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| Soren vs. NeoElfBoy; Soren opens. | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 9 2007, 10:14 PM (428 Views) | |
| +Reaver | Jul 9 2007, 10:14 PM Post #1 |
Troll
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Each debater has three posts. Use them wisely. (NeoElfBoy has Florina, Soren has Fiora) |
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| AdamNW | Jul 10 2007, 12:17 AM Post #2 |
Needs moar Sety
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I just need to post this: Can pegs get any hawter then that? 
Now. I'll go ahead and be reall basic with this post. I'll explain why Fiora is better on all accounts: Funds: Fiora isn't with your team quite as long as Florina is, therefore she will be going through less weapons. Then there is the fact that she is more durable then Florina means she won't be going through Vulneraries or even Elixirs as fast. Win for Fiora. Combat: In the join chapter, Fiora won't be doing quite as good as Florina (Assuming Florina is around lvl 11-14). However, as time goes, Fiora will be getting full offense from her supports (A florina B kent if you are using both pegs, but if Florina isn't being used Fiora will most likely be triangling with Kent and sain, with the possibility of a C eliwood), and will have a str and skl lead. For a few chapters, Florina might be winning, but for a majority of fiora's life on the team, she is better for your combat ranking. Tactics: Yesh yesh I know, they are both Pegs and will both have h4x mobility. But, due to Fiora triangling with 2 paladins, she will be able to move farther and still be in range of her supporters, whereas Florina will either be wasting her supports by doing her peg utilities, or waste her peg utilities by staying in support range. Fiora wins again. EXP: Now, Florina comes in chapter 16 at level one. Can we say EXP whore? Err, not really. She's a frail little girl, so she isn't killing anything, and is killed far easier. In the starting chapter alone there are 2 ballistae. Fiora on the other hand handles herself far better, and has more str and con, allowing for her to do more damage, which in turn allows for more kills, which gets her more exp. w1n. Survival: The rank itself shouldn't be anything less then 5 star, so I'll go by their defenses. When it comes to Avo, Florina will be winning for maybe a chapter or so. Then Fiora starts leveling and gets moar speed, evening it out. But, Fiora gets 5 avo from a B kent, so Fiora wins the Avo. Then we have Def/Res. Come on man, Florina doesn't beat Fiora's base def until lvl 15. 15 =| Fiora's growth is also higher, along with her major win in res. Neither are getting a whole bunch of defense from any of their pratical supports, so the win here is Fiora. I'll end here, your turn, high and mighty elf 
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| Dark Holy Elf | Jul 12 2007, 02:15 AM Post #3 |
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Heya. Okay, let's start with a few quick responses, before getting to the meat of the debate.
If you wanted, you could have Florina sit there, never attacking or getting attacked, every single turn until Fiora joined. She would consume no Funds doing so, and, assuming she was pre-levelled in Lyn's mode, would still be more than capable of matching Fiora when the latter showed up. So you can't really turn Florina's earlier joining time into a disadvantage. (The fact that you likely won't do this, and instead make use of Florina's combat ability, speaks to what she adds to the team before Fiora joins.) Funds-wise, you can give Florina a small bonus point for being around in LHM, and thus her performance there has an impact helping you earn that White Gem. This is worth very little, however.
No question. But Florina's the only one who can use her mobility to rescue, say, promoted Hector, useful for ferrying him to Gates or bosses for Tactics purposes in some late maps. Heath and Rath can do this too, but both join underlevelled; no other promoted mounted unit can; everyone else lacks the aid to carry manly ol' Hector. The value of this is slight since it only applies to two maps, most likely (VoD and Value of Life), but so was your point. The real value of Tactics contributions will come down to their combat abilities, of course.
