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| Yzarc vs Nick | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 25 2007, 07:18 PM (287 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Apr 25 2007, 07:18 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Hooray! |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Yzarc | Apr 26 2007, 07:47 PM Post #2 |
Coxian
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It seems to be pretty popular to start off a debate saying something along these lines:
I guess I could say Haar is a manly Wyvern Rider and Shinon is gay and has pink hair. But I won't stoop to that level. Nay, I'm going to start off this debate right. Good luck, sir. May the best debater win. It also seems pretty popular to start off the debate with one of two things: Starting stats or ending stats. However, I've concluded that looking at such stats alone is meaningless. Instead, let's start off with something that most people don't even dream of touching until the last post. Supports. Who can Shinon support? Gatrie, Janaff and Rolf. Who can Haar support? Jill and Makalov. Now, I think it goes without saying that Janaff and Rolf suck. I don't even think I have to prove that. They're both on the bottom tier list. Just the same, both Haar and Shinon suck, but my intention is simply to prove that a runthrough using Haar as a Low Tier is better than using Shinon as your Low Tier. That being said, let's make it clear that this particular playthrough is considered a "challenge" runthrough, where you purposefully handicap yourself by using a single Low Tier unit. You COULD add another if you wanted to, but you'd be stupid. That being said, Shinon should not support Janaff and Rolf simply because you shouldn't play the game using both Shinon and either Janaff or Rolf. Pick one Low Tier and stick with it, that's what I always say. Of course, by "always," I mean once, just now. Regardless, Shinon is left with Gatrie and Gatrie has plenty of better options. Astrid and Marcia come to mind. Illyana is also better than Shinon. Shinon MIGHT get a Gatrie support due to both Astrid and Marcia having greater movement but then you look at Astrid's and Marcia's support options. Astrid can support with Makalov, Sothe and Gatrie. She'll want Makalov and Gatrie. Marcia can support with Gatrie, Kieran, Rolf and Tanith. Well, Rolf's out of the question, he's Low Tier. She'll definitely want Kieran and Kieran wants her too. Now it's between Gatrie and Tanith. Tanith is good and has equal range, but there's just something about using both Marcia and Tanith that doesn't suit me right. Regardless, I'll give it to you that Gatrie MIGHT not support Marcia. If that's the case, he'll have an open slot, which Illyana might also take. Worse comes to worse, Shinon supports Gatrie. I will, however, note that Gatrie can support better people. He won't, however, give Shinon the A. So, we've concluded that Shinon can get a B Support with Gatrie and essentially no more. Haar, however, supports Jill and Makalov. Both of these are good units. But, hell, Elincia supports with Ike, that doesn't mean she'll ever support with him, you know what I mean? I'll have to show that Jill and Makalov will both want a Haar support. Jill can support Lethe, Haar and Mist. Mist is fucking good. Jill will support with Mist. Whether or not that is an A or a B is up in the air, because Mist will also want to support Boyd. Boyd is closer to Mist in movement range, so I think we can assume that Mist will go A Boyd, B Jill. Now it's between Lethe or Haar. Well, who is she more likely to be near? Lethe, who has equal movement SPEED, half the time, or Haar, who has equal movement speed, all the time, and can fly over shit like she can. Jill is more likely to be near Haar. She'll give Haar an A Support, easily. But, just to make sure you don't come back and say something like "No, actually, Jill will WANT to be with Lethe," I've decided to show you, statistically, why it's better for Jill to be with Haar, over Lethe. Lethe gives Jill 1 Defense, 15% Hit and 7% Evasion. Haar gives Jill 1 Defense, 7% Hit and 15% Evasion. Now, 8% Evasion > 8% Hit, easily. For that reason, Jill will want to support Haar instead of Lethe. What about Makalov? He can go with Astrid, Haar or Bastian. Well, Bastion blows. He's easily one of the worst characters in the game and Makalov won't even think about touching him. He does, however, have Astrid, who he's likely to A Support with. I can deal with that, because that leaves him with room for a B and Haar fits right in. Haar with an A Support with Jill and a B Support with Makalov (which is easy to make happen) gets 2 Attack, 2 Defense, 2 Resistance, 12% Hit and 25% Evasion. Shinon with a B Support with