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| Rei vs Sentenal | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 17 2007, 11:31 PM (353 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Apr 17 2007, 11:31 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Normal rules and such. HF. |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Rei | Apr 19 2007, 04:40 PM Post #2 |
UNIVEEEEEERSE!
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Tormod, the little boy who plays with fire around beasts vs old man Tauroneo. For the sake of organization, I will title each part of my argument. Stats Tormod's Base Stats Level: 7 HP: 20.0 STR: 2.0 MAG: 10.0 SKL: 9.0 SPD: 9.0 DEF: 4.0 RES: 9.0 LUCK: 8.0 Tauroneo's Base Stats Level: xx/14 HP: 48.0 STR: 22.0 MAG: 11.0 SKL: 18.0 SPD: 13.0 DEF: 22.0 RES: 14.0 LUCK: 14.0 Analysis: Tormod's bases are well spread out, and they work very nicely with his growths. I see potential in him to become a powerful unit. At his extremely high level, Tauroneo's stats are lacking. First off, speed, the weakness all Generals have, they won't double attack. Ever. It also kills his evasion which hurts, though that is where his defense comes in. Sadly, Tauroneo has the lowest defense of all generals. His bases aren't really impressive though. Growths Tormod's Growth Rates HP: 50% STR: 20% MAG: 45% SKL: 40% SPD: 45% DEF: 25% RES: 45% LUCK: 35% Total: 305 Tauroneo's Growth Rates HP: 60% STR: 55% MAG: 5% SKL: 50% SPD: 30% DEF: 60% RES: 40% LUCK: 15% Total: 315 Analysis: Tauroneo has better growths, they are well distributed for his class type as well. The main problem is, Tauroneo can only gain 6 levels whereas Tormod can gain up to 33. Joining Situations Tormod Joins automatically at the end of chapter 15 Tauroneo is recruited near the end of chapter 21. He can tank the enemies easily, well, all except Ena. Tormod can take advantage of early game BEXP and can easily catch up with the rest of your party. Tauroneo does his job in his joining chapter, he tanks the enemies, he has his starting A level weapons as well. He can't one round enemies unless they are Myrmidons/Swordmasters. Skills Tormod: Celerity Tauroneo: Resolve Well well. Tauroneo gets to have one of the best skills in the entire game. However, there is a problem. It only activates when he is at 1/2 HP or less. And it takes his STR, SKL, and SPD, and multiplies each one by 3/2. His STR and SKL will be godly, but his speed will still not be enough to DA enemies, nor will he be dodging attacks. Sadly since he will already be taking hits to activate this, he will still be taking damage while it's up, he has next to no evasion. Celerity, this is what makes Tormod different from other mages/sages. He can actually keep up with your group. All mages and knights have 5 movement. All Sages and Generals have 6. Give that a +2 and look at that, for the entire game, Tormod will have 7 or 8 movement, he can almost keep up with your mounted units on the front lines. This can also be used for if you have someone on the front line you need to heal, he can go in and heal them. He doesn't need to leave, he can avoid attacks with a nice Combat By the time you get Tauroneo, Tormod could easily be around the same level as him, lets make Tormod a 20/13 sage. Tormod - 20/13 HP: 36.5 STR: 9.0 MAG: 22.2 SKL: 21.0 SPD: 22.2 DEF: 12.2 RES: 22.2 LUCK:16.7 To simplify things, lets create the battle stats of the time you get Tauroneo. note: all stats are rounded for simplicity and biorhythm isn't taken into effect. Tormod (Elfire/ElThunder/ElWind in order) HP: 37 ATK: 27/29/26 AS: 22 Hit: 135/125/140 Avd: 61 DEF: 12 RES: 22 Tauroneo (Silver Blade/Spear in order) HP: 48 ATK: 37/34 AS: 13 Hit: 103/113 Avd: 40 DEF: 22 RES: 14 As we can currently see, Tauroneo is the better tank. Most of the enemies in the game are melee units, so Tauroneo is a good frontline unit. However, the unit that WILL be doing the most damage is Tormod. Clearly the ATK from Tauroneo is greater, but Tormod is attacking resistance, not defense. Not just that, but Tormod CAN double attack enemies, thus, Tormod will do more hits and more damage per hit than Tauroneo. So as we see Tormod is offensive, Tauroneo is defensive. Supports Tormod has Sothe, Devdan, Reyson, and Calill Tauroneo has Rolf, and Largo wow, both have kinda crappy choices... Largo will probably not be used due to being EXTREMELY fragile. He may be fast and powerful, but his defense is ballz. Rolf would choose ANYONE on his support list before Tauroneo. Probably Shinon or Marcia. So sadly, Tauroneo won't be supporting any units. However, Tormod has a larger variety of units to support. He would probably go for Calill and Reyson. So in supports, well, Tormod can actually get supports, so he wins. From his supports Tormod gets max attack and tons of hit. He won't be missing ANYTHING and he gets another +5 attack. He's an offensive monster now. He will be DAing anything but swordmasters/myrmidons easily and be doing crazy damage at the same time. The rest of my argument Tormod joins much earlier than Tauroneo and can start his supports before you get Tauroneo. Hell, Tauroneo probably wont get any supports. Tormod will be doing more damage and dodging more than Tauroneo. Granted, Tauroneo tanks more damage, a better DEF:RES ratio. Tauroneo is more defensive in this aspect. Here let's fast forward to the end chapter. 