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| Bean vs Crysta | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 9 2007, 10:09 PM (323 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Jul 9 2007, 10:09 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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uh ohz 
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 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Bean | Jul 10 2007, 09:47 AM Post #2 |
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Bean
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I'm afraid of you.  First of all let's talk about Kent. Kent has quite possibly the best class- Cavalier > Paladin. That means all weapons and mounted advantages. He is not as strong as his counterpart, Sain, but makes up for it in SKL and SPD. He starts out with lances and swords. He has Lyn's mode to boost him several levels (plus Nils abuse to get 19xx). In HHM, he joins in Chapter 16, at around Level 11 we'll say. Florina gets the same boost. While we're at it, let's talk about her. She's a pegasus knight, giving her high MOV and she ignores terrain bonuses/penalties. She may have a weakness to bows, but you'd have to be really stupid to let her get hit. Most enemy bow users can be killed in a round, anyway. She starts out with just lances. Their 11/0 stats:
Since she only needs 2 points to get a C support with Lyn, might as well give her that, too. Kent has some marginal wins in STR (but is negated by the Lyn support) and DEF, and a fairly good win in HP. Florina has a marginal win in SKL and a good one in SPD (though Kent has CON, more on that later). She rapes him in RES and LUK. So really, all Kent wins in his HP and DEF. However, since Florina has better avoid (42, compared to 28), she will not receive as many hits. Kent does have one thing over Florina- the ability to use two weapons. That means against axe users and sword users, he'll have the WT boost. Florina only has it against sword users, so he does have a win there. However, this game isn't just full of enemy melee units. It has magic units, as well, which Florina has the edge against thanks to her decent RES. Now for CON. Florina's CON sucks. However, this is fixed by her high SPD. An Iron Lance will take her 11/0 AS from 15 to 11, 1 below Kent's. It drags her evade down to 34 as well. This does not stop her from doubling more enemies than the majority of the characters, though. She can use the weaker Slim Lance and maintain her AS, though. (And if she's fighting an enemy with it that she can double, but Kent cannot, she'll do more damage.) Let's skip ahead to endgame for now. Midgame will be covered later. Both units are 20/12, give or take a few levels. Florina has A Lyn and B Hector just for the helluvit. Kent has A Sain and B Lyn.
Florina got swords and Kent got axes. With swords, Florina doesn't lose as much AS. She doesn't lose any from Iron Swords and she only loses 3 from Iron Lances. (Iron is best to buy because it's cheap.) She now has weapon manipulation and can get WT a lot now. Kent can get it anytime, true, but Florina still has better HIT/EVD most of the time. Florina has higher AS, which means she doubles more and can do more damage. Kent does have the higher HP rating, but it won't matter much if you almost never get hit. He has the higher ATK, but if Florina doubles more, she can do more damage. I end here. Your turn. |
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| Crysta | Jul 10 2007, 07:55 PM Post #3 |
yay for conformity!
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I'd probably be scared, too, if I wasn't up against a frilly peg knight. It's difficult to be afraid of Florina. Florina may get the same Lyn boost, but the likelihood of her garnering the same amount of levels as Kent or Sain or just about any unit with actual durability is rather low unless you particularly like Florina for some reason. She's good to take care of the magic users and a few of the weak swordies, but she definitely isn't the muscle part of that party. She takes awhile to get going. Kent, on the other hand, is being used at the front and is an integral part of the Lyn mode party. He also won't die as easily and he doesn't have bows to worry about. Kent > Florina in Lyn's Mode. Hell, Kent > Florina for the entire game.
Not as many, but the ones which do hit will hurt more. Florina will get hit in the early portion of the game, so she can be a bit of a hassle to keep alive unless you're careful. I'm going to be nice and assume you are.
True, but there's more melee units. As the game progresses it's easier it is to OHKO those magic users, too. She'd have an edge over the higher-tier guys, but the melee units far outnumber those. Her usability is dependant on the field make-up and therefore limited, whereas Kent is a lot more flexible and reliable. He's a good handyman like most cavaliers -> paladins.
Doesn't that make her Spd lead a little pointless, then? Her low Con destroys that Spd / AS lead and makes her worse than Kent in that area. The evasion lead isn't mind-boggling, either. 28 versus 34 is 6. The loss in Luk and Res is fine as far as I'm concerned, since I'd much rather score in other stats... unless I'm a pegasus knight. Actually, I probably wouldn't mind more Def and Con as a pegknight, too.
