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| Dragon Hellfire vs Legault | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 9 2007, 10:15 PM (248 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Jul 9 2007, 10:15 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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ya rly |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Dragon Hellfire | Jul 11 2007, 08:43 AM Post #2 |
Dragon Hellfire; three random words
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Heath Vs. Lowen http://heath.akaneia.nu/affiliates.php Heath has his own fansite, as does many other FE characters. However, looking at that list do you notice a certain character that is missing? Indeed, Lowen has no fan site, because Lowen just isn't cool enough. He has a washed out yellowish orange colour as his armour, disgusting green hair that impairs his Skl stat, and a generic horse. No wonder that there is no fan site for him, he's lame or generic at best. Heath on the other hand is a gar. For your information, that means that he is so manly that he turns strait men gay. There's well supported proof behind that, for one he rides a Wyvern with his long Green AND Silver hair flowing behind him (come on, only a few people are so important they get twice the hair colours), and he is a fugitive. Badass/Gar > Lame/Generic Point for Heath. Now lets look at supports... Heath Vaida: Oh, and part of being such a gar that Heath is, he can also turn lesbian's strait. Yeah, so that's right, after they get their A support Vaida grows her hair out, starts using make-up, and becomes quite an attractive woman. Oh, and they fuck, they fuck and their wyvern's fuck, giving twice the fucking. You can't tell me that you would take this support away, because that would be breaking down not only one, but two relationships. Could you do that? Legault: Heath can bag this man, because he turns him gay as mentioned a bit above, however he doesn't. Instead he continues to be a badass and rejects Legault, while he attempts to say that he was 'joking'. Louise: Read their B support, Pent got jealous of Heath. So much that he had to call Louise over to prevent them from reaching an A and fucking each other. Because you know that Louise would totally fuck Heath if she could, too bad for her. Not a problem for Heath though, he just goes and has some hot sex with a random villager. Priscilla: "Heath... If only... If only... ...time...could stop.", She wants Heath so badly that she wishes for a miracle to happen for them to be together. Or maybe it's just that she can't handle the manliness that is overwhelming her and needs to take a break from it. Either one, Heath is definitely holding his badass status. Kent: Heath isn't all about sex n' shit. He actually makes a good friend, and Kent allows him to join Caelin. However, it's not as if Kent has the balls here, look at their B support and you'll notice that Heath is totally dominating him in postcount, not letting Kent say a damn thing. You'd think Kent wouldn't like this, but this is Heath we're talking about, Kent can't get enough. Lowen Eliwood: He is definitely the bitch in this pairing. Every single one of their supports is Lowen rambling on about how eating is important, which only leaves me to believe that his Def stat comes from his fat belly. Lowen's a fatty fat fatty who's only Skl stat lies in his bitch work. Marcus: Marcus just insults Lowen's incompetence in these supports. Lowen is a failure at trusting, which we can very easily assume by his Str stat, and even at taking blows from Marcus. Now apparently Lowen only begins to get fat enough later on, probably from eating out of depression. Isadora: Again, he's the one cooking and preparing the "picnics" in this relationship. Isadora looks like she can cook, so why not let her and save your manhood, Lowen? Ah, it's probably his confidence issues, which are well justified by the quote "I'm not even close to the level of you and the others... " in their B support. Harken: This is an average support. You have a drastic win; Harken, and a drastic fail; Lowen. Lowen does his normal food -> I fail -> suckup routine. In the end Harken says "Hmm...Maybe he's got farther to go than I thought. Aaa...". Yet another person that Lowen fails to impress, what a shame. Rebecca: Seriously, Lowen needs more confidence. No wonder his Str and Skl lack; it's because he's to scared to look at the enemy while fighting. Hence, the hair. Anyways, Lowen is quite unpleasant to Rebecca in their C support, and not in a badass way. The rest of it follows suit in Lowen not being badass, and Rebecca being boring. *yawn* What we can tell is that Lowen is quite inferior to Heath when it comes to personality. Now I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure that when choosing a team you would want the characters that you like on it. As Heath is undeniably more likable than Lowen, I'm pretty sure the chances of Heath being on your team is greater than his. Now the very first thing that you are going to want to attack Heath about is his joining situation. However, there happen to be two characters in this comparison, and only attacking Heath's joining situation while ignoring Lowen's completely would show us close to nothing, wouldn't you say? Sure Heath is worse relative to the enemies than when Lowen first joins, but when Lowen first joins he is definitely not being good. The only units that are good, are Marcus, Oswin, Guy, and perhaps Matthew and Hector. This points out that not many units on your team are, in fact, good, and Lowen not being good puts him in that much worse of a situation. What am I getting at? Well when Heath joins your entire team is shaped to the most optimal levels letting Heath join in a much better situation. He is the only unit on your team that could be considered not good. Lowen being a unit on your team that's not good while there are a lot of other units that are not good means that he doesn't have as much support and help trying to level. Which brings me to the fact that Heath is underleveled. Now we've established that him being underleveled does not make him worse than Lowen in joining situation, so it can only mean that he's gaining experience faster. Much faster. When there is a unit in the range of both Heath and another unit (perhaps it's weakened?), and both Heath and the other unit can kill, then Heath gets the kill. Heath gains way more experience than the other unit which is better for your experience rank. Heath also has 7 Mov and negates terrain slowing. Lowen may have equal Mov, but he has a much harder time going through terrain. And finally Lowen is a higher level than Eliwood and Rebecca. Meaning that if either of them are in the position they can strike down an enemy where Lowen cannot, then Lowen is missing out on a kill. Perhaps not Rebecca so much, as she isn't a unit that you'd normally use, but definitely Eliwood. Heath, on the other hand, is quite possibly the lowest level unit on your team by quite a decent margin. Heath >>> Lowen in joining situation You probably want to compare Heath to Lowen at Heath's starting chapter, but I don't see the relevance of it outside that single chapter. Comparing Mid-Lowen performance to Early-Heath performance doesn't seem right. Heath is most likely going to have a harder time because the enemies he faces in his mid-performance are harder than the enemies that Lowen faces in his mid-performance, but if he's beating Lowen either way, then it doesn't matter. This is justified by the Lowen joining, and Heath joining situations. So what we can do is now compare the endgame when both of them have finally finished their instance. This is the only time where both Lowen and Heath are at the same point in their instance, and is very easily measured. So comparing this would not waste as much time as comparing others. I'll put Heath at level 16 and Lowen at level 18. As you may object to this, I will have to note that Oswin does in fact get the first promotion item due to his level lead and the fact he needs that 1 more Mov. The next one would go to Kent/Sain as they do have a slight level and the one after that to the other of the pair so they would have the same Mov. However, lets assume that Lowen is taking Oswin away from you, which yes, is a detriment, and gets the third promotion item. Lowen will promote on chapter 24 via the Earth Seal, which is 20k, not 10k. At this time Heath will be about level 15 and the gap is closing fast. Why is he that high? Well in chapter 23 you need to gain a lot of experience, and seeing as Heath is the perfect unit for the job (one weapon type; can carry torch, flies over sand, low level) he will be gaining the most experience in that chapter easily, netting you chapter 23x. A two level lead for Lowen is quite fair, especially when considering that Heath is a flier and can move over obstacles killing most anything he needs, whereas Lowen is closer to the group sharing kills. Refer to HM bonuses here. In raw statistics: HP: 1.9 Heath Str: 8.4 Heath(!!!) Skl: 8.5 Heath(!!!) Spd: 4.1 Heath Def: 2.9 Lowen Res: 2.1 Lowen Lck: 7.9 Lowen(!!!) Raw defenses Lowen is winning, but Lowen is a tank. If Heath is only loosing by 3 Def, 2 Res, and winning by 2 HP, then I don't see a problem with Heath's defenses. Something worth noting is that Heath has a much easier time getting to other units making sure they survive, letting him help the team with his defenses more. Heath isn't dying like ever, so I'm pretty sure that Heath is winning defensively, if even by a small amount. Raw offensively Heath wtfraeps Lowen. And because of the reasons mentioned above turned into "Heath can choose which enemy to take down with more ease allowing the worst threat to be taken out makes him that much better" it's sure set. And Heath never has problems killing with h4x Str, h4x Skl, and good AS. Heath turns out far better than Lowen, is easier to train, and doesn't deprive you of Oswin. Well, I would have to say, that Heath is indeed > Lowen. |
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.:FES:. Formerly: Juggernaut, FireBane 100% of BwdYetis don't care about your percentages. | |
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| Wooper | Jul 11 2007, 01:53 PM Post #3 |
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Fansite. Woohoo. Lowen looks by far much cooler than Heath, has original armor color (who else has yellow in FE7? :o), and he cooks. Generic? Not as much as Heath.