Gatrie gets 2 Defense, 2 Resistance, 5% Hit and 5% Avoid. They both get the same bonuses, except Haar gets 2 more Attack, 7% more Hit and 20% more evasion. Looking only at supports, Haar wins, significantly. Looking at actual stats now, Haar has a 6.5 lead in HP, a 5.1 lead in Strength, and a 5.6 lead in Defense. Shinon has a 3.7 lead in Skill, 5.1 lead in Speed, 1.8 lead in Res and a 2.3 lead in luck. Shinon's skill and luck amount to about 8.5% in Hit over Haar. However, let's consider that Haar has a 12% Hit boost from supports and Shinon only has a 5% Hit boost. That means Shinon's Hit lead over Haar is about 1.55%, which is completely negligable. Shinon's lead in speed, paired with his lead in luck, amount to 12.5% in evasion. Then we remember that Haar has 25% bonus evasion from supports while Shinon only has 5%. That means that Haar has 20% more evasion than Shinon from supports while Shinon has 12.5% more from stats. That means that, ultimately, Haar will have 7.5% more evasion than Shinon. That means that Shinon's leads amount to 5 more Attack Speed, 16.85% more Crit, 1.55% more hit, 1.8 more Res and a 2.3% better chance to dodge a critical attack. Haar's leads amount to 6.5 more HP, 7.1 more Strength (Support included), 5.6 more Defense, 7.5% more evasion, weapon triangle manipulation (decided to put it in here since I did add Shinon's 15% crit in his leads over Haar). Defensively Haar has 6.5 more HP, 5.6 more Defense and 7.5% more evasion. Shinon has 1.8 more Res and 2.3% better chance to dodge a critical attack. It will take a lot of magic hits for 1.8 more Res to counterbalance 6.5 more HP, and even then, Haar still has ridiculously high Defense and really good evasion. Haar is, undeniably, more durable than Shinon. Offensively This is difficult to say. Shinon has significantly more Attack Speed and Critical strike chance, but Haar deals immensely more damage and has weapon triangle manipulation (Lances and Axes). Both are basically equal on accuracy except that Haar is more likely to have WTA, bringing him up to being actually superior to Shinon here, but when we consider that most bows have more accuracy than most axes, we'll realize that Shinon still has a little bit of accuracy over Haar. However, Haar will consistently be using more powerful weapons than Shinon. A Silver Bow does 13 damage and a Steel Bow does 9. I use those two because they're the two bows that Shinon is most likely to use. A Silver Axe does 16 damage and a Steel Axe does 11. That's 2-3 more damage on top of Haar's 7 point lead. He'll be doing 9-10 more damage than Shinon on any given hit, and has weapon triangle manipulation to perhaps add more to that. And I think that's what I'll leave Post Number One at. Notice I never once pointed out 20/20 stats or beginning stats. I'll leave that shit up to you, or you can just counter all my points. Whatever floats your boat, dog. |
  
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| Nick | Apr 29 2007, 04:29 PM Post #3 |
Brit
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An original layout indeed. Good luck to you too, Yzarc.Actually, I wouldn't say taking Rolf is "stupid" as such, if you had Shinon on your team. It gives them both a rather nice boost, and the fact that Rolf also boosts the fighting abilities of two other good units adds to his value. Shinon and Rolf supplement each other's fighting abilities nicely, and as they are both backline units, it's hardly creating a hole in your lines. Oh, I always seem to address points before they're made. Anyhow, onto Gatrie, I must say that I rather disagree with your statements. Astrid and Marcia may come to mind, but the prospect of a flyer supporting a tank is a bit strong, when Marcia can support Kieran and Tanith and utilise those supports more efficiently. As for Astrid, it's a similar story, she is mounted on a horse and with 3 more movement than Gatrie is likely to be racing ahead of him. I'd say those supports are much, much more unlikely to take effect than Shinon and Gatrie is. As for Illyana, I daresay that she and Gatrie are likely to support, but this leaves Gatrie with Shinon for a B, a B which I'm sure he will take happily. There I go again, addressing points before they're made. Oh well, what's done is done. Something about Marcia and Tanith that doesn't suit you right? That's hardly an excuse. Your personal preference is not what makes a support viable or not, and Marcia and Tanith is an excellent support for the purposes of the two units and the rather nice boosts it gives. So I'm afraid I'll have to call a void there, no Gatrie with Marcia. Actually, you did all the concluding, and we all know that jumping to conclusions does nobody any good at all. Rolf is actually a pretty darned