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| Nintendfan vs Serra | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 2 2007, 10:36 PM (232 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Apr 2 2007, 10:36 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Normal rules. |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Nin-Finity | Apr 9 2007, 12:48 PM Post #2 |
Nintend-Fan
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Rhys vs. Mordecai, eh? Let’s have a good debate, Serra. First, we have Rhys. Rhys is one of the most useful and unique characters in FE9, as I’m about to show you. For starters, his hair is orange. ORANGE. You only recruit 3 people with orange hair, therefore, it clearly must be awesome. On the other hand, you recruit 8 people with blue hair, including the main lord. Lame. As meaningless as that is, I really wanted to say that. Moving on to the serious portion of the debate… Rhys arrives in chapter 2. When you count the number of chapters each character is available for, Rhys comes in 5th. He only loses to Ike, Titania, Oscar, and Boyd. Counting each part of chapter 17 as a battle, Rhys is available for 29 battles. Yeah, that’s a lot. Clearly somebody available for that long MUST be useful, right? Mordecai, on the other hand, arrives in chapter 10, 8 chapters later. Mordecai is only there for 22 battles, plus he shows up in chapter 9 as a partner unit that steals your EXP. Rhys beats Mordecai in availability. The reality of low-tier debates is that no matter which unit you’re defending, you probably would never actually use him/her. Generally, there are better units out there for you to choose from. However, out of all the low-tier units, Rhys is probably one of the most likely to actually be used. Why? Because he faces competition in one unit, and one unit alone: a 10-year-old girl. Mist arrives several chapters after Rhys, and several levels lower. By chapter 9, Rhys has a solid position on your team, because you’ve been using him for 7 chapters. Why would you bother to replace him with an underleveled unit that will be locked to a terrible weapon upon promotion? Rhys has a fair chance of actually seeing use after Chapter 9. Mordecai, however, does not. Right off the bat, he is competing with Lethe, who is arguably better than Mordecai. As the game progresses, Mordecai will be competing with his boss, his boss’s boss, his boss’s boss’s boss… and an ex-slave. (AKA Lethe, Ranulf, Giffca, and Muarim) Out of all these units, Mordecai is probably the worst one, so… why use him? The answer is simple: don’t. Rhys beats Mordecai in likelihood of being used. Starting right when you get him, Rhys is a utility god. Not even Titania can compare to his usefulness in the earlygame. There’s a simple reason for that: Nobody else can do what Rhys does. In chapters 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8, Rhys is the only healer available. Having a healer on your team is a necessity for succeeding in Fire Emblem. Therefore, Rhys is an absolute necessity in the earlygame. Not even Titania’s Jeigan utility can compare to Rhys’s healing abilities, because Titania isn’t the only Jeigan-esque unit available to you. If you want, you can use Shinon as a Jeigan instead of Titania. Who can heal in the earlygame besides Rhys? That’s right, nobody. What unique function does Mordecai perform when he becomes available? Well… he doesn’t. Everything he does, Lethe can also do. This severely limits Mordecai’s utility. Rhys beats Mordecai in utility. That’s it for my first post. Your turn, Serra. |
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| Davidof | Apr 10 2007, 05:42 AM Post #3 |
Dutchie
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Indeed, that's the plan.
I'd like to see you try >_>
Indeed pointless, but Mordecai's hair is quite the awesome blue. Easily beats Rhys' stupid orange >_>
Yes, his joining time is good. You know, being the earlygame healer does that.
This is... retarded. Joining time has NOTHING to do with useability. Rhys is crap.
Steal your Exp? Have you never heard of Direct? He wont get a single battle unless you want him to.
No, no he isnt. Not when said 10-year beats him, AND has the BK fight utility (Since, youknow, Nasir>Ena) And he has more competition. Like, every Sage after they promote safe Callil (Bastian I forget, but he's crap, so meh.)
True.
Bull. It's called filler. But you can do those chapters without Rhys just fine.
Because she's good? Rhys suffers from crap AS with his crap for Str and Spd. His defences are lacking with crappy Def and sub-par Avd. All he has is Mag. He's like a Magic General. Which is useless. Mist's flaws are bad offence, which a Boyd support solves, and bad Def, which a Mordecai support fixes up nicely. She also has a Move lead, Move Again, and as mentioned before, the BK fight utility. She can heal plenty with a Mend, and Rhys' Physic range lead is pretty much negated by her Move. However, this is not Mist vs. Rhys, though if you want to keep bringing it up, I'll gladly counter it >_>
No she isnt. Mordecai>Lethe. Lethe's Atk is crap. Theyre about equal early-game, but Lethe's crap affinity makes her less desirable then Mordecai.
All of these better? Pfft. Ranulf beats him, yes, but Lethe? Hell no. Muarim doesnt exactly win much either. Giffca is only there for part of one chapter, and one of the Big Three. He's one of the best, if not THE best Laguz in the game. So, while trouncing Mordecai (and lots of others), it's hardly much of an issue.
