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| Denning vs. Reaver; Denning opens. | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 9 2007, 10:16 PM (292 Views) | |
| +Reaver | Jul 9 2007, 10:16 PM Post #1 |
Troll
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Each debater has three posts, use them wisely. (Dennig has Eliwood, Reaver has Guy) |
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| Denning | Jul 11 2007, 08:45 AM Post #2 |
 
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I’ll start off with an early game stat comparison. It would be better to compare Eliwood and Guy for 13x as opposed to 13; Guy joins late in the chapter as it is. In that case, let’s put Eliwood at level five. HHM bonuses have been added to Guy’s stats. Eliwood (C Hector): HP: 21.2 ±0.8 STR: 6.8 ±1.0 SKL: 7.0 ±1.0 SPD: 8.6 ±1.0 DEF: 6.2 ±0.9 RES: 1.4 ±1.0 LCK: 8.8 ±1.0 CON: 7 Guy: HP: 24.5 ±0.0 STR: 7.75 ±0.0 SKL: 13.0 ±0.0 SPD: 13.0 ±0.0 DEF: 5.75 ±0.0 RES: 1.0 ±0.0 LCK: 5.0 ±0.0 CON: 5 Whoa, looks like Eliwood is outdone, right? I can’t lie; the statistics shows that Guy has far better offense, to say the least. I’d say that Eliwood is doing a bit better on defense, however; enemies won’t be doubling him at this point, and he gets +1 to DEF/RES thanks to his C support with Hector, and +5 more to EVA. Guy, supportless at this point, is only relying on his poor defense and his avoid. Eliwood’s defenses are clearly better, and so he’ll be taking hits easier. Earlygame utility, Eliwood wins. Guy starts with a pretty raep weapon in the Killing Edge, doesn’t he? It’s too bad that abusing it in the early game, especially when Guy is doubling things anyway, will make it useless for you later. The Rapier has twice as many uses as the Killing Edge. So, you’ll probably be giving Guy the iron sword, and the iron sword alone. Eliwood gets the rapier and an iron sword. The main thing that makes Eliwood > Guy in the early game is the rapier in itself. It’s a good weapon for the nomads in 13x, and it’s definitely great for False Friends, Talons Alight, and Noble Lady of Caelin. Eliwood won’t be missing at all since the rapier is even more accurate than the iron sword, and he’s obviously getting bonus damage against the common enemies, nomads and cavaliers. So, Eliwood only needs two attacks to kill those enemies (even the lance-wielding cavaliers in some cases), whereas Guy with an iron sword would need a few more rounds to kill those enemies, even with a double attack. Eliwood > Guy for earlygame. Now I’ll take a look at Guy at level 20. Guy: 33.8 ±1.8 11.1 ±1.9 18.9 ±1.4 19.9 ±0.3 7.5 ±1.5 4.2 ±1.8 12.7 ±2.1 5 Congratulations, Guy made it to level 20/--. You’ll probably be dying to use that first Hero Crest on Guy, right? Wrong. Raven wants that crest before Guy does. At this point, Guy will have a C support with Matthew, and maybe one with Priscilla, although she’d probably like to triangle with Raven/Lucius more. The C with Matthew gives +1 to Atk, which helps his poor STR a bit I guess, but not by much to make a major difference. Guy will likely no doubt have SPD capped, and probably SKL, too. But, let’s look at Raven, for a second. Raven (C Lucius, C Priscilla) : 37.7 ±1.4 16.2 ±1.9 17.0 ±1.8 19.1 ±1.2 8.8 ±1.7 3.2 ±1.4 7.2 ±1.8 8 Raven shatters Guy in overall offense (he probably has Spd capped, too; it doesn’t make much of a difference, however); his STR is far higher, and Raven gets a grand total of +1 to Atk from the Priscilla/Lucius supports. That just makes Raven even stronger, and Raven’s massive HP boost in HHM pushes him even farther ahead of Guy in overall durability; not to mention that Raven even has better DEF. After promotion, there’s truly no real incentive to promote Guy before Raven since Raven gains axes upon promotion, already pushing Raven’s offense above Guy’s. Now, Eliwood’s competing with Lyn for the first heaven seal, right? Wrong. Eliwood (A Hector, B Lowen) HP: 33.2 ±1.7 STR: 13.5 ±2.2 SKL: 14.5 ±2.2 SPD: 14.6 ±2.1 DEF: 10.7 ±2.0 RES: 6.6 ±2.1 LCK: 15.6 ±2.2 CON: 7 Lyn: HP: 29.3 ±2.0 STR: 11.6 ±2.1SKL: 18.1 ±1.8 SPD:19.3 ±1.1 DEF: 5.8 ±1.7 RES: 5.7 ±2.0 LCK: 15.4 ±2.2 CON: 5 Lyn has Eliwood in SKL and SPD. But who cares, right? SKL isn’t that much necessary since swords are the most accurate of the weapons, and SPD is a little bit better of an advantage, although it’s still relatively minor seeing as both should be doubling. Meanwhile, Eliwood’s defenses shatter Lyn’s completely; he gets +3 to DEF and RES from his A support with Hector, which takes his already high defensive lead over Lyn through the roof. B Lowen gives him an additional +1 to DEF, so that’s 14 DEF and 10 RES on point, which is nice. Eliwood also gets +15 EVA from the A with Hector; even more of a defensive lead. He also gets +15 CEV from the support. Not the most useful bonus, but I guess it could come in handy sometimes. The next bonus is 7.5 to CRT; not a pining factor all the time, but what the fuck, he’s got it. Unfortunately, he gets nothing at all to hit, but it doesn’t mean much; he’ll be hitting rather often either way. The reason Lyn has no supports is because, well, no one wants her. Since Eliwood is the far better option for the heaven seal, she promotes late as it is. Let’s look at her options. Florina: Probably her best option in terms of activation time, but the support is impractical. Florina will be using her airborne abilities rather often in HHM, and she can’t do that if she has to hang back with Lyn all the time. Supporting Lyn with Florina is just pulling Florina into the dirt with Lyn. Rath: lol, late join, under leveled Kent: He’ll be triangling with Sain/Fiora, so no. Wil: lol Hector: Hector has A Eliwood right now, and maybe B Oswin (he will later if he doesn’t have it now, though), so forget it. Wallace: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahaha Eliwood: Already has A Hec/B Lowen. So yeah, we can say that Lyn’s supports don’t exist. They’re either impractical (Florina), low-tier garbage (Wil), late joiners (Rath), taken by better units (Kent, Hector, Eliwood), or they just don’t exist (Wallace; you won’t underlevel your lords for that piece of garbage). Eliwood > Lyn for Heaven Seal usage, and for late game use altogether. Lyn just sucks. Lances > Bows, anyway. But back to the debate at hand, Eliwood > Guy for mid-to-late game usage, as far as that goes. Guy probably won’t be seeing much of combat since Matthew is at level 20 by now, and that means you're just risking the EXP rating (that Matthew probably brought up, no less) by having Matthew go into combat with Guy. Guy gets some nice bonuses from that support (although he doesn’t get shit to DEF), but it’s just not enough to push his usefulness over that of Eliwood’s. Eliwood is better for tactics since he now has a horse and is clearing out enemies faster, and he’s better in overall combat since he’s using two weapons as opposed to one. Since the enemies are still rather slow at this point in the game, Eliwood is probably doing combat some better justice, too, since his offense is superior to that of Guy’s, seeing as he gets +4.5 Atk from his supports with Hector and Lowen. raep Guy also won’t be seeing much combat in the chapters that he just has to link arms with Matthew, because while Matthew is going for chests, Guy will have to go, too, if he wants the bonuses. The chests aren’t always overmanned, if severly overmanned at all, so Guy won’t be seeing much combat if he has to go to them with Matthew. Since Eliwood’s options don’t have any major uses such as that (Fliers > Paladins when it comes to most casual tasks later in the game, anyway), it is reasonable to say that Eliwood will be seeing combat more often than Guy will. Endgame comparison. Eliwood 20/20 (A Hector, B Lowen) HP: 52.4 ±2.5 STR: 23.8 ±2.6 SKL: 23.5 ±2.4 SPD: 22.4 ±2.0 DEF: 17.4 ±2.8 RES: 16.3 ±2.9 LCK: 24.1 ±3.0 CON: 9 Guy 20/20 (A Matthew) HP: 53.0 ±2.6 STR: 18.8 ±2.7 SKL: 27.7 ±1.8 SPD: 29.9 ±0.3 DEF: 12.4 ±2.1 RES: 10.0 ±2.6 LCK: 21.2 ±3.0 CON: 6 Assuming that endgame is the final chapter (or if you want to speak generally; either way), Eliwood completely outdoes Guy here, too. Eliwood is the more formidable unit since he gets awesome DEF boosts from his supports, and his offense is better, since he’s also getting more ATK. Generally speaking Guy gets +3 Atk from his support with Matthew, which is nice for Guy‘s offense, but since bringing Matthew in the final chapter is just dumb, assuming that in the model play through that he doesn’t promote, Guy gets nothing. Nothing at all. In the raw, Eliwood beats Guy. In supports, Eliwood rapes Guy. That’s it for my mediocre opener. Here’s to a good debate, Reaver. |
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| +Reaver | Jul 11 2007, 11:06 AM Post #3 |
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Troll
