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| Reikken vs Inui; Winners finals | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 25 2007, 09:18 AM (552 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Apr 25 2007, 09:18 AM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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This will be a five post debate. Uh oh! I'm sticking with Rolf. |
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| Reikken | Apr 27 2007, 12:22 AM Post #2 |
 
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FIVE?!?!?! h4x. Well, I'll stick with Muarim, then. So I have the honor of opening, eh? Well, let's see... In the beginning...there was Rolf. And he was level 1. On chapter 9. And he had a Rolf's Bow. Anyway, let's see how good Rolf is with his bow. 13 atk, 6 AS That would be about right for chapter 1 as that's about what Oscar has then. Unfortunately, for ch 9, it's massive suck. How's he doing on defense? 18 hp, 6 def, 2 res, 16 avo, 6 AS. That's worse than people on chapter 1. So you know it sucks hard for ch 9. Anything with 15 atk or 11 mag atk can kill him in 2, and his avoid is suck as well. And that 6 AS means anything with 10 AS or more can double him. Massive suck again. He looks pretty sucky. ~5 combat chapters later, on ch 16, Muarim joins. How does he fare? Offense, demi: 29 atk, 17 AS h4x. That's as good as Kieran about 4 chapters later (since 17 has multiple parts), a few levels after he takes a jump up with promotion. Oscar, who I compared Rolf to, doesn't get that much atk until...sometime later. Whenever he reaches 20/6. ...ch 20 or something. Offense, full: 32 atk, 18 AS lol, even moar h4x Defense, demi: 45 hp, 14 def, 7 res, 45 avo h4x again. very high hp + high def. Again, that's about as good as Kieran about 4 chapters later. That's unsupported Kieran, though. Supported Kieran will have a nice avoid lead in the upper teens or so. Defense, full: 45 hp, 15 def, 8 res, 47 avo Not a huge improvement, but still better. Anyway, Rolf sure as hell isn't gaining 16/19 atk, 11/12 AS, 8/9 def, and 27 hp in 5 combat chapters, so yeah. Rolf ftl. Muarim >>> Rolf. Even if he had 3 A supports or something crazy like that, he would still be losing badly. You don't have any reason at all to add Rolf to your team. "Hey, let's add a crap unit to the team so it can suck up vast amounts of exp and still be inferior to Muarim." Muarim, on the other hand, is instant uber. Ready to RAPE as soon as you get him. Now, about those supports, not that they make any difference. Just that this is too short for a first post, I think. Maybe. Well, even if it's not, whatever. Rolf's affinity is wind. Hit and avoid. Not the best. Not many want hit. All of Rolf's supporters either have multiple better options or suck. -Rhys... is Rhys. And he kinda sucks. lol, AS -Shinon is an inferior version of Rolf. And he REALLY sucks. -Marcia is good, but she doesn't want to support Rolf. She has Kieran, who gives the same bonuses but is mounted like Marcia and so can stay with her better, and Tanith, who is a flier like Marcia and so can go with her everywhere. And Tanith has that smexy earth affinity. Kerian and Tanith both want those supports as well. And the support wouldn't work well anyway. Rolf is on foot, and Marcia has more move and can fly. -Mist is good, but she has like 4 others she would rather support. Mordecai gives her awesome water-water full atk full def bonuses, Jill gives full def plus some avoid, Boyd gives full atk, and Titania gives full def. -Tauroneo comes later, so he can't help much anyway. Muarim's affinity is thunder. Defense and avoid. Quite defensive. -Zihark wants this support as he becomes an avoid tank with it. -Largo's durability is pretty meh, so he wants this support for the nice durability boost it gives. Muarim's supports are more helpful despite his list being shorter. Now for something else. Rolf has 6 -> 7 move. Muarim has 9 move. Muarim is significantly more mobile. Rolf has 4 -> 5 bld. Muarim has 44. Rolf can hardly shove anyone, and he can't rescue anyone ever. Muarim can even shove mounted units, and he can rescue nearly any non-mounted unit aside from like transformed Giffca or Mordecai. Rolf attacks at 2 range. Muarim attacks at 1 range. Rolf doesn't take counterattacks as often, so it helps his durability slightly (very slightly. Attacks on enemy phase are what you need to be worrying about, not on player phase when you're the one in control.), but he can almost never do any counterattacking. Muarim is much much better at counterattacking. O snp. Muarim > Rolf. |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| +Ema Skye | Apr 30 2007, 08:27 PM Post #3 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Yeah. Some long-lasting pleasure for you and me, right? 