Okay, lets see how grand this AS lead really is... Weapons each can use without AS/Spd loss after promotion:
Mind you, Kent doesn't have doubling issues at this point. He could wield that Steel Sword better than Florina could (no AS loss, more AS anyway, more might) and will most likely double with it. Hell, most of the time even Kent + Iron Sword > Florina + Iron Sword. The marginal might lead is worth it if you're doubling regardless. |
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen
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| Bean | Jul 10 2007, 09:44 PM Post #4 |
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Bean
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Yeah, I got stuck with a frilly peg knight. ._. Shouldn't have registered so late. Anyway...
Nils abuse. I'm not one to abuse, but you'll need to spam 60 dances for 19xx. Florina can get some of those dances and get moar EXP.
I'll give him Lyn's mode. But this debate is mainly over HHM. We'll just have to see for the latter.
11/0 Kent: 29 HP, 8 DEF 11/0 Florina: 23 HP, 6 DEF Kent isn't doing that much better. Kent will receive two more shots than her at the most (against a really weak enemy). I wouldn't put anybody but Oswin or Marcus down for really good durability at this point in the game.
She still does just as much damage as Kent thanks to her quick Lyn support, except against axe users (but Axereaver can fix that; it makes her slow, but axe users are even slower). She can still fight quite efficiently. And after promotion she won't be that behind in terms of damage thanks to her +2 STR boost. In fact, she may be on par if she decides to B Fiora instead of Hector (not a bad decision since Fiora is still a decent unit with good supports, albeit being underlevelled). As to her being limited, that isn't really true since she can dish out damage like Kent and evade better. In fact, let's look again at endgame stats with Florina A Lyn/B Fiora and Kent B Lyn/A Sain. I'll counter your AS points here as well. You gave a chart showing what weapons Florina can use without losing AS. But let's make it a little different. Since you say that Kent's 21 AS is good enough, we'll see how many weapons Florina can carry without falling below that. We'll also look at the new attack ratings. BTW, the differences between B Fiora and B Hector are:
Now for the new list:
She seems to be doing quite fine in terms of damage. Just give her an Iron Lance. As to Kent's 21 SPD, he'll be doubling a majority of the enemies. However, he won't be doubling some of the faster units like myrmidons or mercenaries with heavy weapons. At max SPD, he won't have enough AS to double some of the faster prepremotes that pop up late game. That means that Florina with a Killing Lance, Light Brand, or Lancereaver can't do it either. Oh, well. Iron Lance ftw.
This is only early game, however. Her SPD/LUK start raping Kent later on.
He'll need LUK to avoid. And to be honest, his LUK's pretty crappy, so his avoid will never surpass Florina's. And RES is always nice to have. Florina's RES at least makes her a reliable mage killer.
Most of the time? They're equal, unless the enemy has at least 18 AS (and some certain enemies DO have that). There, Florina wins. Let's move on to other topics. As we know, Kent is a cavalier. What do cavaliers need to promote? Knight Crests. Our units will reach Level 20 sometime around Ch. 20-22. You get an Elysian Whip in 18. You also get a Knight's Crest in 17 and one in 22 (Florina will probably be promoted by then). Florina's competition for the Elysian Whip: -Fiora- too underlevelled -Heath- above -Farina- lol + not even here yet Kent's competition for the Knight's Crest: -Sain- good, strong cavalier that joins along with Kent -Lowen- good, tanky cavalier with good supports -Oswin- da man Florina is sure to get the Elysian Whip. Kent, on the other hand... Let's face it. Oswin is bound to get one of them because he's h4x and needs the MOV boost. So that leaves one for three people. (There are more Knight's Crests later on, but if Kent gets those, that means he's behind in levels.) Now, out of the remaining three, somee believe that Lowen should get it due to his potential to be tank. If you promote him early, he'll really shine thanks to axes which allow him to do good damage and 16.2 DEF (more with Marcus/Eliwood supports). And there are more that think Sain should be promoted due to high STR. Though there are those that promote Kent, there is always the possibility that he will end up not getting promoted until later, hindering his midgame capabilities. Florina is almost sure to promote by Chapter 22. Speaking of 22, Chapter 22x that requires that you get 700 EXP in the preceding chapter, which is on a big desert. It can be a pain in the ass without a good flying unit. Kent and other mounts are really useless on this chapter. Florina can move around freely and pick off those crappy mages and the like. Having a promoted Florina can help you win this chapter easily and not have Pent eat your ratings. If there are ANY level disadvantages for Florina right now, this is where it is all fixed. So what have we learned? -Florina can do just as enough damage as Kent and sometimes a lot more. -Kent has competition with Lowen, Sain, and Oswin. -Florina's low CON is not that big of a problem. -Kent has really no advantages lategame except for WTA. Florina has evasion and power. |
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| Crysta | Jul 10 2007, 11:37 PM Post #5 |
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yay for conformity!