20/20 for both characters Tauroneo HP: 51.6 STR: 25.3 MAG: 11.3 SKL: 21.0 SPD: 14.8 DEF: 25.6 RES: 16.4 LUCK: 14.9 Tormod HP: 40.0 STR: 10.4 MAG: 25.3 SKL: 23.7 SPD: 25.1 DEF: 14.0 RES: 25.1 LUCK: 19.2 Supports: Reyson: A, Calill, B. HP: Tauroneo, big time. Dmg: Tormod, big time. Hit: Tormod. AS: Tormod, big time. Avoid: Tormod, big time. CEV: Tormod (but crit evasion is barely anything since most enemies can't crit you) DEF: Tauroneo, big time RES: Tormod, big time. Tauroneo only wins defensively. He can take more hits, and live longer than Tormod. Tormod can actually kill his enemies though. Tauroneo only takes out a chunk of the enemy's HP with a hit, whereas Tormod will devastate his opponents and consistently one round them. Now enough of the paper, lets bring up the game. Oh snap, Tauroneo wont even be on your front line. His horrible movement of 6 wont catch up with your paladins' movement of 9. Tormod has 8 movement, he can move with the rest of your group easily and stay behind them to prevent getting hit. Tormod has access to long range magics, he will most likely be able to use Meteor and Blizzard since he is a fire main, and will have C wind as a Sage. So he can give out the long range punishment. Tormod can kill all Laguz without a lot of trouble. Elthunder + his supports = almost dead/dead dragon without being counterattacked. Tauroneo would get devastated by a dragon, even if he tries to use a spear, he will do near to no damage. Yet, the most common Laguz is beast. Wow, Tormod has more movement than them :D. He can DA most beasts and rape them with FIRE. Yet again, Tauroneo won't be killing them in one hit, even with Resolve. He will get DA'd everytime, even with resolve. too bad defense doesn't increase with resolve, cause then Tauroneo would take near to no damage. Yet again, the problem is, it's hard for Tauroneo to be on the front lines because of his poor movement. Logic dictates that you would give the boots to a better knight like Gatrie. The only thing that Tauroneo has is that he's more durable. Tons of defense and HP. The main problem is that Tormod is going to stay behind your main group sniping enemies from behind. If he gets hit by anything, it's maybe a bow user, hand axe, javelin, or magic user. Other than that, your front line paladins and the such will take care of the rest. The little pyromaniac boy seems to be outclassing the huge general :o! 
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| Sentenal | Apr 21 2007, 07:09 PM Post #3 |
When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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Tormod's bases are well spread out, yes, but also bear in mind how weak they are compared to the rest of your party. Mage wise, you already have two, and one of those, Soren, would be at a substancially higher level than Tormod. FE9 is kinda gay in judging expected levels, due to bonus EXP, but by chapter 16, somewhere around level 18 to promoted? Maybe higher? Tormod is almost the Nino of FE9. Think of the level your party would be on, at the time. Tormod comes, with bases spread out. Good for him. Maybe if his bases compared to that of your parties stats when you got him, we would have some talking to do. Tauroneo, being a prepromote, has very good stats compared to the party when you get him. His DEF and RES automatically make him an excellent tank. His STR is high enough for him to deal good damage, and hold heavy weapons with little problem. And he has the weapon ranks to do so. And while normally a non-factor, Tauroneo has a very good MAG base. Compare his base MAG to the MAG of other lance users. Tauroneo's base MAG beats Jill's 20/20 MAG. It beat's Oscars. Beats Marcia's. Geoffrey's ??/20 MAG beats his base by .3. Really, only Tanith has better MAG. What does this useless MAG stuff tell me? Tauroneo is one of the best candidates for the Flame Lance. So, should he need to, Tauroneo can attack that RES stat too, and he is one of the best melee users in your army who can use the Flame Lance effectively. But still, when a unit comes with 22 base DEF, and 14 base RES, that is nothing to laugh at. If you didn't want to bother training up Gatrie (not a bad option), Tauroneo is a quick, easy, no work substitute. Lets just do a quick comparision to Gatrie here. When you get him earlygame, he probably won't get any level ups. You get him again on chapter 13, so probably level 9-10. Tauroneo comes chapter 21. So, by Chapter 21, Gatrie might be... I dunno, with Gay Bonus EXP, lets be very nice and give him 16 level ups in 9 chapter. I find 16 level ups in 9 chapters to be ridiculous, but this is FE9. Gatrie, 20/5:
Well, Tauroneo has HP, MAG, SKL, SPD, RES, and LUK on Gatrie. An in STR, Tauroneo is only 1 off from Gatrie, and only one off in DEF as well. Tauroneo IS a quick, easy, no work subsitute for your Tanking needs. Not only is he probably better statistically than Gatrie when you get him, but he also has that lovely Resolve Skill. Which pushs Tauroneo's STR, SKL, and SPD to a leave FAR beyond that of Gatrie. Tormod, while he might be able to substitute Soren at 20/20, he isn't a quick, easy, no work substitute. He requires BEXP leaching, he requires babying. Here, lets just show you why. Lets say Soren is level 19. Maybe a bit higher, maybe a bit lower. Soren, Level 19:
Know, not suprisingly, Soren is crushing Tormod. Therefore, Tormod is NOT a quick subsitute for Soren. There are a good 12~ levels between the two. Therefore, Tormod is NOT an easy subsitute for Soren. I can't really see any reason why you would want to bring Tormod into your army at this point. He is weak, and he would required leaching of EXP that could be going to your unit units, and LOTS of leaching of Bonus EXP, that could be going to people like Jill, Astrid, Zihark, or the various other Good to decent units you get at the time. So, Tauroneo does a GOOD job of being a quick, easy, no work subsitute. Tormod does NOT.
