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| CATS vs Oath | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 9 2007, 10:15 PM (282 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Jul 9 2007, 10:15 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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GL kiddo 
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 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| C475_1337 | Jul 9 2007, 11:46 PM Post #2 |
One serious d00d
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Okay, let me start off by saying that Kent is Rick Astley. That’s right. “Kent” is already winning by default on account of his maxed-out awesomeness stat. He could just rickroll Nergal and end the game instantly at any time, but he is merciful enough to choose not to do so until the last second, so that Eliwuss can think he’s the one that stops Nergal. But even within the illusion that “Kent” is just another unit on your team, he’s still helping more than Eliwood. Assuming you use four units from Lyn’s Mode, then Kent comes out of that deal around LvL 9, except that you have to abuse Nils for awhile to get him to LvL 7 so you can have 19xx, and you can Lundgren abuse your other guyz during that time. So add on two more levels to Kent, and he’s LvL 11 in Chapter 16. Eliwood is LvL 1 in Chapter 12. Eliwood would have to gain about 2 levels per chapter to be on Kent’s level in Chapter 16, and since he is not in any way good during the time that he’s there and Kent isn’t, that most likely isn’t happening. If pplz usually all gained 2 levels per chapter then folks would start promoting around Dragon’s Gate, and that’s most definitely not what happens. Soez: 7/0 Pansywood 22.8 Hp 7.7 Str 8.0 Skl 9.4 Spd 9.7 Luck 6.8 Def 2.1 Res 7 Con 11/0 Rick Astley 28.5 Hp 10.0 Str 11.0 Skl 11.5 Spd 4.0 Luck 7.5 Def 3.5 Res 9 Con So yeah, Rick is already winning in every single stat except Luck. h4x imo. Add onto that the fact that the horse-riding monster has two weapons types, one being lances, which are better than Eliwood’s Swords (more Mt + 1-2 Range = w1n), has two more move, and can move after actions, and what do you get? You get Eliwuss crying in a corner cause Kent pwned him and his mother and then raped them both with a diamond-tipped drill.  Now let’s assume that Rick is even more merciful to Eliwood, and restrains himself, so that that level lead goes away. 15/0 Pansywood 29.2 Hp 11.3 Str 12.0 Skl 12.6 Spd 13.3 Luck 9.2 Def 4.9 Res 7 Con 15/0 Rick Astley 31.9 Hp 11.6 Str 13.0 Skl 13.3 Spd 4.8 Luck 8.5 Def 4.5 Res 9 Con 2 Atk(lol lances) + 1 Spd + 2 Con + ranged counter = better offense 2 Hp about = 1 Def Lances (+1 Atk/+1 Def/+15 Avo vs enemy Swords and Lances) + Mobility (helps to end the turn on a forest or something) + 1-2 range (discourage magic from attacking him and such) >> 7 Avo. Rick has the better defense as well. So Kent is winning even when he goes easy on Eliwood? Indeed. Promotion doesn’t help the Wood much. He now has 2 weapons and is mounted himself, but Kent still has a 1 move lead and now has all 3 weapons, and probably has a small level lead again due to Eliwood’s promo items coming late. And, when Lyn is used, Eliwood’s promotion is messing with her. You either have to make Lyn alot worse as a direct result of Eliwood promoting before her, which is still a negative for Eliwood, or make Eliwood himself alot worse by promoting him second. When Eliwood promotes uberlate liek that, Kent 0wnz him terribly for several chapters where Eliwood is at 20/0 gaining no Exp, having no mobility and sucking at fighting while Kent is running around promoted owning everything with his 3 move lead + 2 extra weapons + mounted movement + actually gaining exp + better stats. Then when Eliwood finally promotes, he’s significantly underlevelled, and so he’s still doing worse. If Lyn’s used but Eliwood promotes first, it’s about the same, since Eliwood himself doesn’t get worse but in exchange another unit gets much much worse. Kent also is helping the LHM Rank so you get a better Gem when Lyn rejoins. Eliwood on the other hand is eating a promo item that's worth twice as many smackers as Kent's Knight Crest. Eliwuss is using more money and he's not even better at anything else in exchange. Damn. Kent has better mobility and more weapons for the entire game, and doesn’t have to rape Lyn every now and then in order to have a decent promotion. Eliwood has no answer to that. If he had much better stats it might be arguable that he’s better anyway, but his stats are not better at all. If anything Kent will generally have the better stats. And if that’s not enough, Kent is Rick Astley 
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| Oath | Jul 10 2007, 01:46 AM Post #3 |
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Thx
who is Rick Astley? 
