| Welcome to Fire Emblem Fusion. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Sentenal vs CATS | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Jun 28 2007, 10:09 PM (460 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Jun 28 2007, 10:09 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
|
this should be hot |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
| |
 |
|
| Sentenal | Jun 30 2007, 06:11 PM Post #2 |
When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
|
Alright, Douglas vs Ward. If one was FORCED to use one of these two units, which one would you use? Douglas. Easily. Let me show you why: Douglas 20/8 HP: 46 STR: 19 SKL: 13 SPD: 8 DEF: 20 RES: 5 LUK: 11 Ward 2/0 HP: 28 STR: 8 SKL: 3 SPD: 5 DEF: 3 RES: 0 LUK: 4 lol 20/8 vs 2/0. Why am I doing this? Well, both units are bad. But, at least Douglas doesn't require work. In order for Ward to compete with Douglas, you have to use him. And Ward sucks. Using Ward means he is getting EXP I could have given units who actually are decent. Douglas sucks too, but at least you can't kill him, and doesn't need work. In Sacae, just have Douglas rescue Roy, and Roy can be safe and sound from all those Nomads everywhere who would beat the crap out of him. More than what Ward can do, anyway. |
| |
|
|
|
| C475_1337 | Jul 1 2007, 12:40 PM Post #3 |
One serious d00d
|
Because it makes your unit look better. Duh. But, it’s okay. This comparison is 100% meaningless, since Ward and Douglas obviously will never be at those levels when both are in the party. The same kind of comparisons would tell us that Marcus > Allen/Lance, Yunno > Thany, etc., which are all laughable conclusions.
No shit. This is low tiers, genius.
Hm, so, would you say Echidna > Dieck by the same logic? The Exp Dieck gets could have gone to Allen, Lance, Rutger, etc., while Echidna requires “no work.” How, then, can Dieck be ranked over Echidna on the tier list? How is Guy ranked over Karel? How is Rebecca ranked over Louise?  See, this thing about “lol exp stealing” is true of nearly any unpromoted unit(and even some promoted ones if they join early enough). *Any* kills you give a unit could have gone to other units, and it’s extremely likely that you have atleast a few other characters on the team who are better than the unit in question. So do all unpromoted units auto-phail? Nope. Once you’ve made the decision to use Ward, any Exp you give him makes him better, and thus makes the party overall better. It wouldn’t necessarily improve the party by a larger amount to give that Exp to Dieck instead; perhaps if he had a massive advantage in growths, but he does not(both units have exactly 270% total growths). A level to Ward is +2.7 stats; a level to Dieck is also +2.7 stats. So that’s it for that argument.
Can’t kill him? rofl. Look at this: Dragon Knight(Steel/Killer Lance) 47 Hp 20 Str 13 Skl 16 Spd 9 Luck 16 Def 3 Res 10 Con Dragon Master(Silver Lance) 60 Hp 26 Str 16 Skl 16 Spd 9 Luck 19 Def 4 Res 11 Con ??/13 Douglas takes 7.5 Dmg from a Steel Lance Knight at 44 Hit and possibly gets DA’d. The Killer Lance Dragon Knight does the same 7.5 Dmg, but does it with 64 Hit and 24 Crit, and certainly DAs. Douglas has about a 1/3 chance of getting Crit’d on one out of those two attacks, and if that happens and the thing lands its other hit, then he takes a total of 30 Dmg. Over half his Hp gone in one round. Then try to Dragon Master; 17.5 Dmg + DA at 60% Hit. If both of those land Douglas is even worse off, losing 35 out of 49 Hp from one round of combat. So yeah, I have no clue where you got the idea that Douglas doesn’t die. lolroflwtfbbq @ that. Now, how would Ward fare in this situation? 20/10 Ward + A Lott/B Dieck is taking 13 Dmg from the Steel Lance Knight, however, the thing also has only 9% Hit on him. He also has more Hp than Douglas; he’d have to get attacked 5 times to even have a chance of death. Douglas dies from 7 hits, but there’s also a chance of him getting doubled, so it’s about the same. Except, ofcourse, that the enemy has a totally negligible chance of actually hitting Ward. It’s worse against the other stuff. The Killer Lanced00d is guaranteed to double Douglas, but Ward has a chance of avoiding it; meanwhile, the Hit gap is even more(57% less chance to hit Ward), and Ward has only an 8% chance of taking a Crit, as opposed to Douglas’s 24%. The Master is perhaps the worst of all; it kills both units in 3 hits, so Douglas’s higher Def doesn’t even matter. Douglas, the guy you like to parade as unkillable, losing to Ward at defense? Hax? Ward pretty clearly pwns Douglas at offense too. No need to even rly go there. At the levels in the above comparison, about 8 more Atk, 21 more Hit, 19 more Crit, Bows for pawning fliers(like those wyverns lol). Ward vs Douglas at any other point is still pretty much a sob story. Ward is beating Douglas by a significant amount in Spd? lolwtf. Plus, Ward actually has supports. Even better, some of those people actually want to support him. Ward’s supports are making those pplz better; Douglas’s supports are making no one better. Point: Ward. Last but not least, Douglas has lol5Move. Ward has the average 6. Winner: Ward.