decent sharpshooter with his superb critical ratio, and Shinon and Rolf combined make for a rather good backline. I have to say that I disagree with you there. Using your own idea of comparing the boosts units get from one another, I have to say that I think Jill and Mist would rather A support than Mist A support Boyd and Jill A support Haar. The boosts from Jill A Mist are 1 attack, 3 defence and 7 avoid. The boosts from Jill A Haar are 1 defence, 7 accuracy and 15 avoid. The boosts from Mist A Boyd are 3 attack, 1 defence and 7 accuracy. Now, let us see. If we compare Jill A Mist and Jill A Haar first, there is the obvious three point defensive lead over the one point defensive lead. The boost of 1 point of attack, in this instance, is definitely more welcome than the 7 points of accuracy. Which leaves us with the obvious victory for Haar with 15 points of avoid to 7. Two victories to one, my friend, I think Jill would rather A Mist. As for the other support (Mist A Jill or Mist A Boyd), we have the three points of attack beating the one point of attack and the three points of defence beating the one, so they cancel out. We are then left with seven points of avoid to seven points of accuracy, and in your own words (although, I must note, the notion of 8% is incorrect, as decimals are ignored rather than rounded up) "8% Evasion > 8% Hit" or rather, for previously stated reason, "7% Evasion > 7% Hit". So I think I would only give Haar a B with the girl. Malakov I shall give you a B with as well, I agree with you there. Now for some rewording of your paragraphs. I wonder where you got the attack from? Neither Wind nor Thunder affinities give any kind of attack, so far as I know.
Well, I say, I am rather stunned at this large and intimidating looking block of text. Particularly from the man who said "However, I've concluded that looking at such stats alone is meaningless." You have looked at supports, it's true. But then ploughing straight into level 20 stats? You're doing it all wrong, as these stats are only really applicable for a very small portion of the game, and do not reflect much. As such, they possess very little value, as I had believed you thought after reading your comment. I think it would be wiser to go back to these later, after looking at how our heroes fare in-game. Now, when Haar arrives, it's several chapters after Shinon, who is also underlevelled, and I think it's safe to say that Shinon could be at ??/08 - and, of course, given the time he has been there for, have some of those supports you were waffling about earlier. He will, in the space of the time he has been present, have gained an A support with Rolf and a C support with Gatrie. Haar, of course, will have zilch by way of supports. Let's look at actual battle parameters, shall we? Haar will have his Brave Axe, and Shinon . . . well, let's give him a Killer Bow. No expenses spared at this point. Shinon ??/08, A Rolf, C Gatrie, Killer Bow, in one-space proximity of Rolf. HP: 37 Mt: 23 Hit: 131 Crit: 60 AS: 18 Def: 15 Res: 11 Avd: 65 Crit Ev: 12 Haar ??/11, Brave Axe. HP: 47 Mt: 31 (x2) Hit: 109 Crit: 9 AS: 17 Def: 20 Res: 10 Avd: 46 Crit Ev: 12 Well, it certainly looks to be in Haar's favour here. He has rather impressive leads in HP and defence, although Shinon softens the blow slightly by winning by a very small margin on resistance and having a large victory on evade. Offensively . . . Haar will always be striking for lots of damage twice, sometimes four times, whereas Shinon will only attack twice. He does, however, critical very often, and if he only attacks once he will more likely critical than not. He doubles more often than Haar, although it's only a one-point difference. Now, let's fastfoward, assuming that Haar is now at level 15 and Shinon is at level 14. Shinon ??/14, A Rolf, B Gatrie, Killer Bow, in one-space proximity of Rolf. HP: 42 Mt: 26 Hit: 142 Crit: 62 AS: 21 Def: 19 Res: 14 Avd: 76 Crit Ev: 14 Haar ??/15, B Jill B Malakov, Silver Axe. HP: 50 Mt: 39 Hit: 128 Crit: 10 AS: 18 Def: 24 Res: 13 Avd: 69 Crit Ev: 13 Well, Haar still wins defensively with 8 points of HP and 5 points of defence beating Shinon's point of resistance and 8 points of evade. I must concede there. Offensively, however . . . Shinon is more likely to be double attacking, so let us have a look at some scenarios. 1. Shinon and Haar both single attack, Shinon criticals (more likely to than not) Shinon does DOUBLE Haar's damage! The enemy would need 19 defence to bring Shinon's damage down below Haar's here. 2. Neither double, Shinon does not critical. Haar does more damage than Shinon. 3. Shinon double attacks and criticals once, Haar does not double attack. Shinon does, this time, 104 damage to Haar's 39. If an enemy had 22+ defence, Haar would do more damage. 