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So could anyone else and they're usually more beneficial.
+6 HP and +2 Def... if 2 HP = 1 Def, that's the equivalent of +3 Def. That'd be +5 Def. I'd consider that sizeable.  Against Marcus and Oswin he's nub, against Florina he is not. He's not being compared to two pre-promos, though.
Not once Kent gets his Sain supports, which are also quick. The combination wields a total of +3 Atk, +1 Def/Res, +7 Hit, +7 Evd, +7 Crit, +15 Crit Evd. In addition to that he can also snag a B in Lyn or Fiora. He's not losing in the support department. 
Kent has complete WTA after promotion, plenty of evasion and AS (not as much, but plenty), and good support bonuses. He can pwn enemies she can't. Have him equip an axe and cleave those pesky wyverns, or a hammer to one-round generals. You don't need godly AS or evade for that. You do need might and the actual weapon, though.
The point was that Kent has enough AS to double most enemies and can wield the same weapons just as efficiently or better than Florina (usually better), ultimately making him a better choice as a fighter against the majority of the game. There's not much of a point in choosing Florina over him unless it's against high-tier magic users, a minority of the enemies in the game.
He hardly needs to. He'll either OHKO them or take a small amount of damage whilst still one-rounding them. He hardly needs heavy weapons for those guys.
Swordmasters are the only ones I can think off the top of my head. Maybe Nomadic troopers, and Florina is certainly not going near them. He'll be raping a lot more than Florina in the lategame regardless. She can't pwn the beefcakes like Kent can (refer to my earlier point about the axe usefulness), so that easily makes up for her advantage with magic users.
Lategame he's fine in the speed department, as I stated before, and his supports cure any critical evasion deficiency he may have due to lack of Luk. Hell, he's doing well in just about every department.
Looking pretty fine, Kent-a-lent.
wut? Kent does more damage. If you give Florina her support bonuses, you should give Kent his. It's not a whole lot, but it's still better when they're both doubling. If he's not doubling, sure, but it's still "most of the time".
Kent should be promoted around Chapter 21 if you don't favor Sain or Lowen. The first crest usually goes to Oswin. That eliminates him as far as I'm concerned. Lowen is a tank, but his offense leaves more to be desired. Sain is the opposite, with overkill offense and less defense. Kent is a good middleground unit with less weaknesses and unlike Sain has a feasible B support option. Any offensive boosters Lowen may get, Kent may receive as well. They're the same class. It's a possibility but hardly a guarantee nor a better decision to promote another cavalier.
It's also got a lot of archers, wyverns, and the two bosses are axe-wielding warriors. Good luck evading all of those. In conclusion:
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~ Crysta, Zombie Queen
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| Bean | Jul 12 2007, 07:50 PM Post #6 |
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Bean
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We have Kent, Sain, Erk, Florina, Rath, Wil, Lucius, Wallace, Lyn, and Serra (who’s a healer) to abuse. Florina > Lyn/Wil due to higher move, better weapons, and better stats. Lucius has terrible durability. Rath joins really underlevelled. Sain’s durability and speed aren’t too amazing either. Wallace is just no. I’d say Florina is more beneficial than a lot of these characters.
I believe I forgot to mention the super sexy Lyn support, so it’s really 7 DEF, not 6. As to HP, you can’t really convert it into DEF points. We should compare to actual enemies, who at this point in the game have around 16-19 ATK. So at the most, Kent can really only take one more hit than Florina. And since her evasion can be a lot higher, depending on her weapon, so I’d say it evens out.
The thing is Florina/Lyn can be gotten to A before Kent/(Sain/Fiora/Lyn) can get to B, so she has these advantages earlier. She gets pretty much the same bonuses, but a lot faster.
