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| Jeigan vs. Odin; Jeigan opens. | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 9 2007, 10:15 PM (194 Views) | |
| +Reaver | Jul 9 2007, 10:15 PM Post #1 |
Troll
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Each debater makes three posts, use them to the fullest. (Jeigan is using Sain, Odin is using Lucius) |
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| Big Boss | Jul 10 2007, 03:20 PM Post #2 |
 
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First of all, Sain is a pimp and has a cool headband. Lucius looks like Colette from ToS and has an implied gay pairing with Raven.Having Sain in the team is cooler than having Lucius. Now, a comparison at the moment Lucius joins. From Lyn's mode, Sain should have gotten to around level 10, and between Noble lady of Caelin and the chapter where Lucius joins, Sain should be level 13. From Lyn's mode, Lucius should have gotten to level 7 or something. Refer to stats here... http://www.rpgdl.com/FE.php?character=Lucius http://www.rpgdl.com/FE.php?character=Sain Sain's wins: 8.4 HP, 5.8 Str, .2 Skl, 7 Def, 5.4 Lck, 3 Con, 2 Mov, 11 Aid. Lucius's wins: .8 Spd, 6 Res. We can see Sain is totally crushing Lucius. Lucius doesn't even have a single point lead in Spd, so Sain is doing better offensively due to his big Str lead. Lucius is also very frail. His low luck makes his avoid mediocre, and he has toilet paper defense. His HP is also bad. Lucius has a significant win in Res, but Sain is even able to OHKO magic users before even getting attacked, due to his rly high Atk; and in the event he actually gets attacked by the mage, he has plenty HP to survive. On top of that, Sain has more base avoid and has two weapons for easy weapon triangle control, helping both his offense and defense. Sain has also more utility due to his higher movement and rescue abilities. Sain is totally raping Lucius, and even at the endgame, Sain is better. Let's see how they do at Victory or Death. Both 20/15. Lucius has A Raven, Sain has A Kent, B Fiora .....Sain/Lucius HP:47.4/38.1 Atk:29.9/25.8 Hit:57.7/63.9 Avo:62.7/59 Crt:25.2/18.2 CEv.40.5/15.2 AS:20.1/21.9 Def:15.6/10.1 Res:8.6/29.5 Con:11/7 Mov:8/6 Offensively, Sain is way better. Atk + Crt >> Hit + a bit of AS. But since Sain will use 3 weapons, due to WTA he'll actually have more hit than Lucius most of the time. Defensively, Sain has massive wins in HP, Def, Avo (which gets better with WTA) and CEV. Lucius only has overkill Res. Utility wise, Sain has the advantages of being mounted. (Move and rescue). It's obvious who the winrar is. And to finish this post, let's see a bit about funds... Lighting--630 G Shine--900 G Iron sword--460 G Steel sword--600 G Iron lance--360 G Steel lance--480 G Iron axe--270 G Steel axe--360 G Lucius uses some expensive weapons. And then it gets worse for him if we compare the Divine tome with Silver/Killer weapons  Sain is not only a better unit, he is also less expensive. Sain is waaay better than Lucius. |
 ^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan | |
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| Barst | Jul 12 2007, 11:37 AM Post #3 |
Like I said before... I am perfect.
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So it's cool for Sain to continually fail at his attempts to get a girl? Nah.
Lucius has 12 Spd, Sain has 11. Sounds like a single point lead to me. Also, enemies have a lead of Def to Res by about 5 at this point. Lucius will be doing just as much damage, and he won't need to take hits because of being able to attack from the backlines. Sain can too, but his long-range weapon is worse in almost every aspect.
He can't attack from a distance unless he equips a bad weapon, and even then he'll be attacked before he can kill the Mage attacking him. His defense against Mages only applies on the player phase, which isn't when most of the fighting happens. As for your point about Sain's HP keeping him alive anyways, HP goes away fast for a frontliner. You won't always be able to heal him, either, so it's likely that even if he didn't take much damage from other enemies he'd die in about two hits from magic. Meanwhile, Lucius is barely taking damage.