Interesting here... In joining situations, you basically explained how Tauroneo does, but you left out an important part. How Tormod does. Tormod can't accord to be engaged in melee combat, that is a given. Not with his 4 DEF base. Not with his 20 HP. Not with his 26 avoid. He dies if he get attacked by a melee unit. Soren might not have much DEF himself, but at least he has Supports. He would have B Ike support, giving him 1 Atk, and 15% avoid. Against magic users, he is slightly better. The 9 RES helps him not get rocked. But the 20 HP doesn't. Tormod isn't dealing a whole lot of damage now. He has like, 13 might with a fire tome. And the weight of the fire tome brings his SPD down to 8. So he isn't doubling. Better watch him, or he might be getting doubled. Worthless unit. Why bother? He has a terrible joining situation, and the chapters afterwards aren't much better for him either, seeing the level he comes at.
Lets see just how much his stats will increase from their base level when this activates. 22*1.5=33 STR. 18*1.5=27 SKL. 13*1.5=19.5 SPD. First, lets just talk about that godly STR. 33 STR? Name a unit with better STR than that. When this activates, Tauroneo will have an Atk of 40 with an Iron Lance. 43 with a Steel Lance. Or, with his starting equipment, 45 with his Spear, and 48 with his Silver Blade. Jesus Christ. He already had decent SKL, but then his SKL becomes godly, and nothing will be dodging his attacks. Now, lets move onto the SPD. 19.5 SPD? That is better than what Tormod will have when you get Tauroneo. Unless you expect Tormod to gain 20 levels in 6 chapters. When he hits, he his for incredible damage. When he doubles, the enemy dies, no question. And he still has 24 HP, 22 DEF, and 14 RES to live off of.
Celerity is next to useless for a backlines unit like Tormod. What are you gonna do, run him out in front of everyone? Get him killed? Any sane tactican keeps their armies together. And you know what that also means? You keep your Generals with you as well. You don't leave them behind because they have less MOV. That's retarded. There is no reason for a Mage to have 8 MOV. You NEED the amount of MOV to at least equal that of your Tanks. People like Tauroneo and Gatrie. People who are on the very front, sucking in hits. Now, lets do some direct comparisions here, rather than beating around the bush. Chapter 21. Tormod would probably be close to promotion Just as a note, you are out of your mind if you think Tormod would be 20/13 by chapter 21. How in God's name do you figured that? Chapter 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and then 21. 6 chapters. Tormod comes at level 9/0. You are suggesting that in 6 chapters, Tormod gains 25~ levels?! I won't even humor that until you justify it. I challenge you. How could you possible make him gain that many levels in such a short period of time, without feeding him five billion kills, and all your BEXP, which negatively effects the growth of the rest of your army. Good fucking luck with justifying that Tormod, 19/0:
Tauroneo, XX/14
Well, Tauroneo is GOD compared to Tormod. Thank god for prepromotes vs Ests, eh? Tauroneo wins in HP (by 22), STR (by 6.6, STR-MAG), SKL (by 4.2), DEF (by 15), and LUK (by 1.8). Holy shit! Is that 22 HP, and 15 DEF? I hope Tormod has some huge victories to make up for this shit... Tormod wins by MAG (by 4.4), OH FUCK YES, YOU GO TORMOD. O wait, Tauroneo has 7~ more STR than Tormod has MAG... Okay, how bout his SPD win?! He only wins by 1.4? 1.4!?! That is hardly fuck! If Tauroneo isn't doubling, then is Tormod? And once Tauroneo's Resolve kicks in, Tormod is destroyed in comparision. EASILY.
Largo gets 15% avoid from Tauroneo, and there is a plus for supporting a Tank. You only have to be 3 spaces from him. You can see how far the units move, so you can position Largo accordingly. Plus, if Largo is EXTREMELY fragile, what is Tormod? Tormod has more choices, yeah? The only one of those choices I see being used is Reyson. If you are using Tormod, odds are, you aren't using Calill. Especially when Calill isn't even that good. Fire-Fire gives 3 ATK, and 15% hit. No avoid. So, you are still fragile as hell, just hitting a bit harder. Tauroneo is still hitting harder when you get him, and for a very long time. 22 STR>15.4+3.
Only wins Defensively? The fact that he is a tank puts him into combat ALOT more than Tormod. Tormod isn't able to be on the front line, and therefore isn't able to be on the receiving end of the enemy's attack in their phase. Tauroneo is. Tauroneo might enter combat like 3+ times on the enemies turn. And then again once on your turn. Tormod would only be able to once, on your turn. Tauroneo is entering combat about 4 times as much as Tormod. Each time, he his hitting the enemy. Not twice, mind you, but he hits about 4 times counting enemy turn and your turn. Tormod hits twice in your turn, and none in other turns. Therefore, since Tauroneo is attacking more enemies, and getting twice as many hits out as Tormod is, who is better in offense? Offensive Defense FTW.
Who in their right mind would move up so you leave behind your tanks? Hell, are you going to leave Ike behind too, since he is on foot? You move your army together. Give me one good reason why to leave Tauroneo behind. Not like there is a Tactics rank, or your army is CONSTANTLY moving, never stopping to fight.
Because those tomes are worth a shit, right? Oh wait, they suck, and you would only be able to kill off easy units with them anyway.