 Heath is wanted, yet he's a pansy (a villain who won't kill women or children? Wha...?), and he's a generic villain-turned-goodguy. Meeeeh. :/ Good job avoiding stats in your supports.  HEATH Vaida: She comes late in the game, with barely enough time to be worth getting her...hell, the only reason I got her was so Hector wouldn't waste exp, since he should be 20 by then (or else...well, you got problems  ). She can be kinda useful, but it probably isn't worth supporting with her this late in the game, when you already have enough better units to use. Legault: Legault is good, and would make a good support...but no. Heath is meant for the frontlines, while Legault is meant to slip around or behind to get chests. Supporting with him would be a waste of Heath, or suicide for Legault Louise: Once again, she shouldn't be in the front lines. Besides, the only real utility she has is ballistas and making Pent even more pwnsome. Not to mention you can't get an A support with her, and she has better choices for a support (Erk, Hawkeye, etc.). :/ Priscilla: Pretty lacking in good supports, but Heath probably one of the worse ones. She's stuck behind the frontlines, and has a much better support partner in Erk and Lucius, and even Raven. Heath is a no. :/ Kent: Probably his best support option, but not for Kent. Following your strange logic (which I'll get to later ), Sain would be a better choice, along with Lyn and Fiora, as they're all quicker supports and all do-able by the time Heath joins. Now to LOWEN Eliwood: Possibly one of the best support options for anyone. They're both horse-bound at second tier (which is much better than Hector, who drags behind), they both get boosts in some of the areas they're lacking, and they're both front-line units. Not to mention you get them on the same level, and the support doesn't take a whole lot of time. You could plausibly get an A support with them before you even get Heath. Not only is it one of Lowen's best supports, but it's one of Eliwood's as well. Can't say that for Heath, huh. :/ Marcus: Possibly one of the be- Hey, wait a sec...the advantages for MarcusxLowen are the same as EliwoodxLowen...'cept that for Marcus it's better. Lowen is his fastest support, and coupled with coming so early, makes them a perfect support pair. Now, get a support triangle, and you have an unstoppable triad: High Mov, great boosts, High-tier units, everything you need. Heath...well, can't say much for him. Isadora: Isadora is by no means his best support, but in the case that you for some reason forsake both Eliwood and Marcus (which is doubtful ), Isadora is a good choice. It's one of her fastest supports, and helps everything but her def in a big way. Once again, she is a front-line unit with a horse, making it even more easy for a support. Harken: Harken comes late, but Lowen is one of his best supports, even though it isn't the other way around. Lowen has much more mov, especially at this point in the game, but Harken is still a front-line unit, so it's still a worthy support (if you hate Eliwood and Marcus, that is o_O). Rebecca: Eh. It's his longest support, and she's a sniper. He's be in the front lines, she won't. He could do better. The only advantage is that they both come early and on the same chapter. Hmm...Lowen has five support options, four that work out great and one that at least has a few perks. Heath has two barely plausible ones, that are ruined by late join time and Sain respectively. Personality is nice, but it doesn't matter if the unit is better. Why else would anyone ever actually use Eliwuss? The second thing I'm gonna attack is join time. You made a few valid points there, but not enough. Yes, the only really good units are Oswin, Marcus, Guy, and Hector (you can't call Matthew good at this point ). However, Lowen is by no means bad at all in this position. He has a sword AND a lance at the beginning, giving him range and variety to fight, and giving him the ability to kill both the multitude of bandits on his first chapter and the swordsmen on the second. He's also better than the axemen (who get killed by anything and can't hit for crap) and Rebecca (who...well, she's a fragile archer. 'nuff said). Logically, you'd use Lowen since, not only does he turn out better than most units, but you'd also be supporting him with Marcus and Eliwood if you have half a brain. By the time you hit 13x, he can fend for himself perfectly fine, and could plausibly have supports already.Now lets take a look at Heath. His joining level is home to ballistas and archers. Not the best starting ground for a wyvern rider, huh. You could take the ballistas, but that would not only stretch your army pretty thin, which is a bad thing for that level (I learned that the hard way ), but getting within range of the ballistas would also get you dangerously close to Eubans's range, which would either mean death for one of your units, or premature death for the level. Not a good thing. His second chapter, he gets a slight advantage, as he gets good mov while no one else but magic users do. That's nice...'cept the level is full of archers and magic users, his two weaknesses, making this level a bad choice for him, especially since he's underleveled. The third level he's in is better, but still not amazing for him, cause of the snipers and the enclosed spaces. He won't get a whole lot of experience that way. The next level, both versions, have a ballista, and one has long-range magic. Not good for Heath. The next one has ballistas too...suddenly, his joining situation doesn't look that hot. In fact, it looks horrible. You're risking Heath for a while, while Lowen has little trouble surviving the early levels.
...what? What are you on? o_O I agree that Oswin gets the first promo item, but why would you be using 4 Paladins? This all seems a bit over the top, especially cause Kent and Sain won't have much of a level boost unless you specifically give them extra exp in Lyn mode. Lowen should have no problem at all hitting 20 by the time you get your second Crest, and is a better choice than both Kent and Sain to use (thus, no loss of the 20K). Lowen should be 20/20 by this time (I managed it, and I suck. ), and Heath should be lower due to the lacking early chapters for him. This is assuming Heath is at lv. 14 and Lowen is at 20. HP - 58.2 Pow - 19.1 Skl - 17.1 Spd - 19.0 Def - 23.1 Res - 12.1 Luck - 21.5 hp - 52.8 pow - 23.8 skl - 22.7 spd - 20.5 def - 17.8 Res - 8.2 Luck - 12.2 HP - Lowen Pow - Heath Skl - Heath Spd - Heath Def - Lowen Res - Lowen Luck - Lowen (!!!) Heath still wins some...but that's without the supports added in. Figuring supports with Marcus and Eliwood, Heath would lose his advantages, at least to an extent. Now I'll bring up something new...class advantage. Paladin vs. Wyvern Lord. Lowen gets an extra weapon, even at first tier, giving him a major advantage and making it easier for him to fight...well, anything. Heath has just lances, but does have an axeslayer, which is a nice advantage...but that's one weapon, and an expensive one to reproduce. Lowen is fine with iron/steel weapons, with the occasional javelin thrown in here and there, but Heath will get mauled by an axeman if it hits him. Another advantage for Lowen is the Wyvern Lord's weakness to arrows and magic. Lowen has only one weakness, which is horseslayers, which you see much less than archers and magic users, which you see...all the time. I find it hard to understand that you can even consider Lowen worse than Heath. o_O |
 Thanks Diagon
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| Dragon Hellfire | Jul 13 2007, 04:41 AM Post #4 |
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Dragon Hellfire; three random words
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Now now, I'm quite disappointed with your counter. You hardly addressed all those points that I slaved over and just went to make yours in the same style, which would be fine and dandy if you considered what I have said, but that's not the case.
Yes, Fansite. This matters greatly in comparing the two on what a level of badassness they are. Sure we could bicker back and forth exchanging opinions, but when it comes down to it they are just opinions. However, that fansite hosts 84 opinions, adding mine to to make it 85, whereas your opinion only counts as 1. Unless you want to go tally up 85 other people that will vouch that Lowen is > Heath, I ask that you just admit right now that you're grasping at straws.
Excuse me, but how? Lowen may have his original colour of armour, but it isn't a good colour. Washed out yellow in a generic build, whereas Heath has a dark blue/black armour that's in the Bern build, also cracked. Yeah, his armour is cracked adding a bit of personality to it, something that poor Lowen just can't match up to. What else? The hair, definitely the hair. Lowen has fuzzy hair that obstructs his vision. If you were to read my post lad, you would of noticed that I mentioned this once or twice, but alas .... Along with mentioning that I also mentioned that Heath had two hair colours, and because palette was limited they decided to give him bluish-silver eyes. Do you know who else has bluish-silver eyes? Sephiroth, who just so happens to be one of the most gar and badass people in the history of gaming, deny it all you want. Freckles, Lowen has freckles. On his nose, even. Ok, that is obviously not a trait shared with any badass, so he gets no worth from that. So the only thing that this can get him is that he is a ginger. Yes. He only has freckles on his nose because he forgot to put enough make-up on it when he was going to up the Fire Emblem Sprite Artist to get his mugshot taken. His hair? Well it's dye of course, and he just so happened to have chosen an ugly, not cool looking colour. Heath may also have green, but it's dark, which shows mystery, Lowen's is light, which shows that he's out of the closet.