Boohoo, a low tier is losing to top tiers when he first joins. Thankfully, it's not about him outdoing Gods, but it's about him outdoing Muarim, which he shall be doing when our beast friend joins.
Muarim is good when he joins. Good job.
Oh ya? </SAS> Rhys 3/6/9 Fire Shinon 0/2/4 Thunder Marcia 2/5/8 Fire Mist 1/3/7 Water Tauroneo 1/3/5 Thunder Inbuilt Support Bonuses Oscar: 10% Boyd: 10% Shinon: 5% Really now, Rolf's supports are super fast and he has those sexy inbuilt bonuses when needed. Even if he doesn't get A's, he can just score something like 5 C's to get bonuses often. He has such a huge list that he's bound to get a few supports, as your team size is limited. You can't have all of his support partners be full up if he's on the team. Lethe 3/6/9 Heaven Zihark 3/6/9 Earth Largo 1/2/3 Wind You forgot one of your own unit's supports? For shame, Reikky-chan!  He supports Zihark, but that support is slow as shit. He won't have an A until Chapter 24. Largo joins super late, even later than Tauroneo, and you say Tauroneo joins too late for Rolf? Lol funnay. At least Tauroneo can take hits and has Resolve. Largo is just balls. Zihark's other supports are awfully slow, but both Ilyana and Brom are a bit better than Muarim at least, and support Zihark earlier. Rhys's AS isn't as bad as people think, so why can't Rolf support him and be fine? This data shows Rhys WITHOUT any support bonuses. It also doesn't take forged tomes or bands into account. Data From Chapter 26 Average Swordmaster Attack Speed: 22 Average Warrior Attack Speed: 14 Average Tiger Attack Speed: 16 Average Cat Attack Speed: 17 Average Sniper Attack Speed: 15 Average Sage Attack Speed: 15 Average General Attack Speed: 8 Average Bishop Attack Speed: 11 Average Halberdier Attack Speed: 15 Average Wyvern Attack Speed: 13 Average Paladin Attack Speed: 17 Bertram's Attack Speed: 22 Rhys's 20/15 Attack Speed: 17 Light, 15 Shine Average Warrior Hit: ~90 Average Swordmaster Hit: ~127 Average Wyvern Lord Hit: ~100 Rhys's 20/15 Evade: 56 Light, 52 Shine Average Swordmaster/Sniper Critical: 25 Average Swordmaster/Sniper Attack: 23 HP: 35 Critical Evade: 22 Defense: 10 Data From Chapter 27 Average Swordmaster Attack Speed: 21 Average Warrior Attack Speed: 12 Average Tiger Attack Speed: 18 Average Cat Attack Speed: 19 Average Sniper Attack Speed: 14 Average Sage Attack Speed: 14 Average General Attack Speed: 8 Rhys's 20/17 Attack Speed: 18 Light, 16 Shine Average Warrior Hit: ~90 Average Swordmaster Hit: ~125 Rhys's 20/17 Evade: 60 Light, 56 Shine Average Swordmaster/Sniper Critical: 24 Average Swordmaster/Sniper Attack: 24 HP: 37 Critical Evade: 24 Defense: 11 Rhys does way better than people think. I should have taken Rhys, damnit! Well, anyways...