4. They both double attack, Shinon criticals once. Shinon does more base damage, but when factoring defences in, Haar would win. 5. They both double attack, Shinon criticals twice. Shinon does much more damage than Haar in this scenario. An enemy would need 23+ defence in order for Haar to win. 6. Shinon doubles and criticals twice, Haar does not double. Rofl. Shinon owns Haar. Shinon is the winner in the majority of these scenarios. He wins on offense for sure. Haar may win defensively, but who is Shinon most likely to be facing? Enemies with two range, archers, mages etc. as you will have him behind a unit wall. Shinon's resistance is superior. Archers don't do enough to kill him. Haar will be going up against the bulk of the enemy force, facing a larger range of units. Whilst he's all well and good against the normal melee units owing to his good defence, he has a problem with archers and mages. What am I trying to say? Shinon is generally superior defensively against the unit type that they both face, and can strike back against them. Haar is superior . . . oh wait, he's not superior because there aren't units to compare their defenses against in that regard. Haar's defensive lead doesn't count for much. Shinon's offensive lead, of course, counts for a lot. He does more damage than Haar. Shinon is definitely superior at this stage. Looking at their growths, there is not one single growth in which Haar beats Shinon. Shinon also has more levels to grow. Haar won't catch up. Shinon is a better unit than Haar for that reason. Ugh, I had a splitting headache all the way through that post, but it's up. Eat me, Yzarc. |
| jesus somebody get onto msn | |
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| Yzarc | May 1 2007, 07:22 PM Post #4 |
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Coxian
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The fact of the matter is, the size of your team is limited. If the only reason you're using Rolf is to essentially supplement Shinon, you're lacking in intelligence. Not only is it redundant to use two archers/snipers at once but you're also using two BAD units at once that, together, make two not-as-bad units. If you ARE going to use Shinon (maybe it was a bet, maybe you did some coke, or maybe you really are just stupid. Whatever floats your boat.) then it's better to have the rest of your team at least competent, which Rolf is not. Not only that, but you're KILLING Rolf by making him support with Shinon. He's a bad unit. He STARTS horribly. He needs supports to bring him to a little bit below par, (up from horribly below par) and he supports Mist really early on. He's also got Marcia as an early support. Now, granted, Marcia's better with others, but if you're gonna use Rolf, you're gonna need to support him. I'm not saying it's a good idea to use him, but I am saying that, if you do, you're gonna give him a support. And Shinon isn't gonna be one of those. And of course you should never use both Rolf and Shinon, both low tier units, in the same game. That's just silly.
Marcia CAN indeed support Kieran and Tanith. However, Marcia is basically just a superior version of Tanith and using both of them in the same game is a little, uhh...Not good. That's the main reason I said it didn't suit me right. Using two flyers in a game is reasonable, but using two pegasi, units that are made for particular jobs, is a little bit beyond necessary and useful.
As for Astrid, look at HER supports. She has Gatrie, Makalov and Sothe. She's gonna want both Gatrie and Makalov, even if it means staying back once in a while to get the boost from Gatrie (since she's obviously not gonna support with Sothe) If Gatrie supports Illyana and Astrid then he will not have room for Shinon. He will support Astrid because of how good Astrid is and because of how much she needs that support (he's basically her only option for  and you even admitted that Gatrie and Illyana will likely support for an A. That leaves Shinon with simply a support with Rolf, and even that, in itself, is a tactical error in that Rolf blows cock. Less cock than Shinon, granted, but why use both? They do the same thing, they are both inferior to the common unit (who is much more deserving to be on your team than either Rolf or Shinon) and they can't support until way late game. This support is only advantageous to Shinon. It hurts Rolf because he can't support anyone better or more useful to him. It hurts the player because you're using two similar and inferior units in place of better ones. This entire support is more detrimental to the player than it is helpful. It's hard enough to argue using ONE Low Tier unit (in your case, Shinon) but you're trying to argue using two?