Great, originality. This does mean something, but it doesn't always mean something good. For example I was to say I was the only boy in my school without a penis. Now I don't know your opinions on the subject, hell with the way you've been talking about Lowen, perhaps you might thinking no penis is cool, but I digress. Having no penis as a male is generally looked down upon in society is labeled "not cool". Lowen's penis is his armour (not literally of course, I mean, I wouldn't be wearing my penis all over myself in an attempt to protect myself, again, make your own opinion), in which it may be original, but it's definitely "not cool". Now, because we're battling complete opinions, reference here. As you can see Yellow has accumulated 149 votes. Black on the other hand has 375. However, I mentioned that his armour was a dark blue/black, which means the most accurate result in getting exactly how 'cool' Heath's armour is, we shall average the votes of both blue and black. Blue: 1258 Average: 816.5 816.5/149=5.4798657718120805369127516778523 So Heath's armour is roughly 5.5 times as cool as Lowen's armour. Regardless of what you say, the statistical backup in numbers well represents that Heath's armour is in fact cooler than Lowen's. Well, colour wise at least. Once more I'm going to have to mention that Lowen's is the generic build of armour (possibly made out of his Penis), while Heath's is the generic Bern build of armour also cracked. Cracked means badass, alright, small little flaws in the buildwork of something does make it cooler. Now, if you're still completely bent on this "originality" bullshit. Then ... Who else in FE7 has a cracked shoulder plate on a suit in the armour of Bern? Who else in FE7 has both green and silver hair? Who else in FE7 has bluish silver eyes? Who else in FE7 has a Wyvern named Hyperion? And to make your argument completely false; Brenden also happens to have yellow armour.
He's a pansy? Ok, you tell me you would even go close to a FUCKING DRAGON. He rides a FUCKING DRAGON. Lowen rides a horsey, and it's sorrel. Not badass, not frightening, not a problem for your average pansy to mount. Heath is just too man for that kind of shit, so he rides around, once more, A FUCKING DRAGON. And your reasoning for calling him a pansy I must laugh at. Of course he doesn't kill women, he fucks them. Which does not make him a "pansy" in any way, hell, it makes him more "manly". Lowen probably doesn't kill women either, but he definitely doesn't fuck them. So yeah, Lowen is losing in that area. Then you talk about him being a pansy because he doesn't kill children? What the fuck kind of freak are you? No, absolutely not. Holding yourself back from killing little kids does not make you a "pansy", and even so, are you honestly going to tell me that little chef of yours is going to be killing them? If so Lowen loses any sort of respect he could of gotten as a Knight. And the chances are slim because according to the game he becomes quite a knight indeed, not exactly a badass or gar role, but it does disprove him killing children because that is obviously not a knightly thing to do. Your logic is so flawed and unwarranted.
No, not really. He's originally from Bern, and he turned traitor. Just because he's joining your team doesn't mean he's the "villain-turned-goodguy", it could mean the complete opposite. Either way Heath shows that he doesn't care for all the sentiments of his past, which is badass in itself. Your unit is the generic knight who hails from some place, stays in some place, grows in some place, dies in some place kind of guy.
I thought it would be nice to take a turn for what the casual player would be seeing in their supports, obviously it was not a complete comparison of them. However I do think that the support analysis I posted does hold quite a bit of weight when thinking about exactly how cool our units be. I guess I could of written up a complete comparison of supports, but at the time I thought that would leave you with absolutely nothing to write, which isn't fun on either end. However now I do believe that you wouldn've, seeing as you just ramble on about your own stuff without looking at mine anyways.
Even a slow support is a valid support, you say Legault is good, and I am assuming that Heath will be on my team as he is my unit, so even at the rate the support is going it will happen eventually, and I'll happily take an A support for the endgame. The support gives full Def, Eva and Cev, which is just what Legault wants, too. And Heath would love to add to his imperviousness. And I think it's pretty obvious that a support between a frontliner and a backliner is better than a support between two frontliners. All because the enemy forces do not traverse in a strait line, which means that when going into attack your units will be diagonal of each other, thus not supporting. However a backline unit can very easily go right behind the frontline unit for the support. Consider the following: F = Frontliner B = Backliner E = Enemy X = Empty Space XBX XFX FEF EXX As we can clearly tell the frontliners are clearly not touching each other because the enemies are not lined up prim and proper. The backliner has much more versatility in where it may stand (and in Legault's, more than enough), so the have not a problem choosing to stand next to their supporter.
Yes, Kent gets A Sain. Given. Lyn? Oh you have to be joking laddie, that can't be happening if I take the much smarter route and not use Lyn. Lyn is required for like, what, 1 chapter? Oh shit, I better spend the entire game working up a mediocre unit that promotes late and is lackluster statistically throughout the game just so she can suck in the final chapter too!!! Lyn is not worth the time, and therefor cannot get that Kent support with all these "statistics" and whatnot. Fiora could probably get Kent, and she's definitely not a horrible character, but if you are planning on using Heath, which I am, you might as well have her support Sain for Heath to support Kent. It would give Sain better bonuses, Kent Better bonuses, Heath better bonuses, and leave Fiora with slightly worse bonuses. Sain would increase his bonuses by a lot, and far more than Fiora would lose out on, so that alone should be enough to get Heath his B support.
Whoa, that was not a very good paragraph. A lot of these claims are quite poor, if I may say so. First off they are both horse-bound at second tier, great. Now, Lowen is horse-bound the entire game, whereas Eliwood is not. Hector isn't either, but due to Eliwood and Hector both being rather on the late end for promotion, it's easy to assume that they will be similar to each other for longer than Eliwood is similar to Lowen. If you are still not convinced, we can look at numbers and note that EliwoodxHector is nearly twice as fast as EliwoodxLowen. Taking in the time the supports will be building is when Eliwood and Hector are similar, and Lowen and Eliwood are not will show that the support for EliwoodxHector will build that much faster. "Can't say that for Heath, huh." ...? No, I can't say that Heath is one of Eliwood's best support options. What the hell does that gain you, though?
Alright, kid, stop attacking Heath in Lowen's support comparison without backup, when the time to do that was easily in Heath's support comparisons. Yeah, Marcus is cool and all but why are you supporting him? Marcus definitely does not need the bonuses from Lowen, and only a few chapters will they actually be able to benefit from these supports at the most. After that period of time using Marcus would be a detriment to the team because you have units better than him that can fill the spot better. Doing worse than what somebody else is doing means that you are holding the team back from what it could be doing. Does Lowen need somebody like this to be a good unit? Well if so the downfalls of it counterweight what Lowen has gained. Luckily I don't think Lowen needs Marcus to be usable, so we can just as well assume that he doesn't get an A support with Marcus, right? Cool.
At least Marcus is good early game, Isadora is mid tier throughout. Unless you want to be switching out a high tier unit for a mid tier unit making Lowen a bit worse for this support, it's not happening.
I'd actually say that Harken is Lowen's best option for an A support, but it is by no means that good of a support on Lowen's end. Lowen has to wait until chapter 27 until his support can build.
Personality matters when choosing your character because these characters are, well, characters. They aren't just bundles of number. If you really don't like Eliwood, which you've pretty much admitted to by using him as a reference to characters that should not be used because of their personalities, then there is no B support for Lowen on your dream team. Oh well.
Hector is good at this point but not Matthew? Especially with the "at this point" business. He only gets worse as time goes on, his main direct combative usefulness is earlier on in the game. Like, well, now. Hector, Lvl 4, Handaxe 15.8 Atk, 6 AS, 72.8 Hit, 2.7 Crt | 21.7 HP, 9.5 Def, 0.8 Res, 15.9 Eva Matthew, Lvl 9, Iron Sword 11.1 Atk, 15.9 AS, 105.9 Hit, 3.4 Crt | 23.2, 4.8 Def, 1.4 Res, 37.3 Eva Generic Brigand d00d, Lvl 1, Iron Axe 15 Atk, 6 AS, 81 Hit, 1 Crt | 23 HP, 3 Def, 0 Res, 12 Eva So offensively Matthew is dealing double 9's, for a total of 18 dmg. Hector is dealing a single 13, for a total of 13 dmg. Hector is hitting at about 70% real, while Matthew is hitting at a nice solid 100%. Matthew even has a 40% chance of having 1 Crt against him. >_>; Ok that last part doesn't matter, but the point is Matthew > Hector offensively at this point. This is also the point that there are few enough enemies, while still being threatening, that the best defensive is just getting rid of them so Serra can come in and do her job well. Defensive parameters are something, but Hector isn't raping Matthew. 1-2 HP, 0-1 Res, and 21-22 Eva Vs. 4-5 Def doesn't seem that lopsided. Hell, because of WTA against brigands, that lead in Eva can go up to 36-37 and that sure as hell makes Matthew better. Before that it's even a good chance. If you want to consider Hector good, then consider Matthew good as well. Come on dude, FE isn't that hard.