3 Avo? O teh noes. Triangle control helps, but more enemies will have lances than any other weapon type so he'll be stuck with WTN at this point.
Not really. Sain isn't winning by nearly as much as you make it sound like he is, and there's more to the game than joining time and endgame. Let's look at their stats around Ch.20... Lucius ((LV12, Lightning, C Raven)) HP: 23 Atk: 16 Hit: 124 (24) Crit: 12 (6) AS: 14 (2) Avo: 32 Def: 3 Res: 12 (9) Cev: 6 Sain ((LV15, Iron Lance, C Kent)) HP: 30 (7) Atk: 24 (8) Hit: 100 Crit: 6 AS: 12 Avo: 35 (3) Def: 9 (6) Res: 3 Cev: 14 (8) Sain can still take physical hits better, but a single magic attack would take out his HP advantage. Again, his win in Atk is practically halved by the enemies' Def/Res gap, and while any enemies can give Sain a good chance to miss, enemies Lucius doesn't have a 100% chance to hit won't appear often. Sain's win in Avo is still a mere 3, and his win in Cev is worthless as enemies won't have a chance to Crit Lucius anyways. Since Lucius isn't getting attacked much unless you let him, Sain's durability lead means little, and it's a large amount of Hit and Res, as well as some Crit, vs. a few points of attack. Lucius wins at this point. Ch.25, when Lucius will have a B with Raven and a C with Prissy, while Sain will have a B with Kent... Since those weren't the supports you based your comparisons on, I'll explain them: First, Lucius supporting Prissy: Prissy is already getting a B support with Raven. Lucius has the competition of Erk and Guy for her other support slots-Except Erk isn't being used, Lucius is instead, so the only competition is between Guy and Lucius. Since she can have 3 more supports, and each of them can only get a B, she'll get a C with one and a B with the other. Getting a B with Lucius gives her 1 more Def and 3 less Avo than if the B was with Guy, so it's an obvious choice. Second, Sain NOT supporting Fiora: Sain's affinity sucks. Considering how Fiora has the same affinity, she'll get NO Def and Avo from supporting him, which is exactly what she needs. However, if you get Geitz, he has great stats, and a good affinity, but no supports. Fiora and Geitz both want that support, and since Sain has no other option for a B, his only support is with Kent. Now, the stats: Lucius ((LV2*, Shine, B Raven, C Prissy)) HP: 31 Atk: 28 Hit: 140 (31) Crit: 26 (15) AS: 16 (1) Avo: 42 Def: 8 Res: 21 (15) Cev: 13 Sain ((LV3*, Steel Sword, B Kent)) HP: 38 (7) Atk: 31 (3) Hit: 109 Crit: 11 AS: 15 Avo: 46 (4) Def: 13 (5) Res: 6 Cev: 21 (8) Again, Sain has several leads, but most of them are minor or meaningless. Lucius never misses, magic bounces off of him, and he gets a powerful critical 1/4 of the time. Easy win for Lucius. In addition, while Sain is using his horse, Lucius is using his staffs. Instant C-rank in staffs >>> Horse. Now, the REAL endgame stats. Lucius ((LV12*, Shine, A Raven, B Prissy)) HP: 36 Atk: 33 Hit: 161 (40) Crit: 35 (21) AS: 20 (1) Avo: 55 Def: 11 Res: 29 (21) Cev: 20 Sain ((LV12*, Steel Sword, A Kent)) HP: 45 (9) Atk: 36 (3) Hit: 121 Crit: 14 AS: 19 Avo: 60 (5) Def: 15 (4) Res: 8 Cev: 30 (10) Easy win for Lucius, showing that Sain is only better when they had just joined. |
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| Big Boss | Jul 14 2007, 09:55 PM Post #4 |
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Sain can get Fiora, Priscilla, Serra, Isadora and Rebecca. That's not fail at all.