What doesn't suit me right about it is that they are two similar units that are both on the same team. The marginal benefit of using pegasi decreases as you add more pegasi. Let me give you the example my Economics teacher gave me. "One time I got in an eating competition. My friend and I were gonna see who could eat the most slices of pizza. So, I ate my first slice. Damn, it was good. Then I ate the second slice. It was also good. But was it as good as the first? No. It was close, but not as good as the first. After a while, I got to my thirty fourth slice. Was that good at all? No. In fact, it was more painful to eat than it was delicious. In the end, I lost. By one slice. But the lesson here still remains. What is the lesson? Never get into an eating competition with an Asian." The lesson was, in fact, about Marginal Benefit and Marginal Cost. See, each slice of pizza you eat is worse than the previous one. And yet they still cost the same. So, efficiently speaking, it's best to only eat one slice because you get the most out of it for your buck. The same applies here. Why use two pegasi when you get the most out of only using one? I mean, yeah, two is definitely BETTER than one, but considering the second one takes up just as much space as a unit that could do a diferent job. The same applies to using two snipers. However, I digress. This is a non-issue anymore considering we've pretty much decided that Gatrie's gonna go Illyana and Astrid. I really just wanted to tell the pizza story.
There are better backlines. Much better backlines. I'm not gonna argue with you on the whole Shinon thing. We both recognize that he's a bad unit, that's not what needs proving here. This is a runthrough with a bad unit. But why in the hell are you using an extra bad unit? Rolf ISN'T a darned decent sharpshooter. He's the best sniper in the game, yeah, but considering both of the snipers in the game blow cock, I don't see what your point is. He's got not-shit offense and that's about it. There are better charcters to use if you're looking for offensive attackers. Again, I'm only arguing against using this low tier unit because this ISN'T the one you're trying to argue for. Taking up two team slots (and a lot of experience) for two low tier units is dumb.
You're right. Jill would rather support Mist than Haar. But who would Mist rather support? Wah! Looks like you're one step ahead of me, you tricky son of a bitch. 
However, what you forget to look at is the stats of the individuals. 8% Evasion is better than 8% Hit (and yeah, I mean 7%, that was a typo) but that is because most units need evasion more than they do accuracy. Boyd really wants a Mist Support. He wants an A, really bad. And I say that because all his other supports suck, except Titania, who runs much faster than him. It also boosts Boyd up to having probably the best offense in the game, providing 3 points of attack, very significant, and filling his only offensive hole, the low accuracy of axes. This makes Boyd an offensive beast. He'll want Mist. But will Mist want him? Let's see. Mist is an offensive beast when she uses the Sonic Sword. She is really bad offensively when using a regular sword, but using a regular sword is the only way to boost her up to being able to use the Sonic Sword. That's a really bad combination unless you can somehow boost up her offense to where she doesn't suck that bad when using a regular sword. OH WAIT, you can. Boyd gives her damage. A good amount. Then she has another flaw in her offense. Her luck is ridiculously poor. It's horrible. Her accuracy kinda bows. But this support fills that. Mist and Boyd also have more similar movement speed than Jill and Mist and are more likely to benefit each other. And then you reword my paragraphs in your favor. What you do is correct my mistake in somehow thinking that Haar got a point of attack in these supports (I was looking at the wrong line), take away a Jill/Haar Support and give Shinon an A Support with Rolf. Now, I feel like I've successfully shown why Shinon should not hae an A support with Rolf and, in this post, I've even shown that Gatrie has better options. That being said, I'm going to take my own paragraphs and change them from what they were originally, correcting my mistake, and fixing a few more things.