The entire point was that Lowen is not doing good. I didn't say that he was sucking or anything, just not good. Being not good means that he isn't getting those 1337 points like the mentioned units above are. With him having a harder time when he first joins, Heath is doing better. And dude, the entire point of this debate is supposed to be you proving that Heath is < Lowen. Not you trying to kick Lowen up to the status of average. Try a little bit, give me a challenge. And whats this multitude of swordsmen on the second chapter? By my count there is exactly one; Guy.
Bartre yes, Bartre is known for his major suckiness earlygame. Dorcas? Absolutely not. LowenL2 and DorcasL7 have the same AS, and Dorcas has a lead in Atk, Hit, and Crt. Defensively Dorcas is leading in HP by 10(!!!), and has a point in Res and Eva. All Lowen has defensively is that 3 Def. Sorry, but I do not think that Lowen is doing better than Dorcas combatively at this point. However you could counter that with Dorcas being at a higher level and shouldn't be gaining the experience, and while that may be true Dorcas still has the statistical advantages on his side. No unit is one rounding at this point, and because Dorcas is doing the most damage without killing he is the best unit for getting enemies down on HP for other units to kill. That's far more important than getting fed a kill to help the exp rank. Dorcas > Lowen earlygame Bartre has 3 more Mt, so Lowen is raping him or anything, just a bit better.
She's definitely not going to be on the frontlines, and she has quite a bit of use in the first chapter. Maybe you didn't realize that she has 16 Mt against the Pegs letting her do enough damage to finish them off or let another unit finish them off. The 7 dmg she does to brigands isn't horrible, and Lowen is only doing a bit better anyways. You have Dorcas/Eliwood for the frontlines for now, and it grows as the game progresses. Who do you have for the backlines? Well just Rebecca. When do you get another backliner? About four chapters later when you get Erk. The earlygame archer has a bit of use just because they are the early game archer. Lowen is the earlygame ... frontliner? Yeah no. Lowen isn't special. It's very debatable just who is better between Lowen and Rebecca for the early game.
I don't know. If Heath is mid tier. And if Lowen is not better than Heath. Then Lowen probably isn't better than most units.
The ballistae are not a problem for Heath as the important ones are most likely already dis-manned and the archers are very easy to pick off without Heath being in danger. Heath, unlike other units, can fly away at rather nice speeds dodging danger. Then he can come in, get fed kills, be wtfh4x for your experience rank, and turn into one of the greatest units on your team. There are plenty of high powered lances he can equip, because he has a B in lances at level 7. That's pretty h4x. And Archers do six more damage to him because he flies, that's nothing. Especially considering that Heath's Def stat is probably on par or even past a few of your units at this point. Base 12 Def at level 7? Hawt.
Why in the hell are trying to get within the range of them? This is EM, this is HHM, this is a defend chapter. The main thing that we should be focusing on is defending Nils. So that means have people go near the left of the map for chests and stuff, get Heath, then have everyone back up towards the top killing everything. Maybe use like Oswin or something to go rape a few areas, but that's it.
Yeah archers I can understand, but dude, he averages 1.7 less Res than Lowen. That entire defense is just stereotypical, it's not like they get an effectiveness bonus against him. And this map isn't so hard on Heath as long as you aren't running him into enemies like a dumbass. Obviously he's not totally free ranged here where he can just kill kill kill, but he is one of the best here nonetheless, and definitely better than Lowen if only for the fact that he can move. Oh, what's this? My unit who joins horridly underleveled wayyy after Lowen is better than him in the second chapter after he joins? Crazy stuff indeed.
He's better? He's better than being one of the best units on your team in the last chapter? Even with those snipers and enclosed spaces? Good shit!
Good thing Heath is there to take out those ballistae. And in Lloyd's version he's there to light up the map with a torch and his insane movement. Linus' chapter is a water map ... lol. You think other characters had problems moving across sand?
Alright, I'm fairly sure we are out of "his joining situation" now. I mean, that was a few chapters ago. However I'll humor you. This chapter has a ballista, yes, but who happens to be one of the better people for taking it out? Heath of course! He can fly right over that water and rape those ballistae users before they do some serious damage. By now his Def is like 14, and his HP 36, in which case he can easily survive a blow from a bow.
All you've showed me is that if you're a complete idiot and send Heath within the range of a bunch of enemies he'll probably die. Well you know what? Lowen doesn't exactly have invulnerability early game. If you were to shoot him out into the middle of the map he will most likely die, and the enemies don't even need an effectiveness bonus. He's not being babied kills at this point, he's part of the team that needs to be killing, so that's just about exactly what he's doing. Heath has the choice of running out or not and can still stay good. Lowen doesn't.
Why wouldn't I use all four paladins? They are probably one of the best classes in the games, second to Wyverns of course. Sain and Kent are both very good units, so I was hoping that instead of removing both Sain and Kent from the roster just to get Lowen an earlier promotion, you would take the smart route and just remove Oswin and use Sain and Kent and promote Lowen later. The latter is better for Lowen, trust me. The detrimental value of losing two paladins >>> the value of Lowen promoting two chapters earlier.
The accepted level for them is in the low tens. Lowen doesn't gain massive on experience up until they join, and they are off doing their own thing so they are away from the party gaining their own experience, so yeah, they will have a level lead. Even if it's not large, one of them will promote first and the other would promote next because that would increase the two's support use again and put them back at the same mov. It does quite the opposite when you promote Lowen.
Alright, it's nice that you have these crazy little ideas of yours and all, but what the hell dude? Are you retarded? I mean first off I think I covered Heath gaining wtfmassive experience on the desert chapter for being able to kill/finish off just about everything, and that's enough to have his defenses push him the next couple of chapters. And even if he wasn't exactly as good as I put him, getting 20/14 ENDGAME is absurd. He still has superior movement and stats to plenty of your characters in the middle of his instance so he will be getting more kills than others putting his experience at a more team average level. I thought I was being nice at 20/16, but some people just can't get enough. And this was bad ... 20/20? You know just by giving Lowen his 20/20 you pretty much admit that Heath is solidly better than him? That's because unlike Lowen, Heath isn't RAPING the exp rank all the way down to a 3 star. Really, try it, use 20/20 units in the final chapter and you will go down multiple stars in the exp rank. I don't agree with your stats and I do believe that my comparisons of offenses and defenses are much more accurate than yours for what should happen in game. So until you change my mind we'll just have to bash heads on this point. Oh, and way to add HM bonuses.
Each character has roughly 42k to use as provided by Reikken. Heath is not there for that long of a time, so he obviously has more moneys in his pocket for expensive weapons than the people that have been there longer, like, say, Lowen. If Heath wants a better weapon he has it. 42k-10k=32k Promotion item check Silver Lance = 1200 Killer Lance = 1200 Axe Reaver = 1950 Needless to say he'd need to burn like twenty GODLY weapons until he is really fucked for funds. Luckily that isn't happening, and later in the game he can still use weak weapons and rape tons of enemies because of his godly stats. The only thing that Lowen really gains from extra weapon types is WTA. At the point that Heath goes from experience rank god -> combative god it won't really matter because Heath will probably be beating him offensively anyway. He hits Lowen's 20/20 Str at level 19/-- lol.
What weakness to magic? 20/18 Lowen w/supports RES: 12.5 20/16 Heath w/supports RES: 14.4 Looks like paladin's have a worse weakness to magic. And archers still don't kill him, so I don't care. |
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.:FES:. Formerly: Juggernaut, FireBane 100% of BwdYetis don't care about your percentages. | |
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| Wooper | Jul 15 2007, 01:35 PM Post #5 |
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I've worked on this two or three seperate occasions. Sorry if I contradict myself First, your argument that Heath is cooler.
So...Heath being cooler makes it easier to get S ranks and helps make the game easier, huh? I better use Wallace then, he's pretty cool. So all your arguing on who's cooler means nothing. I mean, Bartre would be the best character if cooler meant better. :/ ...but before I go on, these are tamed dragons that half the Bern Army rides. They're pretty raw, but riding one doesn't make him HARDCORE. :/ DEBAET TIEMZ NAO.
Problem is, Legault isn't even a fighting unit. He's primarily supposed to be opening chests. Unless you want to drag Heath away from the bulk of the battle, this isn't exactly the best support partner. When he's lighting up the battlefield with a torch, he doesn't even have to be that close to light up a decent area, not to mention he doesn't even have to be the one with the torch. Stealing items is something that doesn't come up a whole lot, but when it does, it's easy to steal the item and kill any close opposition, or if that isn't possible, rescue Legault or make a fleshy-human-meatshield between him and the enemies. Oh, and, maybe I'm weird, but my troops sure don't all traverse in a straight line either. I have support partners together in the early levels, but your frontline units usually have few problems staying next to eachother, even on the larger, more open levels. I will admit that the problem does arise, but it's hardly ever much of a problem. Backliners, if they get to close to the front, are in danger (obvious).
