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| Reikken vs Inui | |
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| Topic Started: May 15 2007, 10:32 PM (831 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | May 15 2007, 10:32 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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winners finals yeahuzz five posts I'm staying Rolf. I guess you're Sothe? |
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| Reikken | May 16 2007, 11:03 PM Post #2 |
 
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Rolf and Sothe. Rolf is an archer, a fighter. Sothe is a thief. Amazing deduction skillz, mirite? Anyway, Rolf's jorb is to fight things. However, there's a limited amount of exp to be gained, and when Rolf's fighting, he's taking some of that exp that I could have used on another character. phail. And speaking of other characters, Rolf sucks, and I could have been using someone better. By using him instead of someone who's actually good, my team is worse off. How much worse is he than the good fighters? Lots. He joins massively weak, and unless I burn even more exp than normal on him, he stays sucky. Using Rolf is a detriment to the team. Sothe's job is to pick locks and steal things. He doesn't take exp from the other characters on my team. The exact opposite of Rolf. Winner: Sothe. Now, there's also another thief that I could have been using instead of Sothe. How much worse is Sothe than this other thief? Not much. This other thief, Volke, does indeed have better stats, but he still sucks massively at fighting things, so it doesn't even matter. And then Sothe even has a few advantages of his own: he doesn't cost anything to pick locks, whereas Volke does, though this is fairly minor; and he actually has supports, and Volke doesn't (lol, Bastian), which can help other characters on my team. Using Sothe hardly hurts my team, if any at all. He may even be more helpful than Volke is. no detriment >>>>> massive detriment Sothe >>>>> Rolf |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| +Ema Skye | May 17 2007, 04:18 PM Post #3 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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1. Prepromoted units in this game are great, and can fight well with little experience. 2. Bonus experience is rather plentiful. 3. All of these low tiers suck and shouldn't be used over any of the good units. 4. He doesn't take enough experience to be a detriment unless you want to 20/20 a large group of unpromoted units or something. He doesn't require much more experience(if more at all) than any of the early joining units, since he gets tons of EXP per kill when he joins.
Sothe's job isn't needed every chapter. And when it is, why waste a unit slot on a unit that can't do anything BUT steal and pick stuff? Volke at least CAN fight. He has solid combat statistics; he's just forced to use a very weak weapon type, however, a Stiletto makes him pretty combat-ready. Sothe, even with a Stiletto, can't do anything combat-wise. He's also much more fragile, even with Blossum giving him good statistics for a 20/0 unit. Volke also has a massive level lead over Sothe. Sothe supporting units? Lol no. He's a waste of a slot, since if he goes near combat to support those units, he's getting raped. THAT'S pretty detrimental. Since he can't fight, he can barely even gain experience, and with Blossum factoured in, he'll barely ever gain levels. He's a piece of glass on the battlefield that isn't needed when Volke does his job ten times better. Sothe joins like this HP: 20.0 STR: 5.0 MAG: 1.0 SKL: 7.0 SPD: 11.0 LUK: 5.0 DEF: 4.0 RES: 0.0 If this was chapter one, he'd be fine. But he joins much later than that. Only 24 Atk is required to OHKO him, and only 20 Atk for a magic user. He only has 7 Atk with a Knife and 9 Atk with a Dagger, so he's not dealing damage to anything unless it's awful. 27 Evd is very unreliable. So, in conclusion, Sothe is completely incapable of entering combat, and thus he cannot gain experience beyond bonus experience and picking off a random mage here and there. Using bonus experience on him is obviously a waste, as you get nothing at all out of it except a second thief. Volke's already living and can actually fight sometimes, so Sothe is a waste of a slot. You brought up supporting other units being good. Okay. Rolf supports: Shinon (1|2|4) Rhys (3|6|9) Marcia (2|5|8) Mist (1|3|7) Tauroneo (1|3|5) Sothe supports: Astrid Tormod (EFED doesn't have the numbers for amount of chapters and I'm too lazy to go to GameFAQs when it doesnt matter.) Astrid wants Gatrie and Makalov WAY more. Tormod wants Reyson, Calill, and Muarim WAY more; he might even want Devdan more... Rolf's support partners may have other better options, but Rolf has such a massive list that if he's being used he's definitely getting some supports in. There's not enough unit space for all of his partners to be full without him. After Rolf promotes, he becomes one your better attackers due to his high SKL, high SPD, and his high Crit. His STR may not be amazing, but it allows him to get kills with Steel Bows and such anyways. Not like everyone else is doing much better, anyways, since criticals and effective weapons are almost a requirement to get kills in one-round. |
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| Reikken | May 18 2007, 02:46 AM Post #4 |
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1. Uh? What's your point? The only thing I can think of is that you're trying to say that you don't need to have lots of exp. If that's what you're saying, of course you don't need all your exp. You don't even need supports. Does that make the lack of it not a detriment? No. Having it is MUCH better. 2. So what? Any bexp burned on Rolf could have been going to someone else. 3. ...? I have no clue what your point is here. 4. No. Any negative is a detriment, no matter how small. And this one isn't even small at all. Unless I want to 20/20 a large group? What's this? Are you implying that the endgame levels are the only things that matter? I thought I could expect more from you. No, the entire game matters. Less exp now means lower levels and stats now, which is obviously a bad thing. Even later promotions, which is also obviously a bad thing. Doesn't require any more exp? They're on liek level 11, and he's on level 1. He's going to need craploads more exp. I don't see your logic. Tons of exp when he kills? Rolf joins with garbage offense. The only way he's killing anything ever is if you go out of your way to set up kills for him, which hinders your team and also deprives others of exp. Double lose. Even if he was somehow getting as many kills as anyone else, he still wouldn't be catching up any significant amount. At 10 levels under, he's gaining 15 more exp per kill. With 6 kills per chapter, that's less than a level per chapter, and the rate of catch-up decreases with every level he catches up. By during chapter 17 or so, he would still be 5 levels behind, and then ppl promote, and he's still like 16/0. He was suckingmassively all up until then, improving slightly relative to the team, and then he drops back down to ubermassive suck again for several more chapters before he promotes and bumps back up to regular massive suck. But anyway, he's not getting kills unless they're fed to him, so it's even much worse than that.
