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| Yzarc vs Inui | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 1 2007, 07:04 PM (516 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Apr 1 2007, 07:04 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Normal rules. I'm keeping Rolf, so post away. |
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| Yzarc | Apr 2 2007, 08:23 PM Post #2 |
Coxian
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Going Haar. Haar is a decent unit overall, hardly even deserving of Bottom Tier. Regardless, he's here, and I'm using him. In this game, I think pre-promotes are better, overall, than units you get at Tier 1. I say that for two reasons: 1. Exp is an issue in this game. Getting to 20/20 is possible with a small team, but it's easiest to do it if you use plenty of pre-promotes. 2. Weapon levels are indeed very hard to do wel in. It's possible to get an S and a C, MAYBE a B with a character you've had for a while, but it's so much easier to do it with, say, a pre-promote who comes with two different weapons, both already Rank B. Now, it's a good thing Rolf only has one weapon to wory about, otherwise, coming so late and relying almost completely on BExp for a while, he wouldn't get good enough weapon levels 'till a long, long time. What I just said was semi-related. Stay with me here. Haar is prepromoted. You don't have to waste your time or effort on getting him to level 20, 'cause he's already there. This allows you to spend the portion of the game he's not in on your other characters and then use him as soon as you get him without babysitting. Rolf, however, you have to blow a whole lot of Bonus Experience on in order for him to be "meh" at best. Also, you have to significantly babysit him on the chapter you get him. Beyond that, however: Rolf 20/20 HP: 43.8 Str: 22.7 Mag: 9.6 Skl: 26.8 Spd: 26.2 Def: 19.4 Res: 13.5 Lck: 19.2 Haar 20 HP: 52.8 Str: 26.4 Mag: 8.4 Skl: 24.4 Spd: 20.2 Def: 24.1 Res: 11.8 Lck: 13.3 Haar: HP: +9 Str: +3.7 Def: +4.7 Move:+2 Rolf: Skl: +2.4 Spd: +6 Res: +1.7 Lck: +5.9 Which turns into: Haar: HP: +9 Str: +3.7 (+more because Axes > Bows) Def: +4.7 Move: +2 Rolf: Accuracy: +7.8 (Bows are about = to Lances in Accuracy, however, so if that's ever a problem for Haar, he can switch to Lances) Evasion: +17.9 Res: +1.7 When it comes down to defensive stats, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Haar's 9 HP and nearly 5 Defense are going to be better than Rolf's ~20 evasion and ~2 Res. That is quite a stretch, however. When you consider that Haar will get a 15% bonus with either of his supports, that becomes a lot less arguable. Take into account Rolf's supports, and only one of them gives 15% evasion, Shinon. Now, I'm gonna assume you're not retarded and using two bottom-tier units, both snipers, together on the same team. Now let's look at offense. Haar has significantly more damage per hit, though he'll not doube all too often. He can still double Wyverns, Paladins, Bishops and Generals. Basically, the tankier stuff, that Rolf wouldn't do much to anyway. Not only that, but let's consider that Haar comes with a nifty little Brave Axe. That's not to say that he'll be using it all the time, but when it makes the difference between a kill and not, why the hell wouldn't you use it? I'm gonna let you take it from here. Point out anything I missed and whatnot. GL HF. |
  
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| +Ema Skye | Apr 2 2007, 09:28 PM Post #3 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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1. Irrelevant to Rolf, really. He has eons to level up and hits 20/20 without problems. 2. Also irrelevant to Rolf. He's going to have, at the very least, an A in Bows when Haar joins. He's going to S Bows easily.
Rolf isn't "meh" at best. He's got some of the best offensive statistics in the game, and can be a monster. Rolf HP: 18 STR: 5 MAG: 0 SKL: 8 SPD: 6 LUK: 4 DEF: 6 RES: 2 Rolf's Bow Mt: 8 Hit: 100 Crit: 5 Get's ~40 EXP per kill. Has 100 Hit on almost all enemies. Most enemies will miss him while on the sand. Doubles the weighed down axemen and armoured units. Is only one-rounded by the boss. Inbuilt Support Bonuses Oscar: 10% Boyd: 10% No, he's not having much trouble. Not any more than Mist, a unit that requires more babying since she's more frail and gains less experience.
Except for the fact that Haar won't be dogding or defending very well when he joins. Chapters 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 1/2 23, + Bonus Experience. 14 1/2 chapters + BEXP = Level 10 Sniper Rolf. Rolf is recieving a lot of EXP early on from killing simple shit, and he has BEXP to feed off of like anyone else. And that one retarded chapter is really four chapters in one. Unless you can find a good reason to not have him at that level, I'm using it. Haar still has a level lead, anyways. Level 10 Sniper HP: 37.8 STR: 19.2 MAG: 7.6 SKL: 22.6 SPD: 22.0 LUK: 15.2 DEF: 16.4 RES: 11.0 A Mist, B Marcia Oscar: 10% Crit Boyd: 10% Crit Steel Bow HP: 38 Atk: 30 Hit: 135 Crit: 46 AS: 22 Evd: 71 Def: 17 Res: 12 Crit Evd: 15 Level 11 Wyvern Lord HP: 47.0 STR: 21.0 MAG: 8.0 SKL: 19.0 SPD: 17.0 LUK: 12.0 DEF: 20.0 RES: 10.0 Steel Axe HP: 47 Atk: 32 Hit: 109 Crit: 9 AS: 17 Evd: 46 Def: 20 Res: 10 Crit Evd: 12 And no, we're not going to waste the Brave Axe on normal enemies. Unless Rolf gets a Killer Bow or Silver Bow? Hmm. So, Rolf has Haar crushed in all things. He's got a big offensive lead. He's killing a lot more. Sure, Haar has 2 more Atk per hit, but he's not one-rounding anything but slower Sages. Rolf has ~40 Crit vs everything, and he doubles everything, so he's going to be killing. He's also much better at hitting. If an enemy has more than 9 Evd, Haar can miss, and everything has at least 20 Evd by now, and more. Rolf isn't missing, though. In terms of living, Rolf is dodging a lot, taking little damage when hit, and is always near one of your main healers and the rest of the group. Haar lacks Evd, isn't taking 0 damage from anything, and has no supports yet. He's also off on his own a lot if he's making good use of his superior mobility. Rolf is thus the better survivor.