Eliwood is actually good while Kent is not there. With the abundance of axe users in the earlygame, Eliwood has no problems levelling at all.
You neglected to mention supports. Eliwood will most likely have a B with Hector and maybe a C with Lowen. Eliwood 7/0 | B Hector, C Lowen | w/ Rapier Atk: 16 AS: 9 Def: 8 Evd: 42 Kent 11/0 w/ Iron Lance Atk: 17 AS: 11 Def: 7 Evd: 26 Pretty good for Eliwood considering Kent had 4 levels on him. Only losing out in 2 Atk Spd.
Yes, he has WTA. I'll give you that. However, when Eliwood promotes, he not only gets a mount but Lances as well.
Again no supports? Its prolly cause Kent has to support with the crappy wind affinity. You didn't really specify what chapter, so let's assume they've both maxed out supports since they're rather fast. Eliwood 15/0 | A Hector, B Lowen | w/ Steel Sword Atk: 22 AS: 9 Def: 13 Evd: 56 Kent 15/0 | A Sain, B Lyn | w/ Steel Lance Atk: 26 AS: 9 Def: 10 Evd: 34 mmhm. I'll take 22 Evd + 3 Def > 4 Atk
Sure, 3 weapon types is great and all, but 2 weapon types is sufficient enough. Either way they're both getting WTA. 1 Mov is negligible. How does promoting Lyn second hurt Eliwood? They're not supporting. Either way, the one that promotes second will be worse off but it doesn't really effect the one that promotes first. Plus, Lyn's promotion isn't as bountiful as Eliwood's. Sure she gets bows, but killing a Wyvern once per turn is not amazing me. Whereas Eliwood gets a horse, partial WTA, + 2 Con, + 4 HP. Lyn's only noteworthy bonuses are bows and 5 Res. Looks like Eliwood is promoting first.
The first Knight Crest is going to Oswin. The first Knight Crest is pretty hard to get in Chapter 17. Marcus would have to go straight for the thief at the top of the map and kill it. On the way, enemies would attack and he would most likely kill them soaking up EXP along the way. If a huge loss of potential exp is worth it, then fine; Kent would get the next Knight Crest in 21. Thus giving Kent 5 chapters of potential leveling over Eliwood. Most units at this point are still unpromoted and Kent will not be getting much EXP at all. If he's not soloing the map he'd get about 3-4 levels worth. Not a horribly big level lead. If the KC isn't obtained in 17, he could use the Earth Seal in 24 only giving himself maybe 2 levels on Eliwood.
Because every other unit in LHM can't help the ranks? I think Matthew can accomplish that on his own. Well, when Matthew helps Lyn get the White Gem, its nullified. XD Well, considering he helps one of the best units in the entire game. Not to mention he's required in certain chapters and practically gains pally utility upon promotion I'd say that he's worth the money to promote.
Nope not the entire game. Kent will have better stats? Lawl. 20/15 Eliwood HP - 48.4 Str - 21.8 Skl - 21.4 Spd - 21.0 Def - 15.9 Res - 14.5 Luk -21.8 Con - 9 20/15 Kent HP - 50.0 Str - 20.1 Skl - 23.2 Spd - 22.2 Def - 15.2 Res - 10.2 Luk - 8.6 Con - 11 Defensively, Kent is going to be crap. His Evd will always be low due to his crap luck stat. Eliwood will always be more durable with supports, actually has a good evd stat and def stat. Kent can have all the offense over Eliwood he wants but its pointless if he goes down fighting. Great support affinity + Great supports + Good promotion gain + Good offense + great durability + Partial WTA Control > A Replaceable Pally with crap support options, 1 more mov, and 1 more weapon. |
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| C475_1337 | Jul 10 2007, 11:43 AM Post #4 |
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One serious d00d
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 Rick Astley is your god.
No, he's not good. That would be Marcus, Oswin, Hector, Guy, etc. He's just not bad either. Merely average.
