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| Kamaitachi vs Yzarc | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 15 2007, 11:18 AM (475 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Apr 15 2007, 11:18 AM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Normal rules and such. This should be fun! |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Kamaitachi | Apr 17 2007, 05:34 PM Post #2 |
Classy
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I never ever know how to start off debates very well. So...Janaff vs Largo. Fun, sure. I'll begin with some definitions: Lar·go /ˈlɑrgoʊ/ Pronunciation Key - [lahr-goh] –noun a town in W Florida. 58,977. adjective 1. very slow in tempo and broad in manner adverb 1. slowly and broadly noun 1. (music) a composition or passage that is to be performed in a slow and dignified manner
Now let's look at Janaff's definitions. Janaff -noun 1.) A fuckin' kickass bird.
Also let it be known that Josephus Augustus Naff, , or "J.A. Naff" is a researcher who studies the mystery of the origin of his family. A little tidbit though:
This clearly states that Janaff lived all the way until 1949, modern day. That's long even for Laguz standards. He had to change his name, and love many many women before his ultimate death in 1949. That's right. Janaff lived until frickin WWII. Largo? Well Largo apparently disappears in the annals of history. I guess he couldn't leave Tellius. Shame he didn't have, ya know...wings. Oh, and word to the wise, when you put Largo next to Janaff, he's only really two-thirds Largo. Why? Well he's slow and broad (his shoulders are gigantic), but he's not nearly dignified. When Janaff is untransformed, or holding onto a demi-band, Largo matches him in speed, (or is slightly faster), but when Janaff transforms, Janaff takes the cake. I am, of course, comparing 20/20 stats, but now that I've even said 20/20 I fear I've put in too many numbers already. I'm trying hard not to overload everyone with numbers like Simon or Reikken. In any case, another thing I'd like to point out is that...well...Janaff untransformed has more defense than Largo. Largo is a big hulking...thing...with a big sharp thing. And Janaff is ultimately a tiny bird. And yet, somehow, Janaff's tiny-birdness can soak up more damage than Largo. Sure Largo can put out more damage wise, but if he's really from attacks, with his lower luck and lower defense, he's going to have a hard time defending himself. Janaff will take hits better and dodge better. Oh, and he's prettier too. Well Yzzy darling, we've never debated before, but I thought I'd start things off light. Gimme your best shot. Love ya much ya studmuffin. ~Kovu |
   
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| Yzarc | Apr 18 2007, 06:07 PM Post #3 |
Coxian
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Let's do this!
Indeed. Slow and dignified. Just imagine Largo, walking calmly along the beach, head held high, smiling widely. He doesn't hit on the hot beach babes that walk by, but does nod and smile to them. Then then go ahead and nod and smile back, finally approaching the gentle giant. Afterwards, Largo brings the beach babe back to his cabin, and they pursue a beautiful night of sensual romance. And by that, I mean he fucks her in the ass so hard that every time she shits for three weeks, it gets all over the place. This is because Largo is very large, not only in stature.
Cite your sources plz.
So, he lived a long time? He studied the origins of his own family's history? Oh. Wow. Allow me to step aside for the great Josephus, for he did something fantastic. Oh wait, no, I don't care and I don't think anyone else does. Nor do I even believe that this J.A. Naff is even related to Janaff.
I am insulted, sir, that you would suggest such a thing. Largo? Undignified? Granted, he's pretty prideful, but to say that he is not dignified is a hit below the belt, sir, and I will not stand for it.
I'm confused as to your point. Are you suggesting that Largo is slow? It's like one of those backwards names that don't really make sense. Like Tiny. Largo isn't slow. Janaff is fast. But Largo isn't slow.
Oh my GOD, you're so BORING. Jesus CHRIST. Seriously, dude, this is a debate, not a number-off. You're supposed to prove that Janaff > Largo not that you can math.
Gratz for him. It's not as if Largo can't take a hit worth shit, it's just that faggot-ass Janaff has some sort of armor. What's more manly? Taking a shitload of damage and still being okay? Or not taking very much damage at all because you either 1. Are a pussy and use a shield/armor/something aside from your pure manliness, 2. Don't take hits at all because you're too scared of a blade or 3. Stay out of battle because you're a pussy in general. None of those three are particularly good. Generally speaking, it's cooler to take a lot of damage and have a lot of scars. At the end of the day, if you're still alive, the only thing that differs between, say, Largo and Janaff, is that Largo has a cool story to tell to some hot chick, while Janaff...Well, Janaff likes to have sex with men anyway, so I guess it really doesn't matter. (Janaff is a fag)
Yes. Largo can put out more damage. Largo puts out intensely more damage. Let's take Janaff in Transformed mode and Largo, damagewise. Janaff: 32.6 damage Largo: 40.4 damage (Steel Axe) Largo does significantly more damage and can double pretty much everything, meaning the difference in damage is doubled in all cases (Since both are going to double pretty much everything.) Largo can also use better axes, like the Silver Axe, which he actually is likey to use lategame. If he does, his damage goes up to 45.4 per hit. That's pretty god damn ridiculous, ya? Largo also destroys Janaff in critical % chance, but WAIT, EVERYONE HOLD ALL THE PHONES. Janaff. Is. More. *sigh* I can't believe I'm saying this. Accurate. Poor Largo and his 24 Skill and 15.9 Luck. It's unfortunate that those stats are so low that OH WAIT, they're actually pretty good. Also, any of Largo's supports provide at least 7% accuracy at A. So, statistically, we've concluded (I say "we" because I'm assuming that we're working together to come to this conclusion. Correct me if I'm wrong here.) that offensively, Largo rapes Janaff. Not only that, but Largo pretty much rapes everybody. Can you name a physical attacker that can outperform Largo damagewise? I can't. However, what's Janaff's "strong point" over Largo? He can take damage better. Umm, Janaff has 14.6 Defense and 13 Resistance. He's got some good HP, and decent evasion, but he's, by no means, even close to being able to soak up damage very well. In fact, untransformed, Janaff beats Largo by about 3% in evasion. So, in that half-of-the-time, Janaff is slightly superior to Largo defensively, but Largo more than wipes the floor with Janaff offensively. Why? Janaff CAN'T ATTACK. At all. Meanwhile, Largo is 100% of the time your best bet for killing anything, period, ever. When Janaff is transformed? Largo still is superior offensively. So, even if Janaff's "good" moments, he can't kill as well as Largo. He can take more damage. Okay. So can a lot of people. Are you suggesting that you're using Janaff because he's a tank, be it dodge or meat shield? Because Janaff isn't even close to that, not without an A Support with Lucia (who is WAY too sexy for Janaff). So, Largo knows his purpose. He's the best offensive powerhouse in the game. What is Janaff's purpose? Please, say more than "he's better at taking damage from Largo" because you know what? So are a lot of people.