O rly? In this game, you can steal weapons, like the rare and useful staves that you can't buy, so even on non-chest chapters... 13- chests 14- FoW 15- desert items 16- chests 17- steal Physic 18- chests 19- ,,, 20- steal Physic 21- loads of chests plus loads of staves to steal 22- chests 23- steal Physics 24- uh, I don't remember what the Bishop reinforcements have, or even if they are Bishops at all since I haven't done a non-uber speed run on this map in a while 25- ,,, 26- steal Physic 27- chests 28- h4x* 29- h4x* * You can steal some stuff here, but it's not really worth it so late There's hardly any chapters that you don't want a thief for. And...this game isn't too restrictive on character slots, so you'll have room anyway. Volke can fight? His base atk going into ch 11 is 12, the same as Mia's 4 chapters ago, and Mia starts off really sucky. What does that say about Volke? He has zero combat skillz. At least Mia can use a stronger steel weapon for the slower enemies. Volke can't even do that. He does double 1s to the ch 11 cavalier things. No, Volke can't fight. And you can't buy Stilettos until ch 27, btw. I know Sothe can't fight. It doesn't matter. It's like saying, "Omg, Reyson can't attack." And lol, I like how you mention Volke as the one unit that can replace Sothe, but don't mention the other liek 30 characters that can replace Rolf.
Amazing. Worthless, but it's nice to look at.
No, 3 spaces is quite a nice range. There would usually have to be enemy units within 3 spaces of his supporters and somehow still alive at the end of player phase and there not be any sort of blockage other than that one supporter for him to be reached. In those few instances, don't go up there, obviously. The majority of the time, he's good to go. It's loads better than Volke's, that's for sure.
Blossom? Why would I be using Blossom when exp is hard to come by? Please. 10 times better? what you talkin bout? Even if Volke is doing any better at all, which is doubtful, it doesn't even compare to how much worse Rolf is doing. He's being beaten by not one but dozens of characters and by huge margins rather than a tiny margin that may not even exist at all.
Only 24 atk is required to one-hit Reyson, too. Good thing few things have 24 atk for a long time. Except those bosses that don't move, but those are bosses that don't move, so no one cares. Oh wow. I see you noticed that Sothe can't fight. Amazing. Only...It doesn't make a bit of difference, guys. Who cares? He doesn't need to fight to be useful. Rolf does, and without burning loads of bexp, he sucks almost as much at it. At least Sothe doubles, lol. Rolf takes loads of resources before he can even start sucking. Before that, he's just crap.
Using bonus experience on Rolf is obviously a waste, as you get nothing at all out of it except a ....thirtieth fighter that still sucks way more than everyone else. Rolf is a waste of a slot.... times...alot.
Of course they all won't be full without him. Except the ones who aren't full are the ones that suck massively and so won't be used anyway. Shinon- sucks. Rhys- sucks. Marcia- has better supporters. Mist- has several better supporters. Tauroneo- he's kinda meh, but he's decent enough that he might be used every now and then. Anyway, he joins way late, so it's not helping much in the first place, and then all the support does is give him durability anyway, which he doesn't much need since he's a general. A general with res, too.
Serenes Forest ftw Astrid want Makalov? yeah. Gatrie? wtf, no. First of all, Gatrie sucks due to being a fighter that has bad offense and mobility, so he's not even getting used, and then the bonuses are worse (3 avo -> 5 avo >> 0 def -> 1 def), and then 3 move gap ftl. Gatrie will be in range even less than Sothe will. So it's an inferior support all around. Screw that; Astrid wants Sothe. Tormod would love a Muarim support and his Thunder affinity, except he doesn't support Muarim. They just have a 10 crit inbuilt support. Reyson and Devdan both give inferior bonuses. Tormod's a mage, so he doesn't need moar atk. What he needs is avoid. And Devdan sucks anyway. Reyson doesn't have the move nor the freedom to stay with Tormod--only 5 move starting out the chapter as compared to Tormod's 8, and his job is refreshing ppls--and he's even more fragile than Sothe, so if durability is a concern, Reyson is definitely out. Calill has a nice avoid-boosting affinity, but she joins later, and she's only one unit, so it doesn't matter anyway. Tormod definitely wants Sothe. Rolf's supports are of near zero use. It's even negative when you consider that nearly anyone else you could have used actually has useful supports. Sothe's supports aren't h4x or anything, but they're much more helpful than Rolf's, and they're a substantial increase over Volke's no supports. After he promotes? Which is like ch 20-21. Oh wait, that was when he was somehow killing as much as other characters. So it's even later. No, he's still a sucky attacker. He'll be getting beaten by in atk by physical sword Mist after he promotes and getting raped by her in atk before then. He's awful. Rolf is shit without eating up your resources. Plain and simple. Sothe is not. He is of much use without ever using up anything. Rolf gets dominated utterly by dozens of other characters. Sothe almost doesn't even get beaten, and it's by only one other unit. |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| +Ema Skye | May 20 2007, 10:45 AM Post #5 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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No. I'm implying that units can be at high levels even if you're using Rolf. He's not draining that much experience. He's not causing anyone to be promoted later. He gets a lot of experience when he kills things, and since basically nobody is one-rounding ever, he can pick off free kills pretty often. I've noticed this in his joining chapter until past promotion time.