Less... 20/20 Tauroneo has 25.3 STR. If he is fighting a dragon, he will probably get hit pretty hard, so lets assume Resolve is on. So that makes Tauroneo's STR 38~. Now, lets say he is using a Laguz Lance. Might of 12, and gets doubled to 24 against Laguz. So, Tauroneo has 62 ATK against Dragons. His 20/20 SPD is 14.8. Resolve makes that 22.2. I don't know what SPD the Dragons have, but surely, that is enough to double attack. So, which is better? 62~ ATK, or 42~ ATK?
If Resolve puts Tauroneo at 20~ SPD when you first get him, and how could Tormod possibly double? Tormod has 25.1 SPD at 20/20. If Tauroneo is getting doubled with 20 SPD, 25 SPD is not doubling Beasts. Oh wait, maybe Tauroneo isn't getting doubled, and your just saying things. And Tauroneo already takes near to no damage. 22 DEF is alot. And with a Laguz Lance, you can have him OHKO them. But, even if he doesn't, so what? He is still entering combat much more than Tormod, therefore dealing more damage that Tormod, by the very nature of being engaged in combat on the enemy turn.
Not hard for sane people who keep their troops together. This debate assumes both of these characters are used. But it doesn't assume the tactican is retarded, and leaves a unit with 22 base DEF behind to go "LOL CHARGGE1!!!"
He has DEF. Lots of DEF. He is a very good subsitute for your other Generals. He has good base stats, and the best Skill in the game. With that Skill, he becomes a monster. Ur turn. |
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| Rei | Apr 23 2007, 11:01 PM Post #4 |
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UNIVEEEEEERSE!
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Soren is a high tier character and has amazing supports with Ike + Stefan. He has amazing
Tormod is not an Est, nor a Nino. He comes in the middle of the game, in a way he's like Heath of FE9, except better. Don't blow things out of proportion. He comes mid-game, lower level than the rest of your party, however, Tormod CAN be used in the next few chapter WITHOUT getting raped horribly. As useless as Devdan is, I must say that Tormod is one of the best candidates for getting him. Why? Because of Celerity, unlike the other people who can get him, his move outranges Devdan's attack range without boots. This chapter, you're going to want to move fast. What does that mean? Paladins, Jill, and other high mov units. Tormod is a high move unit that can easily help dispatching the physical units in your way in the beginning. You're gonna want to rush to get those chests before the thieves come. High moving character that attacks res? Sounds good to me. He can even get BEXP before the chapter.
Tauroneo doesn't have "very good stats compared to the party when you get him", even though he is level 14. He may be able to be a wall, but he still doesn't one round anything other than Myrmidons, mages (lol), and some Swordmasters.
What the... No, Magic stat isn't the ONLY thing that determines whether a character is good at using a weapon. In fact, speed is more important cause Tauroneo won't DA. Another unit who CAN DA will dish out more damage in one round should use it, not Tauroneo.
Jill doesn't need BEXP, Astrid may need a few levels to start her up, but she has paragon, not a whole lot at all. Zihark shouldn't be used when you have Stefan. You won't have to train Zihark at all, cause Stefan is omgwtfhax with his bases. Mist and Rolf will have already gotten some BEXP and will be up close to most of your team. Tormod is a good candidate for BEXP, I don't see how he isn't.
What are you talking about, substitute? No, Tormod can be fielded WITH Soren.
Ever hear of attacking from range? In the next few missions, it's full of TONS of melee units. Tormod can stay out of their ranges strategically and move in fast behind your paladins. Tormod will see a lot of action against the enemies without getting attacked back. And if he gets hit, big whoop, he won't die, he can retreat with his huge movement to Mist or a promoted Soren.
6 chapters? Have you played the game? Tormod can be used in chapter 17, the longest in the game with 4 sequences. Tons of enemies and easy experience opportunities, best news is, he is easily protected by staying behind your primary advancing unit. AKA, the Paladins. My point is, 2 levels per chapter is EASY, and the BEXP from some of these chapters is enough to boost your lower characters' EXP, including Tormod. Chapter 17 should count as about 3 chapters of EXP.
Your paladins are better for the job. They will be moving faster through the mission, supporting each other, they can one round and dodge. Oscar is the best defensive unit in the game easily. Characters with 7 movement like Ike, Stefan, Boyd, well, anyone other than Sages and Generals can keep up. Your paladins make an EXCELLENT defensive wall of RAPE. You can keep Tormod right behind them to kill off units that weren't killed in one round during the enemy's phase since your paladins wont one round ALL of them. As for Tormod moving up. Give him the knight ring, he is an excellent candidate for it due to his high ass move. He can move in front of your paladins, rape an enemy, and then behind if you are at a front with tons of units. He can do this all without *gasp* getting hit! You clearly underestimate the power of movement. Why use Gatrie, Tauroneo, and Brom to slow you down losing more BEXP when you can use better units with higher movement and with the same/better tanking abilities while being able to rape the enemy force. Fine, I overexaggerated Tormod's level by about 5 levels. He definitely won't be tier 1 by the time you get to Tauroneo though. level 8 sage would make more sense. Hell, let's make it level 7. Tauroneo xx/14 HP: 48.0 STR: 22.0 MAG: 11.0 SKL: 18.0 SPD: 13.0 DEF: 22.0 RES: 14.0 LUK: 14.0 Tormod 20/7 HP: 33.5 STR: 7.8 MAG: 19.5 SKL: 18.6 SPD: 19.5 DEF: 10.7 RES: 19.5 LUCK: 14.6 HP: Big win for Tauroneo, good shit. ATK: lol 22 str attacking def, vs 19.5 MAG attacking res? I say the magic wins. And add in devastating support bonuses, and Tormod does crazy damage. When you add in Resolve, well, Tauroneo will already be at half HP or less LOL. He can still be getting hit, and it's not very likely since Tauroneo lags behind the rest of your party. Hit: Unneeded, both units WILL be hitting. AS: Tormod, no contest. tied when Tauroneo uses Resolve (lol read comments above) Avoid: Tormod, no contest. DEF: Tauroneo, good shit. RES: Tormod. mmm, nice magic defense against long range magics that you are now starting to see a lot of without getting doubled. Good shit!
