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| Reikken vs Sentenal | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 6 2007, 09:33 AM (439 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Apr 6 2007, 09:33 AM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Normal rules yay. GOD TIER FIGHT! The debaters, at least. |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Reikken | Apr 9 2007, 03:35 AM Post #2 |
 
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First, let's take a look at their base stats, excluding magic for obvious reasons: Muarim, Tiger 45 hp, 16 str, 13 skl, 15 spd, 12 def, 5 res, 11 lck Lethe, Cat 34 hp, 12 str, 10 skl, 12 spd, 9 def, 7 res, 15 lck Wow, Muarim wins in everything but luck and resistance. Yea, Lethe joins earlier, but it's not that much earlier, Lethe is on a high level, and two of the chapters you probably won't even be killing anything anyway. Now look at transformation gains: Tiger 7 str, 4 skl, 3 spd, 3 def, 3 res Cat 6 str, 4 skl, 3 spd, 5 def, 3 res Lethe's higher def gain makes the defensive gap a bit smaller, while Muarim's higher str gain widens the offensive gap even more. Demi Band'd gains: Tiger 4 str, 2 skl, 2 spd, 2 def, 2 res Cat 3 str, 2 skl, 2 spd, 3 def, 2 res Lethe gets shafted a bit in defense while Muarim's offense lead is unchanged. Sucks for Lethe. And now, weapons: Tiger Claw 9 mt, 90 hit, 0 crit, 1 wt, 1 rng Cat Claw 8 mt, 90 hit, 0 crit, 1 wt, 1 rng They're the same, except Muarim's is better. His offense lead is increased again. Muarim is definitely looking better so far. Now for another important category: Supports. Lethe has by far the worst affinity in the game. It gives hit, and that's it. Her affinity sucks, so no one wants to support her. And even if they did, none of them can help where she struggles the most: offense. Not good for Lethe. Muarim, on the other hand, has a good affinity. It gives defense and avoid, which is always useful. He'll likely get a support with Zihark. And Largo, if you use him, since Largo definitely needs those defensive bonuses. Zihark likes the bonuses as well. He can reach 100 avoid with just a support with Muarim. Niether of his other supports can do that. Hmm... everything just makes Muarim look better and better. He even wins in little things, like his inbuilt support with Tormod gives +10 crit as compared to +5 for Lethe's one with Mordecai. And his weight is 8 higher, so he can shove mounted units even while untransformed whereas Lethe can't. Where does Lethe shine? Does she even shine at all? |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| Sentenal | Apr 12 2007, 03:40 PM Post #3 |
When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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Well, lets not omit everything, now. Lets get some endgame stats.
Lethe is faster, better against mages, and dodgier. Lets look defensively right now. 18.6 DEF against 15.8 DEF. When they go beast mode, its 21.6 DEF agaisnt 20.8 DEF. So Muarim has about 1 point of DEF on Lethe. Lethe has about 1 point of RES on Muarim. How bout avoid? Lethe has 71.3 avoid. Muarim has 57. (note: note beast mode avoid, since they get the same spd and luk bonus) So, defensively, its a contest between about 1~ DEF and 5~ HP, against 1~ RES and 14.3 avoid. Which one is better defensively? I think my Lethe is. And lets actually look at the support bonuses before you simply cast them aside. Lethe supports with both Jill and Ike. Simply starting off, her options are better than Muarim's. While this low tier debate assumes the use of both of these low tier characters (Lethe and Muarim), it doesn't assume the use of other low tier characters. That means Largo use isn't assumed. Zihark, I guess, but thats one partner to my 2. From her support with Ike, Jill gets full hit and avoid. From her support with Jill, she gets 1 DEF, full hit, and half avoid. Jill doesn't have many other options. She has Mist and Haar. She has to get what supports she can, so support with Jill is a given. If I go Ike A, Jill B, then I'm getting 1 DEF, 25% hit, and 20% avoid. Since you are basically just going Zihark A, you get 1 DEF, and 22% avoid. So dispite Lethe's affinity, the people who she is actually supporting with are better. Jill>Zihark. Ike>Zihark. Making better units better, is more important than making mediocre units better. Want some more points in Lethe's favor? Lethe is an early transformer. The chapter starts, Lethe transforms automatically, she runs up and teabags something. Muarim is not. He has to wait a bit in order to be used. As to you comparing base Lethe and base Muarim... I think thats a bit unfair. If you actually used Lethe, she would have gained maybe 3 levels?