Rolf has effective Mt vs Wyverns, and easily slays them with a mere Steel Bow. Bishops are garbage; anything one-rounds them. Haar is indeed doubling Wyverns and Generals, as well as a few Paladins, but he is not one-rounding them at any point in the game without very strong weaponry. Rolf doubles almost everything. Rolf has a massive Crit lead over Haar. Rolf has a massive Hit lead over Axe Haar. Haar loses his edge in Atk when using an Axe. Rolf > Haar. Now, in addition to Rolf recieving those inbuilt Crit boosts, he's giving Oscar and Boyd, two very stellar units, 10% Crit each. Not only is his Crit skyrocketting, but he's boosting the Crit of two powerhouses. Oscar's offense is no longer shaky, and Boyd becomes better than Largo at killing. So what if Haar is bringing the Brave Axe? Even Titania outdoes him with that thing. She's going to be around Level 15, has full supports, and stomps Haar into the ground in AS, Evd, and Hit. Shall we get into Kieran? Or any other Paladin with an axe? Boyd? Jill, his partner? All of them are better with the Brave Axe since they'll strike 4 times with more Hit and Crit, while Haar will only strike 4 times about half the time he uses it. Rolf brings an amazing bow to the table. Only, in his case, nobody can use it better than him since he's the only one that can use it. It's a Prf weapon, and it's all his. All of it's good parameters and 45 uses. Haar is able to support Jill and Makalov. Jill can support Mist and Lethe before Haar even joins you. She's probably going to get a B with Mist, for sure. And if you're using Lethe, she'll support her. Jill may be full up already when Haar joins, or only have 1-2 slots to give to Haar. Makalov's only got Bastion and Astrid over Haar. He's going to want Astrid for sure, as they are both Paladins and stay together easily. As for Bastion, he is garbage, so Makalov can take Haar. Haar can have B Makalov and B Jill at most. Rolf has one more support than he does in the endgame, and has more supports while Haar is building his. Yeah, not much is going to change from their joining points. |
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| Yzarc | Apr 4 2007, 05:45 PM Post #4 |
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Coxian
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This is true. You can't deny, however, that leveling Rolf up to 20/20 requires a lot of exp that could be spent on better characters. It can't be denied that there are better characters for his Exp, as there are for Haar. The difference being, Haar doesn't need to steal exp to be on par, levelwise, with the rest of your team.
While it's not relevant to Rolf, it is to Haar and any of his other competition. I'm simply pointing out that he is a sold unit upon joining, given his ability to use two types of weapons, and use them well.
To even say that Rolf is CLOSE to having some of the best offensive statistics in the game is pretty ridiculous. So, he's got decent crit and slightly above average attack speed? His Strength is about average and his weapons aren't shit for dealing damage. Not only that, but he can ONLY use Bows, effectively taking away any ability to counter. Sorry, there are MUCH better offensive powerhouses out there, most of which require much less exp/babysitting than Rolf does.
First of all, no, he won't be dodging "most" enemies while on the sand. He'll dodge once in a while, sure, but he is, in no way, dodgy enough or durable enough in general to take more than a few hits from the enemies out there. And yes, they are likely to target him, due to a combination of his inability to counter and his low Defense. He's a common target, but he can't take all that fire without serious babysitting. Also, babysitting Rolf is the last thing that you should be worrying about, as a tactitian, on that chapter. I say this because of the need to get to the houses. You can't get someone to the houses to the west if you leave behind enough troops to keep Rolf out of danger. Also, he does indeed double armored units. He also does slim to no damage to them. I'll grant that it's easy for him to pick off a weighted down axeman, so long as you have some other unit weaken it, specifically for Rolf to kill, but other than that...
This only works if they are standing adjacent to each other. The likelihood of Rolf standing next to Boyd or Oscar is pretty slim. But, yes, he does get a nice crit boost in this situation. It hardly makes him more durable in the chapter he joins, nor does it make him use up less of your experience to levelup, directly at least.
Mist is, indeed, more frail. However, to that, I say "so what?" There's no way that you're suggesting giving Rolf bonus experience over Mist, because it's hardly deniable that Mist > Rolf all the way to the bank. Not only that, but how often are you gonna put Mist even in attack range of an enemy on the first chapter that she joins? Uhhh, never. She stays back and heals and that's it. Rolf, on the other hand, will have to move in to deal some damage, since that's the only way he can get exp. In doing so, he puts himself in severe danger. I'm glad you brought up Mist, though. Because I think it goes without saying that in order for Rolf to be more than a nuissance for the first few chapters of his existance, he needs Bonus Exp. However, the same also applies for many other character that have similar joining times. Jill, Kieran, Mist, Marcia. They all are good, underleveled units. Rolf? He's meh. He's bottom tier. He's taking exp from these guys.
Oh? Haar has 40% dodge when he first joins. Granted, that's not "godly" by any means, but it's enough to expect about a 60-70% hit from the common enemy. Considering his Defense is 20, it's completely reasonable to say he won't be getting raped by anything physical, including Archers, who, around this time, have about 10 Strength. (A Sniper will have 11-12, but they are rare at this stage of the game). Steel Bow has 18 Mt against Haar, meaning an Archer or Sniper will have between 28 and 30 damage against Haar. That's 8-10 taking into account his godly Defense. With 47 starting HP, even his biggest threat is hardly a threat at all. I also like how Rolf gets an A Support with mist and a B with Marcia, while Haar gets nothing. Haar can support with Jill and Makalov. Makalov's best option is Haar and Jill's is probably Mist. However, that being said, Mist's best option is, by no means, Rolf. She has Boyd, Jill and Titania, all great units. So, let's assume that Jill and Mist A Support with each other. That's reasonable. Mist will either A with Jill or Boyd, so it doesn't really matter. Regardless, for a case against Haar, let's say she does A Support with Jill and B with Boyd. In that case, Rolf is left with Shinon, Rhys and Tauroneo to choose from, all Bottom Tier units, along with Marcia, who can also support with Gatrie, Kieran and Tanith. So, let's go out on a limb and say that Marcia decided, to her own detriment, to give Rolf an A Support. I'm gonna hold off on stats and let you decide which of Shinon, Rhys and Tauroneo you're gonna choose to foolishly put on your team. Until then, let's assume that Haar gets an A with Makalov and a B with Jill. If you're going to insist that Makalov is better Aing with Astrid, then I'll insist that Marcia is better with Tanith. So, Haar is going to get 2 more Defense, 12% more Accuracy and 25% more Evasion. Before continuing on this, though, I'm gonna wait for your next post to say which of those three Bottom Tier units you're going to have Rolf B with. Until then, though, I'm gonna assume that Shinon isn't being used along with Rolf and that Mist is being used instead of Rhys. And why are you using Tauroneo again? Point being, let's assume that Rolf gets an A with Marcia and leave it at that. I also think it's unfair to assume that he's also adjacent to both of his brothers. That being said, the stats you have presented are clearly biased in your favor. I don't blame you, as long as they are fixed.