So the enemies are gonna come after you the same way every time? Unless I missed something, there is no pattern to how they come at you. And even so, the way you set up the units is flawed, and will barely happen. Will it happen? Sure. I can make a big explanation as to how this is wrong, but I could sum it up by saying most of the time, your units will have ranged weapons. They can stay next to eachother AND attack. Not to mention you will have more than just those supporting units in the frontlines, and they can just as easily help kill stuff, letting the supporters stay together in these situations.
More like half. Not to mention she's only really lacking str. and def, the latter which she makes up for with her massive evd. Yeah, she isn't much of a help on the later levels, but the support not only helps her with that, but further aids her in surviving, which she needs in those chapters that she's stuck in. She may not be amazing, but she's perfectly fine with supports, and stuck with you. Not to mention she comes on the same level as Kent and is his second fastest support, while Heath is way behind at second slowest.
She could support Sain...in fact, she could support both, getting a support triangle, and before Heath even joins.
Ok, Hector gets a support with Eliwood, yay. When they both promote, they're completely different. Eliwood has 3 mov more than Hector, and they have different roles: Eliwood is basically a Paladin, and Hector is basically a General. It isn't hard at all to get a support with Lowen and Marcus instead of Hector. Well, Marcus is harder, but there are quite a few opportunities to get the supports. If it's Hector you're worried about, go ahead and get a B support with him. It'll be useless as the game goes on though. EliwoodxLowen will get progressively more useful though.
Well, it's a lot faster, yes, but like I mentioned above, it'll become obsolete as you get to the later levels. Hector should firstly get an A with Oswin, as they're gonna be together at the beginning AND the end, and for all I care, Eliwood can get B. Lowen is a good choice for A though, for the reasons I already stated.
...so you say Marcus should be dropped, then you say you use 4 Paladins? Well, I guess you're right...'cept that's all Legault does when there are no chests or no need for torches. He can steal, but how many people have stealable items? Not a whole lot. Besides, Marcus can still be useful by rescuing, as he can rescue just about anyone and can get to the very back with his high mov. Not to mention he can still fight, albeit not as well as others, which is something Legault can't do. He's by no means a bad choice, and at the same time by no means worse than Legault is for Heath, leaving Heath back at one plausible support.
And that brings up something I haven't mentioned. Heath's best support (Vadia) can't start until chapter 30, if I remember correctly, and that's if you want to bring her AND Heath into it, which would prevent you from bringing Priscilla, one of Hector's support partners, or someone with axes (for all the knights, if I remember correctly). So really, you have to wait until 31, which is full of snipers. Fun fun fun for Heath and Vadia, huh? :D
Once again, I'm just following the whole point of the debates: Who's the best for rank and getting through the game. Otherwise, I'd be using Bartre. :/
...wtf? Whoever came up with the standards for Lyn's mode scares me. ._. If I'm not mistaken, he comes at level 1 in Lyn's mode, or 2. He also comes with 6 chapters left. He'd have to grow about 1.5 levels per chapter. He's also possibly the worst fighting unit at this point, with only his constant doubling and dodging. How you manage 1.5 levels per chapter while keeping everyone else high, especially those who need the boost and that are gonna be used, is beyond me. Of course, I've never been a big Matthew fan, so maybe I'm just biased. You're right at least that a lv. 9 Matthew is better than Hector at the beginning. I guess I should learn my accepted levels for Lyn's mode characters x_x
Well, of course he isn't as good as the other people, most are higher levels. Of course, that doesn't mean he isn't good. He has two weapons (including a ranged weapon, giving him better range than anyone until you get Erk, with the exception of Bartre, but...well, I'm guessing you want to hit),
Woops. My mistake...I was thinking myrmidons came out of the forts, not lancers. Even so, Lowen can take these out perfectly fine, better than Eliwood can with an iron sword (assuming you aren't wasting his Rapier on soldiers), as he has a javelin. Not to mention you can take them out from afar, and not even risk damage, unlike anyone else (with the exception of Bartre, but...well, yeah, it's Bartre. :/)
I should stop forgetting about the pegs...even so, she usually can't kill them...which is why Lowen does. Not to mention he can take care of brigands with relative ease, though I will admit he has trouble killing stuff along early on (which is why I injure stuff with Rebecca, and kill it with Lowen).
Heath isn't special either. He's a wyvern...but you already have two flying units. He's strong and a good frontliner...but you already have those. He's good with a lance...but you have Oswin, three cavaliers, and Marcus, plus the Peg knights and...probably someone that I'm forgetting (>.<).
Well, the whole point of the debate is to debate who's better. You say Heath is better, I say Lowen is. I'm right, but we apparently have to debate over it. 
Um, all units can run away. In fact, the Paladins can go farther than him, and the cavaliers can go the same speed. 7 mov isn't special. The ballistas are dismanned? What happened to staying away? But I'll get to that when I get down there. He can be wtfh4x for your exp rank, if he survives. Yes, archers do 6 more damage...that adds up when you get attacked more than once in a turn. Which, of course, you will if Heath is rushing in and getting fed kills.
AND you contradict yourself. You can't take out the ballistas when you're defending Nils. Well, you CAN, but more archers are gonna come, and if you just sit someone like Oswin there, Eubans is gonna end up running up (stupid NPCs ) and getting himself killed (yay oswin?) before the end of the chapter, killing your exp rank. If you stay in the same spot and ignore the ballistas though, you'll have little trouble and the ballistas will run out. Heath can run around and get exp then, but it won't be the wtfh4x you're talking about. :/
...he averages under 2 res up to level 12. With the hard mode bonus, it's around 3 at that point. 3 res isn't exactly the kind of res you want against these guys.
Lowen is bad on this level cause of sand. If it weren't for that, Lowen would be better off, since he'd be a higher level, thus higher res, def, and no weakness to archers. Of course, you have to bench all your horse units on this level anyway. It doesn't make Heath any better...woo, one level. You have two other flying units who both have a better chance of surviving. Given that very few units on the level are melee units without bows, he isn't exactly one of the best. Not to mention both Pegs have a better chance of rescuing Pent, and are much higher leveled at this point. Sending Heath to get Pent would be suicide, and that's one of the only things that makes a flying unit extra useful in the level.
Too bad he ISN'T. Snipers and enclosed spaces isn't even the worse part. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the magic users with long-range magic can move outside the magic-nulled area, and unless I'm mistaken, they'll be glad to aim at Mr. 3 res.
Well, unless I'm forgetting something, the ballista is on an island on Linus's chapter, and the archers on the same little island. Heath doesn't have enough mov to get up there before someone starts shooting him. If anything, Hawkeye should go up there, as he has better defense and can easily hold is own against whatever is waiting there for him. The other chapter I'm not sure, but wouldn't the torch be better in the hands of thief, or even better, why not just use a torch staff? Both are just as good, if not better, and require less risk. If I remember the map correctly, it'll take one extra turn for a Pally (like, omarg, Lowen?!) to get up to the ballista than it'll take Heath. Not to mention Lowen can use the torch just as well, even though it'd still be better in the hands of a thief or Prissy (torch staff).
Yeah, you're probably right, but I'm stressing that he has trouble for quite a while after he joins. I was thinking the wrong level though, sorry...I completely forgot about that level >.<;
Heath will die if he runs out in any of the levels I mentioned. I admit that Lowen is not that good early, but he's better off than Heath is. Lowen has two weapons (including a ranged weapon) at the beginning of the game, which leaves him with no weaknesses to any weapons. Not to mention the first level is full of axemen (which he can fight with his sword, and be perfectly fine as long as he isn't alone up there) and peg knights (he and rebecca can take these out easily). His second level isn't much harder. By the time you get to the extra chapter with Merlinius, he can easily hold his own when he runs up to the town in the top-right of the map.