So things aren't as bad as you make them out to be. You still win offensively, granted. Defensively, LETHE wins, in beast mode. 15 DEF for Muarim, and 15.2 DEF for Lethe. And Lethe wins in RES by 3~. And avoid? Muarim 41, Lethe 44.7. (note: avoid is non-beast mode, since they get same bonuses) And lets not forget, Lethe has been around long enough to work on supports. Lethe would have C Ike, and C Jill when Muarim gets in. So, updating our info: Lethe gets 10 hit and 7 avoid. So this makes Avoid 41 to 51.7 avoid, Lethe winning. AND I'M NOT DONE YET YOU INTIMIDATING BASTARD. Muarim comes with a Demi-band, which I don't like at all. Yeah, you can stay in beast mode for a while, but reduced bonus? Screw that. Lethe comes with a BEORCGUARD. Halfs damage from human enemies. This makes Lethe's defensive abilities skyrocket. You can keep your crappy Demi-Band, and I'll have my pwnage Beorcguard. |
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| Reikken | Apr 12 2007, 08:31 PM Post #4 |
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Yea, sure, let's compare them at the single best point for Lethe, after Muarim has already capped his level allowing Lethe to catch up. Those stats reflect a very small part of the game. But let's check them out anyway.
Awesome. Lethe has more resistance during the part of the game that has like 1-2 mages per chapter. Way to go, Lethe. And more avoid during the part of the game that's jam-packed full of laguz and their 130ish hitrates. They're still going to have well over 50 hit, so 2 RN thing makes it even higher. Not impressed. She's faster. Yaye, she can double ravens, by far the weakest and least common of the laguz. Muarim is fast enough to double just about anything else she can. Well, then. Now it's Muarim's turn. More attack, defense, and hp. That attack lead is key. It's about a 5 attack lead. That's about the difference in attack between Ike and Mist (after supports). In fact, that's about how much attack they have. Muarim's is the same as Ike's with a silver sword (give Ike and Mist a fighter/wyvern/knight band) (26.0str+1supports+13silversword=40.0,, 23.7str+7trans+9claw=39.7), and Lethe's is the same as Mist's with a silver sword(18.0str+4supports+13silversword=35.0,, 20.5str+6trans+8claw=34.5). So anyway, attack lead ftw. And if that attack lead somehow doesn't impress you, another point to be brought up is that Muarim can use the Demi Band and be transformed all the time instead of just half the time and still have just as much defense and still have more attack. There's a winner right there. If Lethe uses the Demi Band, she loses 2 def instead of 1, and her attack goes from bad to shit. Lucia-level attack ftl.
How about avoid? Laguz are probably the most threatening with their high move + high hit and also very common in this part of the game, even with an entire chapter dedicated to them, so let's look at how they stack up against one. Random level 11 tiger: 18 skill, 3 luck, 90 hit claw. 129 hit. 58 hit on Lethe, 72 hit on Muarim. Real hit = 65 on Lethe, 84-85 on Muarim. Niether of those is even close to reliable, so I wouldn't count on there being any difference at all, but...Lethe gets hit 77% as often as Muarim. Somewhere between 4 to Muarim's 5 and 3 to Muarim's 4, but Muarim can take an extra hit, and Lethe's advantage is luck-based. Eh. Whoever wins, and whatever the difference may be, it's certainly negligible. Very clear offense lead > super iffy may-not-even-be-a-lead-at-all defense lead, so Muarim wins. And this is before supports, and Muarim's defensive bonuses > Lethe's regardless, so this is still biased towards Lethe. At the point of the game where Lethe matches up the best, and when it's also biased towards Lethe in terms of supports, Muarim still comes out on top. Amazing.