Oh, damn. Muarim is mobile when transformed, and Rolf just laaaaaaags behind. Lower movement doesn't stop Soren from being a God, does it? Rolf gets his job done; he kills shit when he attacks. Let's be super generous to Rolfy-chan and have him as a level 1 Sniper when Muarim joins you. He gets tons of experience from kills early on, and there's quite a lot of bonus experience to feed on. And those Raven's in that boat chapter give him almost a whole level up from a single kill. Muarim is so much better than him, anyways. HP: 32.4 STR: 15.6 MAG: 5.8 SKL: 18.5 SPD: 17.5 LUK: 11.6 DEF: 13.7 RES: 8.7 Rolf with a Steel Bow has 25 Atk. Rolf has 1 more AS than Muarim. Rolf has more Evd. Rolf can actually have supports. Rolf has a massive Crit lead. He's not so bad off after promotion, is he? Let's think about later portions of the game... Rolf will gain levels faster, so the level lead will dwindle. Muarim's stat leads will shrink a bit. There are also many situational things to look at. 1. Ranulf is easily Muarim's superior, and thus gets that Demi Brand over him most of the time. Ulki is possibly better as well due to his skill and mobility. Mordecai could be better, too, due to being a super tank. 2. Rolf has the option to use the very powerful Silver Bow for his Atk to skyrocket, while Muarim is locked to his claws forever. Rolf can also use the Laguz Bow to rape Laguz, and the Killer Bow for monsterous Crit. He also can attack from three spaces away with a Long Bow and four spaces away with the Double Bow later on. 3. Rolf will always have much better offense against anything that flies, which includes the hordes of Wyverns, groups of Ravens, and small flocks of Pegasi. 4. Maurim sucks without the Demi Brand because he spends half of the battle doing nothing and has lower movement. Rolf has no such problem. 5. Rolf stomps Maurim down in Crit. Most importantly, Rolf is significantly cuter. 
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| Reikken | May 2 2007, 03:38 AM Post #4 |
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For reals
Muarim, however IS outdoing gods when he joins. Rolf isn't even matching them as they were several chapters ago. Outdoing gods vs losing horribly to them...hmmm... Wait. Rolf outdoing Muarim when he joins? Muarim is outdoing the likes of Oscar and Ike by a good margin, so unless Rolf is completely destroying everyone...Oh, that must have been a joke.
lol, understatement/10
5 Cs? Not a chance. Rhys being used is unlikely to begin with, and then the chance of him being used at the same time as Mist is pretty much zero. Shinon should never be used. Ever. Marcia will only have open supports if you're not using Kieran and Tanith, and even then, she won't be in range often. Mist isn't supporting Rolf unless you're only using 1 of Boyd, Jill, Titania, and Mordecai. So never. Tauroneo can support Rolf if you're using him, but he's low tier, so that's not likely.
Yeah, I typically don't include BS like a certain few others who shall go unnamed. But if you want me to... When you're using Lethe, Muarim is guaranteed to get her support. Ike will never support her ever, and Lethe-Ranulf gives probably the worst bonuses of any support in the game. 2, 5, and 7 avoid at C, B and A respectively, and that's it, since the rest is a 100% worthless hit boost. And he also joins super late. That leaves only 2 viable supports for Lethe, and each character can have at least two supporters.
The difference is that Muarim is godly until late in the game, so he doesn't care that his Largo support isn't until late. Rolf's shitty start means he needs all the help he can get as soon as possible, and Tauroneo doesn't give him that. Funnay indeed.
What you talkin bout? Largo is amazing. He has h4x offense. His durability isn't the best, but beastly hp + Muarim support means he's still doing fine there. And anytime Tauroneo is used, Largo is even better since he's guaranteed another support as Tauroneo only has two. Zihark benefits as much from B Muarim as from A Ilyana, and B Muarim comes quite a bit earlier than A Ilyana. In fact, A Ilyana doesn't come until A Muarim. So for Zihark, Muarim >> Ilyana. He has room to support both Brom and Muarim, and A Muarim B Brom gives better bonuses than A Brom B Muarim. And Brom doesn't care about anything past B since he has beastly def, and A isn't getting him any more attack.
His supports hardly boost his durability at all. His affinity has no defensive bonuses, and his supporters' affnities have only 1 defensive bonus at the most. No one else really wants to support him, either. Well, Mia would love a Rhys support since her str sucks, but that gives him 0 durability. For this, since Rolf is assumed, he would be getting +7 avoid max. Anyway, so he doesn't get one-rounded. Unfortunately, enemies don't come one at a time. Also, he's dealing with crappy durability the entire time: 20/1 with Light, B Rolf: 11 AS, 6 def, 29 hp, 41 avoid Some ch 17 paladins have 15 spd. Nearly all the myrmidons And the other healer is dominating him. He doesn't deserve a spot on any team.
