. I did infact read your opening post. Specific enemy numbers were only given for one chapter; hardly enough to prove or disprove anything. Having not played this game, AFAIK Wyverns could only even exist in one chapter but be so numerous in that one chapter as to outnumber all other classes during the lategame. Or there could actually be no Wyverns at all in this game. I’ve got no way of finding out, and only the word of others to go on. If you have consciously posted inaccurate stuffs before, as it seems, then from a logical standpoint, I’ve no more reason to believe anything from your opener than your statements in the casual discussion. Both had the same purpose; to make your position appear to be correct. Regardless, let’s assume that you’re not simply fabricating false figures in order to put yourself in the right here, as you apparently were in the topic I’ve been quoting. lol, okay, so you’re done pretending that Wyverns > All. Good. In that case we need to actually cover the other enemies as well, instead of jumping to the conclusion “Clarine sux against anything but wyverns” without even checking the numbers, as you have. And in the future, I’ll remember not to bother discussing anything with you in casual topics, knowing that you throw false facts around in that section when there’s not even anything at stake. Chapter 15(my comments in bold):
Percival does indeed have the big lead in combat ability that you say he has……if he’s given valuable and pricy weapons. However, in that case he’s using weapons with around 50G per use against Fire’s 14G per use. His choices are to win offense and lose cost by using Killer and Silver Weapons, or use Iron Weapons in order to lose offense and win cost. Either way, not a decisive advantage. In the face of these facts, the idea that he’s flawless falls apart. Either that or Clarine’s flawless as well(or quite close to it). Maybe if the price of those high-powered weapons didn’t matter and you could afford to spam them mercilessly, but seeing how you’ve repeatedly tried to make a point of “Clarine Is Less Cost Efficient Than <insert unit here>,” the cost does indeed matter. For 16, 16x and 17, not enough specifics were given about enemy stats to draw any definitive conclusions. Assuming the enemy stats aren’t drastically different from those in Chapter 15, the situation probably gets better for Clarine since Thunder should become available during this time(while Percy already has A’s in his weapons). I’ll just comment that you said magic is all over 16x and 17, and Clarine tends to be one of, if not infact the, best magic tank(s) in the game, and is also capable of raising someone such as, say, Percival to Magic Tank status with the Barrier Staff(which isn’t dependent on her Mag in any way, BTW).
lol, did you even try to actually compare her to the enemies here?
Clarine > Percival for the entire chapter until you get to the boss. As you said, you need someone who can both take the damage, give it back, and move well to finish quickly, and it would appear that Clarine fills that criteria better than Percival. If only Percival had about 2 more Spd…… Damn, looks like the Nomads and Troopers outnumber everything else here, and Clarine is better against those. You said Clarine fails hardcore here, while saying Percival is flawless in every chapter; but Clarine’s clearly beating him in this one. :richie: I’m sensing a logical fallacy somewhere in there. Maybe you should have actually checked the numbers before making such claims. Chapter 19:
No specifics for 20x either, except the bosses. I heard some Wyverns and Status Staves mentioned in there, though, which Clarine tends to be handy against(moreso than Percy). No need to go over 21 again. It’s Wyverns. Oh, and that Hero from 21x:
Meh, who caers. Not even Percival w/ Silver is killing it, and Clarine will need two Crits. We weren’t filled in with data for 22 and on. The defensive aspect isn’t worth giving all the numbers and such for, in the sense that neither unit ever has to worry much about dying. I wish there were more actual enemy samples in here so I could expand on this further, but the judges are prolly tired of reading already, so meh. Point is: In all situations where real enemy samples were given, after actually running the numbers, Percival did not come out with a clear win in any of them. Chapter 15 is a mess that neither unit can claim a clear win for, and Clarine was beating Percy out against those Nomads in the Sacae Chapters and those Wyverns in Chapter 21(and to a lesser extent all the chapters before it). The implications of this fact should be obvious.
This debaet is not concerned with the early and mid sections. Percival does not exist during these sections, and Clarine can’t attack during them. Neither one will be fighting earlygame or midgame enemies; only lategame.