Oh. No. You. Didn't. Janaff: Some kid with wings. He has Asian eyes. Asian eyes are kinda hot, if they're on a girl. But on a guy? Asian guys have small penises, not attractive, at all. Janaff has no visible muscles. What? He's too cool to work out? I'm sure his retarded-ass-looking wings have some muscles, that's all he ever uses. Lift some weights you fucking lazy homo. And yes. I went there. I fucking went there. Janaff's wings are UGLY. Tibarn has some beautiful fucking wings. Not Janaff. No sir. What does Largo have? No shirt. OMFG, sexgasm. You know that next door neighbor who gets the paper early in the morning, too early to put a shirt on? But he's ridiculously overweight? And you're like "Ew." Well, how amazing would it be for this fucking guy, Largo, to replace that fat next door neighbor? You'd stay awake all night just to get a glimpse of these pecs. They're so sexy. Don't deny it. Largo also has a really sexy hair color. It's the sexiest color ever. Just look at the color of his hair, and compare to the color of Janaff's hair. I mean, god damn it. If there was anything about Janaff more sexy than anything about Largo, the hair color would MORE THAN make up for that.
K. Close your eyes and open your mouth. Seriously, it'll be funny, watch.
Oh, you.  Just for that, I'm gonna let you pitch tonight!
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| Kamaitachi | Apr 21 2007, 01:31 AM Post #4 |
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Classy
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I believe mine virgin ears/eyes doth misunderstand. He has a large what? Ego? Now, gentle giant and hard ass-fucking is quite a contradicion. I do hope you'll either pick one or explain how he can manage such a paradigm shift. I suppose I can explain a situation for both: Largo is a pitcher. What can we say? With his massive attack power, he's definitely quite capable of dishing out rough bumsecks to anyone in his path. However, with a pitiful 13.3 endgame average defense (That is under the assumption that we're even using both our characters to 20/20), if the role were ever to be reversed, Largo's poor rump would simply shatter. Now, I know, I know, "Largo doesn't need to defend because his attack is so high he can crush anyone in a fairly short amount of time", right? Well, you're not always on the offensive, and unless you saved a vantage scroll, Largo will be attacked a lot. Characters can attack once per turn (twice if Reyson is around), but on the enemy turn, it's however enemies bother to come at you. So Largo is going to be on the receiving end of a lot of attacks. With decent avoid, he seemingly should be okay, right? Well one o' dems pesky swordies comes along and with weapon triangle disadvantage, Largo is in a rough spot. A normally weak sword user can deal some hefty damage to Largo, especially if his defense is just peaking in the low-teens. Janaff does not have this Weapon Triangle Problem. This negates his boon of gaining more accuracy (OH NO, JANAFF WITH MORE ACCURACY!?!?!?!) or some attack power. However, this also negates the misfortune of losing evasion and accuracy. Sure, Janaff is weak to bows and wind magic, but that should put him on at least even footing ground with the fact with Largo's Weapon Triangle dysfunctions. There are plenty of swords.
Will do. These aren't APA format, so please forgive.
He runs at a hung and swings and axe wildly. It's cool, but not dignified. Dignified would indicate that he acts with a stately manner, usually in adherence to the gravity of a situation. To say that Largo is dignified is akin to saying...something really dumb.
Thank you.
Well isn't that what I'm doing? I suppose since it IS a debate, I might as well use the numerics to my advantage. But that can wait for a bit. Please see bottom of page for this.
Largo can't take a hit worth shit. How many characters have worse defense than Largo?
Sothe averages more defense than Largo. That's...painful. And of all the people on the little list up there, the only other melee unit is Mist. And she's a little girl. Her primary function should be healing though. So it's safe to assume that as far as defense or melee characters go, Largo is pretty crap. Janaff has some kind of armor? Janaff untransformed is wearing a tunic. And transformed, he's covered in feathers. Feathers, last time I checked, were not the sturdiest of armors. Largo has a defense that's weaker than feathers. Taking a shitload of damage and still surviving? 60 hp disappears every quickly if every hit hurts. With roughly 13 defense, a lot of hits are going to hurt. 15 damage will not be uncommon. That means Largo's out in 4 hits. His resistance is even worse. If a magic user so much as looks his way, big manly Largo would wish he had AIDS instead. Oh, and by the way? Largo the absolute lowest resistance for a 20/20 average in the entire game. Even SOTHE averages more in res than he does, even if by a small amount. Largo's massive HP lead means nothing if he's losing in both defense and resistance to Sothe.
Yeah, it is pretty ridiculous. Largo beats Janaff in pure damage output. It's true. However, even with his pretty decent skill and luck, inclusive of an A support, enemies evasions are pretty good to. 20 speed is not enough to double pretty much everything, especially when most enemies fall into the 17-20 range, since we're looking at endgame stats. I'm going to steal from Hollie here real quick
Who's doubling that? Not Largo. Janaff? Yeah. Your statement is lies. Largo's accuracy with a steel axe at 20/20 against this particular opponent is 65%, that's even before the WTD. Mind you, there are a lot of paladins in the final chapter of the game where this unit is derived from. So in this instance, let's look at the damage output: Janaff: 32.6 vs 20 defense. Double Attack. Yes. Largo: 40.4 damage vs 20 defense. Double Attack? No. Janaff's accuracy is 146 even before insight. So include insight, and he's still got 100% chance to hit. Largo has roughly 50% So Largo has a 50% chance of dealing 20.4 damage. Janaff has a 100% chance of dealing 25.2 damage. Suddenly, Largo is doing less damage than a bird. Let's say they were to be attacked in return. Largo will take 16 damage before WTA. He won't be doubled, but still. The accuracy on this sword is 129 with WTA, and Largo will have an evasion of 41 after wta. This gives the Paladin still an 88% chance of striking Largo for 16. Janaff's evasion? Well it's going to look something like this: 76.4. The Paladin has a 38% chance of striking Janaff for 11 damage. Oh, and Largo's HP lead over Janaff is roughly 6. This disappears rather quickly in this scenario, you'll note.