That's if you round up the decimals. I'm fine with whatever floats your boat. Also, I would like to say that my comparison in the first post was using raw stats. If we add Iron lance to Sain (7 Mt) and Lightning to Colette (4 Mt), Sain has an Atk lead of 8.8. Will the Def-Res gap make Colette superior? My samples from chapter 17 say Sain is better. Myrmidon...3 Def, 2 Res Mercenary..5 Def, 2 Res Archers.....4/5 Def, 1/2 Res Shaman...3 Def, 7 Res Nomad.....5 Def, 1 Res Cavalier....8 Def, 2 Res Fighter.....4 Def, 1 Res Mage.......5 Def, 8 Res Knight......12 Def, 1 Res Colette wins against the Knights. Sain clearly wins against everything else.
Your point? Sain is more durable either way, and the fact that he has more opportunity than Colette to get WTA doesn't help your case
Something that bothers me... Colette getting 5 levels and Sain getting 2 is ridiculous. Even if Sain was getting a bit less experience due to his higher level, he can easily be level 17 at this point. So, your comparison should be more like... Sain Lv. 17. Iron Lance. C Kent. HP 31.8 ATK 25.5 HIT 106 AVO 36.4 CRT 6.8 CEV 14.6 DEF 9.2 RES 3.2 AS 12.4 Colette. Lv 12. Lighting. C Raven. HP 22.9 ATK 16.4 HIT 122.9 AVO 33 CRT 12.25 CEV 5.8 DEF 2.9 RES 12.4 AS 13.6 Durability against physical hits is more important against durabilitty against mages, because of how often they appear. And especially, since you said that most of the combat takes place during the enemy phase, that means you have to have Colette stay back, so he doesn't die. Maanwhile, Sain is in the frontline, helping a lot. The Def-Res gap hasn't changed much since the examples posted before, and Sain's Atk advantage over Colette is a bit bigger. Sain is dealing more damage, easily. While Colette has better hit, Sain has WTA more often, and with the 2 RNs system, he is almost never missing, so Colette's win is nearly worthless. Then Crt, Colette wins, but that extra critical isn't good enough to beat Sain's solid Atk lead. Sain is still better overall.
kk, Pris has B Raven. I must say I don't follow your logic of Erk not being used. He is a better unit than Colette, he is a better support option for Priscilla and there is enough space in the team for both Erk and Colette. As for the support itself, Erk-Pris is faster and it offers better bonuses (Erk offers Avo and Def). Colette gives full atack, and Priscilla isn't using that for a long time. Also, Colette doesn't give avoid, and seeing how Priscilla's defenses are based on avoid, that's bad.
Geitz? Are you kidding? The Sain support starts earlier and is waaay faster (81 turns for a C? phail). Not to mention Sain and Fiora have the same movement. Sticking Fiora and Geitz together means Fiora isn't using her movement at fullest. Also, Sain, Fiora and Kent for a nice support triangle, with high mobility and weapon triangle control, with 2 frontline monsters and an excellent mage killer. GTFO GEitz. I'll fix your comparison again. Also, note that I think the levels could be highers, but I'll just play along with you. Also, hope you don't mind if I give a steel lance to Sain. Colette.Lv 20/2. Shine. B Raven. HP 30.9 ATK 26.7 HIT 134.8 AVO 43 CRT 21 CEV 10.6 DEF 7.8 RES 19.8 AS 16.2 Sain. Lv 20/3. Steel lance. B Kent, C Fiora. HP 37.8 ATK 34 HIT 110.25 AVO 43.1 CRT 16.15 CEV 26.3 DEF 13.2 RES 6.2 AS 13.4 Pretty much the same as before. Sain's huge Atk lead>>>The Def-Res gap. Sain has better durability, overall. While their avoid is the same, Sain now has full weapon triangle control, so he is getting WTA most of the time. In case Sain needs more AS or hit, he can switch to an iron weapon and still have a solid attack lead. Then staves, Colette has them, but you already have Priscilla, Pent and Erk healing. A superb combat unit is more valuable here.