Well, it's still the same AMOUNT of experience points, if you want to be technical... He's underleveled, but not late enough in the game for it be a real issue. He can pick off free kills pretty often since only the likes of Titania or a lucky Boyd can one-round at this point. He's getting a lot of experience per kill and he just needs a little bit of bonus experience, and he'll be fine.
Those set-up kills happen NORMALLY. Unless you want the enemies to get to attack you on their phase? Of course not. Just have Rolf kill off the remaining HP. Only 15 EXP more per kill? He's getting ~40 EXP per kill in his joining chapter. I don't remember the other units getting over 20 EXP from kills in that chapter, but I definitely remember Rolf getting around 40 per kill, as I was taking notes at the time on Rolf. Yes, we've already concluded that Rolf is not as good as Oscar, Titania, Boyd, Ike, and all of the other God Tiers. You're proving nothing here by saying he is garbage compared to them when both of these units are anyways. The important thing is that Rolf > Sothe.
Don't you need more STR than the weight of what you're trying to steal? That could pose a problem for Sothe given how he starts with basically no STR and can't level-up without being the most detrimental unit ever in terms of experience. You're suggesting we use a unit slot on Sothe so he can steal a few things that Volke can snatch up along his way anyways, and do it much better with far less risk? Why bring Sothe on Chapter 26 to steal one staff? Volke can actually fight at this point, and fight WELL(if he has lethality, otherwise he's just average) given how he's promoted and has Stilettos for rape. This game isn't one where you need to rush a lot, so you don't need to bring two thieves at any point. You can just BREAK doors down, even, instead of having a thief open them. Volke is all that is needed. Sothe using a slot that a good combat unit could be using is detrimental. Rolf is a good combat unit after promotion due to solid offense. lol we sure love the word "detrimental" since these two kids suck ass
Let's see how many good units we have that can fit on a large chapter map, such as Bertram's chapter... Ike Titania Boyd Oscar Soren Reyson Jill Kieran Mist Marcia Astrid Makalov Gatrie Calill ohshit i think we're full up? No room for Sothe even on a huge chapter. And there are other good units besides those that could be fielded and be useful. Sothe is incapable of fighting. Sothe is incapable of taking blows or dodging. Sothe is thus incapable of being fielded unless you shield him, baby him, and rescue him. THAT'S pretty fucking gay, imo. On smaller chapters, you don't want to take him even more, since that would mean benching a good unit for a chapter. At least using Rolf is going to yield a unit with good offensive power after promotion, and Rolf has a lot of supports.
Volke can kill magic users, and he actually can one-round one fighter in the port chapter. Uh ohz! Yeah, Volke isn't an amazing combat unit, but his high STR growth helps him out there, and he doesnt need to be one-rounding anyways. He can pick off units that aren't dead yet, as this is common in this game unless you are earlygame Titania or Largo with a Silver Axe or something, and he can pick at units to gain EXP. Sothe can't even do that 1 damage to gain any experience points at all, whether it be experience from just weakening something, which is not taking away from others, or a large gain from a kill. You still get some before then, and you can buy Daggers early.
It matters because the whole point of the game is to kill the enemies and proceed to the next chapter. Sothe doesn't help with this. Reyson gives other units extra turns to increase the rape, while Sothe sits there and holds your team back by needing to be shielded and guarded the entire time since even the weaker units later on can OHKO him.
So, you have to prioritize forming a shield around a unit you don't ever need on the field. Good stuff. This game likes to throw long-range magic at you a lot. What's Sothe going to do about that?
Implying that Volke doesn't outdo Sothe is ridiculous. Volke is significantly more durable and significantly better at fighting. And Volke is already bad at fighting, so that makes Sothe the single worst unit in the game when it comes to fighting. Volke doing better is doubtful? Don't see how it's doubtful when Volke utterly crushes Sothe in everything except supports. If you want to field trash like Sothe to make someone like Astrid better, then we might as well field Marcus and Louise in Light to make Eliwood and Pent better.
Not when he transforms, and he at least has Evd and RES. Sothe has NOTHING. No defensive parameters worth anything at all.
I see you still think it doesn't matter. I doubt everyone else will feel the same way. Being incapable of fighting in a game about killing things? That sucks. At least bards/dancers can give other units multiple turns to make up for it, but Sothe has nothing to make up for it. He just sucks.
Sothe only starts with 11 SPD. Rolf has that by level 11(10 if you round up the .5). If you're using Rolf, he's going to be around that level when you get Sothe, and he gets tons and tons of experience from slaying those ravens on the boat, and he's actually not bad at that thanks to bows and having solid Hit.
Except...no. He has better offense than almost everyone after promotion. He has very impressive Crit, high Hit, high Atk Spd, and decent Atk. How is he sucking more? Ohnozsnipernoattackingbackatcloserange! This is why the people that make these games give you units like Gatrie and Oscar to frontline so that doesn't matter, and Rolf can camp behind them and rape things with his offense. Even at a few levels behind your team, his offense is on par with their's. And when I say on par with "their's," I actually do mean it's on par with the TOP TIER units. Unless these average charts on FEA are decieving me, that is...
Yeah, he sucks. Good in the earlygame and not too bad later on if you use a Paladin Band on him. He's low tier, but around the top of it, and if he's being used Rolf can support him. Yeah, but are you always using all of them and will she always be full? Same. He's a good low tier, and definitely wants Rolf if he's fielded. At least Rolf gets a lategame support and Tauroneo can have some supports. The point I'm trying to make is that he has a lot of units that he can support. You'd have to not field them ever or field them AND all of their supporters to deprieve Rolf of supports. It's not happening.