Oops. Looks like we're not working towards the same conclusion. I've said that Largo wins in pure damage output. However, we're forgetting that enemies have speed and evasion as well. I think I've just named someone for your little question at the end. Janaff just did. Oh, and he won defensively too.
I'm hardly suggesting using Janaff as a tank. I use a tank for tanking. It's generally how you play the game. Janaff won't A support with Lucia, because...well...Lucia isn't worth supoprting. She's the lowest of the low tier. And mind you, as an offensive powerhouse, Largo's going to be on the frontlines. As melee fighters, Janaff and Largo will be up front in the battle. Why? Well they've got to get right next to their opponent to strike, unfortunately. They're going to be attacked, they're going to be counterattecked.
And yet Janaff's lack of muscle can take a hit better than Largo, be it from a fireball or a blade. I guess Largo's gigantic steroid puffs that he calls pecs are really just for show. And the muscle-men aren't my type, Yzzy baby, you are clearly. Largo's hair-colour is lost on me, by virtue of the fact that I'm colourblind. So I see nothing spectacular in it. Hair colours don't win wars. Well, unless you're a conquerer come to the new world and the natives are all like "Whoa. Yellow Hair. He's totally a god." Sadly, this is Tellius, and not the New World.
Delightful. You really know how to please a man.
Oh Yzarc, I don't want to change the norm. At least in this facet you totally rock my world. Debatewise? Not so much. But bedwise, oh I'm yours. Oh, and before I get sidetracked, I made mention above that I'd point something out. So before we go off to our wild and amazing man-love, here's some numbers. Janaff joins on Chapter 18, looking like this: Lvl 8 Hawk HP: 39.0 Str: 13.0 Mag; 5.0 Skl: 15.0 Spd: 17.0 Def: 11.0 Res: 10.0 Luk: 16.0 Let's assume he follows the averages precisely, even without rounding for now. Largo joins on Chapter 25, looking like this: Lvl 7 Berserker HP: 52 Str: 21 Mag: 4.0 Skl: 21 Spd: 20 Def: 10 Res: 3.0 Luck: 12.0 So let's assume, that Janaff has gained one level per chapter. When Largo arrives, Janaff should be, if this is the case, at Level 16. If he's been following his averages, he's got this: Lvl 16 Hawk HP: 49.4 Str: 17.4 (24.4 transformed) Mag: 5.8 Skl: 20.6 Spd: 22.2 (25.3 transformed) Def: 13.4 (17.4 transformed) Res: 12.0 Luk: 19.2 Transform him So at this point, when Largo finally decides to show his face, he's got roughly 3 more HP than Janaff. When he's loosing in 3 (or 7) points of defense, and 9 points of Res, that 3 HP lead is moot. His skill is not even a full point ahead. His speed is 2 (or 5) points behind. When Janaff transforms at this point in the game, he's got more strength than Largo does. Largo gets 11 points of attack from the Steel Axe, putting his attack power at 32 at this point. Janaff gets 7 might, putting him at 31 attack. So Janaff suffers a few losses to Largo. However, they're very slight, and even compensated. Low HP is made up for by higher defensive paramaters in defense and resistance, so even that extra +2, +4 damage from, say, wind magic is not a big deal. Janaff is losing in a single attack point, and has on the overall, more accuracy to ensure that he's not going to miss. He also has enough speed to double the enemies that Largo cannot, and will have a high enough evasion on top of that. My goodness, manly Largo is being outperformed once he joins, by Janaff. Weird huh? Now I've been drinking through this whole post, and it's starting to kick in, so I'll end here for now. Oh, and by the way, Janaff doesn't need to even go outside to get the paper. He can fucking read it from great distances away. |
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| Yzarc | Apr 21 2007, 10:06 AM Post #5 |
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Coxian
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Largo manages it. Let me explain. He is a gentle giant when he walks along the beach. But, when it comes to the bedroom, similar to combat, he fuckin' goes crazy. He's a berserker, that's his nature. He does a girl in the butt really hard, he slices through thick armor on the battlefield.
That's not what I'm saying at all. In fact, I really don't like the argument that "He just kills everyone before they hit him" primarily because of what you said. Rather, I'm more on the side of "If, at the end of the day, you're still alive, then those with higher defenses are in the same boat as you. Get a heal, and there's no problem." So, sir, unless you're suggesting that Largo will have a good chance of being killed in one turn, then his poor defense is completely countered by his high HP. On the rare occasion Largo DOES catch, it hurts really fuckin' bad. But look at that guy. He can take it. It hurts because his defense is low, but he's manly enough to take it and move no, because his HP is high. HP > Defense because you can heal HP back to full at the end of the turn.
Pesky swordies, eh? Swords aren't very common endgame. Lances, in fact, are. So, Largo takes 15 damage per hit from Pallies with swords? Okay. Likely, there won't be four of those in one spot. And if there are, they probably won't be able to completely surround Largo and all land hits. That's the beauty of a front linesman, is that there's usually someone on either side of them.
Largo's single weapon is more likely to help him than to hurt him, while Janaff's does nothing at all. He'll never get extra evasion, extra defense, extra damage and extra accuracy (not that he needs the latter) but Largo will, for the most part, get all of those bonuses, considering the amount of lance users in the late game.
Interesting sources. I noticed you cited yourself. These sources are going to be considered void unless you can find a valid source.
Is anyone really dignified when it comes to battle? Come on. Janaff is pecking peoples' eyes out, Volke is stabbing them in the back, Kieran is trampling them, Ike is cutting open their stomachs. And why? For what means? To defeat Daein. Is it a worthy cause? Perhaps. That does not change the fact that none of these characters should be proud of the fact that over 3/4 of the people they killed were just servants, doing what they were told. When it comes to war, dignity takes a backseat to victory. You would do well to remember that.
I might also note that Largo has 1 more speed than Janaff does in the lategame, untransformed.
Ugh, I suppose so. I'm kind of a beast with math, though, and you're pretty funny when it comes to entertainment. Are you sure you want to go there?