If you find Level 1 too low to keep Florina alive, then try something higher, but still lower than 7. Say 5, as an example. You're not convincing me Florina has a harder time keeping alive at that level than Fiora does at 7 a few maps later. Noble Lady has two ballistae, true (which aren't OHKOing L5 Florina, btw). But how many Nomads does Dread Isle have? The great thing about Florina is you can set her level to whatever you want. Need a Level 10 powerhouse ready to tear things up the moment she joins, or someone weaker with good growths who will pad the Exp rank? She's your girl for both. Everyone else who doesn't have LHM is stuck at whatever level the game decides they are. Now, the rest ties up in general combat performance, so time to open with that. Let's assume we don't use Florina as Exp rank filler and that she joins at Level 9. This is easily achievable in LHM, especially if you're going for Glimpse in Time. One level a chapter minus one for her highish starting level and the fact that she has better things to do in Port of Badon than fight = 12 by the time Fiora joins. Stats HP: When they join, Florina leads by 2.6. At 20/20, Fiora leads by 3.6. On average over the course of the game, the two are nearly equal. As a small bonus to Florina, note that HP is most important to the two of 'em early on - that's when they can't rely on their avoid to bail them out as much as late. Str: Florina starts with a 2.4 point lead, and that's before supports. The gap closes as Fiora levels faster, but never quite all the way - Florina's slightly superior growth will take over, and she wins by a fraction of a point for pretty much the entire game. Skl: One of Fiora's biggest victories over her little sister, and it doesn't matter. Florina's Hit is already awesome (above average Skl + godly Luck + full offence supports = not missing). And if you care, that cap prevents the gap from ever even reaching 3 points. Spd: One of Florina's big stats (and Fiora's, for that matter). When Florina joins at Level 9, she's running around with 13.4 speed. Who else is even close (within 2 points)? Matthew, Guy, and Lyn, and none of them have weapon triangle over the fastest two enemy types. Even wielding an Iron Lance, she has a respectable 9.4. This isn't so great any more, but still faster than Sain or Lowen, for instance - she can double plenty of things even when she decides she wants more power. Slower units can't trade power for speed to match Florina, though. With a Javelin, 6.4 AS. Add in a couple levels and this is certainly not failing to double Pirate Ship Shamans, nor failing to 2HKO. And they don't like her Res much. The perfect butcher for those guys, if you're in a bind - the only better is Marcus. When Fiora joins, 15.1 to 13. Faster even when weighed down, so performing notably better on offence when combined with the Strength. As with the Strength, this gap will close, and they'll spend most of the game roughly tied, though. Neither's ever likely to lead by more than 0.5 past the early going. Def: Fiora leads here. 0.4 to 2.7 as the game goes on. Seems like a modest victory for Fiora, for now. Res: Fiora's biggest lead, and it's in Res. :rolleyes: Well, a few lategame maps make this not the meaningless victory it is in some other Fire Emblems, but it's still not great. Florina already owns mages and status staves with her considerably above average Res; Fiora's is usually just overkill. Luck (and Avoid): Along with Speed, Florina's other big stat. 6 point lead over Fiora at the start! 10.3 point lead at the finish! Now normally, Luck's a bit forgettable, but combine it with good speed and presto, dodging machine. With excellent Speed and Luck, Florina's nearly unmatched at natural avoid. At 20/15, for example (since I have these stats handy), only two non-thieves exceed her unsupported avoid: Lyn and Guy, and the only others who are even within eight points are Nino (hello, starting level) and Rebecca (hello, countering issues). Florina even has two weapons, unlike the swift swordsman types, with which to gain weapon triangle advantage. And if you couldn't tell by doing some math with the Speed and Luck gaps, then it's worth pointing out now that Florina's lead over Fiora in this stat hovers in low double-digits throughout the game. And it's the chief method of staying alive for both, once they have some levels in them. Yes, you read that right: Florina has a 10+ point stat lead in the primary method of durability for both. Supports When she's not off abusing her flight for esoteric Tactics purposes, Florina is geared around offence, and her supports reflect this. Light affinity grants full boosts to offence, and the defensive parameter it upgrades at least manages to not be Critical Avoid. LynxFlorina is the fastest support in the game. It's so fast that it hits A in one more turn (42) than it takes many to hit C. So when other units are lucky to have even a single point from supports, Florina has +3, if Lyn's in the picture. And with high overall stats, and the fact that she's forced into a small handful of maps anyway, Lyn's reasonably likely to be in play. Fiora