No he doesnt.
Hardly. He's a healer. This does not make him needed. Vulneraries can do what he does, albeit a bit less efficiently.
Not in the least bit, no. He just makes your life easier, as does Titania. Needed he is not.
Hardly. Shinon lacks Move again, lacks range 1 attacks. He can lure. That's it. Though Titania isnt a Jeigan. She's an Oifaye. Jeigans with good stats. But I state again, Rhys isnt needed. He makes your life easier. That's it. No more. Not needed. Not 'massive utility'.
Yes, and right before Mordecai and Lethe join, Mist does, severely limiting Rhys' utility. Your point is? Either way, Mordecai beats Lethe. By alot, thanks to Lethe's shit for Str and as such Atk, coupled with a shitty affinity. Mist beats Rhys. This is far more of a problem for Rhys then it is for Mordecai. Kthx.
Fraid not. When he joins, Mordecai is the best lurer around. Titania might kill, and steals exp at any rate, while untransformed Mordecai does neither, while still boasting impressive survivability. Which his supports only increase. Rhys has failure survivability, low AS to go with it, and heavy, expensive magic (though the expensive part isnt that much of a big deal). So Mordecai is a tank, and one of the best lures around, where-as Rhys is a fragile as hell healer, beaten by his competition, who joins right before he does. MORDECAI wins utility.
Indeed. So, we have the inferior healer vs.the great tanky Leguz that is Mordecai. Hmm.... But let's give compare some supports before I go: Mordecai: Mist, the good healer. Arguably wants Mordecai. Ranulf, the best non Big Three Laguz. Quite likely will support Mordecai. Stefan, probably the best Swordmaster. WILL A Mordecai, due to no other options. Ulki, the crappy Hawk ;>_> Wont be fielded, but wouldnt mind the support. Ilyana, the bad mage. Probably wont be fielded, but quite the good support. So that's THREE good options. W1n. He's quite likely to get full supports even. Wow, spiffy. Rhys: Kieran, the best Pally. Marcia wants him more, and actually keeps up with him. A Oscar is implied, obviously. Rolf: The Archer. The best Archer, but he's an Archer. But Marcia and Mist like him aswell, and he likes them too. He has a chance, but it's not that great. Titania: He might actually get that one, but the bonusses arent all that good. Titania wants Mist more. Ulki: Crappy Hawk. He could get that one, but we're not fielding him. Mia: Crappy Swordmaster. He can get it, Mia would like it, but she's not worth fielding. So.. Mordecai likely will have a full roster, whereas Rhys is quite debatable.... Not looking too good for our friend, now does it? >_> |
Previously known as: Serra, Hakato, Hakado, Dorgie Poo, Pearl Fey, Kallen and Sailor Moon  HakaDSie>Kovutachi
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| Nin-Finity | Apr 13 2007, 02:42 PM Post #4 |
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Nintend-Fan
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…no. Orange hair > you.
Say what? Joining time is incredibly influential in calculating usability. I mean, you aren’t useful in the slightest if you aren’t there! Saying that joining time has nothing to do with usability says that Giffca is the most useful unit in the game. And do you honestly believe that? I doubt it.
(Bastian uses Knives) The key part of your sentence there was “after they promote”. Soren, Ilyana, and Tormod won’t be promoting until maybe… chapter 16, putting it generously. (And really, that’s only realistic for Soren, maybe chapter 18 for Ilyana, and well… Tormod just needs loads of BEXP) Are you suggesting not using a healer until chapter 16, just so you can have a Sage as your main healer? No, you want to be using Rhys to heal your party before Soren/Ilyana/Tormod promotes, and probably afterwards too, since he’ll be promoting when the Sages do anyway. After raising him all those levels, there really isn’t a purpose served by just benching him for the rest of the game. So do Soren/Ilyana/Tormod provide much competition in the Healing department? I think not.
Yeah, I doubt you could pull that off. I know I can’t. Besides, even if it is possible, there’s no reason not to use Rhys. The first 9 chapters have set rosters, so Rhys is coming whether you like it or not. So just use him!
He’s got the fifth-highest MAG (or STR for physical units) in the game, losing only to Boyd, Largo, Tibarn, and Giffca. Impressive? You bet. Effective? You bet. Rhys is doing more damage with a single attack than most units are doing with two attacks. When Rhys doubles, he’s usually doing enough damage to 2HKO pretty much any melee enemy, and with his massive RES, he doesn’t need to worry about magical units. Plus there’s the immense healing utility. At 20/20, Rhys is healing nearly 40 HP with a HEAL STAFF. Useful? Definitely.
What Mist heals with Mend, Rhys heals with Physic. What Mist heals with Physic, Rhys heals with Heal. Mist’s MOV advantage doesn’t matter when Rhys has access to ranged tomes and Physic staves.