Already proved why the supports I suggested stand, so therefore my comparison in the first post stands. Not to mention, 20/12 is kinda low for endgame level. Let's see how they do at Victory or Death. Both 20/15. Lucius has A Raven, Sain has A Kent, B Fiora .....Sain/Lucius HP:47.4/38.1 Atk:29.9/25.8 Hit:57.7/63.9 Avo:62.7/59 Crt:25.2/18.2 CEv.40.5/15.2 AS:20.1/21.9 Def:15.6/10.1 Res:8.6/29.5 Con:11/7 Mov:8/6 Offensively, Sain is way better. Atk + Crt >> Hit + a bit of AS. But since Sain will use 3 weapons, due to WTA he'll actually have more hit than Lucius most of the time. Defensively, Sain has massive wins in HP, Def, Avo (which gets better with WTA) and CEV. Lucius only has overkill Res. Utility wise, Sain has the advantages of being mounted. (Move and rescue). It's obvious who the winrar is. |
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^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan | |
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| Barst | Jul 17 2007, 09:00 AM Post #5 |
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Like I said before... I am perfect.
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Lucius may not be doing as much damage to most enemies, but the gap makes the difference in damage output quite small, only 3 against some enemies. It may not be all of them, but the point is, the difference in Atk is often too minor for Sain to be "Totally raping Lucius."
He has more of an opportunity in Ch.17x. In Ch.17, he'll barely fight any sword or axe users, almost all enemies have bows or lances. In Ch.18, while Sain is fighting the Myrms and Mercs ((Some of whom have Lanereavers, which he can't get WTA on)), Lucius is fighting the Shamans and getting just as much WTA as Sain. In Ch.19, unless you have Sain hang back and defend Merlinus, he'll barely get any WTA.
Lucius is underleveled, therefore giving him Exp helps the Exp Rank. Sain is overleveled, therefore giving him Exp hurts the Exp rank. You'll want to give Lucius Exp, but you won't want to give much to Sain. Therefore, Lucius gains more levels. That simple.
If you add Lucius to the team, but don't drop any other mages, you'll have 4 magic users, which is redundant. Prissy and Pent will obviously be used, because of how good they are, but Lucius and Erk fill practically the same role. Since you're obviously using Lucius, that doesn't leave much left for Erk to do, therefore using him is pointless and he doesn't get used.
It may not be a good option, but the point is, Geitz wants Fiora. Even if that support doesn't get made, there are other supports Fiora wants over Sain. For example, Eliwood's great Anima affinity. The support is just as fast as Fiora x Sain, but with way better bonuses. Eliwood's five supports are generally considered to be full, but it's not like Lowen and Hector are forced to support him. They have other great supports, and if they choose those supports over Eliwood, he'll want to support Fiora. There are other options, as well. Since Erk isn't getting used, Pent doesn't have a support, and he could support Fiora as well. The support doesn't start for a while, but when it does, Fiora can get sweet bonuses from a B support with him. And what if you're using Florina? Her affinity isn't great, but it at least gives Fiora some Def. She'll probably support Ninian, and either Fiora or Hector. Either one gets in the way of Sain supporting Fiora. Point is, Fiora has many better supports than a shitty one that gives no Def or Avo. It's unlikely that none of these options will exist, so she most likely isn't supporting Sain. Since the rest of your post uses stats that I just disproved, I'll ignore it. |
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| Big Boss | Jul 17 2007, 06:20 PM Post #6 |
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Sain. Lv 13. Iron Lance. 22.2 Atk (23.2 with WTA) Iron sword. 21.2 Atk (used against the fighter, therefore WTA) Colette. Lv 7. Lighting. 13.4 Atk. (14.4 Against da shaman) Let's see how much damage they deal to the enemies I posted... Myrmidon...Sain=20.2, Colette=11.4 Mercenary...Sain=18.2, Colette=11.4 Archers.....Sain=18.2/17.2, Colette=13.4/12.4 Shaman...Sain=19.2, Colette=7.4 Nomad.....Sain=17.2, Colette=12.4 Cavalier....Sain=14.2, Colette=11.4 Fighter.....Sain=17.2, Colette=12.4 Mage.......Sain=17.2, Colette=5.4 Knight......Sain=10.2, Colette=12.4 You speak about a difference of 3, but that only applies against the cavalier. Then we have the armor; Sain deals 2 less damage than Colette. If 3 was "quite small" of a difference, then Sain's loss against the knight is almost irrelevant. Then Sain is clearly better against everything else, especially the mage and shaman. Sain rapes Colette.