This does not stop Florina from killing things easily and nearly never getting hit. 75 base avoid is too h4x. And it’s true Kent can get WTA, but Florina doesn’t need it. She has enough WT manipulation and doesn’t need the WTA bonuses. She pretty much can’t miss, can dodge really well, and kill efficiently. She has plenty of attack. Kent has good AS, and can double with light weapons most of the times. So what? Florina has excellent AS and can double everything save the one or two enemies that nobody can double except 20/12 Guy. The differences between the two: Kent- doubles most of the time, kills most of the time, dodges sometimes, has WTA Florina- doubles everything save really fast swordmasters, kills most of the time, dodges most of the time, has WT manipulation
Armorslayer! *shot* But seriously, since those guys are slow, she can use heavy weapons like:
If they’re wielding axes, then she’d use a sword of course. Against those guys, I don’t think she’d have much of a problem. With her high SKL, she’ll have a good chance of scoring CRITS. She still has 32 ATK with an Iron Lance as well. I doubt those guys have more than 25 DEF. I think she can still own those guys. And there are Heavy Spears too. They may weigh her down, but let’s not forget we’re talking about generals. As for one rounding with a hammer, so what? You can one round generals with swords and lances, too.
Almost All > Most As for better power? That is agreeable, though it is hardly needed. Florina has enough attack to kill enemies. She doesn’t need as much as Kent. After promotion, she is on par with Kent in terms of killing. She beats him in evasion, however.
But not for their promoted forms. There are heroes/swordmasters/nomads with 18+ AS. Kent won’t be doubling those guys, but Florina can. And for the regular mercenaries/myrmidons, Florina can OHKO them as well.
Heroes, SMs, Valkyries, and Nomadic Troopers can have 18+ AS. (Possibly more.) And what about axes? With an iron axe, he beats Florina w/Iron Lance by 1 measly ATK. I think there’s something you’ve missed. As for Florina vs. Nmd Troopers, she can one round them since she can actually double them. With a large group of them, of course you wouldn’t want them near her. You could say the same for enemy mages with Kent. Oh, and something about Kent and Florina's STR you seem to be confused about: Florina: 18.9 Kent: 19.0 WHAOMG! THEY'RE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME! This means that Kent and Florina do the same amount of damage when wielding the same weapon. They both receive 5 attack from supports. It’s just that Kent has axes. And really, Kent should only be using Iron Axes, since the others will weigh him down. Killer Edges, Steel Swords, Lancereavers, Light Brands, and Killer Lances (maybe more I missed) give Florina more power and only brings her down to 21 AS, the same as Kent’s. My point: Kent can’t do more damage than Florina without losing AS. They are pretty much the same offensive wise, except when Florina doubles.
He’s fine. Florina’s just better. Florina will have more evade because of his bad LUK, too.
I did. Same damage.
*22. Florina may be promoted earlier, giving her a chance to go ahead a bit statistically.
Is 1-3 points in ATK really that big of a deal? Lowen is not as fast as Kent, but he is better at taking hits. He has more avoid than Kent thanks to good LUK and supports, as well as higher DEF (RES is also pretty bad). He does not have high AS, but his job is to be a mobile tank. He also has a chance to sneak in more supports before Kent joins.
Less defense? Sure, in RES, but Kent sucks there too. For the first half of the game, Sain is beating Kent marginally in DEF. Kent only beats him at the very, very end 14.5 to 14.0. Sain’s not as fast, but his really high power makes up for that so his single shots hit hard.
Less weaknesses? As far as I’m concerned, Sain’s only major weaknesses are RES (again, Kent does not fare much better here) and low AS (again, his STR is really high so it doesn’t bother him that much and it still enables him to double some enemies). SKL is easily fixed by WT manipulation. And feasible B support? Lawl. Serra? Priscilla? Rebecca/Fiora are decent. Hell, Rebecca > Lyn. Lyn is better than Rebecca early game, but her late promotion drags her down. Rebecca will easily surpass her in terms of evasion and offense later on.
But if another cavalier is promoted instead of Kent, then Florina will definitely do better in the latter half of the game. The next Knight’s Crest won’t be until 5 chapters later.
Supports not included, but the result won’t be much different. Not only will Kent lag behind, but his SPD won’t be enough to double some of the enemies on Ch. 26-7. (Some 14-18 AS enemies on these chapters.)
Let’s not forget that mages can move too, though you probably only have Erk and Priscilla to really help. But they can take wyverns and archers. And the archers aren’t in big groups so Florina can fly up to them and kill them (let’s also not forget that Fiora is also a flying unit and can activate support bonuses with her). As to the two bosses, if Florina’s promoted, she gets to use swords, making her evasion even higher and she’ll do more damage.
Kent doesn’t do more damage either, except before promotion. But there, he doesn’t do much more damage (unlike Sain). She does double more than him, though not SIGNIFICANTLY. Some > None
WTF. Priscilla/Serra/Rebecca/possibly Fiora > Lyn. Plus, they give sufficient to good bonuses.