is another excellent support, although this works for both characters equally, of course. Again, full offence, and very fast. Without question Fiora's best support, but it only gets listed second for Florina. Hector presents a more defensive option for Florina. Although she's only third in line for this support (behind Eliwood and Oswin), it provides full defence and half avoid, making Florina just that much harder to kill, should you opt for it. Ninian is another defensive support with a near-guaranteed character, and one for which the supporter will unquestionably have space. It's later, but extremely fast to compensate. The only downside is that it's temporary, but it still makes a big difference in some midgame maps. Most units would kill for this to be #4 on their support list. Lastly, out of practical supports, is Farina. The stat gains via Anima are bar none the best (full Def, full Power, half Avoid... please don't mind my drool), and it's reasonably speedy, but it's hampered firstly by Farina's joining time, and more significantly by Farina herself, or rather her price tag. That said, if you decide to pay the price, this support becomes a no-brainer for Farina, and a good one for Florina. Fiora also has a support with Farina, but it's both slower and grants lesser bonuses. There's also Serra (too slow) and Nino (too late), as outside shots. As for the direct comparison with Fiora? What Florina mainly has is power. Fiora can eventually match her, but her supports are much slower. Combine this with Florina's starting Strength/Speed lead, and the initial offensive advantage for Florina is staggering. Once Fiora's able to catch up support-wise, she can roughly match Florina in Power and/or Avoid, for bonuses. What she can't match her sister in is Def. She's getting two points at most - Florina is getting two at least. Any deviation (such as Sain for Fiora, or Hector/Ninian for Florina) will balloon this gap, up to 3-4 points in an extreme situation. This is notable because it's quite capable of offsetting the Def gap that appears between them, if not the Res. Summary Florina joins at a higher level, earlier in the game, and starts gaining supports more quickly - much more quickly with Lyn in the mix. She has a slight defensive lead (mostly in the form of avoid) and a large offensive lead early on. While Fiora can work to close these gaps, and even succeed at most of them, she never really manages to create an area where she clearly beats Florina (besides perhaps uh Res). Florina, on the other hand, will always enjoy a significant avoid lead, which grows ever more important as the game goes on. Utility-wise, Florina’s flight makes her one of the best, although in this role she can be largely matched by Fiora. There are a few things Florina can help you with that Fiora can’t, though: Chapters 16 through 18, and her flexible starting level are chief among them. All things considered, Fiora is an excellent unit, and the fact that she’s able to keep things close with Florina is impressive. Florina, however, is your #1 flier, Fiora, despite the admittedly far superior hawtness, is merely #1A. |
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| AdamNW | Jul 14 2007, 11:31 PM Post #4 |
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Needs moar Sety
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So, yeah. I'm fucked 
Nice way to make me read a whole paragraph of nothing-ness |= If she is fighting, she is wasting funds. So I assume you have no response to this? ...anyway, lets look at this: If she's just sitting there not doing shit, that makes her level lead worse. She is only lvl 9-11 if you go LHM and don't use her to Fiora. And, assuming the latter, here's the stat comparison (Flor is at top, Fi is at bottom):
If it wasn't for Florina's MAJOR luck lead, I would say that these girls are more or less even. I'll go battle stats now:
 Florina appears to be winning for now, but this lead fades quickly. Fast forward to chapter 21, where you get the 2nd EW. Florina gained a decent 5 levels, while Fiora, with her underleveled-ness and still being on part with Florina, gains 7 levels. Fiora also manages to get an A support with her sis and a C support with Kent. Flor gets A fi:
Fiora wins offensively, but Florina wins defensively, but both are minimal.  FF to endgame... woo. Fiora get her B kent 
WTF happened to Florina's AS lead?  1 mt > 2 hit and 5 crit, sure. But 3 Def, 6 res, and 2 HP >>> 4 avo, and neither are that good at taking hits... oh wait, Fiora is. Against magic users at least. Sadly, Florina loses her AS lead when both use the same weapons Keep in mind that the AS is the same from the moment they promote, not just endgame. So, for a fair chunk of the game - more then half of the time Fiora is there - Fiora is the better peg.
Not when she starts frail and under heavy WTD for 3 chapters
What? How is this a point for Florina? Hector is promoted for all of 5 chapters. Hardly that useful. Besides, it's not like he'll be that far away from the throne. You are using him, right?
Which Fiora beats Florina in anyway, by being able to take a hit better.