Yes, we all know how much you hate Gatrie. He's still incapable of dying unless a horde of sages with thunder surround him, and he deals tons of damage with a single blow. He's much better than you give him credit for, since he can bait an entire army and come out taking no damage or only taking a few points of damage, and then he'll definitely kill whatever it is he's fighting on his turn. Remember that strategy you posted about Dorcas? Same thing, except Gatrie has infinite durability. Gatrie will be in range because he's a tank and frontlines well. He'll be seeing combat, like Astrid, while Sothe will not. If he's thieving, he's off somewhere. And he shouldn't even be on the effing battlefield ever. Battlefields are for people that can battle, not for people that can't do damage and get raped. If you're going to take a thief along for somethings, then it's going to be Volke, and you don't need another.
Sothe HP: 20 Evd: 27 Def: 4 Res: 0 Crit Evd: 5 Reyson(untransformed) HP: 22 Evd: 43(!!) Def: 2 Res: 20(!!) Crit Evd: 15 Not only does Reyson rape the shit out of him in Evd, but he takes magic blows like they are nothing. So, he's more durable even without transforming, and when he does transform, he's way more durable. Reyson is also god tier/top of high tier, so he's basically always fielded and he's amazing. Unlike Sothe, who sucks. Who's saying Tormod is even being used, anyways? He's even more underleveled than Rolf.
If Rolf is being fielded, he's going to promote much sooner than that unless you purposely neglect him. He gets a lot of EXP from killing and this game is pretty generous with that bonus experience, so he's not going to be promoting that yet. Spending the resources to promote him around when your other units normally promote is nowhere near as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. I've used Rolf plenty of times along with a normal full team, and nobody promoted later or failed to be at high levels later on, and Rolf promoted around Chapter 16/17 without issues. And when he's promoted, he's trashing a lot of units in offensive power. Mist with a Sword being better? Um. She starts at the same level as him in the same chapter, and has god-awful offensive power forever and ever unless she's using a Sonic Sword. If we want to baby her with a good weapon, then give Rolf a Killer Bow to make him god too.
He's not eating that much up, unless my game is special and gives extra experience or something. I don't see where these problems are coming from. False. Unless you neglect him and don't actually raise and train him, he's somewhere in the top 10 in the game for offense in the lategame, probably.
Being the worst fighter in the game and having the poorest durability, along with wasting a unit slot, is a detriment. Sothe sucks more! |
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| Reikken | May 23 2007, 02:27 AM Post #6 |
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I responded to things out of order and didn't bother to reoder it, so some things I say may not have the explanations until later in the post.
Unless Rolf is staying underleveled, he is indeed using up significantly more exp than others. That's a mathematical fact.
same amount = Rolf stays way underleveled
First of all, since he's doing way less damage than everyone else is, it's unlikely that he'll be able to get the kill even after someone else attacks it first. And even then, the vast majority of the time, someone else could have gotten that kill instead.
level 1 killing a level 11 = 40 exp level 11 killing a level 11 = 25 exp
No, Sothe is much better than Rolf. Using Rolf means you lose lots of combat ability and also lose loads of exp, or if you don't give him extra exp, you lose insane amounts of combat ability since you'll be left with one of the weakest combat units ever. Using Sothe means you lose a tiny amount of combat ability due to how much Volke's sucks, and you gain some supports in return. Staves are extremely light. And lol, no. Even if I gave Sothe 500 bexp, Rolf would still be more detrimental even only in terms of exp. Either that or he remains underleveled the entire time. You can't pick locks better than someone else. Well, actually, Sothe would be marginally better at it due to not costing moneys. As opposed to bringing another fighter that I don't need and haven't been using? No thx. I'll take one of the most h4x items in the game, kthx. Stilettos? You only get 2 until chapter 27, and each has only 20 uses, and the first isn't until ch 21. What does that mean? 4-mt Daggers, lol. And for Volke to even have sub-decent stats, he has to have been fighting alot with Daggers or been eating mass bexp. What? Even assuming Volke has been fighting loads and loads, his attack with those limited supply Stilettos is about Lucia's level. Mist's attack > his. And when he isn't using rare weaponry, he gets raped in attack. And when he hasn't been babied like hell, he simply can't fight. lol, Lethatilty is a joke. Crit/2 = lowest activation rate ever. (Skill/2 + Weapon - EnemyLuck)/2. Even with your limited weapons, it's still at a single digit activation rate. With a Dagger, you'll be lucky to even get 4%activation. And it uses up an Occult. Lucia+Astra >>>> that. No, Volke can never even come close to fighting well. He sucks always. Going slow = you get less exp, so rushing is better.
With 80 hp doors, that takes quite a bit.
And Ike and Titania are all that is needed for combat. What's your point? Why would you even want to fill every single slot, especially since many chapters don't let you take as many, so you're either using some random unit you haven't been using, or you're making people sit out. And using fewer units is better anyway.
His offense is never good. It becomes non-ubersuck after he promotes, but that's only if you poured in tons of extra exp, and that's still not good.
 lol @ Gatrie being good Now, for those characters to be good, you have to have been using them all because otherwise they're just underleveled with no supports, etc. And I'm pretty sure this chapter lets you take even more units than that, though I could be mistaken. Anyway, the more units you use, the lower their levels and the fewer skill/statups/whatever they get, etc., so it's not good to use massive teams. No, dude. His avoid is decent. And few can 1-hit him. And it rly doesn't matter. If something can kill him, just keep him out of range. You can see enemy ranges for a reason. And chests don't attack, Priests don't attack, and Bishops suck so much at attacking that they're not a threat to even Sothe.
Oh snap, he can one-round a level 1 unit! Those are Vigilates that you're not supposed to kill. They're made so that it's hard to not kill them. You even get a reward for not killing them, so that's not helping anything. And he actually can't kill magic users. Chapter 11's level 12 mages have about 5 def and 23 hp. Volke has 12 atk. He needs 4 hits to kill a mage. wtf. This guy doesn't need to be fighting ever. So Volke has to steal kills? Only if it's a unit that somehow no one else is around to kill will Volke be getting that kill. It happens, sure, but it's quite rare, and it's going to be one of the less threatening enemies since the more threatening ones are focused on first.