I wouldn't dare say to use the Brave Axe all the time. I, however, am pointing out that he comes with it and that it's there for him to use with much more ease than anyone else without wasting a turn to trade. ----TO BE CONTINUED---- ----Continuing---- (Thanks for the extra time, I really appreciate it)
Considering we're likely changing up support options, I'm gonna consider this a nonissue. All these stats will be changed when you admit that Rolf shouldn't get an A Support with Mist because Mist is better off with other units. Regardless, however, I can accept that Rolf will be killing things a bit more easily than Haar, mainly due to his Attack Speed and Critical bonus.
Rolf is absolutely not the better survivor. He dodges a little better than Haar (taking into account the fact that Haar WILL have Supports, contrary to what you may want to believe), but not much. Haar also has a significant HP and Defense lead against Rolf. And to say that Haar will not be near a healer is a weak argument in itself. Haar having superior mobility gives him extra options, but it doesn't mean he's incapable of staying near Mist or Soren. Nor does it mean that, when he does get low on life (while he's off doing his thang), he can't simply move over to where a healer is on the next turn and get healed. Keep in mind that Haar will rarely need to get healed, except in the situations where there is a Mage nearby with a long-ranged tome. Considering his movement, however, you can usually move him strategically enough so that he won't be in range of those guys. Considering they're his only threat, that shouldn't be a problem.
Granted. But now let's consider what happens when we put Rolf up against these units. Oh, he's way worse off. Even against the Wyverns (which he excels at, right?), he's doing only about 3 more damage with a Steel Bow compared to Haar with a Steel Axe. Against Generals and Paladins, Haar rapes Rolf. Swordmasters as well, considering Haar gets WTA against them (with his lances) as well as the fact that neither of these characters can double them. Offensively, we have concluded that Haar is better at taking down the bulkier units as well as Swordmasters, while Rolf is better at taking down everything in between. Wyverns are the exception here.
Unfortunately, Oscar's mounted advantage is better than a 10% boost to critical and so he will rarely, if ever, be adjacent to Rolf when they are attacking a unit. Boyd is more likely to be near Rolf but the fact remains that keeping them right next to each other for a 10% boost to crit is not nearly as worth it as it may sound. I'd give you this inbuilt support argument if it was like a normal support, but adjacent spots? It'll help now and again but, come on.
My point is that he's the one who comes with it. It's not a huge point, but I'm simply pointing out that, upon his joining, he comes with a weapon that hammers out his flaw in speed.
It's basically a forged bow. It doesn't stop him from sucking when he joins ridiculously underleveled, only makes him suck a little less.
If I was a wyvern rider, would I rather support someone whose movement fluctuates significantly throughout a battle and who can only walk on normal terrain, or would I rather support with someone who has the exact same movement ability as me? Jill will support Mist and Haar. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that she gives Mist an A and Haar a B. If Mist, however, decides to go A with Boyd, then Jill will probably give Haar that A.
Let's consider that all of Rolf's support options fall under one of two categories. 1. Bottom Tier. 2. Better Support Options. I'm going to go ahead and say that Mist should never even touch a support with Rolf. She's way better off with A-Jill and B-Boyd or B-Jill and A-Boyd. Marcia's supports include Gatrie, Kieran and Tanith, all of which are good, solid units. Kieran and Tanith share Marcia's movement range and Tanith is even able to fly over shit with her. I, thus, conclude, that Rolf's only support options are bad units in general. Now let's look at Jill. She can support with Lethe, Mist and Haar. Well, she's going to Support with Mist, both are great units, and they give each other great support bonuses. Now, Lethe or Haar? Well, the only difference between her Support with either of them is that with Haar she gets an extra 7.5% evasion and with Lethe she gets an extra 7.5% accuracy. It goes without saying that Evasion > Accuracy, especially with two units that have two weapons of the triangle. Aside from that, I already showed why Jill would rather hang with Haar than with Lethe. Both fly. Now it's Makalov's turn. He will, indeed, prefer an A Support with Astrid over Haar. The main reason for this is that they both will gain from this support throughout the game, as well as the fact that Astrid's other support, Gatrie, provides a pretty useless bonus. Regardless, Makalov will still give Haar a B. So, now we have a B with Jill and a B with Makalov. Jill and Makalov are both good units, sturdy and strong, perfect for a team with Haar. Even if he doesn't have a single A, he's still cashing in on 2 Defense, 10% Hit and 20% Evasion, effecitvely making him a Defensive Machine, as well as compensating for the low accuracy of an Axe. Rolf will be able to get an A and a B, granted, but the real question is: Are you willing to put even more Bottom Tier units on your team? Both Marcia and Mist have many better options, so you're really out of luck there. Marcia is best with an A with Tanith and a B with Kieran, no matter how you look at it. Tanith gives her a beautiful Evasion Bonus and Kieran gives the same bonus as Rolf would, even though it's not that good. Regardless, Marcia is Kieran's best B as well. And Tanith's best A is Marcia, while Marcia's best A is Tanith. It's a perfect combination. (Tanith's best A is actually Oscar, but no way in hell Oscar would support with Tanith) What I'm getting at here is this: Rolf can Support with Shinon, Rhys and Tauroneo. Shinon isn't very good and why in the hell would you put TWO Snipers on your team? Rhys blows, especially in comparison to Mist. Tauroneo: Lawl. Why would you even touch him? So, while you may have your kicks and giggles over Haar only being able to get two B Supports (with two very good units at that), Rolf can't get any supports with good units, and can only support at all if you put another shitty unit on your team. Thanks again for giving me time to get this post up. |
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| +Ema Skye | Apr 8 2007, 06:53 PM Post #5 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Yeah, instead Haar is taking up a spot that better units are already in, since your team is already full. And Rolf outdoes Haar easily, and this debate is about which unit is better, Rolf is already part of a solid team when Haar joins while Haar is garbage.