I beg to differ. 20/4 Ward + A Lott/B Dieck has 52 Hp/14 Def/50 Avo(with Roy in tow). The Nomads do like double 4’s to his 52 Hp; he’d have to get attacked by 7 of them on the same turn to die, and all 14 of their shots would have to land, which isn’t even close to likely. Ward is better than Douglas for about the same reasons that Guy is better than Karel, or Rebecca better than Louise. Ward completely 0wns him in combat ability and has supports that are actually helping others out. |
|
For a glimpse into the Wonderful World of FEW, click here! Link leads to the best topic ever! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9819cZZ6Nw...related&search= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVH2i6nvjsM&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAooq7e0gg0 http://youtube.com/watch?v=t6ETt94q2os http://youtube.com/watch?v=hSVNbxjdvv8 BEST SITE EVER: http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index...ARGIN_MAH_LAZER | |
|
|
|
| Sentenal | Jul 2 2007, 10:16 PM Post #4 |
|
When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
|
The difference here, is that Allen/Lance are actually good. Ward, is not. You have admitted such yourself.
So why level a bad unit?
lol@ comparing Dieck to Ward. Dieck, Guy, and Rebecca are all good units. Not "I miss everything and never double attack, in fact, I GET doubled" like Ward.
Yes, but the thing is, you give EXP to good units. You don't give them to bad ones.
Wtf? Dieck is TONS better than Ward, I dunno what you are talking about. One, Dieck has plenty SPD to double most enemies. Ward doesn't ever double, unless going against a really slow enemy. Second, Dieck supports two incredible units, and good bonuses at that. Second, Dieck actually has enough SKL to use Axes effectively. Ward's SKL is pathetic. And, tieing back to that SPD, Ward doesn't have good avoid. And he doesn't have good DEF. Those two make a bad combination defensively. So, Ward is bad in both offense and Defense. Much worse compared to Dieck. Dieck is good, so you level him.
Ward is never leveled, so therefore he couldn't possibly do better that Douglas. Prove Ward to be a decent unit, and then I'll address your posts. Ward can't even get past Sacae. Ward rapes your combat rating the entire game if you level him. Ward has terrible offense. He has low SKL, and low SPD, and locked into axes, the most inaccurate weapon type in the game. So, therefore, even leveling up Ward to compete with Douglas at base hurts you trying to S rank. Douglas does not. Prepromotes FTW. Ward also costs 10k more than Douglas. So, he is worse in that regard as well. Stop keeping me from S-ranking, Ward!!!
No one wants to support Ward. Dieck? Give me B Rutger, B Clarine, C Lott anyday. Anima>>>Fire. Lott? Eh, I guess he might get Lott support. Regardless, Ward would only get Lott A at the most. And Douglas? You know, he supports Percival, right? Percival's only support is Lalum. And Douglas' support is faster. So, Douglas would get Percival A at the least, in case Echidna isn't used, and therefore Lalum has room for him. So Percival A at the worst, Percival A Lalum B at best. So, win, Douglas, in supports.
And they do 0 damage to Douglas. Nomads, Nomad Troopers, Myrmidons, and Swordmasters, all do 0 damage to Douglas. And they are the majority of enemies in Sacae. And Swordmasters, and Myrmidons, are especially dangerous. To Ward at least. Nomad Troopers double for 7, so 14 damage in one round. Not good. Plus, this is all lol assuming that Ward is used. And that he has Dieck support. So, really, this debate is simple. You have to prove that Ward is worth using. If he is, and therefore leveled, he might be slightly better than Douglas. But, if Ward is bad, you don't use him. And therefore, Douglas wins by default. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| C475_1337 | Jul 3 2007, 10:29 AM Post #5 |
|
One serious d00d
|
What exactly is your point? Does this fact somehow make it realistic to compare and judge units on base stats alone?