Indeed it does assume that Lethe or Muarim is used since it wouldn't be a debaet without them, but it doesn't assume that the player has suddenly gone mad and decided to make the worst decisions possible. Ike with Lethe? He would forgo his far superior Oscar and Soren supports, which not only hurts Ike but also hurts Oscar and Soren? (It especially hurts Soren, since has has like no other supports. -22 avoid ftl) Not a chance. And then after Oscar and Soren, there's Titania, who he would also rather support with. After that, he still has more support options, but it's not as clear cut. Not that it matters. She's not getting through the first 3. There may as well be a triple thick concrete wall between Lethe and Ike.
Mist and Haar = two characters, not one. Mist's affinity >>>>> Lethe's, so Jill's taking Mist over Lethe any day. Haar's affinity >> Lethe's, and Haar also works very well with Jill since they both have the same movement. Both 9 move, both mounted, both can fly. That doesn't leave any room for Lethe.
I'm only including Zihark because I'm only using supports that will actually happen. And the funny part is that Muarim's one support already > Lethe's two, not even counting the fact niether of Lethe's supports are realistic.
Except for the fact that Lethe is making them worse by replacing superior support bonuses from other units with Lethe's crappy support bonuses.
Yes, Muarim has to wait a turn or two before he transforms, but that's actually better than transforming right at the beginning. On the first turn, there's either no enemies at all to attack, or there's very few. Muarim is transformed when there's actual fighting going on.
No, Lethe does not win defense. She has 4 avoid and 3 res. Muarim has 7 hp. 7 hp > 4 avo and 3 res. And then, Muarim can also use the Demi Band, and then Lethe does indeed win in defense by a small amount (1 def, 4 res, and 6 avo vs 7 hp) ....except she's only transfomed half the time, and Muarim is still winning by a marginal amount in offense, and he's transformed all the time. Either Muarim wins offense, or he works at about the same level as Lethe, but all the time instead of half the time. Clear victory for Muarim.
It's not so good for Lethe but great for Muarim. Most of the reductions are -1 except strength, which is -3, and in Lethe's case, -2 for defense. Lethe's already crappy attack can't take the attack reduction, but Muarim's is fine, so he's good to go, and he doesn't get the doubled def loss. w1n for Muarim.
That would indeed be w1n if that was what that item actually did. All it does is negate the bonus damage from laguz-effective weapons. Phail. An inferior version of the Full Guard. If you don't believe me, play the game or check here. |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| Sentenal | Apr 15 2007, 10:16 PM Post #5 |
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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Hey, I'm just arguing how they compare when Lethe gets up to similar level to Muarim. If you don't want Level 20, lets just take level 12. Certainly you aren't saying Muarim's level lead is eternal. Muarim, Lvl 12: HP: 49.3 STR: 18.1 SKL: 15.1 SPD: 16.6 DEF: 13.8 RES: 6.4 LUK: 12.0 Lethe, Lvl 12: HP: 45.7 STR: 16.5 SKL: 15.8 SPD: 18.3 DEF: 12.6 RES: 9.3 LUK: 19.5 Muarim has HP, STR, and DEF, while Lethe has everything else. Double attacks more, better against mages, and when the Laguz bonus kicks in, is tankier. Pretty much the same shit. When these characters have equal level, Lethe>Muarim.
Lethe's avoid here DOES make her better at dodging. While Lethe will be dodging some, will Muarim be dodging any? Lethe's 15~ avoid is much more significant than Muarim's 1 DEF lead. There is no way to argue against that. Lethe>Muarim in defense, endgame.
Lethe is better offensively against speedier units, we already know that. And if both of these units are packing the punch of melee units with Silver Swords, I don't have anything to complain about with either unit's attack power.
I don't believe in using Demi Bands. I send Lethe in, enemies die, Beast Mode wears off. No ranks in this game, so then there is nothing stopping you from just sitting there till beast mode kicks back in.
I agree that 85% hit on Muarim means his avoid is close to negligible. There is only a 15% chance of Muarim dodging. There is a 35% chance of Lethe doding. So Lethe is dodging more than twice the amount of time that Muarim is. Might not be whole lot, but its still there. And when we are comparing them defensively, things like this matter.