His competitors? Tanith's skill blasts anything he has away. Jill is significantly better due to vastly superior AS and having better supports. Marcia is better, even. So...he has two B weapon levels? Good shit? Jill will have A Lances and B Axes by the time she's level 11. Haar's weapon levels don't impress me.
According to his averages, he has one of best sets of offensive statistics in the game. He's got enough STR to land kills, more than enough SKL, and he doubles everything in sight with very few exceptions. He also can achieve the highest possible Crit amount in the game. "Decent" Crit is a blatant lie. He's got high SKL, 15% class bonus, and can get 25% from just inbuilt supports. Best Crit in the game/10.
All of the axe users will have less than 50 Hit on him, and the biased two RN system will then give him the edge. He can take a blow, and be perfectly fine. You should never send out an archer on the front lines; it's a retarded tactical error, and bringing it up is pointless because I'm pretty sure Marthmasta128 who thinks Mia is the shit and Titania is garbage doesn't read these debates. Haar can't kill jack without an effective weapon or his Brave Axe, and even then, he still fails compared to a leveled up Rolf due to AS, Hit, and Crit. He's garbage in all three areas.
Boyd also supports Rolf's best option, so Rolf would indeed be near Boyd. Both are offensive specialists, and Rolf can attack from behind Boyd. Both will get that bonus. And due to Oscar specializing in defense and tanking, and not offense, he won't be running off like a moron; he'll be with your team, doing his job of tanking. This means Rolf can camp behind him. There is the also the triangle attack to consider.
Rolf attacks from a distance, and you have other more durable units to stand in front of him. He's not in any danger, unless you are a moron. Rolf doesn't need much BEXP. He gets ~40 EXP for just a single kill, and can level up really quickly by scoring a few kills. One his STR and SPD are up to par, he's good on his own when it comes to killing. The same goes for those other units. And Mist can spam staves. Leveling up is no problem in this game; it's full of EXP. Rolf can get 100 EXP from killing one of those Ravens on the ship, for fuck's sake.
Haar is going to have the absolute worst Evd on your team when he joins, unless you're using a General. Are you playing Titania's Solo Adventure or something? Snipers are certainly more of a threat to him than you think, given how they won't miss have about 20 Crit on him. 20 DEF isn't enough to snuff out their double Mt from him being a flier. 60-70 Hit translates to 68.4-82.3 Real Hit. Haar = not dodging at all. Go him.
How the hellz could Haar have supports on his joining chapter? He's not Pent or Louise. Rolf is Mist's fastest support, and it starts the earliest. That > the later joining Jill that has other options anyways. I don't see why a Cleric wants a Wyvern. It's about as logical as Heath and Legault's support; worthless.
Nah. You haven't proven jack. Rolf is Mist's earliest and fastest support, so screw Jill. Wyvern + Cleric =/= good combo. Cleric + Archer = good combo. Mist can A Rolf before even getting a C with Boyd. Mist's support with Jill may take 2 less chapters, but Rolf's is faster due to having a several chapter lead. He will have a B with her before Jill joins. Makalov is indeed better off with Astrid if he's fielded; both are Paladins, and Makalov > Gatrie. Marcia isn't really better with Tanith. Rolf's offense >>> her offense. Rolf's also more durable. Tanith just has mobility. Big deal. Marcia will B Rolf before Tanith even joins. And hell, she can STILL have Tanith or Kieran while having Rolf at B. She's likely to B both Kieran and Rolf. Tanith joins mad latez. Screw her. Jill and Makalov aren't going to wait forever to support a garbage unit. They benefit way more from supporting earlier on with better units. There's no incentive for them to wait forever just to get an A or B with Haar. And when does Haar even get these bonuses? Mad latez. Nigga doesn't even finish his supports until like...the chapter before the last.
No. You can't force me to change my arguements by using logic as terrible as "Jill and Makalov should wait 5,000 chapters to support with Haar over their better and earlier options" since it's retarded. Rolf has really fast supports, and is going to have full supports when Haar joins. And since Rolf is offering better offense and supports, he's better than Haar. Rolf's offense > Haar's.
No, he can't have supports when he first joins. Sorry, but the game doesn't work that way. Rolf is thus better at living when Haar joins, contrary to your dilusional world where Haar has supports upon joining and Jill waits eons just for him. The numbers show that Rolf is better at living when Haar joins. Rolf = more durable.
So? He's doing more damage and has 20+ Crit over Haar. He's killing them way more reliably. Haar wins vs Generals, yeah. Paladins? No. Haar can't DA all of them, and Haar needs an effective weapon to kill them. If you're going to use an effective weapon on Haar, then Rolf can use a Killer/Silver Bow and still beat out Haar. Rolf can kill a Paladin with his significantly higher Crit, while Haar needs an effective weapon or a Crit, and his Crit is garbage. Rolf kills any Swordmaster with a Crit. Haar has very low Crit. Rolf can score Crits far more often, meaning Rolf is better at killing them. Haar is better at killing one class, and it's General. Not impressive.
Data From Chapter 26 Average Swordmaster Attack Speed: 22 Average Warrior Attack Speed: 14 Average Tiger Attack Speed: 16 Average Cat Attack Speed: 17 Average Sniper Attack Speed: 15 Average Sage Attack Speed: 15 Average General Attack Speed: 8 Average Bishop Attack Speed: 11 Average Halberdier Attack Speed: 15 Average Wyvern Attack Speed: 13 Average Paladin Attack Speed: 17 Bertram's Attack Speed: 22 Average Warrior Hit: ~90 Average Swordmaster Hit: ~127 Average Wyvern Lord Hit: ~100 Average Swordmaster/Sniper Critical: 25 Average Swordmaster/Sniper Attack: 23 Rolf's Atk Spd: 24 Haar's Atk Spd: 18 Haar doubles Warriors, Generals, Bishops, Wyverns. Haar fails to double the average unit of every other class, and gets doubled by Swordmasters and Bertram. Haar's Evd is also looking pretty damn shabby when compared to the enemies' Hit, while Rolf's is quite fine. Snipers and Swordmasters can Critical Haar, but have very slim chances to do the same to Rolf, if any. Rolf doubles everything but Swordmasters and Bertam. Rolf has a 30% chance of having enough Atk Spd to double everything period, while Haar has a 0% chance of accomplishing this. Haar is indeed bad. 
lol even without being next to Boyd and Oscar, he's got a 20+ lead on Haar from his SKL and class bonus. He can opt to use the inbuilt bonuses to make the lead even larger.