wtf? That much already? These are early chapters so you're finishing 10 turns at most, and Eliwood obviously can't be building support on every turn--like half of the turns if he's damn lucky. Killing enemies is more important than building supports; if it's a choice between Eliwood poking something with his sword or staying next to Hector, he's gonna go poke something. Plus, Eliwood himself has little flexibility in his movement and attack range. Only 5 move, no move after actions, no 2 range. And Rapier? As his standard equip? Hells no. I hope you're not dumb enough to have him stabbing everything with that. It definitely should be saved for enemies it's actually effective against. Regardless, let's assume Rick goes easy on him yet again, and he gets those supportz somehow. Now, unfortunately for Pansyface, there's no way he's in range of both support partners at all times. More likely he's only in range of one of them; the times he's in range of both are about cancelled by the times he is in range of neither. So let's try again: Phail Incarnate 7/0 | B Hector or C Lowen | w/ Iron Sword--Steel Sword Hp: 23 (clever, your comparison left out Hp--prolly because Eliwood has less of it) Atk: 13--16 AS: 9--6 Def: 9 or 7 Evd: 37--31 or 32--26 Rick Astley 11/0 w/ Iron Lance--Steel Sword--Steel Lance Hp: 28.5 Atk: 17--18--20 AS: 11--10--7 Def: 7.5 (you forgot the .5, nub; and since Eliwood's actual Def average for LvL 7 is 6.8, that means Kent has 1 more inherent Def) Evd: 26--24--18 Well Kent pretty clearly smashes him in offense. Moar Atk and moar Spd. What moar could you ask foar? And against enemy Lances or Swords, add on another 1 Atk. Even against the crap Rapier is effective against, Eliwood is barely doing any if at all better: 14 Mt (Rapier) - 1 WTD (Knights and Cavs tend to have Lances) = 13 Mt 10 Mt (Steel Lance doubles Knights) + 1 Str lead = 11 Mt A 4 damage lead against Knights. Amazing. Then against Cavaliers, Astley is more likely to actually double, and even if he doesn't, only does 2 less damage from a Steel Lance strike than Eliwood w/ Rapier. Then on top of that, Kent is doing better against the counters from both--WTD reduces Woody's Avo to 22 or 17, which isn't any better than Kent's, and then Kent beats him in Hp (by 6; 28.5 - 22.8 = 5.7), so Kent is better off. And Kent beats his offense vs everything else by more than Eliwood is winning against these two enemies. For the rest, WT again kills Eliwood's Avo lead against enemy Swords, and Kent has 1-2 range so Bows and Magic won't even want to attack him. So Eliwood is only more durable against enemy Axes, if even that, while Kent is doing better against the rest? Indeed. Also remember that Kent can move after actions and can hop into a forest or fort from up to 4 squares away, while Eliwood can only do so from 3 squares away. And this is all if Eliwood is pampered up abit. Little baby needs some extra help, and even then, still loses.
And? This isn't about when Eliwood promotes. This is about when Kent joins, and at that point Eliwood is most definitely not promoted. Kent's WT control makes him significantly better against enemy Swords and Lances, and his 1-2 range lets him counter Bows and Magic, which is also pretty significant.
wtf Steel? Why are they running around with Steel? Take off the Steel and Kent wins in AS by 1. Also you once again forgot Hp, where Kent wins by 2. Now, some stuffz: The 22 Avo and 3 Def becomes 7 Avo and 2 Def against Swords or Lances. Kent also can attack melee enemies without getting countered if he needs to (Javelin FTW), while Eliwood is always having to take their counter. 1-2 range causes ranged enemies to look the other way; Kent has that, Eliwuss doesn't. Kent's mobility and Javelin use also makes it easier for him to end the turn on defensive terrain or in range of his supports. And again, Kent has +2 Hp. In the face of all this it's actually rather questionable as to who has the durability lead. On the other hand, there's no question of who has the better offense. More weapons, more Atk, more Spd, more Con--who has those things? That's right, you guessed it. Rick fucking Astley. Also, Kent's supports are helping his partners moar. Pansywood's giving better bonuses but his two supporters are tanks who don't even need extra Def or Avo much. Sain and Lyn quite appreciate Kent's bonuses, though. Hector/Lowen are also slow so extra Atk isn't helping them as much as it does Sain and Lyn (doubling more often = putting higher Atk to better use; +1 Atk = +2 Dmg if you DA). Plus, Kent can actually be in range of his to give them the bonuses more often. He's got more move, move after actions, and 1-2 range. Kent's mobility is also useful in and of itself, separate from his offense or defense; he can charge across the map to save a village or something, Eliwood could try the same thing, but he'd be worse at it. And, again, this is all assuming Rick had pity on Eliwood and allowed him to close the level gap. In reality Rick is winning by even more than this.
Sufficient enough? We're not trying to determine whether or not these units are "sufficient enough." We're trying to determine which one is better, and 3 weapons > 2 weapons. Axes = 1 Atk lead + cheapest weapons + better countering of enemy Hand Axe/Javelin + 15 Avo/1 Def/1 more Atk against enemy Lances. And no, 1 Mov is most definitely not negligible. Not earth-shaking or anything, but it is indeed there. If you're rushing forward in BBD, and it takes Kent 4 turns to reach the enemies, then by the time he gets there he's 4 squares ahead of Eliwood. That gives him a much wider range of targets, possibly a pillar to sit on which Eliwood can't reach, etc.