So basically, you just repeated yourself. Did you simply refuse to read my response? Apparently so: Also irrelevant. No matter how good Percy is on his own, if Clarine is still better, guess who wins this debaet? No unit can be perfect in the literal sense, therefore there is always room for improvement, and Clarine is an improvement on Percival.
lol, am I the only one who gets the feeling that this explanation is inadequate? To quote you later in your post: The burden of proof is now being pushed on you. Prove what you said to be true. I see no proof anywhere that Tate sucks. No stats or numbers of any kind were given, only a few short statements without backup. Just for kicks: 20/10 HM Tate—??/10 HM Klein Hp: 45.8—37.6 Str: 19.2—18.5 Skl: 22.6—19.0 Spd: 27.7—16.7 Luck: 14.2—16.9 Def: 13.1—10.5 Res: 14.2—9.5 Total: 156.8—128.7 So you want me to use Klein, but not use a unit who defeats Klein in……every single stat except Luck, and also has a far superior class? Right. ”But Miledy outclasses her enough to just outright replace her!” Oh, and it can’t simply be said that Shin outclasses Klein enough to just outright replace him? Srsly now. If Tate’s in play, she’s taking Klein. If she’s not worth playing, Klein surely isn’t either. Either way, Percival doesn’t get an A with Klein.
Oh yes, Klein would prefer to support the unit who joins later, supports with him slower and has a worse affinity 
I don’t know what stats you’re looking at. LvL 20, I suppose. I’m looking at the LvL 10 stats I posted earlier, and I’m seeing: Klein: (16.7 * 2) + 16.9 = 50.3 Igrene: (18.2 * 2) + 10.8 = 47.2 Difference: 50.3 – 47.2 = 3.1
Yes, higher levels than ??/10 help Klein more. By the same token, levels below ??/10 help Igrene more. LvL 10 is the middle point, so it’s the best stats to look at if you want an idea of the big picture.
Or perhaps you simply didn’t read: Igrene can indeed be argued as superior to Klein. You don’t want your Snipers to ever be taking hits, due to their lack of a melee counter, and they can bypass the counters of pretty much any enemy when attacking; defense is less important for them than for any other combat unit, as they’re never being placed in the line of fire if you can help it. Attacking is all they’re good for, not defending or countering, and since Klein gets almost no offensive gains at all from his supports, Igrene’s still beating him out in terms of offense. You also seem to think Tate shouldn’t be played and Clarine shouldn’t support Klein, leaving his only support option as a unit who joins in Chapter 15 and likes to blast ahead with 8 move.
Defense isn’t as simple as not dying. Neither Percival nor Clarine will generally face a significant chance of death, so that’s not a concern here. However, Percival’s actually taking damage more often, which means he’ll need healing more often. If your “offensive powerhouse” Lugh is healing Percival, he’s not using his offense to decimate something, which he could have been doing otherwise. Percival’s also much more susceptible to status staves than Clarine, and if enemy Mag is as ridiculous as you claim(25-26 in some instances), he’s definitely not safe from them. Well, you could just use that nub Clarine to Mend or Restore him, but who caers about her, her Mag sux.
The burden of proof is now being pushed on you. Another section in which I see a conclusion drawn, but no proof behind it. If you want to attack someone using the term “burden of proof,” you’d better match up to that standard yourself.
lol, Clarine, what a nub: There's no real incentive to bother raising Clarine and mucking around with her supports, relying on them completely for her use, when other units get the job done just as well, if not better. Who would want to ever use her? And Tate? Oh, she’s a nub too: Tate is not good enough on her own to be amazing, or even make it on the team. She's not good for any rankings really. She can dodge and fight mages, and that's really it. Miledy outclasses her enough to just outright replace her, and you only need to wait a very short time for her. How much are supports worth if they’re with units who, according to you, won’t be played? Now you’re defending Clarine and Tate as worthwhile support partners for Klein, in order to build the Sniper up as a valuable unit, but then you turn around and say they’re not worth using, so that one of Klein’s slots is preserved for Percival? Make up your mind. Apparently the universe revolves around Percival, to the extent that he can defy logic itself in order to gain supports.
And this is an incentive to use him, how? If joining with good items made a unit worthwhile, Isadora and Renault would be two of the best units in FE7.
Let me rephrase that. Literally nothing which makes him desirable over most other units.