Quite a few when you look at overall durability. He doesn't have the WORST durability in the game. He has ridiculously high HP which perfectly soaks up all that damage he gets. Hell, if anything, Largo is an outlet for Soren to get some good healing experience in, build up to C Rank. Again, at the end of the turn, Largo will still be alive, because he won't be attacked from all sides and because he won't be surrounded by sword users. He'll live at least a turn and then he'll be healed. That's assuming he takes a few hits, which, in itself, isn't all that likely.
Largo doesn't wear a shirt dude. That means that every hit he takes hits his flesh. That's why. So, if we're talking about little boys having more defense than Largo, it's because Largo is so manly, he doesn't NEED defense. He just soaks it up.
You say that as if characters like Bastian ar more durable than Largo. Largo's got good HP, good speed and decent luck. All he lacks is the pussy Defense and Res. Largo won't die.
Yes, Largo does have defense that's weaker than feathers. It's called human flesh. He just has so fuckin' much of it that he doesn't die.
You say that as if Largo is likely to take that many hits per turn. He'll be on the front, likely surrounded by characters like Boyd and Ike. He's not going to be the target of all that is bad guy.
Yes, his HP lead means a lot if he's losing in both defense and res to Sothe. Largo still is more durable than Sothe, with almost double his HP, more speed and more luck.
Oh. You know what? You're right. Now that I think about it, you're completely right, and you have been this entire debate. 20 Speed ISN'T enough to double pretty much everything. Damn it, I might as well go home. Oh wait! Why would I go home? All you've done is proven that if Largo doesn't gain ANY speed from level 7 to level 20, with a 45% chance to gain one on each level, then Janaff would be better at him in damage output. However, that is not the case. If we're looking at endgame stats, Largo will have 25.8 Speed, which is enough to double everything except, like, swordmasters, which Janaff can't double either, if he's using the Demi Band.
What? I got 72% hit, but whatever, it's the same ballpark. I can't expect you to be able to do math very well anyway, hun, it's not your strong point. I'd also like to point out that this is Largo, in the end game, with a Steel Axe? No. On the final chapter, no one is using Steel Weapons. Everyone is using good weapons because it's THE LAST CHAPTER. Oh, haha, I meant everyone besides Laguz, who still use shity weapons. Sorry. Another point I'd like to add is that we're looking at an enemy paladin with a Steel Blade? Paladins sometimes have Axes, sometimes have Lances, sometimes have Bows. But, Steel Blade? How obscure. I'm sure there are a few in the game like this, but. Okay. Note that most pallies have lances.
I have a slight problem with this. Not only will Largo more than likely be using a Silver Axe, increasing his damage to 45.4, increasing damage per hit to 25.4 (which is actually more than Janaff does in two hits to this particular enemy) but Largo can, in fact, double this Paladin. *GASP* Yes, it's true, Kamai. I don't know where you're getting this 20 Speed from Largo. Probably from his joining chapter. But with Bonus Exp and lots of battle exp, (he gets it fast considering how fast he kills), he's caught up by the final chapter. That is, at least, assumed, if you're using him. So, we've concluded that Largo does 25.4 damage to this Paladin, x2, for 50.8 damage which is *gasp* more HP than the Paladin HAS. So, what have we concluded from YOUR example? Only that Largo can kill a paladin in one round.
I like how you also managed to, out of any possible unit to pick, picked one that has WTA over Largo. For a more fair comparison, shouldn't we do a WTN enemy? Also, we have to assume that Largo is using a Silver Axe, since it's late game, meaning his Accuracy is about to soar. If the enemy is a Lance user, Largo WILL hit. Lance users are common.
Mmm, that's uncertain because the enemy could have any range of weaponry, which greatly affects Largo's accuracy. You have, of course, picked the one that is the worst choice for Largo, I don't blame you, but, come on. I'd use my own example of a Lance user if I wasn't so lazy. But, because I am, I'm just gonna have to call your bullshit.
Largo's evasion is 67.5. Even with WTD, that's more than 41. And that's assuming the Paladin has a Steel Blade. Let's give him a steel axe, to be fair. That lowers accuracy by 10% but the damage stays the same. Paladin's hit goes down to 104 and he has about a 40% chance to hit Largo. Janaff has more evasion and can take hits easier, but Largo's not gonna die. Also, this was against a WTN enemy, against an enemy that he has WTA against (lance users) his evasion shoots up even more.
You're so wrong, though. Janaff doesn't even get close to Largo in damage. Largo DOUBLES Janaff's damage against this particular enemy. Against a lategame General, Janaff does 4.6 and Largo does 12.4, which is almost triple Janaff's damage. Both double meaning Janaff will do 9.2 and Largo will do 24.8. That's a damn significant difference, there, buddy.
So, forgive me for asking, but, uh, why are you using Janaff again? He can't tank, he can't deal damage, well, at least not nearly as well as others. Is it because he can fly? Because you have plenty of other options for flyers, and those guys can fly ALL the time. I'm talking about Marcia, Jill, Haar and Tanith. Of those, only one is Low Tier, meaning Janaff will have to compete with four, at least decent units?
And Largo will either dodge the attack or take it and lose a lot of HP, but not really that high of a percentage of his HP.
Muscles aren't meant for taking hits, they're meant for looking sexy and for DEALING hits. Also,
Oh, you ARE colorblind? Huh, I guess you'll just have to take my word on it, then, that Largo's hair color is SO much sexier than Janaff's, that it pretty much makes up for anything Janaff has over Largo, which might be, I guess, cuteness? Bleh. I feel gay for just SAYING that.
What can I say? I try, at least. And here you show some starting stats, where Largo starts a level lower than Janaff but rapes him completely. Then you say:
Which, of course, I can't wrap my finger around. Janaff, THAT high, THAT late? I'm gonna tell you why that won't happen. Janaff isn't always transformed. He's certainly not deserving of the Demi Band and, most importantly, he's GAY. Janaff gains exp ridiculously slow because he can only attack half as often as others. Because of that, I insist that we lower Janaff's level to 12. Janaff level 12 HP: 44.2 Str: 15.2 (21.2) Mag: 5.4 Skl: 17.8 (22.8) Spd: 19.6 (22.6) Def: 12.2 (16.2) Res: 11.0 (13.0) Luck: 17.6 Largo level 7 HP: 52 Str: 21 Mag: 4.0 Skl: 21 Spd: 20 Def: 10 Res: 3.0 Luck: 12.0 So, all the time, Largo has 21 Strength with, likely, a Steel Axe, pumping it up to 32 damage, while Janaff, half the time, has 21.2 Strength and 28.2 Attack (adding the Beak) meaning Largo still does pretty decent damage of Janaff even though he's five levels lower. They also have fairly similar evasion, Janaff beats him out a little bit because of luck. So, yeah, in this stage of the game, when Janaff is transformed and is five levels higher, he's a little better than Largo, mainly due to durability. I'll say it again, though, durability doesn't mean anything unless it's the difference between life and death. Largo joins with 52 HP. He's not going to die.