Indeed, the lategame is a small portion. And yet, I consider it the most important. Everything you do, all the training, all the items, all the bands, every action you perform from the start is essentially a build to the endgame. However, I do recognize that some characters make the midgame a bit more easy that aren't so good endgame. Such a character would be Titania. Shinon does indeed make the very early game a little easier by being able to kill everything, but the beginning is so easy anyway with beasts like Ike, Oscar, Boyd and Soren that you really don't need Shinon, or really even Titania, though she does help at times.
Unless, of course, you're semi-intelligent and decide it's best not to use both Rolf and Shinon and you decide that Gatrie has better supports. In that scenario, Shinon and Haar both have zilch by way of supports. Shinon level 8, Killer Bow HP: ~37 Damage: ~23 Accuracy: ~121% Critical: 55% AS: 20 Evasion: ~48% Def: 12.5 Res: 8.8 CEV: 11.5 Haar level 11, Brave Axe HP: 47 Damge: 31 Accuracy: 115% Critical: 9.5% AS: 17 Evasion: 46 Def: 20 Res: 10 CEV: 12 Hmm. I think you said it best.
Except this time Shinon only has about a 2% victory on evade. He doesn't double more, Haar will either double the same amount as Shinon or he quadruples, since you were kind enough to give him the Brave Axe. Haar easily wins offensively and defensively, especially since you went ahead and gave him the Brave Axe.
Except this time let's remember that Haar doesn't have a problem getting an A Support with Jill, Gatrie has Astrid and Illyana and the player isn't stupid enough to use both Rolf and Shinon. Shinon, Killer Bow, level 14 HP: 42 Damage: 26 Accuracy: 130 Crit: 57 AS: 21 Evasion: 56 Def:16 Res: 11 CEV: 14 Haar, Silver Axe, level 15, B Jill, B Makalov (Let's say he doesn't have his A with Jill yet) HP: 50 Mt: 39 Hit: 128 Crit: 10 AS: 18 Def: 24 Res: 13 Avd: 69 Crit Ev: 13 Defensively: Haar has 8 HP, 8 Defense, 2 Res and 13% Evasion. Offensively: Haar has 13 damage. Defensively: Shinon has 1 CEV Offensively: Shinon has 3 AS, 47% Crit and 2% Accuracy. All of Shinon's leads except the Attack speed and crit are negligible, while al of Haar's are significant. How do you balance it? Shinon's leads are all offensive, while Haar does have a damn significant offensive lead in damage. Haar takes the cake defensively, easily, and Shinon massively outdoes Haar in crit and will double more often. However, we then remember why Shinon wins so hardcore in Crit. There are two reasons. 1. He is using a Killer Bow. Killer Bows have 10 less uses than Silver Axes and cost 20 more gold per use. 2. He is a sniper. He gets a crit boost of 15% over a secondary weapon. Is that good or bad? Well, honestly, I prefer Haar's ability to manipulate the weapon triangle, which you can't really analyze statistically. You just have to recognize that Haar's abilities go further than simple battle stats. He also has a wider variety of weapons, he can get WTA more often than not, and he can fly over shit and at great ranges. Shinon? He can attack stuff. WEEE!
So, Shinon is superior defensively because he hides behind the lines? No. All that means is that his ONLY purpose is to deal the mediocre damage that he does. So he doubles more often than Haar? That doesn't mean he's good offensively. If his only purpose is to deal damage then you can literally put almost any unit in his place and they'll likely be better, but they can also take some damage.
You're wrong. He is not the winner defensively just because he hides behind the lines. He's at less risk, yeah, but is it really worth considering him for a team if ALL he can do is help deal damage? Haar can sure as hell deal damage, but he can also take some hits. A lot of hits. He has ridiculously high evasion, almost enough to consider him a dodge tank, paired with high enough defense and HP to make him a regular tank. Haar is definitely superior defensively and your argument about Shinon being better because he hides is completely backwards logic.
Catch up? First of all, Haar still has one more Jill Support to catch up on, providing another 2% Accuracy and 5% Evasion. Second of all, he's clearly superior to Rolf at this point. Clearly. I think you'll agree with me here. If you don't, then...Uh...You're stupid. Or something.
I don't even know how to take that. Usually girls say that, and thy are referring to their vaginas. Unless you actually want me to take a bite out of a part of your body...In which case, which part? I don't eat toes. It's sort of a policy. |
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6:49 AM Nov 8