That’s funny, I’ve been under the impression that you’re arguing “Other Casters Heal More Hp Than Clarine,” and to a lesser extent “Other Casters Deal More Damage Than Clarine.” But now it’s “Other Casters Are Better Overall Than Clarine”? Then why is Clarine’s low Mag smeared everywhere, while her skyhigh Luck, high Staff Rank, mounted advantages, cost advantages(in some situations), Support advantages, etc. are not even mentioned? When judging units, you generally weigh the advantages against the disadvantages, instead of pretending that one side has no advantages while the other has no disadvantages. I’m sorry, but personal biases don’t cut it. You spent this whole section talking only about healing, while you’re arguing that these units beat Clarine overall. Being so narrow since Clarine’s winning at pretty much anything else, except dealing damage, I suppose. Unfortunately, “Heals More Hp” =/= “Better Overall”(otherwise Saleh would be better than Moulder). So to sum all this rubbish up. The significant advantages of Lugh, Hugh, Rei and Saul over Clarine are: -Higher Mag(in Lugh/Hugh/Rei’s case a large amount; for Saul, like 2-4 points), so moar Dmg and heals moar Hp That’s about it. If there were anything else, you would surely have pointed it out, seeing how hellbent you are on tearing Clarine down. Clarine’s significant advantages over them are: -Higher Crit(yes, this matters; helps counteract the Mag) -Higher AS(yes, this also matters; the average 20/15 Rei can’t double the unpromoted Nomad sample you gave) -Better defense -Better Supports -Mounted advantages -Higher Staff Rank(‘cept vs Saul) -Doesn’t require money to recruit(vs Hugh) -Less expensive Tomes(vs Rei and to a lesser extent Saul) -Gains more Exp(‘cept vs Saul) All of which was almost entirely ignored. And you expect such a narrowminded argument as yours to convince me, much less anyone else, that Clarine is much worse than these units? For the sake of completion, I’ll counter the other stuff in here when I see disagreeable material.
Percival’s combat and survival would indeed defeat Clarine’s healing if Clarine herself could not fight or survive. However, this is clearly not the case; Clarine can fight and survive, while Percival cannot heal other units. This is a fact you’ve entirely disregarded from the start. Unfortunately, it is not a fact that you can wipe out of existence merely by pretending that it isn’t there.
Quite false. To do this they’d need 10 higher Mag than Clarine. That’s not even remotely realistic for anyone except Rei. ‘Course, these guys can just use Mend themselves, right? Well. Not at E Rank, which is what the first 3 start at. To reach D Rank is 50 uses of Heal. To quote you yet again: Enemies sitting around with low enough HP for Clarine to just waltz up to and kill shouldn't exist, since you should be using offensive powerhouses like Lugh, Rutger, and Dieck to just kill everything quickly. You’d pull your offensive powerhouses, Lugh and Rei, off the attack for a full total of 50 turns each, just so they can gain the ability to heal more Hp at a higher price, something they most likely don’t need to do?
Ah, so you bring up cost whenever it could work against Clarine, but you conveniently ignore the fact that you have to shell out big moneyz just to even recruit a Hugh with good stats, and Rei’s Tomes are quite a bit more expensive. :richie:
lol what? 50+ HP with Mend? Even Rei w/ Mag capped at 29 heals 49 Hp with Mend. Not 50+. Were you drunk when you typed that, or was your brain just not working, or what?
If Gonzales’s 60 Hp has been reduced to a mere 8, not even Rei + capped Mag will restore all 52 Hp that’s missing. Clarine and Saul are the only units discussed here who can patch this Gonzo up fully, using Recover. “but w/ mend they restore enough that he’s not in danger of dying anymore” And the same can’t be said for situations where Clarine is healing 3 or so less Hp than Saul?
Excuse me, one low stat that actually hurts her. Clarine has no trouble at all staying alive despite low Hp and Def.
Or logic.
Also unlike Harken vs Oswin, Clarine has an S Rank in Staves, providing a wealth of utility value.
If Rei attacks and Clarine attacks, both hit twice and use two charges of their tome, regardless of whether they kill or not.
So all Staves above D Rank(and for a good time above E Rank) are meaningless?
Lugh, Hugh and Rei have no chance of hitting B Staves(or they sure don’t if Clarine can’t hit B Anima). Saul’s advantage in Physic range is 1 tile for the majority of the time they’re promoted, while Clarine has 2 more move. I shouldn’t have to tell you that’s insignificant. Moving on……
Here’s another statement where I’m forced to wonder if you were just drunk or what. 20% of the enemies she targets with Thunder? Perhaps if all enemies were equipped with Hoplon Guards. But, they’re not. Clarine can score one Critical and kill most things, and her odds of scoring one Crit out of two attacks are greater than 20%; her Critrate is above that, for one, and she has two chances to Crit.