Here are Lethe and Mordecai when they first arrive:
Lethe is only losing in STR by 3, which isn’t too bad, and she makes up for it with superior SKL and SPD. Mordecai will have difficulty hitting reliably and doubling enemies, so in the long run, Lethe is dealing more damage (and scoring more critical hits) and fighting more effectively. In the DEF department, Mordecai wins in DEF and HP, but Lethe has leads in RES and evasion, which are important because the two of them are weak against Fire magic. Lethe is more survivable against mages, and is dodging more attacks than Mordecai. Overall, Lethe is doing better.
Ranulf beats Mordecai, as we agree. I have just shown that Lethe is better than Mordecai when the two of them first arrive. So she beats Mordecai until Muarim arrives. As for Mordecai vs. Muarim… A fair estimate for Mordecai’s level at chapter 16 is 5ish, if you even bothered to use him. So, lvl 5 Mordecai against base Muarim:
Not only does Muarim have a solid level lead, but he’s either on par with Mordecai, or ahead of him, in every single stat. The two have similar STR, but Muarim easily beats Mordecai in SKL and SPD, or Muarim is better offensively. Defensively, it’s pretty much a tie, except Muarim has more Evasion due to his large SPD lead, so he wins there too. Muarim beats Mordecai. Giffca beats Mordecai. So, even if you use him despite the 3 better units I’ve just shown, he is rendered useless in the final chapter.
Yeah he does.
Yeah, less efficiently. Therein lies the purpose of a healer. 1. Vulneraries only heal 10 HP, which is rarely enough, especially later in the game. Rhys starts off healing 18 HP at level 2 when you first get him, and ends up healing 39 HP WITH A HEAL STAFF. 2. Vulneraries don’t grant EXP upon use. Rhys gets EXP for healing. 3. Vulneraries only have 3 uses, and take up a slot in a unit’s inventory. Rhys’s Heal staff only affects his own inventory, not the injured unit’s. 4. Using a Vulnerary forces the injured unit to waste their turn. Rhys can heal a unit, and they can move afterwards. (Or before Rhys heals them, if you’d like) Rhys >>> Vulneraries
Needed he is, unless easy mode you are on.
That doesn’t make Shinon any less of a good replacement for her. We could sit here and argue Oifaye vs. Jeigan all day, but it doesn’t mean anything in the perspective I used it in.
Going on using that argument is just stupid, because you and I both know that you will be using Rhys throughout the earlygame. Not only is he incredibly useful, but there’s no disadvantage to using him, and YOU’RE FORCED TO BRING HIM ANYWAY. So use him.
My point is that Mordecai is outclassed the moment he joins. Rhys isn’t outclassed until after 7 chapters of guaranteed use, if at all. Rhys > Mordecai in that aspect.
Mordecai having a STR lead of 3 doesn’t mean Lethe’s STR is crappy, especially when Mordecai struggles to DA and hit reliably, and Lethe doesn’t. Lethe > Mordecai.
Yeah sure, discounting Shinon, and weaponless Titania/Gatrie. All of them are more effective at luring, especially Shinon with his ability. Plus Titania has more MOV and Gatrie has better DEF for tanking.
…no he doesn’t. You’ve already got 3 tanky units before he arrives, plus a fellow laguz that’s outclassing him in that aspect. Mordecai is useless, while Rhys has immense healing utility that you just ignored. Rhys is one of the most useful units in the game, Mordecai is useless. How is that a win for Mordecai?
You’re kidding, right? Mist wants, debatably, all of her supports EXCEPT Mordecai. Her supports with Rolf and Jill are incredibly fast, and the two of them are solid units, along with Boyd and Titania. Mist will probably wind up with A Rolf, B Jill, with no support with Mordecai.
Quite likely to replace Mordecai. The two have no reason to be used together, since Ranulf does everything Mordecai does, and does it better.
Soren is a better option for him, really, but he wants Ike, so Mordecai does have a chance with Stefan, I suppose.
Mordecai won’t be fielded either, so they’re a perfect pair. =D
Ilyana has a fair chance with Mordecai I suppose, but like you said, she probably won’t be fielded.
Okay, so we can give Mordecai A Stefan B Ilyana. I’ll compare bonuses later.
I won’t even argue against this, because Kieran wants A Oscar B Marcia. Moving on…
Rolf will want Rhys more than Marcia, so there’s Rhys’s B support.
Titania is still great as a unit, and a good support partner. Rhys will probably be her A support.
Mia makes a decent backup support option, but she probably won’t be used. Rhys has full supports anyway.
They’ve both got full rosters: Mordecai – A Stefan, B Ilyana Rhys – A Titania B Rolf
Rhys’s defenses are nicely supplemented, and his attacking power is boosted. These are good bonuses for him.
Due to Stefan’s crappy Heaven affinity, these bonuses are pathetically low. Mordecai gains no evasion, only slightly boosted defense, and better Hit% (though still not great) and slightly higher attack. Overall, these bonuses aren’t that great. -I couldn’t find the support bonuses anywhere besides GameFAQs, so I can’t guarantee reliability there. Everything else came from EFED, so it should be correct.- |
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12:44 PM Nov 25