It doesn’t really pwn Lowen. Lowen has more time to build supports and Lowen’s defense pwns Kent’s. Lowen wins in evasion, physical defense, and HP. I ask again, is 1-3 more points in ATK that big of a deal?
Once they gain 4 measly levels after they rejoin in HHM, Florina’s AS lead starts kicking in again (using Iron Lance, with Slim Lance, the AS lead is always there). And Kent’s STR is nullified thanks to Florina’s 2 turn support with Lyn (+1 ATK). Kent takes 17 turns to support with Sain(+1). Florina will gain B with Lyn quickly after that, once again nullifying the STR lead(+2). And then there’s also Fiora. Florina gets C faster with that, making her stronger temporarily(+3). It’s nullified when Kent gets C with Fiora(+3). Then, bam. Florina hits A with Lyn and B with Fiora(+5). Then Kent hits B Sain and B Fiora(+4). And finally, he reaches A Sain(+5). But by that time, Florina may have already promoted, so any lead is nullified thanks to a +2 STR boost for her. If he’s supporting Lyn and not Fiora, the story’s not that different. Kent usually doesn’t do more damage.
Florina does just as much damage as Kent, except sometimes she doubles more and she has more resistance. She does not need more weapons because she has manipulation and may use a Lancereaver (which does not drag her AS down below Kent’s max AS) when needed. Oh, and she pretty much never gets hit. To sum things up: -Florina’s faster supports enable her to keep up with Kent’s STR lead. After promotion, it is nullified. -Florina may have low CON, but since her SPD gets so good later on, her AS becomes hard to drag down low. -Kent sometimes dodges. Florina almost always dodges. -Kent doubles most enemies. Florina almost always (I’m talking all enemies endgame save for like really uber SMs) doubles enemies. -Florina can fight magic users without receiving a lot of damage. Kent may not have to, but being able to do more things is good, m i rite? And so I’m out. GG. |
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| Crysta | Jul 16 2007, 01:43 AM Post #7 |
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yay for conformity!
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I'm tired, so I'm kinda' flinging this. Well sorta'. @_@
Boss abuse is a good source of experience, and that's usually what you want Nils to help you abuse. She sucks at nearly every boss. She's also frail at that stage and doesn't have the h4xed evasion that should be her saving grace. Kent, Sain, Erk, Matthew, Serra, and even Lyn would be a better asset to invest in.
Kent has a sizeable HP and Defense lead. As the game progresses I'm pretty sure he stays standing considerably longer than she does. Even if it's only just one more hit, it can still mean the difference between life and death very easily. If he lives through the round and she doesn't, she is clearly better.
Kent's support is not as quick, but you have to wait for Fiora. Kent can pimp Lyn and get Sain at the side. He will have the supports he wants for the majority of the game.
Kent kills things easier and kills more things. He has axes. She gains no evasion in her supports, too, while Kent gets some.
She has excellent AS but it means little. At that point it's just a higher number. Kent has no AS problems at all and doubles just as much as she does.
Kent doubles just as much as she does and has WTA. He has no problems and one great advantage against her.
There's only three generals which use axes, I'm afraid. I think she does have much of a problem. Kent still one-rounds them with a hammer and it's more definite than a critical.
Almost All = Most Seriously, unless it's 'all', that's the same thing.
It's not "needed", but neither is overkill AS. It's still a point.
No, she isn't, because Kent has WTA and more weapons. How can someone who doesn't have that compete with someone who does have it?
Florina's support bonuses in evade = 0 Kent's = 12 Kent has WTA, i.e axes. It gives him 15 more. I'm having doubts about even that.
There's none who have an AS over 18. There's one omfgfast swordmaster. The fastest hero has 17 AS.
What does Florina double that Kent doesn't? Nothing.
2. WTA FTW.
WTA FTW.
Even if he's weighed down he can DA, just like Florina, and does more damage. BECAUSE OF WTA DAMMIT, not his core stats or growths.
Florina loses AS with pretty much everything. It's hurting her a lot more than it's hurting him, but she can afford it. So can Kent. Kent doubles just as well as Florina does and has WTA. Since I've been sounding like a broken record, I'll conclude this: Kent doubles Kent has WTA, therefore more damage output and offensive power Kent evades, and when he can't he can live anyway Florina doubles Florina doesn't have complete WTA, therefore sucks offensively against lance users Florina evades, but gets hurt should she not The end. |
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~ Crysta, Zombie Queen
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| +Reaver | Jul 16 2007, 08:45 AM Post #8 |
Troll
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9:45 PM Nov 26