Second to Wyverns, huh. That's funny. :lol: Well, he according to what you said below, that helps my argument, doesn't it? If he's at 18, then he doesn't kill my exp rank. :D And even so, after chapter 14 or so, he can easily handle anything thrown at him, As for Heath's levels, you'd be surprised how many levels he's screwed in. Chapter 22 - Already explained. Ballistas + Archers + Axemen with Swordreavers (rendering his best weapon at the time useless) + Eubans + Underleveled Heath = Not much exp, or a dead Heath. Lowen? He can use his tankiness to do the bulk of the defending, and none of the aspects of the level are much to Lowen, who should be high-leveled and one of your most defensive units at that point. Chapter 23 - Once again, already explained. Heath is up against hordes of archers, magic (and I will remind you, his res is still averaging no higher than 1 at this point), and two strong warriors, who just happen to have weapons that can completely destroy him. Looks like he won't be doing a whole lot here. Lowen wont be doing much either, but Heath, who has such an amazing mov on the level, will be just about even in usefulness. Chapter 23x - Heath won't last long against the long range magic, nor against the Snipers (though they shouldn't be too much of a problem), though Lowen won't be amazing here either. He'll be better off than Heath, especially an underleveled Heath, but I guess he isn't a good choice either. :/ Chapter 24 - With Linus's level, you got a ballista, long range magic, Geitz, corsairs out the wazoo, and highly offensive Heroes. Yeah, a breeze for Heath, huh? Lloyd's level (in case you have underleveled lords, which you seem to according to your opinion of Lyn :/), you got a ballista and...arg, can't remember this level well...myrmidons, if I remember correctly, plus the fog. Heath could use a torch, but there are better people for that. This one is better for him, but the level is much worse for you. Take your pick. :/ Chapter 25 - You got a bunch of magic one way (including Purge), axe users another, and lance users another, plus ballistas. The lance users should be taken care of by Hector or another axe user, leaving Heath with...nothing. Lowen can easily help with either the axes (yey swords) or the lances (yey axes). Chapter 26 - Mages, Nomads, Brigands...not Heath's best situation. Lowen is perfectly fine against all but the mages. Chapter 27 - One version screws them both over, but the other is good for both. Hey, Heath is finally getting to a good start! :D Chapter 28 - Not Heath's best. Ursula with bolting, along with a bunch of magic. It's not horrible, but Heath will be limited. Chapter 28x - Shitload of magic, along with Sonia's Bolting and a Berserk staff, which could easily take Heath with his lackluster res. He has an advantage with his flying, but the only stuff he's gonna find in the water is Pirates and other wyverns/falcos. Chapter 29 - Lots of stuff for him to worry about, but this is one of his better levels. Lowen will be better, thanks to his def, but Heath will be by no means bad. Chapter 30 - You get two spots. Logically, you're gonna want Priscilla and a Hero or Paladin, since the level is chock-full of knights. Lowen is a pretty good choice here if you give him an axe. Chapter 31 - Almost nothing but Snipers and Shamans, plus a few knights...not to mention the long distance staves. I seriously doubt you're gonna bring Heath here. Lowen is fine against Chapter 31x - Heath and Lowen are fine here...but that's obvious. In fact, Heath gets the upper hand here for the first time...'cept there are NO enemies. Too bad. Chapter 32 - Bunches of ballistas + Mountains of Magic (some long range too :o) + Chapter 32x - Can't say much for this level, I never played it. >.<; Chapter 33 - Well, here's the last level. After all that, is Heath the monster that he should be? Doubt it.
What the hell kind of supports are you using? o_O I don't know how to work in supports, but I DO know that Lowen has a lead of at least 2 without them, and Heath gets little more than he does from supports. I dunno, maybe I'm crazy. :/ I can barely think anymore. I'm trying to juggle this and a busy day of work x_x; |
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Thanks Diagon
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| Dragon Hellfire | Jul 18 2007, 04:49 AM Post #6 |
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Dragon Hellfire; three random words
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WOW! Way to go genius, you just successfully disregarded half of what our debate was focusing on. I don't care about FEP's standards, to actually enter a debate with so much focus on a subject, then, after already debating it, say that it is pointless is just stupid. Then instead of just stopping at "it doesn't matter", you proceed to say "Heath being cooler", implying that Heath is, in fact, cooler. That admits that half of what you said in your first post is wasted and all in favour. So you didn't just waste half this debate from here onward (actually, you could of attempted next post if you didn't admit he was cooler), but you also managed to fuck up what you had last post. And no, obviously stats play a very large role in the game. They are what matters most, they are not all that matters. Heath is a good unit, and while you could say otherwise it's not doing much for Lowen if Lowen is worse, so him being cool is an added incentive to use him over other units on your team. The chances of you giving a kill to a unit that is cool to a unit that isn't are pretty good, the fact Heath is underleveled puts a nice solid backup for the kill, while not completely necessary. The time that this will come into the most play is when a unit that isn't cool Vs. a unit that is cool can go in for the kill and they are at the same level, you obviously use the one that is cool. Lowen doesn't have any advantage being both not cool, and having other units being at a lower level than him. And to top this horrible, horrible statement off, I'll use FEFF's standards:
So yes, they are only "more valid", they are not "all that is valid". Especially when our debate focused on them. I wanted a debate, not a half-forfeit half-lolidunnostats post.
This can't be considered as anything but a reason that they should be supporting each other. If Legault isn't a fighting unit, then he doesn't need to be fighting when he is convoying with rest of the group, thus meaning he can stand right behind Heath most of the time without any loss to your team. When he's opening chests, they are either on the main route in which Heath can go with him and kill enemies near the chests. There are still enemies near where the chests in question are, so Heath is a great candidate for picking them off. Another unit may be brought along too, like Kent. Point is that dragging Heath over to chests does not mean you are, in fact, dragging Heath away from the battle.
What are you talking about?
Yeah, and btw, Heath is probably the best person to do that rescuing because of his superior movement. Or you know, you could just kill the opposition and move on.
Your units not traveling in a strait line + enemy units not traveling in a strait line =/= units supporting wtf?
If you put them there, then there are enemies about, and tons of them. This definitely means that your units that are both frontliners are not supporting. If they are not in danger, which is most of the time, then they are supporting the frontliner. While two frontliners still might not be supporting each other.
That was just lame. No, they obviously aren't coming at you the same way each time, which is why it's an example to consider and not "This is how the game is played", if it was the same pattern everytime then this game would be too easy. I'm just saying that it is much, much more likely than not that the enemies will not be lining themselves up to get raped.
Ohh, well who's Lowen's first support partner, and only decent support partner for most of the game? Eliwood! Eliwood happens to use swords which do not have range, meaning that if Lowen will be the one from attack from afar. This may speed up the support a bit, but Lowen now has shit offense and is about worthless even against the weaker axe users. He loses 1 AS, 1 Mt, 15 Hit, and costs more at a time when money is short. So yeah, now we have Lowen as a horrible unit, is that what you wanted? He has 49 base hit against Brigands and does 9 damage to them. Javelin's do have their uses, but they most definitely are not a primary weapon, especially for a unit that has bad hit.
Dude, with her insanely late promotion, chapter 29, not even her Eva is good. She is just plain and simple suck. 59 Eva w/supports at chapter 29 WHILE locked to swords and bows is supposed to make up for her shitty def? AhahahahhhhhahhhhhhhhhhhhH!H!HH!!!!! Sure in like the very last chapter her eva could be helping her ... well if she wasn't fighting units like Darin and shit.
They help her, sure, but she still sucks tons. I'll just use a unit that isn't horrible and support Kent with Heath, that sounds wayyyy better, kthx.
She's perfectly fine? What the shit is this? Are you looking at the times that her stats will develop? Even with full supports she is either bad to average in every stat thanks to her promotion. She is in no way "perfectly fine".
So? If she isn't going to be used thanks to suck, and Heath is thanks to not suck, then Heath is the better support option. If you actually think about it, his support is faster than the one Lyn has because he's actually on the field in a position that he can support.
Why are you depriving Florina of an A support?
No.
You're totally ignoring that that Lowen has 2 more Mov than Eliwood before promotion, and 1 more mov than Eliwood after promotion. They never have the same Mov, while Hector and Eliwood have the same Mov for a LONG ASS time. Then when they don't the difference is still only 2; the same difference that Lowen and Eliwood had for a LONG ASS time. So yeah, the mov difference between Hector and Eliwood is SURELY, and I do say SURELY smaller than the Mov difference between Eliwood and Lowen.
Marcus? wtf? And no, it isn't hard, just not advisable. We're debating the best route through the game here using our units and A supporting Lowen and Eliwood is most definitely not the best route.
I'm going to take a support with a partner that has a different Mov than me for a long ass time that's twice as slow as the other one that gives the same bonuses just so Lowen can have an extra support with Eliwood? Yeah, fuck that shit. Lowen can already get full supports so there is not a reason that I should give him that extra Eliwood support. It's basically who should A Eliwood, and because Eliwood gets and A with Hector before getting a B with Lowen, and Lowen has 2 more mov I'll surely be giving it to Hector. Eliwood gets h4x defensive stats from Hector, too, which he's going to need early game. Gah, I honestly don't see why the hell I would ever A support Lowen instead of Hector. Hector: Faster Close mov Better bonuses for the most part Lowen: A tiny bit better from chapter 26-30 when it doesn't really matter anymore?
Yeah, you drop him, but you still use him. And my argument was just saying that just because they are of the same class doesn't mean that you can only use a few of them.