When Lethe has a solid AS lead on Muarim, I fail to see how Muarim is clearly winning in offense. Lethe's attack power is plenty to 2HKO many enemies. Muarim's too. But the fact remains that Lethe is doubling more. You cannot simply bursh something like this off. Plus, Lethe sorta looks like Fox. She just has to get an enemy off the edge, shine them, and they die at 0%.
Bias?  At any given point in the game, when they are at near equal level, Lethe is better. I already showed you how they looked in comparision if they were both level 12. Pick any point in the game, when they are close in level, and Lethe wins, for the points I've already said. Endgame just happend to be the benchmark I picked, but that by not means implies that endgame is the only time Lethe shines.
Come now, what is the real reason you support units? Think about it for a second. There is a reason. And the reason isn't "making your army better." For example, take Roy. Roy supports with nearly every female in Fire Emblem 6. Other than like, Niime or some shit. And there is a very good reason for that. So, Titania is Lethe's only competition, and Lethe is hotter.
What the hell is a flyer like Jill gonna being doing hanging around a healer like Mist? Yeah, Mist has a better affinity. Are they going to be close enough to use them? Hell no. Jill is gonna be flying around using her pwnage flyer and mounted advantage to rape enemies in the rear, while Mist is gonna be behind your frontline guys. Lethe A, Haar B. Haar comes late, while Jill could already be benifiting from Lethe support most of the game when Haar gers there.
I had no idea that giving other units improved hit and avoid made them worse. Maybe killing the enemy is a bad thing! Make love, not war, you stupid Cat bitch!!!
Most of the time, there is probably at least one enemy that Lethe can spring on to kill. And even if it takes a turn after the start to reach an enemy, she is still attacking before Muarim.
You can have your demiband, and I'll have my good stats. HP rarely matters. HP only matters when a unit is put into a life threatening situation, as in, something is teabagging them. Neither of these units are likely to get raped in combat, nor would one put them into a position to get raped. 3 RES and 4 avoid ALWAYS matters. Well, the 4 avoid does, and the 3 RES always matters against mages.
Yeah, you can keep your Demi Band, and I won't, kthx. The payoff isn't worth it IMO.
no u actuary, the beorcguard halfs damage taken from laguz, and is only equipable by beorc SOURCE According to this, it halfs Beorc damage. And it got the holy approval of 'yah' from Marcus. |
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| Reikken | Apr 16 2007, 04:30 PM Post #6 |
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lol, nice try. Extra durability in general only matters if you would die without it, so this point is worthless. Ending the chapter with 90% health is no better than ending with 30%. So unless you're saying that durability in general doesn't matter, hp DOES matter.
lol @ ignoring hp. A unit only has to dodge when it's put in a life threatening situation, as in, something is teabagging them. Neither of these units are likely to get raped in combat, nor would one put them into a position to get raped. And Lethe doesn't even have an avoid win. Even if she has A with Jill, Muarim's A with Zihark is 22 avoid instead of 7. That's a 15 difference, leaving Lethe with a 0 avoid lead.
I'm sorry, but the game disagrees with you. Play the game. Equip Lethe with the beorcguard, and check her defense and the enemy's attack. There is no reduction in damage. The damage she takes = enemy's attack - her defense.
lol, no. Going slower means you get less bonus exp. This affects you throughout the game. You don't even have to be shooting for an S rank. And just the same as you can say, "I want to get the max ranking," you can say, "I want to get max bexp." So it's arguably even more important to not go slowly.