There's actually alot more one-rounding going on than you're saying. Early on, yeah, there's less, but Titania is indeed there, and Boyd and ppls like Mordecai can one round some things as well. And then for others, there's forged weapons. Now, for things like ch 11's cavaliers, even forged weapons won't let people one-round them, but it's pretty suicidal for Volke to go try to fight them, and he's not doing but 1 damage to them anyway. Later on, units that are actually good are indeed one-rounding most things.
Pick at things to gain exp? Even Sothe can do that. Like hack away at priests. Free exp. And his atk sucks, so he can get more out of them without killing them. Ch 13 he's busy with chests, but most of ch 14's enemies have low def, and then from then on, you have Daggers, so he can do at least 1 damage to most things. You get one in ch 21 and one from Bastian, and that's it.
Sothe isn't fighting, so he's not in enemy range. You don't need to be shielded when you're not in enemy range.
Rolf has to be shielded since he can't counterattack. And no. First of all, Sothe can be farther back. And then usually it's easy to block off enemies, and often it even happens naturally, or you're doing it for someone else anyway, like Reyson. And other times the enemies simply don't have enough range to reach. For the rare occasion that that isn't the case, just stay back, or just don't care since it can't kill him in one hit or anything, and it's certainly not doubling.
Who cares? He's not getting attacked by anything else, so just keep going, and then kill the mage thing. Unless it can somehow kill him in one hit, he's fine. If it can, just use a Pure Water. No, not even close. It's like fielding Matthew in Sands of Time to get chests as well as make Guy better. And Volke is not significantly better at fighting. Sure, he can do more damage, but he still can't kill anything, and if he's attacking things and taking counterattacks and being out there by the enemies, he's easily less durable. And also, unless you give Volke massive babying/bexp, Sothe's +15 avo from supports means he actually has more avoid...!
Sothe gets more avo from his supports, and he's not weak to bows and ballistae like Reyson.
Sothe gets you items to use for said fighting, foo. He makes good units better rather than taking exp from good units, making them worse.
lol, level 11. If you dump 500 bexp on him, level 8-9 would be reasonable. 700 for level 11.
lol, no. Rolf's offense is never on par with that of top tier units, and especially not when he's a few levels behind. Kieran is beating him in atk by about 6. Rolf's attack is about on par with Mist's even when he's using more exp. Impressive crit? 20 crit is not impressive at all.
Amazing; just like Sothe. Except Sothe doesn't even have to be that close as he can be 3 spaces behind the frontline. Paladin Band is one of the best bands for mages and shiz. Give it to Soren to make his avoid even higher, give it to Ilyana to keep her speed up later in the game, etc. Waste it on Rhys just so I can support Rolf? No way. And even then, use this guy over Mist? No way. And even then, sure, he's nice as a healer in the earlygame, but after promotion, sages can heal too, so there's no reason at all to keep around a sucky unit. If using Rolf means I need to use Rhys, too, that's even worse. Even if he did get this support, Rolf is a backliner, and Marcia is a flier with 2 more move. It's never going to be in range. Now, Kieran and Tanith? Tanith, perhaps not always, but with this combined with the point above, it's so infrequent that it doesn't matter. Rolf gets an average of like 0.1 atk and 0.5 avoid. Titania, Jill, Boyd, and Mordecai? No, Rolf is never even touching this one. Sure, when he's fielded, he gets Rolf.
Except Dorcas can kill things in one hit, and yet he's still low tier. Gatrie can't, and he even has less mobility. This guy sucks. And then, you can't bait out armies unless you have the move to actually get out there in front of everyone. You can't take hits for someone unless you can move over in front of them. He's like Mordecai with half the move, zero doubling ability instead of meh doubling ability, and no earlygame raeping skillz. Yes, Gatrie sucks. Srsly. He's alot like Wallace, and that guy sucks hard even without the recruitment requirements.
You don't need to see combat to be in support range. Sothe is a backliner that thieves instead of attacks ranged, and he can be even farther back than ranged attackers. Instead of 2 spaces away from the enemy, it's 3 spaces away from an ally.
For stealing, no. For chests, only sometimes. Not very often. You have to get to the chests first, and sometimes, they're even right there along the way, and then he either rejoins after getting the chests or the chapters is over anyway. I don't need another fighter after Ike and Titania either, so that's moot. If I'm goint to use another fighter, it sure as hell isn't going to be Rolf. It's going to be one of the other two dozen units that are better than him. Rolf has far far more competition than Sothe has, and he's much worse than his.
You fergatted Sothe's supports. +15 avo. And Sothe won't be at base level. He can indeed damage things, many enemies can't counterattack, and he even gets exp from stealing. Reyson has massive res, but Sothe has no weakness to bows and laguzslaying weapons, and res can even be boosted.
Indeed. He's proof that you can be fielded with crap durability and not die.
level 11 vs level 1 on ch 9 level 17 vs level 7 on ch 16 Even more underleveled? Nope. What makes Tormod so much better than Rolf? They both need bexp, but the difference is that Tormod actually becomes good. 20/4 Rolf = 16.8 str + 9 Steel Bow = 25.8 atk. 20/4 Tormod = 18.2 mag + 7 Elthunder + 1 B Sothe = 26.2 atk. Tormod ties/beats Rolf in attack, except he attacks res, so he's raping him in offense. And Tormod has staves, which are h4x in this gaem, and 1-2 range, which is also pretty h4x. And he has more move.