Or +9 from a Steel Bow, +13 from a Silver Bow, +8 from ranged blizzard. That's all pretty significant. Against these foes, Largo is actually superior durability wise.
Did you know that Shinon outperforms Ike and Oscar when he first joins? This doesn't mean anything in a game so abundant with Bonus Exp. Largo does come a bit underleveled, but he also comes with pretty ridiculous strength, with grows intensely so that he has the best offensive power in the game, at least of all the melee units. So, a little bit of Bonus Exp for the best offensive powerhouse in the game? Yes, I'll take it.
I'm sorry, all I got from that was "Janaff is REALLY fucking gay." It's too true. Janaff can't hold his own in dealing damage, he just can't. There's no point in ever using him because his only good thing about him is that his durability doesn't suck. It's not particularly GOOD, not enough to be any sort of tank, it's just...Above average. His offense, though, blows. He gets some accuracy? Okay, wow, that serves no purpose at all. |
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| Kamaitachi | Apr 23 2007, 09:40 PM Post #6 |
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Classy
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I'm ridiculously unseduced.
Some will argue that a good offense is a good defense. It simply strikes me that Largo's best form of defense is...his offense. After all, offense is the only thing this lopsided fellow can manage. If at the end of the day...well at the end of every battle, every character is fully healed for the start of the next one. However, it is a hassle to have to heal a character that much in battle. Those who can take hits, will take hits, then get healed later on. If Largo takes a hit, he's in immediate need of a heal. He can't really rely on Calill, now can he. She tends to me or of a stabby, stabby than a healy, healy, d'ya know? So Soren will heal him? Soren's in a similar boat to Largo. He's an offensive powerhouse, just on the magical spectrum. Soren is better suited for tearing through enemies than wasting his time healing.
Oh, if only this were true. But here's the drawback. Largo's crushing attack. Suddenly it's a little hindering to him. Why? Well that enemy fella's gonna run in and smack Largo. With his low defense, it's gonna hurt. But it's okay, he's got HP to soak it up. Largo utterly destroys the enemy with a single swing of his axe. And then lo and behold, another unit steps up in his place. Or, similarly, those damn pallys and their pally pals do this thing where they attack you and run away, leaving that space open. Oops. Without much defense, this is going to wear away at him very quickly. I mean, if I were an enemy paladin trying to choose between striking Ike with my lance, or Largo with my sword or bow, I'd go with Largo, because Ike could just flex and my head would explode.
Where to begin, where to begin. Oh Yzarc baby, you make this so fun. This isn't the usual skip the foreplay get to the banging and fall asleep afterwards. I'm keeping you. So yes. On the rare occasion Largo does catch. It's very rare. Totally rare. Enemies don't have enemy phases in this game. It's just them on the counterattack all the time. Largo doesn't sit there on the frontlines while the enemies wait for him to come to them. They'll run for him too. Therein lies the problem. Largo can, in the course of a skirmish, be attacked by the enemy several times. Oh, and let's not forget enemy ranged units too. Mages and archers aren't going to walk up to Largo and go "Smash my face, please, kind sir." They're going to shoot him. You'd do well to note that Largo's resistance barely covers even a fire or thunder tome. He'll be reeling from those hits. And before he can even shout "Heal plx!?" he might just well be dead. The High HP is his only saving grace, but if it disappears quickly, it disappears quickly. HP>Def? I dunno about this one here. Prevention is better than cure, because it avoids the hassle. High HP is great. It really is. However, the mere fact that there's almost no defense to back it up means that it's going to take some heavy blows. Defense and Resistance keep that HP from dropping. So while Largo may have some high HP there, without defense, that stat is almost meaningless. I mean here. Hypothetical. That Pally I mentioned earlier no longer has a steel blade,. but a steel axe. Oh, and now there are two of him. One for Janaff, One for Largo.
Both attacks are hits. Transformed Janaff takes a hit, Largo takes a hit. Janaff is dealt 10 damage. He's now at 44 HP Largo is dealt 15 damage. He's now at 45 HP. You see what I'm getting at? The next time they're attacked, Janaff's at 34 and Largo's at 30. The next after that? Janaff's at 24 and Largo is at 15. The next time after that, Janaff is at 14 and Largo is at 0. The next time after that, Janaff is at 4, but still alive. Now, of course, Largo can kill off that enemy before it can land more than the first hit, but there's never just one enemy for each of your units, is there. You always are at a numerical disadvantage when it comes to quantity of units. Now the battle is not going to be that...straightforward, I know. But I think my point has been sufficiently made. I don't think I could make it any more clear unless I wrote "DEFENSE IS GOOD" on a mallet and smacked you on the head with it.
Here's the thing about the weapon triangle. You can boast about the bonuses you get from it from here until holy hell, but the weapon triangle is both a blessing and a curse. Other axe users, like Kieran, Titania, or even Jill upon promotion, can manipulate it a little bit, but it doesn't mean they have the advantage all the time. Largo cannot change what type of weapon he's using. So sure, there are lance users, but there are sword users too. More Lances? Fine. But it's not like the enemies can't switch weapons ever. Some generals in the game come with swords AND lances. Some paladins come with swords AND lances. Wyvern Lords can have axes too. In the same fashion you manipulate the weapon triangle to your advantage, they'll be doing the same. So here's the problem. He'll get these extra evasions, extra defense and extra accuracy (he doesn't NEED it per-se, but it's still nice. His critical rate is for nothing if he doesn't land a hit), he'll find himself on the side of LOSING those things too. Not just as often, but still enough. Largo can't ever afford to lose defense, accuracy or evasion. His accuracy is decent, but if he loses it, well his offensive might is gone to waste. His evasion is decent too, but if he loses it, his defense, which was a glaring weakness before, is going to glare even harder.