Lethe is not catching up until the very end. Sure, she gets more exp per kill, but the closer she gets, the longer it takes to catch up. Check out the exp formula: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/elaice/fe9/calculation.htm What you may see is that each additional level reduces gained exp by 1.5 (which is truncated to either 1 or 2). If you don't believe me, check the formula yourself, and if you don't believe VincentASM, check the game. So... if she starts out 3 levels behind, she's getting 4.5 more exp per kill, so that's 22 kills to close the gap by 1. Then the exp diff is 3, so that's 33 more kills for another level, and then after that, it's a 1.5 diff, so that's 67 more kills. 122 kills before she catches up, which is about what some of your top 5 in the game are getting overall, and this is only for ch 16 on, and Lethe is only even fighting half the time. Definitely not happening. Comparing them on the same level is baised. They're not going to be on the same level until after Muarim's level caps. While I'm at it, I'll go ahead and figure out what level Lethe would be at by the time you get Muarim. For chapter 10, you shouldn't be killing anything but the boss and those 2 archers, because if you do, that's -700 bonus exp. Not only is bonus exp > combat exp due to it's extremely high level of flexibility, but there's not even enough combat exp to make up for it even in just amount. There's 19 extra units at about level 11. 25 exp per kill is 475 combat exp. Yes, it takes more than 100 bexp to level up at higher levels, but it's not nearly enough to bring it down to even 500. At level 11, it's 108 needed per level, so that makes 700 about equal to 650. 650 > 475. And getting full bexp could be worth something in its own right. So +20 exp for Lethe. Chapter 11, she gets about 9-10 exp per kill, and there's what, 30 enemies? And several are on level 1. And you have 8-11 ppls. So that's liek 3 kills per person. AND she's only able to fight half the time. Regardless, let's give her 4 kills just for extreme pro-Lethe bias. +40 exp. exp so far, 60 Chapter 12 has 15 ravens including all the reinforcements. Let's give her 2 kills and 2 non-kills since they're hard to kill. They're about the same level as her. +70 exp. 130 Chpater 13 has 26 non-raven enemies, average of about level 14 if you include the halberdiers and boss. That's 10 exp per kill. 3 kills = 30 exp. She won't be transformed at the end when you're killing ravens, but... +a raven for +25 exp = +55. 185 ch 14.. 20 enemies +2 tigers +1 boss. And they're about level 12-13. 7-9 exp each, though we'll make it 9 just to go in Lethe's favor every time, so for 2 of them, +18 exp. +10 from attacking a boss or tiger, even though she won't be transformed anymore when you get to them. 213 ch 15.. not killing the laguz gets you 1160 bexp. There's 19 of them, and they're like level 24 or so. 19x25 = 475 again, and a level 24 needs 167 bexp for a level, so 1160 bexp is the same as 695 combat exp. Not killing them = better. So 2 levels for Lethe. It should be even less, noting those biases towards her. So she actually starts out 4 levels behind. 17 kills to make up that first level, and then the 122 for the other 3. When Muarim is on level 12, Lethe is level 9 or 10. Muarim, 12: 49.3 hp, 18.1 str, 16.6 spd, 13.8 def, 6.4 res, 12.0 lck Lethe, 10: 43.1 hp, 15.5 str, 16.9 spd, 11.8 def, 8.8 res, 18.5 lck In offense, she's losing by 4-5 in atk, and they tie in AS. Muarim wins offense. In defense, she loses by 6 in hp and 0-2 in def, and wins by 2 in res and 7 in avo...until you look at supports. Muarim has Zihark C/B for 7/15 avo and 0/1 def/res, and Lethe has nothing. Pretending she has Jill, though, that's Jill B/A for 5/7 avo and 1 def. Lethe's avo lead is nulled. Muarim's hp/def > Lethe's res, so he wins defense slightly. OR Muarim w/ teh demi: Muarim wins by 2-3 in atk, and loses by 1 in AS, which doesn't do much but reduce his avo by 2...when Lethe is tranformed. Otherwise, it's an increase by 4. He still wins offense. And Muarim wins 6 hp, ties avo, loses res by 3, and loses def by 1. It's about a tie....when Lethe is transformed. Otherwise, Muarim wins by 6 hp, 5 avo, 4 def, and 1 res. And the ability to counterattack. And he doesn't detransform. Muarim wins usefulness by a landslide. And Lethe's Jill support shouldn't even exist. And Muarim has the most beastly growths in the game, so even though Lethe is gradually catching up in level, she's not getting any better in comparison. Muarim wins by 20 in hp, str, def, and res growths. Well, 15 for hp. Her spd/lck is getting better, but Muarim's speed is already high enough to double everything, so it's just adding to her avoid, but then Muarim's support is mainly avoid, and it's still growing, so that takes care of that.