Sure, if you give him loads of bexp/babying. I dunno where you're getting that bull from. His offense is not good at all. So you give Rolf bexp, which takes exp from the rest of the team, and then he does his thing, killing stuff, or trying to...more like stealing kills since he's still underleveled unless you gave him loads... and in killing things, he's taking even more exp away from the rest of the team. But that's okay, since he was helping out by killing stuff. Or it would be if he didn't suck while doing it. So you have the exp lost by killing things, mostly made up for by him helping out + exp lost by giving him bexp. Net loss. Then, Mist. You give Mist bexp, which takes exp from the rest of the team, and then she does her thing, helping out with healing ppls. So you have the exp lost by giving her bexp, made up for by helping out. Comes out even. Mist can catch up in level without taking up more exp. Rolf has to use up more exp than others to catch up in level. And then after promotion, staff exp isn't halved like in some games, and Physic gives 22 exp per use, so staff users get h4x levels.
No, using him doesn't mean that you have a massive exp deficiency where your characters all promote 5 chapters later or something, but you do indeed have quite a bit less exp. You could instead use that exp to boost another character or two several levels, making them h4x. That's much better than using Rolf, who's below average even caught up in level. And again, I don't know where you're getting that from. |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| Kamaitachi | May 25 2007, 01:46 AM Post #7 |
Classy
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You dastard! How could you do something like that to me!!! We're totally not friends anymore. And you can completely forget about that thing about us lying in sexual congress once a month or so.
Your mathematics are wonky. Rolf starting underlevelled will gain more experience points from, say, hitting a unit, than say your already level gajillion Ike will. At that point in the game, since you're basically using all your units in your roster anyways, you might as well get Rolf some experience, as opposed to wasting it on your already higher leveled units. Oh sure, they can use more experience, but that's what units like, say, bosses are for. Rolf will gain more experience. This does not mean that he's using significantly more than the rest. Why, on his joining chapter, he can do 0 damage to an armor and still gain some decent experience. Is that stealing experience? No. That's him getting some for himself, and still leaving plenty for units like, I dunno...armourslaying Ike to get their experience in as well. So really, it's still mathematical fact, just in a different way than you're gunning for Reikken, darling.
Uh. No.
Like who? On Rolf's joing chapter, how many people do you have already? Fairly enough, says I, and there are enough enemies for them to run around getting experience from too. Unless, of course, you're deadset on Lethe and Mordecai being all chompy chompy bitey bitey on all the enemies. The only time you really need Lethe, is to get her out to that far house that the retarded sea bandits might possibly get to first. Oh right. Marcia could do that too. Okay, I need to pause here for a second and point something out. Inui says "Rolf > Sothe" then Reikken's counter is "No, Sothe > Rolf". What is this? Fusions top debaters resorting to the most base of base logics!? Oh my heart, she breaks
Right, but using Sothe over Volke means you lose out on Lethality. You ultimately don't need Volke as a utility unit, as there are enough chest keys and the like, and you can break down things in this game by hitting them. And mind you, if you're looking to use Sothe purely for supports and for utility...you're dumb. Volke will be a more durable unit, so I'd rather spend pittance to get some good stuff. Oftentimes, you see, a chest has enemy units around them. Sending Sothe off on his own, or with a paltry support team of Sothe and Tormod seems like a pretty terrible idea, especially if you're running off to get chests before an enemy gets to them. Oh I know. Send Sothe and Astrid instead. At least Volke, even without supports, has more durability on the overall. I'd rather spend a little money than have one of my units die. Because if one of my units dies, I assume I'm a terrible player. Using Sothe often makes me feel like a terrible player. So yeah, you're probably going to be all like "Using an Occult Scroll on Volke is a waste, blah blah blah, I'm Reikken, here are the numbers I've carefully compiled as to why" and then my response would be "Kindly remove those numbers from my tender, tender butthole." So before we get to that, let me just say that...I don't care what you say. Watching Volke stumble a little then obliterate an enemy in a single hit makes me glow on the inside. Sothe can't do that. Sothe is all like "oh man, I'm tiny. I'll hit you with my little knife!" and then the enemy laughs, bends him over, and goes Vlad the Impaler on Sothe with their massive...uh...egos.
You keep saying this, and yet I don't believe you. It's perfectly easy to have a Rolf on level par with the rest of your team, especially since later on you go on and make the argument that you shouldn't be using a massive team anyways!
Right. Money is so frickin hard to come by in this game. People don't randomly give your team thousands of monies for being cool as shit. You're rich as shit at many points in the game. You don't need to spend too too much on weapons, so by the time you get Volke to pick locks for you, 80 per lock is just...paltry. It's not a big deal. Sothe can do it for free, sure, but Sothe is also a giant wuss.
The only thing Lucia has over Volke is hotness. Although I must admit, Volke can be pretty sexy. But still. Right right. there's no hammerne in this game. Stilletos can be used sparsely, when they're needed. Volke still does more damage than Sothe. Every argument you make for Volke fighting goes just as equally against Sothe fighting. Oh right, Sothe isn't going to fight. He's going to run around and hope he survives. Right.
What are you? An overweight 6 year old at an all you can eat Buffet? Those little kids will chow down everything in sight, at five or six plates. Why? I dunno. They're fatties. Us sophisticated adults are more than happy to have a helping or two of some of the things we actually enjoy about the buffet. That's right. I compared FE9 to a buffet. Rushing through, in my mind, means doing things like getting Ike to the exit as fast as possible, or killing the boss as fast as possible. So sure you get more bonus exp...but you lose out in a lot of...well...actual exp.
Does it matter? While one of your dudes is bashing down the door, your healers are doing their work so you can enter the next part of the level fully healed. Doesn't seem like all that bad a deal to me.
My point is that Volke is a fireman. And firemen are clearly men made out of fire. That makes Volke a fire type Pokemon. Can Sothe say that? Well...Sothe has a skill called Blossom. That makes Sothe a grass type. We all know that fire > grass.