Of the enemy samples in this topic(and with the levels you’ve given for Percival), Percy can reliably kill exactly 0 of them using common weapons. Many of them he can not kill even with a Silver Weapon. Few if any units will frequently and reliably one-round the enemies in this game(their Hp is too ridiculous……); that’s not an excuse for sitting a unit out. If Clarine’s consistently killing against Armors and Wyverns, as you said, she’s not lookin’ too bad by such standards.
Weakened enemies won’t exist? To use your words, Totally Ridiculous. Even Lugh can’t reliably kill those Dragon Masters without Aircalibur or Forblaze; even Dieck can’t DA those NTs; even Rutger needs Crits to kill those Armor Knights. Enemy defenses are far too high to even think about annihilating them to the point where all enemies either have max Hp or are dead.
If most PCs could reliably one-round most enemies, perhaps. Seeing as how that’s clearly not the case, though, attacking an Armor or somesuch with Clarine isn’t a bad idea.
As shown in the Dieck vs Rutger topic, Dieck has about 2 more Avo and 3-4 more Def than Rutger when facing Wyverns. Not a significant difference. If one can face them, the other should be able to as well. And if having Rutger around Wyverns is a problem, having Klein and Lalum around them is a nightmare, as those two can’t even counter.
To prove what? That Clarine > Percival against these Wyverns? I have indeed proven that to the greatest extent possible. Percival’s combat utility for the rest of the game? Last I checked, you’ve done nothing to prove such yourself. You compared Percival to the enemies but took down no numbers for Clarine, instead simply assuming that she’s worse without even checking. The burden of proof is now being pushed on you. Prove what you said to be true.
A nonsensical rant which attempts to deny simple facts. If Clarine and Percival are attacked by a group of 3 Dragon Riders and 1 Dragon Master, Percival has ~14% higher odds of killing any of these three Dragon Riders, not each individually. Thus, his chance of killing one of the enemies where Clarine would have failed is ~14%. By the same token, Clarine has ~39% higher odds of killing the one Dragon Master. Thus, her odds of killing one of the enemies where Percy would have failed is ~39%. 39% > 14% No possible counterargument.
Another false fact. Did you even think about what you were typing? In 21x, their Def is 23 and their Hp is over 50, according to your opener. LvL 16 Percival(the level you gave) w/ Hammer does 25 Dmg to that and DAs, for 50 Dmg total. However, last I checked, you said they had over 50 Hp. It's rather tiresome to be accused of errors like this, when you make a statistical error yourself even in the process of condemning me.
What, you’d refuse to use the Warp Staff? Is there any reason why? Funds lost are compensated by Exp gained, and then the Move boost is quite handy. Why would you say no to a 7 tile move boost? To cover those ratings again: Combat—See above. Percival can try to win this, but in exchange gets crushed in Funds. Without Silver/Killer he doesn’t have a chance of getting any significant lead here, not going by the stats in this topic. With Iron Weapons Clarine’s beating him overall, again, atleast against all enemy stats available in this topic. His choice. Tactics—Also covered above. There’s no reason not to use the Warp Staff; that’s a significant mobility booster which Clarine provides. Percival has no answer to this; Clarine matches his movement range, and infact has a larger attack range unless Percival chooses to whip out 1-2 range weapons, in which case he loses in Combat. Funds—Percy can win this at the expense of losing Combat. Again, his choice. Casualties—Percival is slaying things and pretty much indestructable himself, so he's helping that rating enough. Clarine’s not doing any dying either, and she’s also keeping others alive. Clarine’s staff utility over Percival is a point that has gone unanswered for the entire debaet. I won’t use space explaining it yet again. Experience—Clarine's advantage in EXP is conceded. I’m seeing Clarine as the victor, not Percival. He can’t even really try to mess with Clarine except in two ratings, Combat and Funds. His problem is that he can use weapons that are cheap, and weapons that are powerful, and weapons that are ranged……but not all at the same time.