You're not convincing me Florina doesn't have a harder time keeping alive at that level. The odds of Florina having 4 defense (her base) at lvl 5 (your example) is 52%. Wtf. I thought she was supposed to be better with levels. Sure sure, she has decent str at level 5 (most likely to have 7 based on RPGDL stat slowing), but she's losing her peg utilities by having to make her way around the archers and ballistae. Can she stay and protect merlinus? No. The cavs will fuck her up. Chapter 17? Too many archers, and the cavs are making her a bad tent guard too. Chapter 17x? WTD
Not at the same time.
It would actually be 11. She gets 1 for Noble Lady of Caelin, 1 for whereabouts unknown, and 0 for port of badon.
She isn't getting supports other then fiora, where fiora is getting other supports 
Her common WTD will completely cancel out her support bonuses, and florina doesn't breach 100 hit at lvl 11 without a slim lance, and even then, it'll only be ~101 hit. Fiora has 105 with an iron lance, 110 with a slim when she joins.
I didn't know it was possible to have .4 speed...
But they DO have WTA over the most common weapon in the few coming chapters (Axes).
9 AS isn't doubling anything in Noble Lady of Caelin. I just checked my save state. Only 3 enemies (including bauker) had 5 AS or less. An archer, lord knows why you would be attacking him, and a Mage. Is she a good mage killer? Sorta, but Erk can do the job himself, it saves a turn of trading.
Hmm... can't say I disagree. But, quite a few enemies - mostly sword users, but there was a cav and peg or two in there - aren't getting doubled by her either.
But it IS failing to next to everything else. I don't have a savestate of 18, but 16 had lotz of 10-12 AS enemies.
the thing is, she loses major avo by using next to any weapon. 5 promoted con ftl.
Not that any of them are pratical. All of her supports are either not worth using themselves (Lyn Farina Nino), are INSANELY impractical (Hector Serra) or aren't even around for the whole game (Ninian). Fiora gets full offense from almost all of her supports, and ALL of her practical ones (Florina Kent Sain and maybe Eliwood)
lol. Lyn isn't being used after Four Fanged Offense, but that's even if you want to use Geitz. Lyn is not catching up to Florina a majority of the time, and isn't promoting. wtf.
3rd in line = not getting it. No questions. And hector's move of 5 and Florina's move of 8? D=
I'll give you this, but Florina still isn't benefiting that much due to the distance problems.
What? The so called "Staggering lead" Florina bears is 1 pt once Fiora gets her quick B with Kent. Florina's speed loss makes the speed difference null. The only thing Florina has going for her is her massive luck. But that's all it is: luck. She has poor - and I mean POOR - defensive stats, so her surviving with the more powerful weapons is unlikely.
o_O Fiora wins in raw defense alone, having a 2 point lead for a majority of the game. Florina shouldn't be getting the Hector support, so she only gets 1 point of defense to Fiora's 2. That's a 3 point lead throughout the game.
RES?! Fiora has a 5 point lead in resistance at 20/10, and no support makes that up for Florina, due to Fiora getting good def bonuses too. Fiora will only lose in Def if Florina gets +5 def from supports, which shouldn't and won't be happening.
sure sure, she gets a lyn support, but that support is wasted if you wish to S rank the game
Fiora's actual defense > Florina's evasion for a good bit of the game. And both have decent enough EVA to begin with, so neither are getting hit so often (40-55 with WTA maybe)
Try defense in general. Amazing resistance + higher con + mildly better def+ good speed = built.
The two's growths are almost identical, but the places where florina wins are offset by Fiora's support bonuses, whereas florina's bonuses don't offset fiora's wins
Chapter 16... Iffy here. Her starting position and the ballistae are questionable. Chapter 17, no. She will barely be used due to the high volume of bow users. Chapter 17x... no, too many axe users.
Florina isn't the #1 flier, but Fiora is the #1 hawtie ~~~~~~~~~~~ I see you missed my point about combat, survival, most of tactics, and most of EXP.
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| Dark Holy Elf | Jul 18 2007, 12:20 AM Post #5 |
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The response is that you can easily have her not waste funds if you want. The fact that you will most likely choose to "waste" funds anyway shows how minor this supposed advantage actually is. More to the point, perhaps: If Florina didn't use those weapons to kill those enemies, someone else would. I mean, yeah, Marcus is more cost-efficient, as are axemen to a lesser extent, but at this point we're splitting hairs over a few gold.