Rolf has more Hit even when Haar has WTA. Your point?
Ah, meant Lance. And when using a Lance, his Atk lead goes down the shitter to a tie or a very small win.
Unfortunately, Oscar's offense isn't that good and he should be with your group pretending to be a faster Lowen, and he supports units that don't have his wtfmobilityhax that might want him nearby. Adjacent is fine; when the boost is needed, he can get it. And when super offense is required, hello triangle attack! Rolf has so many options and back-up plans when he can't normally kill, while Haar only has one option; use rare/expensive weapons.
Waiting until the endgame for a support with a garbage unit isn't going to happen when Jill can support better units before Haar even exists.
Rolf suports with 1 unit worse than Haar, and it's Shinon. Rhys has more Atk Spd than Haar even with the weighdowns, and full supports when Haar joins, and healing utility like mad. Tauroneo is way better at tanking and Resolve > anything Haar has. Better support options? Sure. Haar's options, all two of them, also have better options that join way earlier. This is called "debating low tier units, where neither should ever really be used in the first place", and you seemed to have missed that entirely. And thus your support arguement is concluded to be worthless, as you're using logic based soley on movement ranges and "OMG ROLF IS LOW TIER!" instead of realizing that Haar is also low tier and that Rolf's options can support him very quickly and very early. You keep saying "Rolf wastes EXP" and "Rolf shouldn't be used" when this point is valid against both units. Rolf may cost more EXP, but he's not exactly replacing better units on an already large and strong team like Haar is. And a raised up Rolf is > Haar, so Rolf wins. |
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| Yzarc | Apr 10 2007, 09:49 PM Post #6 |
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Coxian
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Are you suggesting that Rolf ISN'T in a spot that a better unit could be filling? He's an offensive beast, right? Should I make a list of all those who are better offensively than Rolf? It'll be pretty significant.
If Rolf is part of a solid team, he's easily the weakest link of it.
Because most of his competetors for flying tank are good units: Jill, to be specific. However, that's not to say that Rolf doesn't have competition that's easily better than him. That's not what I'm denying. What I am saying, however, is that Haar comes at least somewhat up to par with his by bringing along pretty damn good weapon levels.
I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit on that. C is common for a secondary weapon way lategame, Jill won't have a B by late-mid game.
If you feed them to him.
Because accuracy is a huge issue. Gratz, Rolf.
His one offensive pro.
Granted, he's got good crit, with or without Oscar/Boyd. However, his crit isn't at any point reliable and if he's not RIGHT NEXT TO Oscar and Boyd then it's not even something you should hold your breath on. And he'll rarely be next to Oscar and Boyd.
The axe users have enough hit so that you can't rely on dodging and two hits will kill Rolf. You don't have enough units with enough mobility on sand to have Rolf secure from every angle and so you have to keep him back and away from combat. He'll be able to get a kill or two, but you HAVE to set up that kill for him to do so because he won't do significant damage. Also, some of those axe users have handaxes, in which case you have to keep Rolf completely back and out of the way.
How many people one round units reliably? Haar does a decent job, at least, of weakening the units that attack him. His job isn't to kill, it's to soften up the enemies and absorb damage, both of which he does pretty damn well. What does Rolf one-round?
Rolf's best option has a better option than Rolf. You may say there's a mobility problem, and I'll grant that they won't always be gaining from it, but these are probably some of the most useful bonuses in the game. At B it gives 1 Attack, which is always useful, considering both are good attackers late game (Mist with a Sonic Sword). It gives 2 Defense, which is also always useful, moreso than any other support bonus. And then it gives 5% Evasion. This support counters Jill's weakness to magic effectively and Mist's weakness to physical attacks. This is a godly support. Mist's A with Rolf gives 1 Defense, 1 Attack, 7% Hit (which neither need, with Rolf's skill and Mist's swords) and 7% Evasion. Dude. Mist gets more out of a B with Jill than she does out of an A with Rolf. Fuck that shit, she wants Jill.
Or he'll be off "like a moron" with Kieran, raping some face. Sometimes he'll be with the group, but most of the time, he'll be moving forward with his superior mobility skillz and helping you speed through the map.
Really, there's not.
He doesn't have enough units to stand on all sides of him and baby him. Not only that, but I'd rather my units be protecting Mist, who's better, than him. Getting two babies on the same chapter is irritating (Actually three but Marcia can fly away easily). I tend to like giving Mist some free exp on that chapter, but to do so, she needs to be near people that are taking damage. Who do I protect? The healer who is good or the archer who is meh? Well, naturally, if I send both in, I protect both, though it's a whole hell of a lot more difficult, I get a lot less done, and I beat the level more slowly. It's easier to leave Rolf behind on that first chapter. Maybe send him in at first to pick off a few of those first bandits while you still have a two space choke point. But he won't get much exp on that chapter unless your only REAL purpose there is to say "I'm going to level up Rolf!" which is a tactical error in and of itself.
What? Did you not read what I wrote? Snipers are dealing a little over 10 damage to him. Granted, that's a lot, but it's nowhere near lifethreatening. Unless there are 4 snipers right next to him (in which case, who's a retard? Haar or the player?) he'll be fine.
Jill has other options? Both of her other options are bottom tier. Jill wants Mist. Mist wants Jill. They both want each other. It's a little later, yeah, but Mist will be able to manage a few extra chapters, I think, considering it'll be giving her significantly more Defense. Also, Jill's (who's a damn fuckin' good unit) best support is Mist. Contrary to what you want to think, given that Mist is Rolf's best support, it's not all about what Mist wants. It's about what Jill wants too. I assume we're planning out who's supporting who from the start of the game, since we're smart players here. In which case, Mist will be able to manage a few extra chapters of not having all that extra accuracy (with her staves) I was under the impression we were done talking about Haar's joining chapter and had moved onto the endgame.