He can't get WTA against the Lancereaver users, but he can switch to a sword in order to not get WTD, and once that enemy is dead, he can rape the rest of the myrms/mercs with ease. Colette may get WTA against the Shamans, but as mentioned in my comparison above, he is dealing pitiful damage. Sain can both get WTA and deal massive damage.
Sain is not overleveled, at least compared to the rest of your team: your Lords' levels should be high so you can recruit Geitz later, people like Erk, Kent, Matthew and Florina have their Lyn mode level advantage, early joining ppl like Lowen, Guy and Osw1n have high levels at this point as well. Therefore, Sain continues to be used as much as Colette, or even more, because you have to keep Colette away from the enemy so he doesn't die. Colette gains like 1 more level because he was underlevelled.
*sigh* let's see what are our possibilities... A ) You deploy both Erk and Colette. Colette doesn't get Priscilla's support. B ) You replace Erk with Colette, hurting the team because a better unit was replaced with a worse one. COlette still doesn't get B Prissy. Why? Well, let's take a look at other of her options. Guy and Osw1n: Are 3 turns slower than Colette's support but starts earlier. Gives avoid to Priscilla, which is what she wants. Heath: similar movement to Priscilla. Gives same Def bonus as Colette, but also gives needed Avo. So yeah, even if Erk isn't deployed, Priscilla has better support options over Colette. As mentioned before, Wind-Light is mainly an offensive support (full Atk, Hit and Crt) which Priscilla isn't using for a long time. She wants the avoid, as her defenses are heavily based around it. The single point in Def/Res that Colette provides won't help Pris at taking more hits.
Geitz would want Fiora if it wasn't such an inconvenient support, for the reasons provided in my 2nd post. Eliwood? He has A Hector for sure, and doesn't want Fiora's crappy wind affinity. He can take Ninian, who offers better bonuses and is a h4x unit with no better options, or Harken and Lowen for the smexy Anima-Fire bonuses. And if for some reason you want Eliwood to get support from a Wind affinity, he takes Lyn over Fiora, because it is faster and it is easier to stick Lyn and Eliwood, due to their same Mov.
Pent's bonuses aren't that sexy. Only half Avo and Def is not helping a lot. Fiora is getting that from Kent. and then she gets good offensive bonuses from Sain. Also, the support with the Cavaliers starts earlier. Sain-Fiora-Kent is far more convenient than Fiora-Pent.
Well, by your logic, if we use Fiora, Florina isn't used, so Fiora wouldn't support a unit who is not in play Also, a single point of Def doesn't make a difference. At any rate, let's see our endgame stats comparison when Fiora is not in play. Both are level 20/15. Colette has A Raven, Sain has A Kent. .....Sain/Lucius HP:47.4/38.1 Atk:27.9/25.8 Hit:47.7/63.9 Avo:62.7/59 Crt:15.2/18.2 CEv.30.5/15.2 AS:20.1/21.9 Def:15.6/10.1 Res:8.6/29.5 Con:11/7 Mov:8/6 Pretty much nothing changes. Sain has only 2 more Atk, but if we factor weapons, that gets larger, because he can now use axes, and overall, all physical weapons Sain is using have more Mt than Colette's tomes. Colette has a significant Hit lead, but Sain has full weapon triangle control, so he doesn't have to worry about missing. Durability: Sain has massive wins in HP, Def, Avo (which gets better with WTA) and CEV. Lucius only has overkill Res. Utility wise, Sain has the advantages of being mounted. To sum this up, Sain is better because... -He doesn't look like a girl with a flat chest -He is a pimp and has a more interesting personality -He is better than Colette against almost everything when both join, and will still be better at mid and lategame, as he wins in more important areas (Colette only has overkill Hit and Res, ftl) -He has the advantages of a mounted unit. -He uses cheaper weapons, helping more your funds rank. |
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^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan | |
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7:25 AM Nov 28