Just to comment on your level 12 comparison, even though it's absurd. Lethe gaining 7 levels and Muarim gaining 3? lolz. She would have to be gaining over twice as much exp, and keep doing it even when she's only 1-2 levels lower. Double attacks more? Pls. Muarim has 19.6 speed. What is he NOT doubling? Ravens that are transformed and myrmidons that are not weighed down. That totals to about 1 class. His extra 8 damage against everything else wins offense. And Lethe isn't even doubling some of those myrmidons and ravens herself. Muarim is always winning offense, even when you compare Lethe on a higher level than she'll actually be.
Actually it is "making your army better". ...oh wait. Sentenal made a funny. lololol
No, Titania definitely > Lethe. Except maybe if you're a furry or something.
Lethe is only better at staying nearby before promotion. The only time it's even close to debatable is after Lethe's hits B and before Mist promotes. Before B, the bonuses are completely negligible (lol 2 avoid and 5 hit), and after, Mist's bonuses >>> Lethe's and it's also more practical. 8 move mounted and able to attack all the time > 7 and 9 move unmounted, and only able to attack half the time. That's a very small window. Ch 16 through about 17.2. Or even smaller if you give Mist extra bexp. The only thing you could possibly argue is that Mist wouldn't be close due to being a healer, but she's mounted and physic staves are plentiful, so the only reason she would have to stay back would be if she had low durability, but she doesn't. She gets 4-5 def from her supports. 20/2 supported Mist vs 9 Lethe... Mist has 12-13 def or 13-14 with one of the bands for def. Lethe has 12-13 def unstransformed and 17-18 def transformed, but she also has a weakness to laguz-slaying weapons, though that's fixable with the beorcguard. I'll assume that they're both using their respective items. Mist has no weaknesses despite having a horse, just in case you thought otherwise. Lethe does have 13 hp more, but Mist has 13-10 res more, depending on whether or not Lethe is transformed. And Lethe also has a weakness to fiyar when transformed, so that keeps the res lead at about 13 the whole time. One hit from magic and the hp lead is gone, so that about cancels out. They tie in avoid half the time, and Mist wins by 6 the other half. So, half the time, Mist wins def by 1, and avo by 6, and the other half, Lethe wins def by 4 (she has 1 more move, but mounted > 1 move). Mist doesn't have to beat or even tie Lethe in durabiltiy since she has better mobility (mounted > not mounted), ability to counterattack (all the time > half the time), and Mist's bonuses for Jill >>> Lethe's, so the Mist support is better. But Mist does come close in durablity, so the support is just that much better. And then lategame, you get that Runesword thing. Lifesteal = w1n durability. And Mist can have Sol.\ Hmm...actually, level 9 is too high for Lethe. She's level 5 in chapter 16, so level 9 by ch 18? 4 levels on an overlevelled unit in that short of time, and an overlevelled unit that can only fight half the time? No way. h4x. Level 7 sounds better. Okay, now...11-12 / 16-17 def vs 13-14 def, 10 hp lead vs 13-14 res lead, and a 9 / 3 avo lead for Mist. Well, Mist's support is still better; it's just even more...better...now.
Supports exist, so Lethe isn't any better at dodging. If Muarim isn't dodging, Lethe isn't either.
o noez, dodging over twice as much! And someone with a 5% chance of dodging is dodging FIVE TIMES as much as someone with a 1% chance! This is obviously the wrong way to compare dodging ability. When you look at it the right way, you get a much more accurate picture: Lethe is getting hit 23% less often, and the one in the example is getting hit 4% less often. Anyway, if Lethe gets hit 77% as often, but can only take 92% as much damage, that puts her at 77/92 = 83.7%. And if Muarim takes 87% as much damage, that puts him at ...87%. So Lethe does win, but it's not by much, and her advantage is also luck-based, while Muarim's is concrete, AND... when untransfomed, Muarim's win in def is 3 instead of 1. And if he has the demi band, he's never untransformed, and he has the same def as Lethe when transformed, and wins by 5 when she's untransformed, (and if Lethe has the demi band, her offense is even worse than it was before, and she loses by 2 in def) so Lethe doesn't have a practical defensive win. The only thing else Lethe has is a 1 res lead, but when there's almost no mages at all lategame, that hardly makes any difference. AND this is all without supports. Add those in and Muarim gets 22 avo and 1 def, while Lethe gets most likely nothing. Even if she had A with Jill, that's just 7 avo and 1 def. Lethe's avoid lead is gone and is actually most likely a loss. Muarim obviously wins in durability. 5 hp and 1 def vs 1 res, or more likely, 5 hp, 2 def, and 7 avo vs nothing. And this is only that one half of the time. Untransformed, it's 5 hp, 3-4 def, and 0-7 avo vs 1-0 res. Or, with Muarim with the Demi Band, it's 5 hp and 0-1/5-6 def, 0-5/4-11 avo, and 0/1-2 res VS 0-2/0 avo and 2-1/0 res.