I do site myself. I daresay sometimes I'm often enough to be cited, and if you weren't going to, I was damn sure well going to. You can go ahead and consider them void if you wish, I don't need them to prove my point.
So ultimately, you're agreeing with me.
I never said that Janaff was dignified. I just said that Largo was not. Thanks for playing.
Oh no. One speed. Janaff's not going to be double attacking untransformed. Janaff's evasion at this point is then only slightly better than Largo's, due to Janaff's higher luck.
It's up to you really. We've experimented before, and sometimes we found it pleasing, othertimes less so. Like that one time we used chocolate syrup and whipped cream. Delicious. That time we tried having livestock in the room? Not so delicious. It's really your call, honey.
He doesn't have the worst durability. But that defense and resistance are just...yuck. High HP is a nice buffer zone, but then again, Janaff has above average defense, and average resitance...and High HP. I've already made point to the Soren remark. Now, I have a problem with your argument though. You're saying that Largo's not going to be the only one attacked, which is most likely true. However, that means that there will be other units in need of healing. But you want him to heal up Largo, because Largo will have taken more damage. He may still be alive, but at this rate, just barely. Being in need of healing is not a good thing. It'll be necessary, as everyone is taking hits, but the less frequent healing is needed, the better. Characters who will dodge and absorb hits better without such detriment to their HP are, in my book, better frontliners.
See, that's just dumb. Manly though it might be, it's still dumb. But since he's so good at soaking up the damage, i might as well get rid of my Bounty (The quicker picker upper) and use Largo instead. However, unlike say, an actual tank character like Gatrie or Brom, Largo can't soak up that well. Gatrie and Brom can soak up damage in a completely different, and more effective manner. See, they don't need to be squeezed out once they've done a little bit of soaking. The Largo sponge would need to be. Almost constantly.
Actually, I say it as if Largo is crap defensively. I never said Bastian was more durable. In fact, I never mentioned durability. I just said defense. Stop putting words in my mouth or else there won't be room for...well...you know. Teehee.
See, the point is, feathers are pretty fragile. Largo is more fragile than a feather. He's got a lot of flesh. Awesome. So does a shar-pei. So does a hippopotamus. And if his flesh keeps getting hacked out by...well...swords...lances...axes...thunder...the general what have you of enemy weapons...he's going to run out of flesh. At least Janaff can prevent the hacking of his flesh better than Largo can.
I'll recap something for you. I know I just said it to you, seeing as I am, after all, the one who just said it to you, but I feel it warrants a repeat. Let's watch: Paladins can move after they attack. Other units can take their places. Largo could possibly kill of the person in front of him, leaving that slot open for another attack. Largo may be manly, but that seems to just be inviting a faster death.
That wasn't my point. Sure he's got more hp, more speed, and more luck, but Sothe is someone who can't even reach 20/1 and still has better defense and resistance.. Largo is a better unit than Sothe, but it's not saying much.
My bad,.baby. I suppose sometimes I might say the wrong name when we're doing our thing, but that never does seem to stop you, does it. Fair enough, I goofed here and will rescind my statement. I love it when you play rough.
Laguz weapons may not be the most powerful things in the game, but they get the job done, especially when laguz have high strength to begin with. In this scenario, Janaff does not have more base strength than Largo. Largo isn't inaccurate either, per-se. He's just less accurate than Janaff. And I'll reiterate that if on the receiving end of WTD (Because it is possible) It makes it difficult for Largo to do combat. When he's in WTA it's all well and good, but you can't count on that forever, especially on an enemy turn.
See above. The part where holy crap, HP may be a nice buffer but it won't save your ass.
Blah, Blah Blah. Remember the part where you mentioned Bonus experience earlier on? Yeah? I'm pretty sure you do, because you said it. Oh what the hell. Here it is:
Well the same applies here. Your insistence, in my opinion, is overruled. and sure, when Janaff is five levels higher, he's a little better, and it is mainly due to durability. I want my units to survive in their individual battles, as it keeps openings in my frontline. While Largo can flex and sex his way through an enemy line, when it comes to holding his own line, he's a glaring weakness.
So an extra +9, +13, +8 from a ranged blizzard is a threat to Janaff. I'll agree. But let's not forget that Janaff's doesn't just have the good defense, resistance and evasion which help lower that threat, he's also got, *GASP* High HP. His 54 HP is a pretty close cookie to Largo's 60. Here's the ticket though, dollface, a Janaff will come across those fairly infrequently, especially if you know how to use him. Unless you want Largo to be a useless lump on the bench, Largo's going to be on the frontlines. On the overall, Largo will be taking more damage from just normal combat than Janaff is from the bonus damage points.
Janaff is no Ike when it comes to dealing damage, but he's more than capable of dishing it out. Killing an enemy is not the be all end all of strategy, as I pointed out above. And of course Janaff isn't particularly good enough to be a tank. I never suggested that you should run around and tank him in any way shape or form. I merely stated the fact that Janaff is better at keeping your frontlines from crumbling than Largo. His durability is above average, which I believe is a good thing. Above average is a B, on our educational system. Largo's defense and resistance is FAIL, and because he has High HP, he gets a C- at best, but it's more likely to fall in the range of a Duncey D. Right, accuracy serves no purpose at all. Since I love you so much, Yzzums, I'm going to let you amend that so it actually makes sense. I know what you're trying to say, but I think you got "end-of-post" retardation syndrome. Hopefully it's temporary. Try it again for me, okay. sweetie? And I honestly don't feel the need to bring up any new points. Why? Probably because I've been drinking. Your go darling. |
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| Yzarc | Apr 24 2007, 08:54 PM Post #7 |
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Coxian
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Once he has you in bed, he doesn't need to seduce you. It's about getting up to that point, which Largo pulls off.
I agree with some of what you said. However, Largo won't need to be healed every turn. It still takes 5-6 hits from the stronger enemies to kill him and he's also got ranged axes on his side to ensure that, in a lot of cases, he won't be countered, or he can use a killer axe to almost garuntee a critical hit (one of his two hits will probably crit). He's got a number of things at his disposal to ensure that he won't get countered, including scanning the surrounding area and making sure that the enemy, if they do counter, won't hit hard enough to put him in mortal danger. Largo rapes. Once in a while, probably a few times per battle, I'll grant, he'll need a heal, which units like Mist will willingly give, and I fail to see how that is, in any way, such a bad thing. Does it provide a little bit of an extra hassle? Yeah. Does Largo rape everything he sees in one turn? Yeah. Is it worth it? Yeah. Is Janaff gay? Yeah. Does Janaff take it up the butt? Yeah. Would Largo beat Janaff in an arm wrestling contest? Yeah. I think I've proven my point.