Actually Soren isn't top tier... If he was mounted, he would be top tier. Anyway, this is about Rolf and Muarim. The point is that Muarim is way more useful than Rolf.
Okay, sure. Just that Rolf's team has 1400 less bexp.
When he promotes in chapter 16, yeah, he's okay. It's just his team that's worse; he himself is fine. Still alot worse than Muarim, but yeah, he's okay. 1 more AS? More like 0.5 more/0.5 less AS I wouldn't call a 1.6 avo lead more evd. Especially when it can also be a 0.4 loss. Yes, he can have supports, but the only one who would support him is Rhys, who sux
Well, actually, not rly. The level lead goes down, but as for stats...well, check out their growths: Muarim: 70% str, 60% def, 45% res Rolf: 40% str, 30% def, 25% res Muarim has uber-beastly growths. Highest in the gaem, tied with Tibarn or something like that. Muarim has 11 more levels, Rolf has 19. Even by 20/20, which Muarim is reaching way earlier, Muarim's leads in str and def/res have actually gone up. And Muarim's str cap is 30 as compared to Rolf's 25, so he has loads of room to be RNG-blessed, whereas if Rolf gets blessed, he just cap rams. Rolf's spd growth isn't much lower, though, so his spd is going up as compared to Muarim's, but Muarim has enough spd to double nearly everything anyway, so that's just serving to increase his avo, which Muarim counters like x2 with his Zihark support. Also, hp: Muarim: 145% hp Rolf: 60% hp ya rly Rolf does win in mag, though. Muarim: 5% mag Rolf: 20% mag 
Ranulf actually isn't better. He's like the Tormod of the laguz. He has nice stats for his level, but his supports suck, and he comes underleveled as compared to your other laguz. He comes in at the same level as Muarim, except 10 chapters later. Muarim will be about level 15 by then. Muarim, B Zihark, Demi Band 33.2 atk, 20.3 AS,, 53.7 hp, 18.6 def, 10.7 res, 68.7 avo Ranulf, Demi Band 30.0 atk, 19.0 AS,, 46.0 hp, 20.0 def, 9.0 res, 51 avo And he beasts Ranulf in str/def/res growths, and his support still has another level to grow, so he's not losing any ground until after his level caps Ulki's class kinda sucks stat-wise, so he would have 3 less atk than Muarim even if they had the same str. His str transformation bonus is 1 less, and his beak has 2 less might. And he has problems doubling things. His spd does get a bit better, but not until really late. His defense is fine; it's his offense that sucks, so his skill isn't helping him not suck. Well, I guess it helps counter his bow weakness somewhat. For mobility, yeah, he can indeed fly, but his move is also 1 less. Muarim beats Mordecai in offense against most things due to having spd, so he would be better with it.
Muarim has the option of just transforming normally, which boosts str significantly as well all his other stats by a bit, and it's also free. Cool, 3 spaces away, but I don't see what good that is.
Muarim can't one-round wyverns, but he can counterattack, and they have alot of mobility, so he can draw them in and counterattack on enemy phase, and then kill one off on player phase. Rolf isn't helping kill them any more than Muarim is.
His move is still >= Rolf's, so that's not a problem. Rolf is doing nothing half the time anyway, so that's also not a problem. It's not that Rolf doesn't have the problems; it's that he always has them. Also, note that when untransformed, Muarim's transform gauge goes up by 4 per turn instead of the 3 when transformed, and battles increase the the guage by 2 instead of the 1 when transformed. He's still fighting way more than Rolf is, even without the Demi Band, and his stats are even beastlier. Also, when Muarim is "doing nothing", he can still shove nearly anyone due to massive wt. And if Rolf is using other bows, Muarim is getting Smite, since he's by far the best for that. No one else has nearly as much wt except Mordecai, and he already has it.
Killing things in two hits >>>> needing a crit
Psh, Muarim is much manlier. 
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| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| +Ema Skye | May 2 2007, 08:48 PM Post #5 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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This is pretty lopsided. 
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4:42 PM Nov 27