If by "speedier units", you mean "ravens". She's not fast enough to double swordmasters since most of those have 24 speed, and everything else Muarim can double. After chapter 19, where Lethe can't double them anyway, ravens are the second least common enemy type in the game after berserkers, which there are only 1-2 of.
Why the emphasis on the word silver? In this game, silver is the norm for lategame. ...Are you implying that silver weapons suddenly make anyone an offensive beast? Ha. Try again. And I hope you noticed that it was Mist with a silver sword. A healer, not a standard melee unit. If her offense is on par with that of the little girl who shouldn't even be using a sword, something is wrong. And Mist actually beats her in offense due to being able to use forged swords and magic swords... Anyway, to show you that I'm not making baseless claims like you, here's an example: Level 11 cat- 17 def, 43 hp, 18 spd With her 34-35 atk, Lethe does 17-18 twice, which is 35 damage, far short of the 43 needed to kill. Muarim does 23 twice, which is 46-45 damage. Oh snap. Even if we drop down to a level 9 cat, which is the weakest you'll see that late in the game, and we use the weakest level 9 cat we can find, it still has 16 def, 17 spd, and 39 hp. Even if Lethe's attack gets rounded up to 35, she's still doubling for 19 each, which leaves her 1 hp short of the kill. Way to phail. Muarim, with the Demi Band on, meaning he's fighting twice as much as Lethe, has 37 attack and 23 speed (which is still more than enough to double the first cat), so he's doubling this fool for 21x2 = 42 damage. He kills it with the reduced stats, and Lethe phails to kill even the weakest one with full stats. Of course, not everything is a cat, but that's pretty representative of def/hp, and high on the speed side. Which means Muarim has no trouble doubling. Take a level 11 halberdier: 15/16 def, 42-43 hp, and 16 speed. Lethe phails to kill it by about 6, and Muarim kills it with room to spare. level 12 warrior: 14 def, 49 hp, 16 spd. Lethe phails, Muarim kills. etc, etc. Even if the enemies were weaker, and Lethe could kill them, then you have the problem that Muarim can kill them even easier, and be transformed all the time instead of half. Regardless, Muarim is winning by alot. Either One-rounding >>>> two-rounding or Muarim killing more and twice as often >>>>>> Lethe
The number of enemies Lethe doubles that Muarim doesn't is extremely small, and Lethe's power is in fact NOT enough to kill in two.
Too bad Lethe can't shine, and even if she could, she lacks the power to get them off the edge in the first place. Double phail.
Lethe isn't even shining endgame since she's losing. And equal levels = not happening.
Is this another joke? Good bonuses -> meh/suck bonuses = made worse
Except anyone could be getting that kill since it's only 1. She's not helping anything.
And she also stops attacking sooner. Muarim gets an extra turn or two of attacking when having an extra attacker actually helps you. Or he can use the Demi Band and still be a better attacker, but be attacking all the time.
They're not very good when Muarim's are better even with the demi band and when she's transformed. More attack, and still doubling, and still winning or tieing durability + being able to fight all the time instead of half = landslide win
klol So Muarim has a very definite offense lead and existant non-sucky supports for even a bit of a defense lead as well as a slightly better transform time, or he has being able to attack all the time and a reduced offense lead (it's still a lead). Lethe has some AS, but only late in the game, and it only lets her double the rare ravens and most of the swordmasters. If the object of the game was to kill lategame ravens, Lethe would win, but it's not, so the winner is Muarim. |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| Sentenal | Apr 17 2007, 11:26 PM Post #7 |
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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Your gay. |
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10:22 AM Nov 24