See, you did it again! If you're using a small team, then Rolf's exp consumption isn't as (oh goodness, word of the debate:) detrimental as you say it is. You're either going to argue for a large team where Rolf's experience stealing is detrimental, or a smaller team with the-Sothe-whose-job-can-be-done-by-Volke and Rolf=whose=experience=stealing-is-not-such-a-big-deal-now.
Never is such a harsh word. How about, fairly often it's not good? I dunno, Rolf's offense is pretty good, especially when he's running around with a Killer bow. Sure it relies on criticals, but...it still gets the job done most of the time. Oh, right. And there aren't any enemy fliers in this game ever. Ever.
What are you talking about? It's not like this game has a severe deficiency of either bonus experience or actual experience. In fact, there's more than plenty of it. If Muarim can gain a gajillion levels in a few chapters, according to your formulae, then these characters can all gain a hell of a lot more!
Once again, you've gotten me confused. Sothe is going to go wail on priests? What a douchebag. Besides, not ever chapter has priests that will just sit there and take damage from you. They're probably going to, you know, run away. Oh, unless you want to level up Sothe by boxing the priest in with three other units of yours and let Sothe 1 damage him forever until he dies, while gaining experience. You can do that right? Oh no wait, you can't. You prefer rushing through the game. So you're dumping bonus experience on Sothe instead, right? How is that less hurtful to your team than giving it to Rolf? That makes no sense to me. At least Rolf can shoot a bow. Sothe wants to go open chests that any other unit in their right mind (ie with a chest key) can do.
Volke is not for this level. Nossir. Sothe doesn't even exist yet. But...*gasp* you're going to want some support. Holy crap, you've got Rolf. Forget the other supports. At least for earlygame utility, have Rolf something along the lines with C Mordecai, go up to Zihark. Nab him, then have Rolf pick on a few units for experience. Mordy shouldn't be transformed yet. Have them run like hell! I mean, hell. Send unarmed Titania up there to rescue Rolf after he's fired a potshot at an unsuspecting, yet still alive Vigilante before running away. Let's say you did have Sothe, and you'd send Sothe up there to do something like that...he'd die.
Aw man. Sothe is a better unit that Rolf because Sothe can do a one damage hit. Oh man. Oh man. I might as well throw in the towel now. Shit, I've beaten the game cuz Sothe can do one damage. Seriously. Rolf can do more than 1 damage, and get good amount of experiience, so chillax on that, okay?
Because Sothe NEVER EVER EVER needs to be in enemy range EVER. There are never chests that are being guarded by enemy units, there are no such things as long range spells or ballistae, and there are no such thing as reinforcements from various portions of the map. Oh, and if you're using a small team, like you're suggesting, there are going to be holes in your formation that more mobile enemy units can break through. Yeah, that's right. A larger team lets you spread the love on enemy turns, but a smaller team means your one unit is going to be attacked more often as a result. So what happens now? Well, I can only have so many formations with this tiny team, and that Paladin seems to have moved right around my guys and turned Sothe into a Sothe-ka-bob. Well rats. Seems, Reikken, you've led me astray with your false prophesies. You blasphemer. You should be stoned. Oh no wait. You already are because you made a dumbass suggestion like that!
Sothe will never ever be attacked in all of the history of ever. Good job. That's all I got from that.
Hey hey hey, stick to the game here. I don't appreciate those kinds of metaphors! Sothe's +15 avo from supports. Sothe is not getting anything from Astrid. She's getting Makalov, who can actually keep up with her. Astrid will be too busy playing backrow, then later on backrow/frontrow to hang around Sothe. Besides, she can move ahead much further than he is, and then she's going to be getting exp at an alarming rate anyways. She leaves Sothe in the dust. And Sothe is not getting Tormod either. Why? Well because if using Sothe means that I have to use Tormod, too, that's even worse. (Sound familiar?) This +15 avo you're boasting is non-existent, so don't bother.
As I just stated above, he gets no avo from his supports, because he's just not getting his supports. And of course he's not weak to bows and ballistae like Reyson. Sothe isn't a bird. Sothe also doesn't need to add another weakness to his list. That would make him...well...worse than ever.
So once again, where is he getting this experience from? How then is he getting decent supports, and how then is he even getting any semblance of durabiltiy. Is he going to poke every priest he finds? Usually its the priests poking the little boys, not the other way around. You're going to have a hard time backing up your claim if you can't tell me where you're getting this experience from. And if you say bonus experience, I am going to slap you, because you've been nagging on the fact that Rolf needs a little bonus experience boost.
Reikken, if you love numbers so much, why don't you just marry them?
Of course Rolf's offense is never on par with that of the top tier units. That's why he's in the low tier debates, silly. However, he's not so low tier that he can't contribute to the battle in any fashion. I mean, c'mon. Kieran is an axe knight. If he were losing to a little hamster kid with a bow, he'd be a pretty shitty axe knight. 20 Crit isn't that impressive, but it's better than most units in this game.
Well what's he doing back there? Masturbating? Tell Sothe to get a room. He can do that while he's not on the battlefield with the rest of my units. Sothe can practice self love, because he sure as hell ain't gettin no lovin from me!
Screw Rhys. We're not using him. We'll use Rolf. And we'll run him around with a couple C supports, instead of bumping one just straight up to A. Let's Mist x Jill A, Mist x Boyd C, Mist x Rolf C. Marcia x Kieran A, Marcia x Rolf B He doesn't get full support bonus, but he's got some good shit going for him there after all.
I can only assume you're talking about the Mist Support. Uh, hullo. Rolf x Mist is such harmwarming dialogue. Much better than any of the drivel Sothe can spout. Rolf actually has character development in this game, it's actually rather interesting. Sothe is just an uninteresting character for now. The only thing that makes Sothe slightly noteworthy is that he has a big part in the upcoming fire emblem. But that doesn't pertain to FE9, which we're debating right now.