Tormod is a guy who attacks from behind another unit duhr. Yet again, you think I'm just sending out Tormod, Reyson, and Callil? No, What I'm saying is that you can advance with the best units you have, meaning Jill, Oscar, Kieran, Astrid, etc. Mainly, your mounted units who move tons of spaces. Now what can Tormod do? When he's a sage, he can heal your frontline units that don't have Sol. Tormod is behind your main advancing unit with your other units. Tormod shouldn't die, and he can still get action. lol @ not using Calill. She's one of the best Prepromo in the game, possibly the third after Titania (God) and Stefan (Jesus). She is wtfhax at usefulness [/steals Lucas' names for them]. Dude, to put things in a nutshell, she is the Harken of FE9. She has great stats, amazing weapon levels, comes with Meteor (yay!), and supports Tormod here :D. She is amazing and can be used as another Sage that doesn't need extra training. Fux Tormod only having Reyson, he gets Calill too.
BZZT, WRONGO. First off, Tauroneo won't be spearheading your entire attack force. Why the hell would he be in front? He will be lagging behind the rest of your group since you get more BEXP if you finish the chapters faster, AND now you are wasting a turn of advancement for a ton of your units instead of doing the smart thing and having your Paladins crush the front. If you don't remember, you Paladins should all have Axes, seeing as they are the best unit in the game, Tauroneo doesn't yet again, the ONLY units he will be killing will be low HP swordmasters + Myrmidons or other weakened units. Tormod can kill Generals, Paladins, Birds, Beasts, Halberdiers, Warriors, and Wyverns in one turn EASY. Taking advantage of weak ass resistance, and slow speed. In case you didn't know Sentenal, FE9 has the most durable enemies of any of the US games. Hell, they are more durable than FE6 enemies too. Obviously, magic would be a better attacking choice when the enemy has 10+ less resistance than defense. And the swarms of Wyverns being weak to wind is a nice touch for Tormod too since he can just use Elwind to rip them a new one.
Ike has more movement than Tauroneo. He can actually keep up AND fight, he also gets a permanent 1-2 range weapon later on too. And he's good enough to send with Aether and rape a huge part of the map. You're right, there is no tactics rank, but as a reward for speed, you get more bonus EXP. Tauroneo will only slow your team down, you will have your Paladins that will kill TONS of things during the enemy phase. They can also move after attack, hell, there's a reason why they are the best class in the game. Tauroneo isn't a substitute for your paladins either. The way you word things makes me thing Tauroneo is only a replacement unit  . Try to argue that killing more units is better for EXP? Well, unlike Tauroneo, your paladins WILL be DAing enemies without a skill.
Actually, they are useful. Even in the very last chapter, you can snipe the General with the wishblade from far away without getting raped by a godly S level weapon. mm, Double Meteors + Reyson being near him with supports. only boosts the hit % and enormous damage coming from his meteors or blizzards.
Seeing as dragons have MAD Defense, and nowhere near as high resistance, and Tormod having his ~42 attack, double attacking WITHOUT a skill, and NOT GETTING COUNTERATTACKED. Hell, the way you put Tauroneo out there, he's gonna get raped. Laguz are MAD strong and they WILL hit not even the evade from a support from Largo will help. 90 hit from their weapon alone, plus their godly stats. Fine, Tauroneo does more damage only when he has Resolve activated, but Tormod does more damage when Tauroneo has more than 1/2 HP, and he won't get horribly raped since he will be behind your tanks. Laguz don't have 2 range, not even breath attacks. The only Laguz in the game with 1-2 range is Naesala. I would much rather give that Laguz Lance to someone like Oscar who can DA and use Sol to regain lost HP, while dodging attacks due to ~40+ Evasion from SUPPORTS alone. Give Kieran a Laguz Lance, give Makalov or Ike the Laguz sword, give Astrid the Laguz Bow. No one else should be using the weapons other than the ones listed.
Err what? You use Resolve stats, WAY TOO MUCH. You overplay it. Even if you were to have Tauroneo be in the front and being attacked, He gets DA'd until he's around 25 HP depending on level. after that, he gets massive stat boosts, but it doesn't cut it. He STILL GETS RAPED. The way you play him is if a retard played and tried to frontline everything with your general. Sounds good until you see the movement. And as said earlier, you lose BEXP if you go slowly. kthx. As for taking no damage? Bullshit/10[/steal]. Dragons do massive damage, and even if Tauroneo has lost tons of HP for Resolve, he still gets fucked up the ass by Laguz in hard mode. Dragons rape him, Tigers deal out decent damage against him, like, 10+. Dragons dish out a LOT more. Tauroneo phailz and will get raped if he spearheads in that chapter. Not just that, but the sage boss has Bolting. He would clearly target Tauroneo to like, rape him up the butt as he's being assaulted by Laguz. Bad idea. Tauroneo's avoid isn't nearly high enough, and you rely on resolve far too much. In this case, Resolve just means you are gonna do more damage while STILL getting raped.