Promoting Lyn second doesn't hurt Eliwood in a direct sense. The problem is that Eliwood is directly hurting Lyn by taking her promo item. The only way that Eliwood can promote early is to force Lyn to promote late. There's no other way. Lyn promoting late is a direct consequence of Eliwood promoting early.
From weapons, Eliwood gets +2 Atk vs everything but Axes and 1-2 range; Lyn gets +1 Atk against everything but Fliers (where she gets, liek, +11) and a better 2 range offense (Bows > Javelin). In promo gains, it's actually quite debatable. Eliwood gets 1 more Hp, Spd and Con, but Lyn gets 2 more Def and Res. Considering that Lyn's Atk is less and her durability is less, she needs the extra Atk and defense more than Eliwood. The only thing Eliwood needs more than Lyn is Spd, and he still doesn't need that as much as Lyn needs Atk and Def. If anything I'm promoting Lyn first. So no, when Eliwood and Lyn are both played, Eliwood is not going to promote first every time. Even if he did it would still be a big disadvantage for him; the team overall gets hurt just as much, Lyn getting raped isn't any better than Eliwood getting raped.
It's probably 4 levels on average. 20/1 Master of Disaster (A Hector, B Lowen) w/ Steel Sword--Iron Lance--Javelin Hp: 37 Atk: 26.5--25.5--24.5 AS: 15--16--14 Def: 16 Avo: 70-72-68 20/5 Rick Astley (A Sain, B Lyn) w/ Steel Sword/Iron Axe--Hand Axe Hp: 41.5 Atk: 29--28 AS: 18--17 Def: 15 Avo: 55--53 Anywhere from 3-5 Atk lead and 2-3 AS lead for Rick. Better offense, no contest. Eliwood's defense is more, no denying that. So how do we determine which is better, the offense or the defense? Quite simple, really. Eliwuss's defense is all coming from supportz; without supports Eliwood has 4 Avo vs Kent's 4 Hp/1 Def, which would actually be a win for Kent. On the other hand, Kent is still winning offense even with supports taken off. 1 Str lead + 3 Spd lead + 2 Con lead + Axes. When the overall stats are even, the less support-dependent unit is the winner; stats possessed inherently > stats from supports, because the former are always there no matter what. Kent doesn't need people holding his hand in order to w1n; Pansywood does. Also remember that Kent's Axes give +1 Def/+15 Avo vs enemy Lances, and he has teh 1 Move. So we've already established that Kent was winning for the entire time before promotion. And now it looks like he's still winning even after promotion? Indeed. However, there is something we haven't covered yet. What about the time in between, when Kent is promoted and Eliwood isn't? 20/3 Rick Astley (A Sain, B Lyn) w/ Steel Sword/Iron Axe--Hand Axe Hp: 40 Atk: 28--27 AS: 17--16 Def: 14 Avo: 53--51 20/0 Eliwuss (A Hector, B Lowen) w/ Iron Sword--Steel Sword Hp: 33 Atk: 21.5--24.5 AS: 15--12 Def: 15 Avo: 70--64 Okay, first, Kent's AS lead is actually 3 points. 17.4 (Kent) - 14.6 (Eliwood) = 2.8. Also we can round Eliwood's Atk values down due to Kent averaging 15.4 Str (15 Str was assumed for calculating Kent's Atk values). So anyway. Either a 7 Atk lead and a 2 AS lead, or a 4 Atk lead and a 4 AS lead. Then add on another 1 Atk against Swords and 2 Atk against Lances. Kent also has more Steel options available to him (he can go Steel Lance and tie Eliwood in AS while widening the Atk gap even further). Can you say rape? Then for the defense, Kent's mobility is now even more than it was before he promoted, and his weapons are helping him even more (now he gets a massive +2 Def/+30 Avo over Eliwood vs enemy Lances). And Eliwood's stat leads are less than before (only 17-11 Avo and 1 Def vs 7 Hp), and his lead in defensive stats is still entirely support-dependent. Kent takes this cake too, no problem. Plus, Kent actually gains Exp. Eliwood doesn't. So you don't even want Eliwood to be fighting unless absolutely necessary. What I said earlier about Kent's mobility being useful for things other than pure fighting, and his supports helping others more, are also even more true now than they were before. Kent is completely pwnzoring Eliwood for this period of time. Eliwood never has a period of time where's pwnzoring Kent, now, does he? Point: Rick Astley.