Bringing two healers along is fine, so long as you’ve got space. Pick one to be your main healer and let that one heal first on every turn; the one you’re not using seriously can sit around and be used afterwards if he’s needed. This way the main healer’s Exp gains aren’t affected and the second one is indeed there if you need him. Then when the offensive mages promote and gain staves, the second healer can be dropped. However, actually raising and promoting two healers together makes no sense in other FEs and makes no sense in this one. They’re detracting from each other’s Exp gains and causing each other to promote significantly later; so instead of one unit who promotes at the normal time, you get two units who promote late. That might not sound like such a bad trade, except that I could instead use one of those two healers’ Guiding Ring for an offensive mage, and get two units who promote at the normal time instead of just one, or two who promote late. That said, Clarine’s most definitely worth raising over Saul. Saul’s only notable advantage is a 2-4 point Mag lead. And I’m not even sure if that’s notable; it’s not significant when healing, and when attacking, Anima’s stronger than Light and Clarine gets Crit from her supports, while Saul’s supports give him basically nothing in the way of offense. Which reminds me. You attacked Igrene for having crap supports, but here you’ve disregarded the fact that Saul’s are also garbage, while Clarine’s are top-notch. His defense is fail compared to Clarine’s. Clarine is mounted, Saul is not. Clarine's Tomes are cheaper. Need I go on?
If you refuse to use the Warp Staff, perhaps. Seeing as how you’ve given no reason whatsoever for discounting it, though, it should infact be used, and if Clarine’s still unpromoted, it gives almost an entire level for just one charge. The rest of this section is not worth countering point-by-point. If Clarine > Percival, and Other Casters > Clarine, it follows logically that Other Casters > Percival too. Therefore, if these units are elbowing Clarine out of a spot on the team, they’d do the same to Percival. The logic of “Other Casters Are Better Than Clarine, Thus Percival Is Better Than Clarine” is inherently flawed, as I’ve explained several times now, and based on a false premise anyway(healing more Hp is not the only thing considered when choosing which units make the team).
Excuse me, you forgot “Staves.” Which reminds me. Read through this section again: -High Staff Rank. Percy can’t use Staves at all. Gogo: Heal Mend Recover Physic Fortify Saint’s Staff Restore Barrier Warp Rescue Hammerne The C Rank and above staves aren’t likely to be used by anyone else, therefore Clarine provides many unique and quite useful functions. Can Percival repair a Legendary Weapon back to full usage? No. Can Percival boost the Exp Rating while simultaneously giving a +7 Move boost to any unit? No. Can Percival up the Res of any unit by 7 and restore any unit in the event that they get hit by status staves(these two features should be quite useful considering how high you kept saying the enemy casters’ Mag is)? No. Big win to Clarine. A point that has gone uncontested for the entire debaet. Oh, here’s another one: -Clarine’s Supports help more Percival’s Klein Support gives effectively no offensive boosts. The defensive boosts are not as useful on a unit like Klein, whom you do not want to be getting attacked, ever(due to not being able to counter and not having very good durability anyway). Lalum can’t attack, therefore any offense boosts are wasted on her, and you want her to be getting attacked even less often than Klein, and she has an even easier time than Klein keeping out of the line of fire. Dieck and Rutger, however, are frontline units and make excellent use of the bonuses Clarine is transferring to them. The same is true of Clarine herself. If you hoped these would simply disappear because you wouldn’t address them, you were quite wrong. To sum it all up: You’ve said all along that Percival is “statistically flawless” and crushes Clarine as a combatant. The opener was a great shot at proving the first thing there, but the second one is what’s relevant, and you never did a single actual combat comparison between Clarine and Percival. I’ve done all the comparisons I’m capable of with the resources here and found the statement “Percival crushes Clarine as a combatant” to be flatly false. You’ve whined all along about Clarine’s Mag, and hyped this so greatly that now you’ve even attempted to claim that other casters are better than her overall based on this fact alone. Then you said Clarine shouldn’t be used because other casters are better than her, while not caring to mention that you’re defending Percival, who is not a caster. This argument phails; it is meaningless to the debaet at hand, and based on false facts anyway. These have been your only two points for the entire debaet. Both have been sufficiently discredited. I’d like to remind everyone else one last time, though, that points about Clarine’s Staff and Support utility over Percival have not even been addressed in the slightest. Fin. |
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| +Ema Skye | Jan 12 2007, 11:23 PM Post #8 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Have fun voting. This is easily the best debate that's ever happened. |
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MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH
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7:23 PM Nov 27