He becomes a monster all right, one that can still get raped. Fine Tauroneo can take hits, so what? Tormod shouldn't be getting hit, he can constantly attack each round taking advantages of bows, and physical hitters. with his CONSTANT 1~2 range. Tauroneo can get a Javelin, fine. But it's soo weak compared to Tormod's magic. From what I've seen, you downplay Magic attack. Attacking resistance is the best way to kill enemies, FE9, most durable physical enemies, what is the answer? Rape them with magic. Any good tactician would know that. Now I am sorry for so many hypotheticals in here in the later bit of my arguments, so I'll just say what I believe on it. Tauroneo is a waste of space. His movement isn't good enough to be on the front line, his tanking ability is wasted, and he wont get to use his resolve skill. Tormod can keep up with your army, so can Ike, Stefan, etc. There is no way Tauroneo can keep up, nor can he spearhead the front, so he technically doesn't get 4 combat rounds, he gets none. I would rather give that space to Elincia who can actually serve a purpose to be a second mounted healer. Tauroneo can't really be used in combat without slowing down, losing BEXP. Tormod can, he can keep up, rape units in the front, not get hit cause he's behind the wtfhax wall of Paladins in the front, and he's an amazing candidate for the knight ring. He gets two good support units, Reyson and Calill who can also keep up, and who can actually participate in combat. In short, Speedy pyromaniac > Old man who broke his hip on the way to the battlefield. |
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| Sentenal | Apr 26 2007, 04:43 PM Post #5 |
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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Yes, he does have amazing. That was my point. Soren greater than sign Tormod. Soren is really all the mage you need.
Sure he is. He can't be used in the next new chapters with without getting raped, and can't be used in the next several chapters performing decently (as in, he is only subpar then). In fact, you would probably be in the final streach of the game when he comes of age, and his Nino stats start to show.
Uhhh, good job, you can recruit Devdan? It's not like you could easily bait him or something to recruit him. You go and blow out of proportion the need for quick completion completely out of the water. You need to be racing through, using their maximum amount of MOV, every single turn? And now, a word on Bonus EXP. You argue that Tauroneo’s MOV is slow enough, so it delays you from completing chapters, and therefore you get BEXP reductions. I'm not seeing how Tauroneo's MOV is such a problem. You praised Soren earlier on, and you Praised Calill too. And even after Ike promotes, he only has one more MOV than Tauroneo. It’s not like Tauroneo has only 1 or 2 MOV, or something. Plus, just mindlessly running your Paladins ahead, leaving behind your lower MOV people, is an incredibly bad idea for a few reasons. One, it separates your Paladins from their support. As good as units like Oscar or Kierian are, you wouldn’t try and solo chapters with them. Another problem, which is perhaps bigger than the first, is that your support units would be getting left behind. People like Soren, or any archers you wanted to use, or foot units, or healers. Not everyone has the MOV to keep up. With Tauroneo’s excellence DEF, it would be a good idea to just have people camp behind him. Tauroneo has great base STR. He has very high weapon levels in swords and lances. He can use powerful weapons, and hit enemies very hard. Will he one round them? No, that really isn’t the point. He wounds them enough for other units to get the kill. That maximizes the killing potiental of your entire army, rather than just having a few units get all the kills.
Bullshit. Tauroneo's base STR and DEF are incredible compared to other people in your party. His RES is very good. His HP is great. His SKL is great. Really, its just SPD that isn't as good as other peoples. But you can't just look at SPD, and then say "Oh, its lower, he must not measure up to other people in your army", because that is bullshit.
You realize that the Flame Lance does work off the MAG stat, right? And most other melee units have shitty MAG stats. For example, Gatrie has like, 3 MAG. Tauroneo has a BASE mag of 11. Most other Lance users only get around 7-8 MAG at 20/20. It would be a waste for them to use it.
Yeah, Jill would need BEXP. She is like, level 8, when everyone else on your team would be 14~. Astrid needs BEXP to level up. Zihark is a decent unit, and you wouldn't have Stefan yet. Mist and Rolf are still lower levels, even with moderate BEXP. And, you got Kieran, and Nephenee. Plus, those are the people who would be making the most of it. You still have people like Ike, Oscar, Soren, etc, who would be taking a moderate about of BEXP as well. But, in order for you to raise Tormod as fast as you say you are, you got to give it out really liberally. He would need babying. You already have a pretty complete roster of units, so why start babying a new unit now? Especially when the ones you already have are incredible.
Just how many mages are you trying to get? You praised Calill, so you would be using both of them, AND Tormod? Kinda mage heavy, wouldn't you say? Maybe we should throw Bastian in for good measure. Seriously though, I completely understand Soren getting use. I can see Calill use, seeing her base stats. She doesn't require any work at all, really. But still, I don't see the need to train up Tormod. Lots of work, lots of babying, and in the end, he still isn't as good as Soren.
Yeah, him attacking for a ranged doesn't make him attack any stronger. Enemies with Javelins or something will tear him apart. Archers will as well. And since you are just running your Paladins like ape shit all over the place, leaving your other foot units behind, you leave holes in your defense, for those pesky melee users to get in and attack you.
Yes, I have played the game. Have you? Chapter 17 isn't worth 3 chapters of EXP. It contains 4 minichapters, yeah. Not 4 full chapters. Each one is maybe worth 1/2 of a chapter. So for chapter 17, that could be 2 chapters. So, lets amend 6 chapters to 7 chapters. WOW, big change thar. Oh wait, no its not. 20 Levels in 7 chapters is still ridiculous.