Again, what exactly is your point? Regardless of whether anyone is "good" or not, when they take Exp, they're preventing other units from getting that Exp. Including units who are better than they are. The only exception is the very best unit of each game. Your line of reasoning would lead us to believe that no unpromoted units below the toptier should ever be used, because they'd be taking Exp which could otherwise have gone to said superior toptier units.
No. If someone like Ward is on the team, it is in your best interest to level him up. Believe it or not, he gains stats when he levels up just like anyone else. As much as you may wish it didn't, gaining Exp will indeed make him better, just like anyone else. Why, then, should he receive less Exp than anyone else? Because he's "not good?" Why would that matter? That's no better than saying he shouldn't get supports because he's "not good." Whether he's "good" or not is quite irrelevant. It has absolutely nothing to do with the amount he (and therefore the team overall) improves when given things such as Exp and Supports. And yes, the amount by which he improves is what matters; the best way to use your resources is in the way which improves the team most. That's common sense.
:richie: You've yet again managed to completely miss the point. Dieck is indeed a better unit than Ward. That has no relevance whatsoever to the point being made. The point is that, if both units are on the team, then giving Exp to Dieck doesn't improve your team any more than giving it to Ward instead. Their growth totals and stat gains per level are the same. A level to Dieck is +2.7 stats for you; a level to Ward is also +2.7 stats. Both make almost the exact same use of Exp. In the face of these facts, there is absolutely no reason Ward would be neglected in favor of Dieck. If he's played, then he's going to be levelled.
This is rather silly. Ofcourse he's not a decent unit. This is low tiers. Guess what? Douglas isn't a decent unit either. He sucks even more, in fact. You seem to be operating under the logic of "well ward won't even be used cause he's bad so it doesn't matter what you say." The exact same logic works perfectly in the opposite direction, so just what are getting at? This debaet is not going to get anywhere by assuming that bad units aren't used. It can't be carried out at all under the assumption that the two units being debated are not even played.
Douglas's offense is even worse, so I don't see what you're trying to prove. Ward rapes the combat rank? The combat rank is based on a percentage of how many rounds of combat result in a kill. Ideally you want to one-round enemies. Unfortunately, this game's enemies have ridiculous Hp/Def and are very difficult to one-round. Even Allen and Lance can't 2HKO Dragon Masters. Percival has trouble even hitting Nomads, much less doubling and 2HKO'ing them. Even Miledy can't 2HKO some of the Heroes and such, not even with a Silver Lance. If god tier units have trouble one-rounding, then mid tier units(who are supposedly better than Ward) barely even know the meaning of a one-round kill. A unit that rarely if ever one-rounds doesn't look bad at all by such standards. Ward is hardly "raping" the combat rank any more than most other folks.
No. FE7 gives you about 500,000G to spend even *after* setting aside the money needed to S Rank, and this game's Funds Rating is considerably more lenient even than that. So this doesn't matter one bit; it's less than a drop in the bucket.
Percival's only support is Lalum? Did you forget that Klein and Elphin exist? Those start earlier and only have 10 fewer base turns, and so they're better for Percy than Douglas. If Elphin is used, he'd take Klein and Percival before Douglas(Klein/Percival/Elphin is actually a nice support triangle); if Lalum is used, she'd take Echidna and Geese before Douglas; if Percival is used, he'd take Klein and Elphin before Douglas. This is not to say Douglas can't get any of these supports; it's just that they're not guaranteed by any means. On the other hand, Ward is a top option for both Lott and Dieck: Dieck x Ward B: +1 Atk/+1 Def/+10 Avo/+5 Hit/+10 Crit/+5 CEV Dieck x Rutger B: +0 Atk/+1 Def/+10 Avo/+5 Hit/+10 Crit/+10 CEV Dieck x Clarine B: +0 Atk/+2 Def/+10 Avo/+0 Hit/+10 Crit/+10 CEV The bonuses from Clarine are about even with those from Ward at the very best, and Ward’s bonuses are clearly better than Rutger’s(yes, 1 Atk > 5 CEV). And then the Ward Support is significantly faster; builds at a rate of +2 vs Rutger/Clarine’s +1, and Ward Support also has a higher base than Rutger. Plus Ward joins 2 chapters earlier than either Rutger or Clarine. If I was Dieck I’d sure want to support Ward. Equal or better bonuses at a faster rate ftw. More importantly than their options, Douglas joins extremely late. Ward's supports have been helping for the entire game before then, and Douglas can't have supports when he first joins, so it's still full supports vs no supports for a bit after that too. Plus, two of Douglas's options are dancers/bards, meaning offensive bonuses are 100% useless on them and defensive bonuses have a smaller impact as well(since you never want them to be getting attacked and they're among the easiest units to keep out of harm's way). So the bonuses from those two supports aren't doing as much as the bonuses from Ward's supports anyway. Ward's supports are helping alot more than Douglas's. Also, you haven't mentioned anything about the Exp Rank yet. I wonder why? Maybe cause Ward is helping it alot more by levelling up to promotion and then gaining more Exp per kill even after that(if Douglas wants to have a level lead, atleast). You didn't even bother to address the passages about Ward vs Douglas in terms of raw combat performance, so I don't see the need to keep elaborating on that. Suffice it to say that ignoring those passages will not make them disappear, nor will it make them invalid.