I am indeed using him. With his 5 move, though, there will be times when the bulk of my force could reach the throne, or indeed simply the front lines, ahead of him, so I'd want to do a little rescuing to help him get there.
Noble Lady: Florina will probably be rushing around saving villages while others kill the ballista-users (which again, don't OHKO her, though they do hamper) and then sweep in over the forests (where she outmoves the rest of your army by 5 panels, so yeah, she catches up) and help clean up. Whereabouts: You're overrating the effect of 2x might Iron/Short Bows (which almost all the Archers have) on Florina a bit. Still not exactly her preferred enemy, but on the other hand, Whereabouts is a map where you have to do a lot of moving, so she's certainly helpful in that regard. Definitely her worst map of the four, though. Badon: No, don't expect her to do much fighting here. I expect her to visit the villages each in turn, talk to Fargus on the sixth, all while the rest of my army butchers the pirates for shiny Exp. Pirate Ship: Okay, here's where she does loads of fighting. Pegasus Knights, Shamans, and Swordsmen are all opponents she does extremely well against. If her level was falling behind at all here she'll gain loads of Exp from barricading the Shamans alone.
Well yeah. But she is whichever of the two you consider better.
It's her average speed. I'm not rounding because rounding makes it look like 0.49 is noticeably worse than 0.51, which is silly. Also,
Yeah, axes are really common in Port of Badon and... oh wait, that's it, isn't it? They're not exactly non-existent in other maps but never disproportionately common. The big axe maps come before Florina joins (sections of Peddler Merlinus and Talons Alight in particular).
I don't recall any 10 AS Cavaliers that early, though I suppose it's possible. Pegasus Knights, checking a Pirate Ship file, have 9-10 speed, so they'd need to have both a favourable RNG and be using a Slim Lance. Swordsmen, yeah, common for them, though it's not 100% by any means, and Florina starts doubling them once she gains some levels. Mean AS of the Pirate Ship Mercs is just shy of 11, for instance.
Lots? I'd be interested to see numbers. Besides that, the enemies with 2 range never have that much AS, except Nomads which don't exist until the Dread Isle, so it's not an issue that will come up much in practice.
Correction: Lyn IS being used in Unfulfilled Heart, Sands of Time, and Light. Lyn MAY be used in any other chapter. There is certainly no "isn't". Heaven Seal is hardly fatal to use - it's no Fell Contract. Yeah, it's an extra 10k in Funds (though having a free 45-use Killing Edge variant does instantly mitigate just under a third of that cost), which makes her a relativly high-cost character, but she's also a high-stats character with fast supports. *shrug*
So Eliwood and Oswin have been used in every single FE7 playthrough since it was first released? News to me (news I find especially jarring since you mistakenly seem to think Heaven Seal use = instant fail at S rank). Even if they were, though, there exist parties for which Hector would support Florina over one of 'em. e.g. if the only Florina support used is Fiora, and Hector, Eliwood, Oswin, Priscilla, and Matthew (as more or less a permanent fixture) are used, then it makes more sense to support Oswin with Matthew and Priscilla (Guy can even finish off that quadrangle nicely) while Hector supports Eliwood and Florina - you get fuller supports and all Hector has to give up is some support speed early on (while Florina gains 5 Avoid, 2 Def, and 1 Atk). Also Fiora stands third in line for a Kent support behind Sain and Lyn (same affinity + slightly faster + four chapters earlier). Oops! Looks like you're relying an awful lot on Lyn not being used right now. Are you conceding that Florina wins if Lyn is in play? Even if you can effectively show Lyn as mediocre (which I doubt), that will still leave the debate extremely difficult for you to win.
Maybe I play FE7 the wrong way. But when I play, I don't let Hector's low move keep him from being at the front - y'know, the place where his #2-in-game Def and Seize-Throne abilities will come in handy. Either he sets the pace of the army, or I rescue him to keep him up there. In any case, Florina's not exactly in danger of waltzing far ahead of him. Far to the side to do flight-related utility, perhaps, but that affects every support the pegs have except with each other, so that's no advantage for Fiora.