He will have a B with Mist before Jill joins if you decide to be retarded and give him that B without thinking about the future. Their B gives +1 Attack (useless for Mist at that point), +5% Hit (Also useless for Mist, and pretty useless for Rolf given his Bow), +5% Evasion and +1 Defense. Or you could wait a few more chapters and get a C with Jill which looks like 1 Defense and 2% Evasion. It's only worse for Mist by 3% Evasion. After that, a few more chapters and it's clear that her support with Mist is far superior, even if it means waiting a few extra chapters. It's. So. Worth it.
Which is why Haar and Makalov B Support. That's not arguable, considering...Bastian? Lawlz.
You're suggesting Marcia B both Kieran and Rolf? How many balls did you say you sucked today because I'm gonna suggest a different dose. With both of those Bs, Marcia gainst the following bonuses: 2 Attack 20% Accuracy 10% Evasion Now. Useful? Yeah, sure. It's there, it's a bonus. Can't really complain. Unless, of course, there is a better option. Which there is. Marcia drops one of those (Would she drop Rolf, the sniper who stays back (and who sux nutz) or Kieran, the Paladin who has equal move speed to her and actually GETS his nuts SUCKED. Probably by Rolf.) Yeah, needless to say, she drops Rolf and adds a GOOD support. Say, Tanith, who's Earth Affinity, which is easily the best Affinity. She also gets a support with someone who's more likely to be near her. Tanith doesn't JUST have mobility. She also provides 5% Evasion per level. What I'm saying is that Marcia is best with Kieran, no doubt about that. I mean, the bonuses suck, but Kieran is good and they have a good chance of being together. So why not? But why give her a double Wind/Fire Support if that's such a horrible support? It will waste four support slots on a bonus worth 1 or 2. I don't personally think that the Accuracy bonus is useful at all for Marcia, Kieran OR Rolf. Maybe Kieran with his Axes, but that's pretty much it. Other than that, all three of these units won't ever have a problem landing hits.
They're not waiting forever. Jill is getting a nice bonus from Mist while Makalov gets a nice bonus from Astrid. They get their As and then they support with Haar when he joins. It's foolproof. However, I'm sure YOU'D manage to fuck it up.
Doesn't need to finish them to enjoy them. Just needs two Bs. And yeah, it's late. So? Better than Rolf's NO supports. Haha, oh right. Unless you're using Shinon, Tauroneo or Rhys. In which case, you're an idiot. And you're an even bigger idiot if you use TWO of those three units JUST so Rolf can have his supports. I still maintain that Rolf doesn't deserve any support with anyone that belongs on your team.
Rolf has really fast supports. Supports that don't benefit the other end of them NEARLY as much as their better options. Mist has Boyd and Jill, that give her awesome attack and awesome defense, respectively. Marcia has Kieran and Tanith, whose bonuses are either equal to or better than, respectively, and both of whom are more likely to be near her. Other than those two, you have shit units who shouldn't be used in a game where you're using Rolf since using multiple bottom tier units in one playthrough = dumb.
1. I'm pretty sure I wasn't talking about the chapter when Haar joins. 2. Yes, Jill will keep two to three slots open for Haar and fill the other with Mist. It's either that or Lethe, who's a retarded Laguz, doesn't fly, doesn't deserve the DemiBand and overall blows cock.
What numbers? The numbers where Rolf is supported with Mist on A and Marcia on B? Bullshit. Let's look at the more realistic numbers, the ones where Rolf has no supports, since I'm assuming the player isn't retarded and using Shinon/Tauroneo/Rhys as well as Rolf. Rolf: 10 Sniper, Steel Bow HP: 38 Attack: 28 Accuracy: 124 Crit: 26 (+10 sometimes) AS: 22 Evasion: 59 Def: 16 Res: 11 Crit Evade: 15 Haar: 11 Dragon Master, Steel Axe HP: 47 Attack: 32 Accuracy: 109 Crit: 9 AS: 17 Evasion: 46 Def: 20 Res: 10 Crit Evade: 12 Offensively? Rolf takes the cake, no doubt. Defensively, however, Rolf's 13% Evasion, 1 Res and 3% Critical Evasion do not stand up to Haar's 9 HP and 4 Defense. Especially not when considering Haar will gain 20% Evasion, 2 Defense and 2 Res from Supports. Rolf does not stand up to Haar in durability, not when they join, and Haar quickly surpases him with the addition of Supports. He's a flying Tank, capable of taking ridiculous damage. He supports with people that have the same movement speed as him, meaning it's easy for him to always be gaining. I'll give you Offense, because of the Attack Speed thing, but ONLY for Attack speed. That means that against Swordmasters, Generals, Paladins endgame, Bishops, Wyverns and a few Warriors, Haar is better. In almost all situations, however, Haar is superior defensivewise, especially after adding Supports, which make him superior in Resistance and Evasion as well.
My point? Performance over stats. Let's say you're like an Asian guy and are really fuckin' good at math. Let's say I'm some random white dude and am alright. Now let's say we're given a random math test, but it's pretty fuckin' easy and we both get 100. Does that mean I'm better at math than you? No. According to that test, does it matter at all? Absolutely not. Haar's WTA gives him Accuracy enough to land hits. The fact that Rolf has a better chance of landing hits is useless if Haar still lands them.
So, you pick which one you want to use. That's the beauty of two weapons. You can use a certain one depending on the situation. Rolf? He's always ready to take down wyverns and nothing else.
Ike and Kieran is who he supports. He might come back for Ike, but more than likely, he's just out and about with the Kieranator. Sometimes he chills with Ike, but the chances of Rolf, of all people being right there next to him? Laughable.