This whole thing is about how good Ward is, and so ofcourse he's being used. And if he's being used, ofcourse he's levelled. Slightly better than Douglas? No, it's much more than "slightly" better. Ward crushes him offensively for the entire time that both units are in the party, beating him in every single offensive stat. Douglas's only advantage is his higher Def, but Ward's beating him in every other defensive stat, and so he smashes Douglas regardless. -Ward dominates Douglas in the most important area(combat performance) for the entire time that both units are in the party. This point has not even been contested. -Ward's more mobile than Douglas. -Ward's supports help alot more than Douglas. -Ward helps the Exp Rank more than Douglas. What significant advantages does Douglas have? Well, it was your job to point those out, but so far I still can't find any. Your only point so far has been "Ward is bad." I'm baffled as to why you would even bother to point this out in a low tiers tournament. Perhaps if Douglas were not also bad(he's even worse, in fact) it would be worth noting, but such is not the case. |
|
For a glimpse into the Wonderful World of FEW, click here! Link leads to the best topic ever! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9819cZZ6Nw...related&search= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVH2i6nvjsM&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAooq7e0gg0 http://youtube.com/watch?v=t6ETt94q2os http://youtube.com/watch?v=hSVNbxjdvv8 BEST SITE EVER: http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index...ARGIN_MAH_LAZER | |
|
|
|
| Sentenal | Jul 4 2007, 09:49 PM Post #6 |
|
When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
|
CATS, come now. Lets follow the logic: In a Ranked run, you don't use Low Tier units. You bench them. Units don't gain EXP on the bench. Ward is Low Tier. You bench Ward. Ward gets no EXP, because he is on the bench. Ward stays at his base the entire game for being low tier and not getting EXP. Okay, with me up to here? Now: Ward stays at his base the entire game due to being low tier and not getting any EXP due to being benched. Douglas' base stats are better than Ward's base stats. Therefore, Douglas is better by default, due to having better base stats, since neither gets any EXP ever. There, you see? Since both units are bad and are never used, they both stay at their base level the entire game. And Douglas has better bases, therefore Douglas is better by default. BTW: Ward being used, takes up a slot that a non-low tier unit could use. Hurts team. Ward being used, takes up EXP that a non-low tier unit could use. Hurts team. Ward isn't used, therefore bases determine who is better. Unless Ward isn't Low Tier. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| C475_1337 | Jul 4 2007, 11:10 PM Post #7 |
|
One serious d00d
|
If both are benched the entire game, then guess what? Higher stats means nothing at all. If you aren't even fielded then it hardly matters what your stats are. Infact nothing at all about you matters in that scenario. You aren't doing anything at all, regardless of what you might be capable of. In such a scenario it would be a tie, due to both units doing nothing. That would also render this debaet (and indeed, this entire tournament, were the same line of thought applied to every match) quite pointless. Now, in the event that these units *are* fielded, then Ward *is* levelled; and when he's been levelled, Ward is very clearly better than Douglas, regardless of what the General tries to do. Scenarios where Douglas is better? Zero. Scenarios where Ward is better? One. Winner? Ward. |
|
For a glimpse into the Wonderful World of FEW, click here! Link leads to the best topic ever! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9819cZZ6Nw...related&search= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVH2i6nvjsM&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAooq7e0gg0 http://youtube.com/watch?v=t6ETt94q2os http://youtube.com/watch?v=hSVNbxjdvv8 BEST SITE EVER: http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index...ARGIN_MAH_LAZER | |
|
|
|
| +Ema Skye | Jul 4 2007, 11:49 PM Post #8 |
|
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
|
Vote. |
|
MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH
| |
|
|
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| « Previous Topic · Debates · Next Topic » |
4:50 PM Nov 27