No, because Eliwood isn't in LHM and therefore can't possibly help the LHM ranks. While we're on the subject, some other fun facts about LHM. There's a Knight Crest there. The goal here is to S Rank HHM, not LHM, so it doesn't matter if you use that Knight Crest before LHM is over. If you focus your Lundgren abuse on Kent then promote him with the Knight Crest, you get a unit back in Ch. 16 that looks like this: 14/1 Rick Astley 33.0 Hp 12.2 Str 13.5 Skl 13.9 Spd 4.6 Luck 10.2 Def 5.2 Res 11 Con Remember Marcus and all that shiz about how ridiculously useful he is? This Kent is beating Marcus's bases in Hp and Spd, tying in Def, and losing in Str and Luck. Overall, they're about even. So basically, you just got a Marcus with a slightly different build and much better growths; Marcus is already incredibly useful, and Kent is going to be even better than that due to actually gaining stats when he levels. Instant win. You might complain, "but wtf, that wtfraepz the LHM Funds rank, then no Blue or White Gem for jU!" Yeah, but guess what? Promoting Kent in LHM means you don't have to promote him in the main story. That adds 10K in HHM, while you're only losing 2.5 to 7.5K from getting the lesser Gem. So this tactic actually produces a net gain to the HHM Funds Rank. Even moar w1n. Now, is this going to happen every time? No, ofcourse not. But it's an option Kent has and Eliwood doesn't. Point to the big Rick. Also, there's an Angelic Robe and an Energy Ring in LHM which pplz from the main story can't use. You could argue that Kent isn't likely to get either of these items, but it doesn't matter; the fact is that he can get them, while it is impossible for Eliwood to use them.
Speaking of promotion cost. That's another thing. You have about 19K to spend on each unit after their promo item. Eliwood's promo item costs 10K over the normal amount, so that's 9K left for him. But wait, there's more. His Rapier is a whopping 6K, so now he only has 3000G left. Don't stop yet though, there's even more: Kent's basic weapons are cheaper. Let's just say that saves liek 1000G over the course of the game. So Eliwood only has 2000G left to spend? That might not even be enough for basic weapons and such. Nevermind trying to use Killer/Silver/Reaver/Slayer etc. Kent on the other hand has the full 19000G and can fling uber weapons around all day long if he wants. And all night long too. If Eliwood tries to use them as much as Kent does, then he goes over that 19K limit, and you have to restrict someone else's use of expensive weapons to compensate for Eliwood using more than his share of the money. Yeah, nice work Eliwood, making other people worse so you can try to get better. Selfish bastard.
So many "great's" and "good's" you're using to describe Eliwood. wtf, man. The only thing he's "great" at is whining to Hector and Lowen to help him so he can try to be as good as Rick Astley, and the only thing he's "good" at is sucking dick like a little fag (both literally and figuratively). And lol, Replaceable. Any fighting unit can be replaced with another fighting unit. Yeah, that includes Eliwood. The word "Replaceable" means about as much as my foot in this debaet. And this whole thing is even assuming Rick Astley doesn't just rickroll Eliwood's ass into oblivion. We're doing alot of favors to Eliwood here and he's still phailing. --Kent beats Eliwood in offense for the entire game. --The defense goes back and forth, but even when Eliwood is winning it, he's depending on his supports to do so. Kent's constant offense win gets even bigger with supports, but it's still there even without them. --Kent always has more mobility than Eliwood. --Kent always has more weapons than Eliwood. --For part of the game Kent has 1-2 range and Eliwood does not, and then even for the other part, Kent's 1-2 range is better. --Kent's supports are helping his partners more than Eliwood's supports are helping his. --Kent helps the LHM rank. Pansywood does not. Kent also has access to LHM stat boosters which Eliwuss doesn't. --Kent actually makes Lyn more of a woman and a better fighter through being her best support option, while Eliwood actually makes her worse, being forced to rape her occasionally or endure getting raped himself. --Kent saves alot more money than Eliwood, and thus, has alot more freedom to spam awesome weapons and w1n in offense even more. --Kent has more Aid than Eliwood. If you need any rescuing done, whether to move someone around or to save their ass, Kent is better at it. --Kent can promote in LHM and become Marcus Mk II. Eliwood cannot. --Last but not least: Kent is Rick Astley, bitch. GG d00d |
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| +Ema Skye | Jul 12 2007, 03:00 PM Post #5 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Oath forfeits. |
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MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH
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3:21 PM Nov 24