1. Since when was money an issue in this game? It is a little bit, but you can afford a few Silvers for each of your characters at the end, easily. 2. Triangle Attack? When super offense is required, get Soren/Boyd/Largo/Stefan/anybody with godly offense to take down the single troublesome unit. It will only take TWO of them, whereas it would take Boyd, Oscar and Rolf to perform a triangle attack. That's a waste of Oscar's turn and a waste of Boyd's turn. Which is why she supports Mist and gets godly Defense/Res/Evasion boosts. And then when Haar comes along, she adds a little bit of Defense and some more Evasion. Jill's support with Haar is much better than her support with Lethe for a few reasons: 1. Haar > Lethe: Lethe is transformed sometimes and not other times. She's not even close to being the best non-king Laguz, and so doesn't deserve the Demi-Band. 2. Mobility: Haar has equal mobility to Jill, while Lethe SOMETIMES has the same movement speed, though she NEVER has the same capability. 3. Bonuses: Jill gets 10% Evasion, 5% Hit and 1 Defense from Haar. She gets 5% Evasion, 10% Hit and 1 Defense from Lethe. They're the same, numberwise, but 5% Evasion > 5% Hit and so Haar gives a better bonus, especially paired with the 7/5% from her A/B with Mist (depending on if she As with Mist)
I'm not even gonna argue this point because it's not even a point. Rhys and Tauroneo better than Haar? Even if that was true, why does it matter? We're talking about fielding Rolf and two other bottom tier units being the ONLY way for Rolf to not suck that many balls. Debating that Tauroneo and Rhys are GOOD to use and to team up with Rolf is faulty in and of itself because it's NOT debatable that Rhys and Tauroneo are bad. They're bottom Tier. As is Haar, as is Rolf. I think one of the biggest problems here is that we're not on the same page as to what a "Low Tier Debate" is. I'm not quite sure what it is YOU'RE saying, but I know EXACTLY what it is I'm debating. In a game where you HAVE to use either Rolf or Haar, Haar is the one to pick. Rolf is not because for him to be good, you have to pair him up with other bad units, while Haar doesn't have to struggle to support the good ones.
Indeed, I am not forgetting that Haar is Low Tier. I am recognizing that both Rolf and Haar are low tier. Neither are particularly deserving of supporting units like Mist, Marcia, Jill or Makalov. So why does Haar get to support HIS guys while Rolf DOESN'T? Well, it's because Rolf has competition for his guys (or, rather, girls) while Haar doesn't. If you notice, I never even debated that Haar's supporters should go with their better options first. I SAID that Jill should go with Mist and Makalov should go with Astrid. However, Jill's only other supporter is Lethe, who sucks and Makalov's is Bastian, who sucks. Both Bastian and Lethe are bottom Tier and they are both the only competition for supports that Haar has. Meanwhile, Rolf competes with Titania, Boyd, Jill and Mordecai for Mist. Mordecai is the only Bottom Tier of that group, who you could even possibly argue is worse than Rolf. He also supports with Gatrie, Kieran and Tanith for Marcia, none of which are Low Tier. All I'm saying is that Haar's competition for supports are units that are in the same Tier as him, while Rolf's competition are units in much higher tiers than him.
Oh. Rolf is > Haar, so Rolf wins? Oh, okay. I guess you're right, you should have said that a lot earlier, would have saved us a whole lot of time. Or I could say "No, Haar doesn't waste Exp because he comes at a high level. All he does is fill a slot on your team that may or may not already be filled. If it's NOT then all that means is the rest of your units get more and easier exp without it being wasted on that one slot. Then you fill it with a unit that comes a little underpar but still solid." Yeah, I think I'll say that. I'm not really in the mood to scroll up a few lines, copy and paste that little paragraph again, but just pretend I did. .... Okay, there we go. Yay. Okay, so I think I've already summed my points up pretty good in the body of the post. So, not really summing, as much as "I really, really don't want to type anymore." GG |
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| +Ema Skye | Apr 11 2007, 12:48 AM Post #7 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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At the point in the game he joins in? No. The team is far from fixed at that point. Haar joins really late, with no supports, and everyone is nice and leveled and he serves no purpose. Better offensively when leveled up? Sure, make your puny list. I'm not scared. There are far more units with superior offense to Haar's, at any rate. Rolf being one of them.
Lol this must be a joke. Of every low tier available, he ties Tormod for Best Averages. His averages > Haar's. When leveled up, the kid is indeed strong. Denying this fact is denying reality.
Jill is better at killing, better at living, and has better supports. All of the other fliers are better than him, too. Significantly faster, and better supports. Having two B weapon levels isn't going to make Haar suddenly good. He can't even use a silver weapon. He needs high level weapons to compete evenly with everyone else.
Steel Axe can be used starting at E, and it nets decent Wpn Exp. Jill will already have an A in lances, and should be using axes more as axes are better than lances.
So? Almost nobody one-rounds. When any of your units attack when Rolf joins, the enemy won't be dead. Even if it's someone like Soren or Ike attacking. Rolf can just pick that enemy off rather than letting it live, and he gets tons of experience.
For Haar? Yeah. This isn't FE 7. Enemies have SPD worth something, and have LUK. They can dodge. Rolf's chances of missing = nearly nonexistent. Haar, however, can indeed miss.
Yes, because having the highest Crit in the entire game isn't a pro.
Why? Boyd is a frontline attacker that supports with Rofl's best support option, and Boyd also loves that 10% Crit himself. Boyd rapes up close, Rolf camps behind him. Oscar is also a tank. He tanks and lives and lives. However, his offense is bleh. Rolf being near him helps him out in that department, and Rolf's offense gets even more devastating. Having more than 50 Crit on an enemy = reliable. He's killing way more reliably than Haar, at any rate.
Your point? The kid's an archer. He's not sitting in enemy range. You can check range for a reason. He pokes the enemies at a distance, scores a kill after Ike/Soren/Oscar fail to one-round, which they WILL, and he gets tons of EXP and removes a threat, both being good things.
Rolf does indeed one-round quite often. He's getting critical hits very often, and he's doubling all the time. Haar isn't. Rolf is one of the best units at one-rounding.
In terms of bonuses, yeah. Jill's giving Mist more. But those bonuses will be in play far less than how much they will be in play if she's with Rolf. And Rolf supports her more quickly.
Sure. He'll be squandering 10% Crit, a triangle attack, and his tanking prowess. Oscar...raping face? No. His offense is mediocre.
That's all you have to say about that? Figures. Your explanations have been garbage on everything but supports, because you're just grasping at one thing trying to hammer it home and win a debate, instead of debating everything. The triangle attack gives major offense to those three units. It's an option Rolf has that further increases his offensive leads over Haar.
Huh? You must be using one tiny team. You don't need to cover every side of him. You need to prevent enemies from reaching him. You can check their ranges. It's not hard to use your brain. If leveling up Rolf yields one of the better offensive units in the game, it's not a tactical error.
10 x 3 = 30. He can die in two critical hits, and Snipers don't have 0 Crit vs him ever.