Most of those are tied into statistical combat ability (whether offensive or defensive), which I beileve I did a more than adequate job of addressing. If you feel there are specific points I missed, please point them out. The rest of your stat analyses seem to rely on Fiora getting more supports than Florina, which is a biased assumption. "Yeah Lyn won't be used, and Hector won't have support slots free, and we'll just ignore Ninian... but Kent's a sure bet!" C'mon. That said, Fiora has some problems winning even under these extreme circumstances:
So Florina wins for the first 54 turns (more like 70+ in practice since the two won't be glued together at the hip), then? And then it's only 1 point? Okay.
101 hit? I count 12 Skl x 2 + 12 Luck / 2 + 85 = 115. I guess you mean unsupported against axes? But why then is Fiora's Hit listed as against neutral?  Anyway, 115 Hit = already very respectable the way the RNG handles hits, and it's only getting better as the game goes on.
This is true. It's also true that this is the point in the game where the Def lead hovers around 1 point, by your own figures. By the time it reaches the 3 point lead you hype, the Avoid matters more anyway. And if you're relying on a Kent support for five points of that, that just makes the gap bigger when the two can't be together, let alone for when the support picture isn't as you paint it.
Yeah, it's gone, but it also doesn't matter any more except for Avoid. Quibbling about endgame AS of fast characters is just silly, it matters for Valkyries and maybe the occasional Hero/SM if the Pegs are weighed down (and the enemy isn't). The AS differences between the two, regardless of weapon, can be fairly called "negligible" for the entire game except for one section: when Fiora joins at a significant level disadvantage, until she catches up some. That's enough, this post already feels too scattered. I didn't cover every single point so if there's something important I missed, point it out. |
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| AdamNW | Jul 18 2007, 01:43 PM Post #6 |
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Needs moar Sety
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Ah, and now we hit the final posts. Well now, Mister elf, I but you think you're all smart, rite? Well... yeah, you kinda are. I can't possibly make a good enough comeback to any of your counters without making me feel like I'm being a total ass. So, instead of timing out, I will make myself look like an even BIGGER dumbass by doing this, it explains why Fiora is truely better then Florina:  see here? Sain is proposing to Fiora. Not a smart move, I say. He already knows that I'm bangin fiora every 2nd Saturday. I wish I could get Florina, honestly, but...  Florina is a lesbian! She won't even let me touch her! How the hell am I supposed to tap that when she can't stop scissoring Lyn? Come on. Banging Fiora > Fapping to Florina and lyn, rite? Oh, Bisexual you say? Well, seeing as how Fiora's older, she got MUCH more tutoring from her prostitute sis, Farina, and had Sain for gods sakes. All florina has is lesbian experience, but I'm a guy. At 20/20 for Fiora, and 20/10 for Florina (seeing as how Fiora is more EXPerienced then Florina), here are their sex skills
Now, see here: HP = How much sex they can handle in one night Str = The impact Skl = Well... how good they are in general. Also, higher skill usually means better sex positions Spd = How fast Def = How hard someone can go without hurting her Res = How tight they are Luck = How easy they are Con = How much they can lift As you cans see, Fiora is much, MUCH better at sex. She can go all night, knows better Sex positions, goes crazy fast, she's as tight as a virgin, and she doesn't get hurt as easily. All florina has going for her is how easy she is to get, which isn't always a good thing. *coughSTD'scough* EDIT: If you couldn't notice, this is my Forfeit post |
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| Dark Holy Elf | Jul 23 2007, 09:22 PM Post #7 |
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I'm going to have to question Luck as representing easiness. Lucius' Luck is a complete garbage stat, but we both know he's giving it up to Raven three times a night. No. Look at who get the high Luck stats. They're usually the excitable characters in love with life (Serra, Guy, Florina, Rebecca, etc.), while the emo-consumed likes of Raven, Lucius, Karel, Harken, etc., all have poor Luck stats. Simply put, high-Luck characters are more fun, and what they lack in raw skill they make up with attitude and willingness to try anything. Sure, Fiora's pretty good, and has more raw skill, but with that Luck stat, she'll not be up for much and chances are you'll have to put up with several claims of headaches. I'll be surprised if you get any sleep with Florina, on the other hand. Provided you can steal her away from Lyn. --- In seriousness, thanks for giving this debate a shot. It was fun. |
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| +Reaver | Jul 23 2007, 10:14 PM Post #8 |
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Troll
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What an anti-climactic debate. Oh well. Voting time. |
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4:27 AM Nov 25