Unless you promote him. Then he still a good enough unit to use on the team if you include support bonuses that he gets from Heath, loldefenses. Endgame he has like 20-ish Def, and 100 Eva. His offense is definitely not wtfh4x, but at least he can double and use expensive weapons to try and bring up his offense. Marcus can only double rly rly weak enemies, and has nothing to bring up his AS. The main thing is that a promoted, supported Legault doesn't die like a bitch, and can be used without being a massive detriment to the team. Exactly how many chapters is he reccomended for use after Heath joins? Chapter 22: Chests Chapter 23: FoW and desert items Chapter 23x: Chests Chapter 24A: Steal Chapter 27A: Chests Chapter 27b: Chests/Doors Chapter 28: Chests/Steal Chapter 28x: Chests/Steal Chapter 30: Chests/Steal Chapter 31: Chests Yes, I think I'll take it. As you said, Legault is not a good combative unit, while being able to survive he doesn't deal that much damage. So you'll generally have him on the backlines where he can't rape your combat ranking, and this allows him to support Heath very easily. Legault isn't doing anything else in between stealing times so he can just follow Heath around. Yes. This brings me back to my original point: Even a slow support is a valid support. No matter how fast it's going, it's going, and in that case it's going good.
What the fuck? No, Vaida is cool and all for non-ranked runs, but you already gave me that part of this debate. For non-ranked runs she isn't good and I'll just stick with A Legault and B Kent. Chapter 30 is normally just Hector, Eliwood, Thief. So yeahhhh.
Well it's perfectly fine for Heath, you know, with that thing called the Delphi shield and all. Actually, he's probably h4x against all those bow users with his great Def stat and insane offense w/ranged weapons. Unlike Lowen he should have enough power at this point in the game to h4x up the enemies with a Javelin.
You're following FEP's. But hey, good job countering anything I just said there.
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7/6=1.5? He's not even there for 6 chapters, 5. He can't go to chapter 8. Have you played this game? Even so 7/5=1.4, which is very manageable. Very manageable especially with his thief experience bonus. And maybe you didn't notice, but I also gave Hector level 4, why is this? Well it's because I included the starting chapter where both of them could gain a level or two and then the next chapter I put down what they have throughout it. Not just what they start with. So if anything, if anything I was being nice to Hector only giving Matthew 7 levels. And when he gets back he is even good combatively against the enemies, moreso than Hector so you are most likely going to have him being used for a few enemies that Hector can't handle. The Merc for example.
"possibly the worst fighting unit at this point" "constant doubling and dodging" Ok, wtf? And he isn't even a fighting unit, he's a thieving one. But enough of that, if he's constantly doubling, and sometimes against units that others would not then he sure as hell isn't doing horrible. If he is the worst so be it, that only means that the others are h4x. He's not as good as Lyn and the Cavaliers combatively but he isn't exactly doing that much worse off than anyone else. Dorcas has doubling issues, Florina has Str issues just like him and doubling issues while weidling anything aside from a Slim. WTD too. So yeah, Matthew is right on par with the rest of the team combatively.
Dude, he's not raping everyone's else experience, him killing just as much as another unit will have him gaining more levels because of the Thief boost. And to get exactly how much experience is needed per chapter to get to a level 9 chapter 12 average isn't 150. Chapter 12 average is obviously speaking about what Matthew has at most times in chapter 12, so we'll just .5 of a chapter that. 6 Chapters(chapter 11)+.5=6.5. 7 levels needed/6.5 chapters = 108 experience. That's not hard at all especially when he's one of two units you have on chapter 11.
I don't care if he isn't bad. He's in a worse position than Heath when it comes to their joining situation. That's what matters, which of our units is better. All you've been proving is that Lowen isn't bad, and I couldn't care less about that when Heath is doing better.
Marcus, Hector, Dorcas, Bartre, Rebecca, and Oswin can all attack from afar. What are you talking abot? And when you say this stuff about Bartre, I'm assuming that you think Bartre is, in fact bad. Now it's nice that you've been trying so hard to prove that Lowen isn't bad, but if he is worse than a unit that is very well known for being bad, he himself can only be deemed bad, correct? Well then, lets start the comparison. Generic Soldier Reinforcement: 14 Atk, 82 Hit, 0 Crt, 0 AS | 24 HP, 3/1 Def, 2/0 Res, 20/0 Eva Javelin!Lowen Lvl4: 9.6x2 Atk, 53.2 Hit(57 real hit, 32.5% of landing both hits) HandAxe!Bartre Lvl4: 15x2 Atk, 68.7 Hit(81 real hit, 65.6% of landing both hits) Rounds needed for Lowen to kill on average: 6.15 Rounds needed for Bartre to kill on average: 1.52 Good job again. You've proved that he is worse than a bad unit like Bartre at times. And not just a little bit worse, but four times worse. Sure this isn't consistent, but if you've deemed Bartre a bad unit, like you have, and Lowen does FOUR TIMES WORSE than him at times, then hell yes, Lowen is actually doing bad. Even if only a little bit, it sure as hell proves that he is far from doing good. If he was like Heath where he is h4xing up the exp rank, then maybe he'd have something, but no, doesn't roll like that.
What? Rebecca does 13 damage to the pegs. Lowen does 8-11 damage to the pegs. If she can't "usually" kill them, then how the hell do you expect Lowen to be able to kill them? There's a good chance that he'll be doing that 8 because there are brigands around and using lances is not something you want to be doing.
Early on? EARLY ON? Dude, it almost never gets better. Late promotion + bad Str + Bad Skl + Mediocre Spd = bad offense. Heath isn't that great when you first get him but he starts h4xing it up in no time. And I mean no time. He comes with 13.25 Str whereas Lowen only has 12.4 at this point. Indeed. This is at 13 levels under. Heath grows 6.5 Str in 13 levels. Ftw. And why are you giving kills to Lowen? I don't know, giving kills to Eliwood seems more logical. Probably bias.
Heath is the only flier that actually has so much in his defenses he can go do stuff. Actually, he pretty much ties Florina's 20/20 average for Def at his base level. Fiora is sturdier, but Heath begins to wtfraep her in defense in like ... the end of his starting chapter. You realy fail to realize just how good Heath's stats are. You also forgot the mention that he is an experience god that's actually good enough when he joins to use. Unlike other units; Nino.
What's your point?
Rushing in AND getting fed kills? How is he in danger then? If he's getting fed kills then the place will be clear of most units and he can kill it. It would be feeding him kills if he was going to die, it would be getting him killed. And seriously dude, his defenses are not worse than other units on your team, only his level. The only thing that he even slightly has to worry about is Archers, and all he has to do to make them attack somebody else is use a javelin. They don't like to attack units that can strike back, you know.
Lol. Dude, I said they would be dismanned very shortly after you get Heath or while you are getting Heath and doing those other little things. They obviously don't have to be dismanned if they aren't hurting anyone. Besides, Heath isn't even the number 1 target for them; Fiora and Florina.
This is quite the tangent, but seriously, by the time that Oswin kills Eubans if he does, the chapter is pretty much over and you aren't killing much of anything anyways. Now, if you do however sit Oswin there, the ballistae aren't much of a problem anymore, and you can go free reighn with Heath. ftw.
And Lowen has like 5 at this point with his massive level lead. He has like four more HP. So I don't think Lowen is h4xing him up in anyway. Heath is definitely doing better here because he can actually move around. If Lowen is in the spot that he's fucked, he's fucked. Heath can just turn his ass around. Well, I supposed Lowen could be recued and moved, but who do you suppose would do the rescuing?
Hypothetically? Well if you only used Heath and gave him a bunch of stat boosters he'd be better than Lowen. Oh, right, doesn't go like that.
First I don't know how in the hell higher level = no weakness to archers. I'll give you this, level 11 Heath has 12.5 Def. Level 19 Lowen has exactly 1.3 more. Heath catches up with him by the end of the level. Roflroflroflrofl. Lowen starts gaining his lead again when Heath's level ups start slowing and Lowen promotes, but until then Heath is just that h4x compared to him.
No, it doesn't make his stats better or anything, but it does indeed make him better compatively. This is a huge comparison debate, so comparitively does in fact matter. If you're benching Lowen, and Heath is doing h4x on this chapter, then Heath is doing quite a bit better than Lowen.
What? They have worse defenses against everything but magical. Sure there are a lot of magical units in this chapter, but Heath is doing fine against them thx to wtfHP. The Peg sisters are doing worse against all the physical enemies, and because physical enemies include archers we can tell that they will be doing quite a bit worse in parts. Of course they still are probably doing better for the most part, but they have done a lot of training and are in the middle of their instance, whereas Heath is still at the start. Heath may not be h4xing up them, but at least he's h4xing up Lowen.
Cool, the pegs can go do that. Of course, then they will most likely get raped too thanks to whoever rescuing him losing tons of their best defensive stat; evasion. Nobody is doing exceedingly good here, and even if the Pegs are doing better, we can sure as hell note that Heath is doing WAYYYYY, WAYYYYYYY better than Lowen.
Huh? But you said...