Indeed, good sir. Largo destroys everything that approaches him. I don't see your point, are you going somewhere with this?
Oh. I guess you were actually making a point for yourself instead of for me. Damn, I was gettin' all excited there for a second. Okay, whatever, I still love you. Just, not as much. Just kidding. Ha ha ha ha, you're so adorable. Okay, back to the topic at hand! You're assuming that there is an extremely large army that Largo and like two other units are facing off against. Enemy units don't tend to come in groups larger than six and Largo won't take all six of those attacks, so while you do make a good point, Largo will destroy a unit and leave himself a little more vulnerable, he's never going to leave himself open to a mortal blow. Painful ones, yeah, but he'll live. And, in the meantime? He'll take down a massive chunk of your enemy army. Even if he DOES die in that situation, he's still more useful than Janaff, who's probably not even transformed, because at least Largo took down a good 5, 6 or 10,000,000 of the enemies. Okay, maybe I exaggerated. A little. Largo is a beast. Janaff is a bird. Largo's actually a Beorc, but Muarim is a beast and Janaff is STILL nothing but a bird. I think I've made my point.
I say "rare" because of his evasion. It's purdy good. Nowhere near godly, but it keeps him from taking it up the ass by mistake on plenty of occasions, let me tell you. Good speed + Decent luck + decent evasion supports = pretty good dodge.
I might also add that mages/sages tend to be pretty weak in the magic department. They'll hurt, yeah, but unless there's like 5 of them, they won't land a mortal blow. Also, Mages, including their skill and their weapon accuracy, will have about 115-125% accuracy. Largo's gonna have almost 70% Evasion, which means. Well, I don't have a calculator on me, but he's got a pretty good shot of dodging those mages. Not anything that you might call "reliable" or "dodge tank esque" but, at least, he's not gonna get raped left and right by mages, due to his decent accuracy.
You're right, in that it would be nice if Largo had good defense and res. It'd also be nice of Janaff could do more than dodge a few hits sometimes. Fact of the matter is, it's just not the case, so you make due with what you have. Largo's durability isn't the best, but it's nothing short of substantial. Would I rather have a 30 Defense/Res unit with 1 HP or a 60 HP unit with 1 Defense/Res? I'm gonna take the 60 HP unit because he can take some hits (albeit, about 1 or 2) and then you heal him up and he's good as new. However, the other unit can't take any hits because the second he takes damage, which wouldn't actually be that much due to the high Defense, he dies, because there's nothing to back up the Defense. So, you have it completely backwards. HP backs up Defense, not the other way around. HP is the necessity, Defense is the addition that helps.
Congratulations, you just proved that Janaff can survive two turns longer against a particular enemy than Largo can. You've proven, what? That Janaff is more durable than Largo? Honey, you're wasting your time! I GAVE you that one. From the start! What you've also done here is shown that Largo can take 3 consecutive hits from a considerable enemy. But not just three, you also noted that the paladin has 104 hit? Endgame? Against Largo's 67.5% Evasion? That's a 36.5% chance to hit, and they have to land four consecutive hits to kill Largo. You've proven that, if the enemy gets really really lucky, they can kill him. Okay. If seven enemy berserkers all land crits on Giffca, they might bring him down to 3/4 life, so Giffca has HORRIBLE durability. Now, that's assumed, I don't know how many berserker crits it would take to get GIffca down to 3/4 life, but I know that however many it takes, Giffca doesn't have bad durability. I'm exaggerating to make a point. Janaff is more durable than Largo, but Largo isn't going to die. He's got enough HP to absorb the hits he takes and enough evasion to dodge the ones he...Doesn't...Take. It sounded better in my mind, trust me.
Never doubted that Defense is good, just said that HP is more important. Janaff's Defense is better than Largo's because Janaff also has really high HP but the fact does remain that Largo is at least durable enough to not die, and really, that's all that matters.
I noticed you mentioned Generals. Largo still rocks generals in the face, even if they're using swords. What else is there? Swordmasters? Pfeh, let someone else handle those, they're not for Largo. Most paladins only have one weapon and it's usually lance or axe late game. Wyverns? You say if a wyvern switches to axe it's some bad thing? No. It just makes it less of a smack in the face. Largo will still dominate enemies he doesn't get WTA over and even some that he gets WTD against (Generals and a few Pallies). Basically, anybody but sword users, Largo dominates, and even against those, he can kill a few.
Hopefully not, sir, because they are completely invalid.
I'm agreeing with you that, when it comes to battle, Largo is as wreckless as the next guy. In other situations, he's as dignified as can be.
I'm sorry, I guess I'm lost. Let me recap. 1. You cited dictionary.com saying that Largo is a few things, including dignified. 2. You said that dictionary.com is somehow wrong and that Largo is ACTUALLY undignified, essentially nullifying your own source? 3. Then you bring up a new source, yourself, and say something that is clearly biased (Janaff is a kickass bird) 4. I challenge your challenge to dictionary.com, saying that Largo is indeed dignified, essentially trying to validate your own source. Well, one of them. 5. I challenge your source (yourself) 6. We argue a bit on you citing yourself and on whether or not Largo is dignified. Essentially, it comes down to this. You're the one who SAID Largo was dignified by bringing up dictionary.com and then you decided that, no, being dignified is too good of a thing for a character that I'm debating against. He's not dignified anymore. You know what? I'm sick of your games, your faulty sources that even YOU disagree with and, frankly, I don't know if I can trust any of your facts anymore.
I was simply pointing out that Largo isn't slow, which you seemed to disagree with. So I decided I'd point out that Largo is actually FASTER than Janaff. Make it as little of a deal as possible, it really doesn't matter, as long as you recognize that Largo is actually fast.
Hmm. I actually enjoyed the livestock. Remember when the cow's tail sorta got in my mouth and I accidentally bit down? Haha, that still brings a tear to me eye. Wait, what were we talking about again? Oh, right math. Uh, sure, let's use it.