Really? Oscar's 20/20 DEF: 22.5 Kierian's 20/20 DEF: 22.7 Tauroneo's Base DEF: 22.0 Oh snap! And seeing as how Oscar and Kieran wouldn't be 20/20 when you get Tauroneo, I think it is safe to say, Tauroneo will be a better tank than those two. And, just pointing this out, you are leaving your sages behind. You know, the Sorens and Calill you have praised. Poor them, they don't get any protection. Another think: Your Foot units like Ike only have 1 more MOV than your Sages and Generals. It is NOT alot more. There is no reason you should leave any unit behind, unless you are stupid.
Why in God's name would you give it to Tormod, when that could go to someone like Ike? Or if you get pretty items like that, maybe I can get some Boots for Tauroneo. Maybe if Tauroneo had FE GBA General MOV, or I was really compelled to race through chapters for whatever reason, I'd give it more credit. But since Tauroneo has 6 MOV, I'm fine with it.
Instead of just refering to this oh so horrible BEXP lose, why don't you tell me just how much you are losing by using them. And then explain to me, if Tauroneo has 1 less MOV than Ike, his MOV makes you sacrifice all that BEXP.
I'd say 3 or 4 at the most.
Yep.
Okay, lets not stop there. Lets look at Weapons. Iron weapons shouldn't exist at that point in the game. Tauroneo has insane weapon levels, and can use practically any sword or lance he wants. He also comes with a Spear, and Silver Blade. Can use both withou penality. Spear has 12 Might on it, Silver Blade has 15. So, Tauroneo has 34 Atk with a Spear (ranged too), and 37 Atk with a Silver Blade. I'll just use your overleveled stats. 19.5 MAG. Elfire has 5 Might. So, you got yourself 24.9 Atk there. What is better, 37 Atk aganist DEF, or 24.9 DEF against RES? You can't honestly sit there, and tell me the DEF-RES gap on enemies is big enough to counter that. If you Add in Resolve, Tauroneo is practically OHKOing things. And his HP would be 24. Which is fine, when he still has 22 DEF, and 14 RES. And healers nearby incase it gets into the danger zone.
k
Yeah, read comments above. Low HP doesn't translate to lose of DEF and RES.
Totally makes up for the 15~ HP, and 11~ DEF Tauroneo is winning by... Oh wait, it isn't. 15 HP and 11 DEF>>>>14 avoid.
HUGE FUCKING HUGE OMG VICTORY HEEERRRE.
Enenmy mages in this game are slow as shit, they won't be doubling Tauroneo. And 14 RES is nothing to laugh at. I mean, 10 DEF might be something to ROFL at, but not 11 RES.
WAIT STOP. Calill's move: 6 Tauroneo's move: 6 If you use Calill, then liek, omg, you are losing BEXP, and you shouldn't be using her~ Btw, Astrid shouldn't be on your frontlines, since as how she mains bows, and Jill is best out being a flyer, flying around and teabagging things. Oscar and Kieran aren't enough units to cover everything. So, if you want Calill, then Tauroneo's MOV is fine.
Okay, so you are using her for basically Mage Jeigan utility. 20/20 wise, she isn't as good as Soren, and since Tormod is an Est, not as good as him. But you want her for her bases. Thats cool. So, I got my mages. Both of which have already gotten your seal of approval. Soren and Calill. Soren, a powerful mage, with good supports, who has been training all game to become powerful. And Calill, a prepromoted Sage, with good base stats, who requires no work to become good. Sorry Tormod, I'll keep these easy, no work, alternatives. Keep the bench warm for them.
He would be in front, because THAT IS WHERE YOU PUT TANKS. Tanks don't go in the rear. First off, I never said to get Tauroneo to spearhead an assualt, or anything like that. Tauroneo is there to TANK. He sits there, and takes hits. Then your attackers move up, easily, since your Tank already did massive damage to them. Tauroneo WON'T be lagging behind, unless you are an idiot, and his 6 MOV DOESN'T effect the BEXP you get. I'd like to see you prove that it does. Tormod will only be rounding things late game. Like, the finally 5 chapters or so. That DOESN'T make him good in offense. Not if for the majority of the game, he ISN'T. And he isn't one-rounding Paladins, I don't know where you got that idea at. And another thing. Enemies always have a good number of RES less than DEF. But 10? Maybe for things like Wyverns. Paladins, I don't think so. And regardless, Tauroneo has can use any Lance or Sword that he wants. Fighting alot of Paladins? He has that great 17 might Knight Killer. Fighting Generals? That 18 might Heavy Lance. The attack power of Mage is much weaker, with things like Elfire having only 5 might. So, yeah, I'm still making up for the DEF-RES difference.
Ike has ONE* more movement than Tauroneo. And that somehow makes him keep up incredibly better? He gets a 1-2 range weapon? No shit! Tauroneo COMES with one. You don't get MORE bonus EXP for completing a chapter faster. You get less bonus EXP for completing it too slow. Look here: http://www.eaichu250.superbusnet.com/FE9/fe9bonusexp.php That is the max bonus EXP you can get in a chapter. You can't get more BEXP, by completing it in 1 turn, for example. You get BEXP penalities for taking too long. Now, about the subsititute thing. Lets face it; Both of our characters are low tier. Hell, that is why they are in this low tier tourny. Now, why would you want to use a low tier unit? Well, I can't really think of a reason why you would want to use Tormod. He comes late, underleveled, and still doesn't beat Soren. Tauroneo can just join, and instantly be one of your best meat shields. Now, about all this nonsenses about Tauroneo vs Paladins. I am not trying to say Tauroneo to replace them. Bringing them up every single time, saying "OMG TAURONEO DOESNT HAVE PALLY MOVE", is a moot point. Tauroneo is a TANK, not a Pally. If you want to compare him to something to say why he isn't 'good', pick another Tank. Tanks don't need WTFMOV. I've been comparing your character to other sages, you compare mine to other tanks. Tauroneo isn't a Pally, so stop comparing him to one. Either compare Tauroneo to Tormod, or Tauroneo to a unit that serves a similar function.