Yeah yeah, I actually don't think you should bring Heath to this chapter. I don't think you should bring Lowen either, though, just any unit with high Res and healers. Hector, Hawkeye, and a Thief are mandatory; those other 5 spots shouldn't be hard to fill. However most of the credit for this chapter's gains go to Heath because Heath is ultimately one of the biggest factors in obtaining the factor. What did Lowen do? Oh, that's right, nothing.
Good thing Heath has like 38-39 HP and 13-14 Def. Those archers still won't have an easy time killing him, especially when he can close range them to death. The peg sisters could probably be there making the visit short and sweet, then the rest of the chapter could be Heath raping the hell out of shit and gaining wtfexperience.
Yeah, Hawkeye is better once he gets there, but the thing is once he gets there the ballistae has been there for quite a while. That's holding back a part of your team from being the best it can be; your fliers. The fliers would be suffering just as much if Hawkeye went up there than if they went up there, just if they went up there it would take a lot less turns. Less turns is good.
Why not use all three? The thief is for your main party, and the staff and Heath are for far off in case of unsceen dangers that you might want to prepar for. Oh, and this chapter has hard to reach villages, gogogo Heath.
If you remember correctly, Lowen is worse. Cool dude, Lowen is close to being as good as Heath. Too bad you want him to better than Heath.
Probably right? Well actually I typoed my HP's, more like 39 instead of 36, but yeah, I'm probably right.
All you've done is repeat the same stuff over and over showing me almost nothing. So I'm going into the left field and I'm going to counter with what you quoted because you did not counter that: "All you've showed me is that if you're a complete idiot and send Heath within the range of a bunch of enemies he'll probably die. Well you know what? Lowen doesn't exactly have invulnerability early game. If you were to shoot him out into the middle of the map he will most likely die, and the enemies don't even need an effectiveness bonus. He's not being babied kills at this point, he's part of the team that needs to be killing, so that's just about exactly what he's doing. Heath has the choice of running out or not and can still stay good. Lowen doesn't." Seriously, all you did is prove that Lowen doesn't suck hardcore, not that he's better than Heath when it comes to joining time. Well, you said he's better than Heath, but that was the only mention I saw.
Yeah, flying > axes. Especially when Heath can use Lances and still have more str than Lowen ... with WTD. Heath beats Lowen's 20/20 str average before promotion lol.
So now you're agreeing with my levels proving that Heath is better than Lowen statistically and that your first post wrong. :D
Alright, I'll probably be ignoring most of the Lowen to Heath direct comparisons because they don't make sense. To my knowledge because you didn't counter my first post, you agree that Heath should be compared mid-instance to Lowen's mid-instance, late-instance to late-instance, and such. I'll be skipping the first five chapters because we already ... covered that, and I'm very lazy and don't have much passion for this stuff anymore. >_>;;;
Actually this chapter is more well known for it's Wyvern's. All 51 of them. How's Heath doing compared to Lowen? Well Heath is like level 19 or so now, nearly promoting, while Lowen is promoted at level 20/3 via Earth Seal. First thing I'd like to point is Heath has 19.25 Str, and Lowen has ... 14. WTA w/axes? Not really helping Lowen too much as Heath still has more Mt. Lowen also has a support with the just recently promoted Eliwood that should be helping out his Atk by 2, but it's still not enough, and Heath has B Kent to increase his lead by 1 too. Lowen has .05 more AS than Heath ... lets just ignore that and say they have the same AS. So Heath is already beating Lowen offensively and he is at the earlier end of his instance and Lowen is nearing the end of his instance. Harharhar, if this is Lowen late, what was he when he was near the beginning of his instance? In all the time he's been here he must of just sat there sucking. Defensively ... well here's where Heath's supports come in. Lowen has 43 HP and 18 Def, Heath has 41.6 HP and 16.85 Def. Lowen is beating him in base Def by 1, and Lowen is your tanker unit. Heath probz isn't dying, but his ability to move out and about more freely than Lowen pulls him ahead. Especially because of the mountains, you never know when you need somebody somewhere else on the map quick, and because of all the terrain problems Lowen has he isn't the best choice. I'd actually say Heath is winning in this chapter, better offense + comparable defense + massive mobility = Heath > Lowen And this is Heath early half, Lowen late half. Harharhar.
Good start? Dude, Heath is promoting in this chapter and is starting to take over the majority of your teams in stats and he hasn't even hit his half-way mark like a massive amount of them have. Anyways, Heath 19->20/2 and Lowen 20/3->20/5. Now this comparison you are going to see Heath rape Lowen not only because of his promotion gains, but because Legault is coming to this chapter and they should have something like a B by now. Harken is just showing up for Lowen, and they definitely aren't gaining any support levels yet. Heath, B Legault, B Kent 21.15 Mt, 47.4 Hit, 14.38 Crt, 16.8 AS | 47.2 HP, 19.45 Def, 9.55 Res, 63.4 Eva Lowen, B Eliwood 16.6 Mt, 37.2 Hit, 11.4 Crt, 14.6 AS | 44.8 HP, 18.8 Def, 8.6 Res, 53.2 Eva raep Well lets see. Offensively Heath wins in everything and Lowen wins in nothing, even WTA against Lance users doesn't pull him ahead. Oh, but defensively, well, Heath wins in everything and Lowen wins in nothing, and the WTA against Lance users does help him a bit, but Heath is still better overall. Every. Single. Battle. Parameter. Heath. Wins. There's not even argument to this, Heath just wins.
Well Heath actually has more resistance than Lowen, so he's definitely doing better here. And because Lowen isn't exactly gaining on him in stats, as seen by endgame stats, we can tell that Heath is sure as hell winning here. Ohhh, and do you know what you get in this chapter? Yeah yeah, that's right, the Delphi shield.
Yeah, she'll probably be aiming at people with worse Res though, like Lowen. Indeed he has a massive advantage over other units because of his ability to go over water. He can choose whichever enemy he wants to kill, and even kills ones that other units on your team wouldn't be able to h4xing up your experience rating still. Heath is insane at combat already so there's no reason to stop him from killing off all those hard units.
What? Yeah sure Lowen is probably beating him in Def, but Heath still has more HP and isn't dying. However, Heath is still h4xing it up with his offense so he's actually killing shit better helping out your combat ranking. He can take out all them swordsmen and bow users pretty easily with his recently discovered Delphi Shield. Lowen just sticks with the pack, even moreso because he's supporting Harken right now. Ohwellz.
What? No. gtfo Lowen. Eliwood + Your thief is what goes in this chapter. Eliwood goes in because of A support with Hector and they both need the experience, and then your thief to steal and pick the tons of things in this chapter. So our units aren't getting fielded here, and we can just move on to the next chapter.
Oh is this one of those times I finish your sentence for you and we giggle about whatever dirty word I chose? How about the word "nothing", yeah, that sounds dirty. Tee-hee-hee. Ok kid, Heath does not have a weakness against bows right now, and his Def stat is about equal to Lowen's while he has more HP, so Lowen is phailing here. Magic users? Heath has the higher Res stat w/supports, so Heath is winning yet again. Yeah, it probably looks scary for a rider from afar, but this is Heath, HEATH, he's definitely better than that loser Lowen, and the stats only back that up.
Finally gets the upper hand? He's had the upper hand since the desert chapter. I think you're forgetting that Lowen promotes on chapter 24 or something. And yeah, there are no enemies, but Heath is winning so wutevr.
Heath does fine against Bows and Magic. Stop bringing that up. |: Warrior is new, though, and I assume the reason is that they use axes. Well, Heath has swords. ggnore
It's a small map with heroes and generals if I remember correctly. You're bringing Hector, some good staff user, and a high str unit with good hit. Heyyy, that's like either Heath or Raven, right? Well, Heath has more Str, and still has enough AS to double generals with the Heavy Lance so he's coming. Raven can kill the generals just fine too, but Heath is better against the Heroes, so Heath is the superior choice most likely. Even if you have a better Raven than you do a Heath, at least Heath is up there in the running for coming every now and then, Lowen is nowhere to be found.
Stats say differently. They show Heath dominating Lowen. If Heath isn't a monster, Lowen is but merely a mouse.
Heath gets 5 Res from supports. Lowen? Well he gets 1. Closing Points: -Heath has a better joining situation -Heath has better statistics for the most part -Heath's wayyy cooler meaning that he's more likely to be used on a non-ranked run and is more likely to gain experience when choosing who kills -Heath rides a wyvern -Heath riding a wyvern means that he has massive mobility over rivers, sand, and mountains -Lowen has more solid supports, even though Heath can still get full supports borrrinnngzzz >_> |
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.:FES:. Formerly: Juggernaut, FireBane 100% of BwdYetis don't care about your percentages. | |
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| +Reaver | Jul 22 2007, 09:39 AM Post #7 |
Troll
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DH wins by timeout. |
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5:39 AM Nov 28