 Yeah, his Defense and Resistance are not too good. Luckily for him, he doesn't die so it really doesn't matter, for like the seventh time.
If other characters need healing worse than Largo, then give them a heal and keep Largo safe from any possible mortal attacks. Limit him one turn so you can heal someone else instead. With the combined use of Reyson, Soren and Mist, there's a good shot that Largo will be healed when necessary, but if he can't be, it's probably fine. You'll just have to have him attack something where he's in less danger.
Haha, yeah. He's kinda dumb. OOOOHHH well. It's manly as shit and he gets ALL the ladies, but I'll admit it's not as good for taking damage. It does, however, leave him free to get that really nice speed paired with REAALLY fuckin' nice strength, which is pretty rare.
Uh, okay. You're right, Largo doesn't have very good defense. That really doesn't mean anything considering defense is a subcategory of durability, which he's not PERFECT in, but he's fine in. Also, I'm not putting enough words in your mouth so that my PENIS (see how easy it is to say it? Stop being so emberassed about our relationship.) can't fit. Let's be honest here, we know that I'm not packin' THAT much. I mean, did I just say that? Shit. No. I have a REALLY big penis everybody. A REALLY big penis. It's about 15 inches long and three inches in diameter. Did I say diameter? I meant radius. I actually meant half a radius. Yeah, it's big. *cough*
You're putting so much emphasis on individual stats that mean nothing by themselves. You've proven that Sothe has more defense than Largo? Okay. You haven't proven that he can stay alive longer, so, really, you've proven nothing.
That's because Janaff has feathers AND flesh. He's got much less flesh, but even the feathers do more to block against some stuff than the NOTHING that manly Largo has. I'm really not sure what we're arguing here. I'm saying that Largo is manly and you're saying that Janaff has feathers as defense. And that makes sense to argue that specific point. Woo!
In other words: "Yeah, Largo does more damage consistently and Janaff's weapon sucks, and Largo does have good accuracy, but SOMETIMES Largo misses."
My insistence that Janaff shouldn't be ridiculously higher leveled than the rest of your team? I'm not saying he should be underleveled, just that he should be average leveled. I don't know about you, but I never give Bonus Exp to people that are on par with the majority of the team in levels. Largo comes a little underleveled, so he gets som Bonus Exp, but Janaff isn't at any point deserving of any.
Indeed, Janaff is superior to Largo when it comes to surviving blows. What I am pointing out, however, is that these instances with the bonus damage from being a flyer bring him down to at least pretty close to where Largo is defensively, while Largo still COMPLETELY dominates Janaff offensively.
You're looking at the wrong categories again. Durability isn't about Defense and Resistance, it's about those two, HP, Luck, Evasion and the ability to fight in ranged combat (ruling out enemy counters) Largo gets an F in Defense/Res. He gets an A+ in HP which averages out to a C (since Defense and Res weigh more heavily). Then he's got decent Luck, bringing it up to a C+, pretty good evasion, a B- and he can fight in ranged combat using a ranged axe if necessary, easily keeping his durability at about an 83, or a higher end B minus. I'll even go ahead and say it's a high C for your benefit. Janaff's durability is better. He's got high HP, bad Defense and Res (not as bad as Largo, but still pretty bad), good luck, good evasion but he can't fight in ranged combat. Janaff gets a high B or maybe a low A in durability. But then let's look at offense. Largo crushes Janaff. Janaff gets a C in offense. He's got good attack speed, good accuracy and okay strength, but a shitty weapon. He can never deal substantial damage and can rarely land a OHKO. He gets a C in offense because of, basically, how shitty his weapon is. That's still not bad, right? Let's add another category. "How often can you fight?" Well, Largo can fight ALWAYS, while Janaff can fight HALF the time. That's a pretty harsh failure. Anything below a 70 is technically failing, and a 50 is a pretty significant F, moreso than Largo's F in Defense/Res. No, Janaff's offensive power is absolutely horrible, paired with the fact that he can only attack half the time. He can't help you in defeating the enemies, but WAIT, he's got some durability so he can help with that. Or you could use ANYBODY, pretty much, who has better durability than Janaff, because Janaff isn't even CLOSE to being one of the higher end units durability-wise. If you're really looking for someone to hold a line, and you decide to use Janaff because, and I quote you, "Janaff is better at keeping your frontlines from crumbling than Largo," then you should probably look again. Because a LOT of people have better durability than Largo. That's not his strongpoint. In fact, it's the only thing that he's not that good at and if the only reason you're using Janaff is because he has more defense than the person in the game with the lowest combined defense and res then you really should look harder, because so does EVERY BODY ELSE IN THE GAME. You haven't come up with a reason to use Janaff except that "He's not the worst unit in the game defensively" while I've substantially proven that Largo is easily the best offensive powerhouse in the entire game. Largo's offensive power doubles, sometimes almost triples, Janaff's and he is still able to survive 'till the end of the turn with relative ease. Largo is a beast offensively and he can hold his own defensively, while Janaff is pretty good defensively but blows cock offensively. If his only purpose in being on your team is to be a mediocre damage taker then, well, he doesn't really deserve that slot.
I'm not taking it back. Janaff's accuracy bonus (which is what I was talking about) serves, at its core, no purpose at all. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact, what I am saying is that Janaff will pretty much always hit, with or without his skill. It's actually a compliment, and I would expect you to take it as one. I mean, come on, honey, we're not into that whole thing where I insult you and you insult me and then we fuck on the bathroom floor. That's just unsanitary! What I am saying is that Janaff's accuracy is his only thing going for him offensively. He always hits, but he always does mediocre damage. So, eh. What I'm saying is, if that skill gave him extra damage, rather than accuracy, he'd be a worthwhile candidate to use. However, he's not.
Speaking of which, I need to get drunk with you sometime, you're a freakin' riot. And, okay, I think I've made all my closing points already. That being said, I've been home for about 2 and a half hourse, have been working on this post for about one and a half, I think, and have yet to masturbate. I'm gonna go take care of that and, when I come back, I expect this shit to be reffed. And by that, I mean, within a few days, I really don't care when it's reffed, I just liked feeling in control for a few seconds there. I really enjoyed this debate, though, it made me happy in the pants. Which is actually WHY I'm about to go crank one out. |
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| +Ema Skye | Apr 25 2007, 09:16 AM Post #8 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Vote time. |
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MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH
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5:55 AM Nov 28