Halfway decent for 5 whole attacks, eh? 5 Attacks. Yeah. Point made.
Dragons would have 30 DEF at the most, seeing as DEF doesn't get any higher. Its probably more like 20~. But anyway, against 30 DEF, Tauroneo is doing 32 Damage. If they have around 20, that is 42 per hit. Dragons probably have 15-20 RES. Tormod would be doing 22-27 per hit. So yeah, I'm still HITTING HARD AS FUCK. And there are only THREE dragons in that chapter, and they are SPACED out. Dragons are the ONLY thing that can do significant damage to Tauroneo. So, he just has to have about 26~ HP, and he is doing CRAZY damage. Maybe even doubling them, but I don't know their AS stat. He is doing shit tons of damage, letting them easily be killed by someone else, for nice EXP. Good shit, Tauroneo. And with Tauroneo's 26~ DEF at the time, he doesn't really care about the other Laguz hitting him. You forget, Tauroneo is a fucking Tank.
Giving to to someone else wouldn't get you as much Atk. And with 22 SPD, that is probably enough to double them. Not to mention, of all those that you mentioned, they can use another Laguz killer, other than the Laguz Lance. And Tauroneo can use it easily. And with it, Tauroneo outdamages Tormod against Dragons. That counts more than anything else on this point.
No more than you using MOV. Tauroneo's Resolve SPD will keep him from getting doubled. Hell, only the quicker, weaker enemies will be doubling him. Like, Ravens, or Swordmasters. 15 endgame SPD keeps him from getting doubled by all but the fastest ones. And his 26 DEF never goes away. So people can hammer on him forever, and he will either take no damage, or next to no damage. With Tauroneo's DEF, it is impossible for him to get RAPED. Now, Tormod taking melee attacks, that is rape. Melee attacking 26 DEF, is not. And, as said earlier, 6 MOV isn't making you lose BEXP. Not when you Calill's 6 MOV isn't wasting BEXP. Not when Ike's 7 MOV isn't. Sorry.
Yeah, all 3 Dragons deal out massive damage to him. TIGERS, might deal out like, 5 or something. Anything lower, like sword users, clink. Lance users? Negligible. Tauroneo's 16 endgame RES can take that bolting. That is better RES than Oscar, Kieran, or Jill. Only one less than Ike. His RES is fine, so he doesn't really have to fear that bolting.
Tormod attacking bows would require him to go infront of his protectors to attack at close range. And on the enemy turn, they will attack so Tormod takes the hit. And that sucks, with his crappy DEF. Tauroneo can be hit on all day, and not die. Javelins are also stronger than your magic, dude. A Javelin is stronger than Elfire. So yeah. And the Spear Tauroneo comes with? That has 12 might on it, stronger than any fire Magic you could get. Magic in this game has poopoo Atk.
I down play magic, because tomes have shit attack power. In this game, yeah, units have more DEF. But there is another difference you completely ignore. In GBA FE games, enemies are weaker. But you use Iron Weapons the whole game for your funds, and because of things like CON. In this game, there is no Funds. CON=STR. People are using heavy weapons like crazy. Iron Weapons don't exist in your army after earlygame. So yes, their stats get stronger. But, so do your weapons. So it balances out. Otherwise, all your units would be doing shit damage,
Only morons put Tanks in the back. This is basic FE stuff. Tanks go in the front. Hell, Oswin gets massive use in FE7, when that game has a Tactics Ranking, and Oswin had LESS MOVE. Bottem line, is that GOOD tacticans make use out of tanks. Bad ones don't. And btw, if Tauroneo doesn't get to make use of his Resolve Skill, YES! That means nothing can break the impenatrable wall that is Otto Von Bismark... I mean Tauroneo!
You don't want to use Tauroneo because he has 6 MOV. Calill also has 6 MOV. If a double standard didn't exist, you wouldn't want to use Calill. But you do. Apparently, she can keep up. And Tauroneo, who has the same MOV, can't. Tauroneo can easily be using in combat. He doesn't cost you any BEXP. I'd like for you to show me proof that 6 MOV costs you BEXP. Tormod can keep up with your 2 Pallies up front, but 2 units isn't a wall, and will get him attacked. So basically, here are our arguements right now. Yours: Tormod has good lategame stats, and should therefore be trained up. He has good MOV, therefore he can keep up with Paladins. Tormod attacks RES, therefore he deals alot of damage. Tauroneo's MOV keeps him out of combat, and lowers BEXP. Mine: Tauroneo comes with great bases. He is one of your BEST tanks. His high STR and weapon levels allows him to use powerful weapons, and deal alot of damage. His resolve SKL turns him into a monster. His DEF/RES combo makes him incredibly durable. His MOV is fine. Now, most of your argements are somewhat true statements. Somewhat true. Still not worth training up. But your main points against my character, which your entire arguement hinges upon, is that Tauroneo can't keep up. His 6 MOV and 22 base DEF make it foolish to leave him behind. You have not addressed this. 6 MOV is the same as other units you want to use, so by your logic, it is enough to keep up. You create double standards, and ignore that Tauroneo's MOV is fine. |
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12:22 AM Nov 28