I've been raggin on you real hard tonight, Reikken. So here. I'll just agree with you on this one. Then you can have a cookie. Then we'll go spoon and see if you've gotten better.
He'll always be safe there. There are never enemy reinforcements from behind, or longe range things...or fliers. Huh.
Of course I "fergatted" Sothe's supports. I purposely "fergatted" them because...well...they shouldn't exist in the first place.
I'm gonna find something for you. Maybe you'll remember it.
Huh. why are you bothering to use Tormod at all if you're so convinced that Soren is so much better, Reikky?
Yes, and I intend to. I'm using a small team, like you suggested, so what's the harm? It's not like he's being detrimental, as the team is still getting all the exp they need.
I'm a Taurus.
Yeah. It's not that big a deal. This game has plenty of experience. Mist can do her thing just fine. What still bothers me is really...where is Sothe getting all his experience from? Riddle me this, please?
Who. Who then am I going to use? Oh I know, I'll give Shinon a few levels. Or I'll give Gatrie a few levels. Oh no, maybe I'll give Janaff a few levels! Look, I'd much rather take
I got it from this place called "Truth". Pretty weird place, I know...but hey. They're usually right about things. TAKE THAT! |
   
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| Reikken | May 27 2007, 06:34 PM Post #8 |
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Whoa, whoa, whoa. Overreaction/10.
Doing 0 (or missing) nets you 1 exp. Of course Rolf gains more experience, provided that he can safely do anything; he's on a lower level. Is the level gap closing? Yes. Is it closing quickly? No. Though that brings up another point. It may be too dangerous to have him attack something, and he also almost always can only gain exp on player phase, so on closer examination, the level gap may be closing even slower, if it's even closing at all...!
Uh, yes.
Eh? What are you saying? And you also don't waste an Occult for a thoroughly useless skill, so you can instead use for a better one on a better character who actually can fight. Actually, no, there's not. You can't buy chest keys, and you get very few of them. With 80 hp doors, that takes way too long. And you can't steal without a thief. Chests don't attack. For the times that there's enemies in the chest room, Volke also sucks at fighting, so you're going to need to bring someone else anyway. Here's your numbers:
Unfortunately, this isn't a debaet about who looks the best. Only if you're sadistic enough, or just dumb enough, to make him attack someone who can do that to him. *shrug* If you can't believe things like 5+7=12, that's your problem.
Using a smaller team doesn't make Rolf catch up any faster. He gets more exp, and...everyone else gets more exp, too! He's still worse than nearly everyone else.
I don't know where you got the impression that this was an important point. It's clearly an afterthought, and I even said it was marginal.
Except...he's not getting attacked, so he can't be dying. And he's not dying in one hit, so it wouldn't matter even if he get take a stray hit. And combat skillz, and she doesn't need loads of babying/bexp to get there. Which is every single time he wants to do any kind of damage since Daggers suck so much.
Wow, you think so?
Because Volke taking counterattacks and being close to enemies makes it easier for him to stay alive. Oh wait, it doesn't. It does just the opposite. Actual exp? You mean exp from killing things? No you don't miss out on it. Going quickly =/= skipping enemies. You can go quickly and still do everything.
Yes, it does matter. You're spending mutliple turns attacking doors instead of killing enemies. You don't have to be attacking doors for your healers to be healing.
Sorry, Volke has no fiyar. Using a smaller team doesn't somehow make Rolf need less exp.
Overall, it's not good. Wyverns have more range than Rolf has, so they're attacking him first, and he can't counterattack. What's your point? Fewer characters = more exp per character regardless, and characters have to have been fighting to have gotten combat exp.
Preists can move, yes, and...so can Sothe! And he also has 2 more move than they have! Wow! And actually, the priests usually don't run away. No. You can if you want to, but it's not needed. Unlike with Rolf, who actually needs to have good stats to not sucks. except you can't buy chest keys
Rolf can't support Mordecai... And what's your point anyway? That Rolf has the ability to gain exp? That's quite an amazing find. He's still performing worse than nearly every other combat unit.
omgz, Rolf is better at fighting than Sothe is. omg
Sothe doesn't die in one hit, so it doesn't matter.
Sothe will never ever be attacked in all of the history of ever. Good job. That's all I got from that.
A Makalov still leaves room for B Sothe. It's more Sothe hanging around Astrid than Astrid hanging around Sothe. There's no negative effects on Astrid, only positive ones. And if he's not in range of his supporters, he can be even further back, so his avoid doesn't even matter.
Except Tormod doesn't suck. And if he's not in range of his supporters, he can be even further back, so his avoid doesn't even matter.
What's your point?
polygamy = phail
Of course he can do stuff, but he's still worse at fighting than nearly all other fighters.
He's doing whatever your sick mind can think of.
No way Mist is taking a support with Rolf, and definitely not a C since it sucks. +2 hit and 2 avoid. It doesn't much help Rolf anyway.
What's your point?
Thx. I like cookies. Well, as long as they're good cookies. Good thing, too, because everything kills him in one hit.
So what if Soren is better? So what?
The harm is that they're getting less exp. Just because everyone isn't massively underleveled doesn't mean that more exp doesn't help. osum
Titania, Jill, Kieran, Oscar, Boyd, Ike, Soren, Makalov, Marcia, Mist, Astrid, Tanith, Brom, Muarim, Nephenee, Zihark, Stefan, Geoffrey, Mordecai, Tormod, Ilyana, Tauroneo, Calill, Largo, Ranulf, Haar, Gatrie, Devdan, Lethe, Mia, Ulki, Janaff Something like that. Take your pick.
o noz, my only bow user. ...? So what?
Ironically, your "Truth" apparently doesn't give you truth.
<insert something here> |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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4:57 PM Nov 28