Having a Cleric with a Wyvern is very impractical. You have a backliner healer, and a unit that flies off a lot. Good bonuses, but rarely in play.
Huh? We were still using the same statistics and parameters from his joining chapter.
The bonuses are rarely in play, though. Mist and Rolf are always near each other. Jill and Mist are not often near each other.
Sure, he can have B Makalov.
That's like...the opposite logic of your other arguement. You say Mist wants Jill since Jill gives better bonuses, but Kieran is giving craptastic bonuses and Marcia wants him anyways? Well, whatever. The sad fact is, even with supports, Rolf is better than Haar.
No. I'd rather have full bonuses for 10+ chapters than not have them for that long and get those same bonuses in the endgame.
And that arguement is maaaad weak. You're shitting on the fact that he's low tier, and nothing else. His supports are fast and they are practical in terms of mobility and unit jobs. That is undeniable.
1. We were still using those exact same statistics and parameters, though. 2. No, she won't keep three entire slots open for a garbage unit like Haar. She'll sooner A Mist than wait for Haar, regardless of how impractical it is, since Mist > Haar and the bonuses will exist for muuuuuuuuuuuch longer.
Roflmao... Your support arguement is garbage. You just go on and on about how Rolf is low tier, and ignore how insanely impractical Mist x Jill can be, and how Jill isn't going to wait forever to have Haar on the field to support him, and how Rolf's supports are really fast and practical. So, no. Rolf will have a few supports. He's going to have some. He's got a lot of options, and several of those units will be fielded in a playthrough. He's gonna have some supports, while Haar will have jack shit. Only for Atk Spd? Lol no. He's wrecking Haar in Crit big time. He gets +20 sometimes, not +10. Two good inbuilt bonuses. He's also kicking his ass big time in Hit. Missing .01% of the time > missing sometimes. Vs Swordmaster: Neither one-rounds without a Crit. Rolf has significantly more Crit. Vs Paladins: Haar doesn't double over half of the time, and both need a Crit for a kill. Rolf has significantly more Crit. Vs Bishops: lol they are garbage, reminds me of FE 6's Bishops. Vs Wyverns: Lol what the fuck? Haar needs a Crit to kill, and Rolf doesn't. Vs Warriors: Both need Crits to kill. Rolf has significantly more Crit. Lol wut?
Except that Haar will rarely have 100 Hit, while Rolf almost always has 100 Hit. If Haar had 100 Hit all the time, you'd be right. But, he doesn't.
Wyverns Pegasi Ravens
Well, Oscar makes a good shield for Rolf early on. And later on, Rolf makes the better killer to assist Oscar. Both of our methods are logical enough.
1. Which isn't saving Haar. Rolf with silver weapons > Haar with silver weapons, still. 2. Not if both of them attack first, duh. Rolf has this triangle attack option, while Haar does not.
No. 1. Lethe can double things. Lethe can dodge. Haar fails at both of these things. And since both need criticals to kill, Lethe having two shots at landing a higher Crit chance makes her offense > Haar's. 2. Conceded. 3. Partially conceded. The bonuses are better, but it's better to get Lethe's bonuses for a very long time than have Haar's for only the endgame.
No. Bottom tier is Bastion, Lucia, Elincia, and Sothe. You know, units that just can't be good even after supports/leveling. They just suck balls, always. None of the units you mentioned are THAT bad. All are usable and >>> the enemies. Rolf can support Mist Marcia Tauroneo Rhys Shinon A much larger list than Haar's. Rolf's getting some supports, at least. You can't say you're going to avoid using all of those units, or that Rolf will get no supports at all with them if they're used.
How so? If Rolf outdoes Haar, then choosing him means you made the better choice. Without supports being counted, Rolf wins anyways. And he's going to have SOME supports. So, he's winning. Haar doesn't get his supports until maaaad late.
Hey, good points. But Rolf's list is waaay bigger. It's 5 to 2. Rolf's going to be getting something out of a big list like that, given how it's one of the biggest lists in the game.
When Rolf is given that EXP, he's just as good as everyone. He has a really solid set of averages and a lot of supports. I'm going to write down their averages, but I'm going to be using the percentages to give more accurate stats. Rolf has a 57% chance of having more than 26 SPD, so logic dictates it should be written down as at least 27. He has a 44% chance of capping, even. HP: 44 STR: 23 MAG: 10 SKL: 27 SPD: 27 LUK: 19 DEF: 19 RES: 14 MOV: 7 Bows, 15% Crit HP: 53 STR: 26 MAG: 8 SKL: 24 SPD: 20 LUK: 13 DEF: 24 RES: 12 MOV: 9 Axes, Lances HP: Haar wins by 11 points. Good job. STR: Haar wins by 3 whole points. Big strong Wyvern man barely beats a little boy. SKL: Rolf by 3. More accurate, and uses more accurate weapons. SPD: Rolf by 7. Waaay faster. Doubles way more and dodges way more. LUK: Rolf by 6. A tad more Evd and Hit, and 6 more Crit Evd. DEF: Haar has a 5 point lead. Not bad at all. RES: Rolf wins by 2 points. Not too significant. MOV: Haar is more mobile. Wpns/Skills: Both are even. Offense overall: Rolf, duh. Kicks his ass in AS and Crit and wins Hit. Haar only has a meh Atk lead. Defense overall: 11 HP + 5 DEF vs 20 Evd + 2 RES + 6 Crit Evd. I guess it's debatable. Rolf is dodging more, not getting criticaled, and takes less damage from magicians. Haar's just more tanky when both get hit, and has an HP safety cushion. There are also bands to consider. Rolf can get +2 HP and +2 STR from the Fighter Band, while Haar only gets a 45% chance of gaining 1 more point in a stat he uses a band on. Rolf can use the Fighter Band to decrease Haar's HP lead and increase his own offensive lead. Rolf is as cute as a little hamster, and gets used for PsychoSwordLady/Asvel's art.  omg adorable + drawn by the best person in the world. In conclusion... Rolf rapes Haar in offense due to vastly superior Crit and AS, and superior Hit. That's my biggest point, and it still stands. You've done nothing but spew wrong nonsense to dispute this. |
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| +Ema Skye | Apr 11 2007, 08:47 AM Post #8 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Needs votage now. |
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7:41 PM Nov 27