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The averages differ in DEF by .45. If applied to a battle, Guy would have 6 DEF and Eliwood would have 6 DEF + C Support with Hector. 1 DEF totally beats out 3 HP, each would need to be able to take four hits for that DEF advantage to show itself. Guy has a massive offense lead because he's guaranteed to double everything, has the Killing Edge to triple his damage, and if he needs an Iron Sword he still has 13 MT to Eliwood's 11. Eliwood's rapier ties it up at 13 MT, but Guy is still doubling much much more. I'd probably give Guy the Iron Sword too and use the Killing Edge like you use the rapier, situationally. You can't just say that Guy can only use one weapon because his other is good but Eliwood can use his good weapon as well as another weapon, especially when the rapier is almost four times as expensive as the Killing Edge :richie: . Guy with the Killing Edge >>>> Eliwood with the rapier. Triple damage on any enemy > 1.5 damage on selected enemies... Guy shatters Eliwood at the beginning with the ability to take down enemies that only Marcus might stand a chance against because of his high AS and his Killing Edge. You can't argue with that offensive prowess. Guy gives Priscilla EVA, Lucius doesn't. Priscilla most wants EVA, and when Lucius and Guy are the same save one bonus, .5 DEF vs. 2.5 EVA, Guy wins out because of the EVA. Guy will have Matthew A Priscilla B. Giving each of our characters 1.33 levels per chapter, Guy needs about 13 Chapters to reach 20/0 and Eliwood needs about 11 to promote. 13 chapters later including 19xx lands him on Chapter 22, right after your second Hero Crest is available. Even at that, Raven isn't going to be ready to promote until that same time, promotion means nothing for them. However, this leads me into another side-tangent. Let's see Eliwood and Guy at the Dragon's Gate (Eliwood at 20/o with Hector A B Lowen) and Guy 18/0 (Matthew A, Priscilla B]: Guy: 18/0 A Matthew B Priscilla HP: 35.7 STR: 12.25 SKL: 20 (Capped) SPD: 20 (Capped) DEF: 7.95 DEF RES: 4.8 RES LUK: 11.8 Eliwood: 20/0 A Hector B Lowen HP: 33.2 STR: 13.5 SKL: 14.5 SPD: 14.6 DEF:10.7 RES: 6.6 LUK: 15.6 CON: 7 Guy with the Iron Sword has 22 MT, 64 AVD, and 35 Critical. Eliwood with the Iron Sword has 22 MT, 62 AVD, and 12 CRT. (Note: averages rounded to stats to fit formulas, supports factored in) Guy has it. Defensively he's dodging just as well as Eliwood, he's got more HP, and offensively Guy has astounding CRT and he isn't even promoted! Guy dodging equally and outdamaging Eliwood 1/3 times and matching him the rest makes him leaps and bounds ahead of Eliwood. If Guy is ahead of Eliwood now, he's going to shatter him up until Eliwood promotes and even at that, Guy will have such a massive level lead Eliwood might not be able to compete. If Guy promotes before Chapter 22, then he has five chapters (6.65 levels at 1.33 levels per chapter) more than Eliwood under his belt where he is more useful. Guy is way ahead of Eliwood in the Midgame. Onto your arguments (I assumed that Raven > Guy and that Eliwood gets the first Heaven seal are correct, only the second one applies to this debate since Raven > Eliwood too). Matthew hit 20/0 long ago and now just sits behind the backlines and waits for his opportunities to steal and go after chests. He'll be within range of Guy to give him the benefits but still behind your tanks so that he doesn't get mauled. If you're worried about Matthew going off by himself, most chapters Matthew needs to steal from enemies and Guy can glady go headlong into enemies. He's also at 20/1 at chapter 26. Raep. Guy will be at 20/6.65 (lol 65 EXP) at this time and, for the next chapters, we'll change Eliwood's EXP gains to 1.5 levels per chapter to depict how he catches up because he's so weak and puny and gets more EXP. Rofl. They aren't going to both hit 20/20, especially not Eliwood after a late promotion. Guy at 20/6.65 and Eliwood at 20/1, using the modified EXP formula for Eliwood, leaves them at 9 chapters to level until Light. Eliwood gains 13.5 levels, putting him at 20/14, and Guy gains 11.97 levels, putting him at 20/18. These are the final chapter comparisons, let's compare shall we? Guy: 20/18 A Matthew B Priscilla HP: 55.0 STR: 19.95 SKL: 29.0 (Capped!) SPD: 30 (Capped!) DEF: 12.85 RES: 10.5 RES LUK: 20.3 CON: 6 Eliwood: 20/14 A Hector B Lowen HP: 47.6 STR: 21.4 SKL: 21.0 SPD: 20.6 DEF: 15.6 RES: 14.2 LUK: 21.4 CON: 9 Let's give them both Silver Swords and see what happens. Guy Silver Sword: 38 MT, 88 AVD, 59 CRT. Eliwood Silver Sword: 38 MT, 88 AVD, 28 CRT. (Note: I factored in Guy loses 2 AS from using the Silver Sword, but I also rounded all averages to the nearest whole number and assumed both had S-ranks in swords.) Guy wins again, he's criticalling way more than Eliwood and therefore making his damage output amazing. Eliwood can't compete with any other weapon, he won't have the high enough rank in lances to go near the Silver Lance. Guy wins, quite frankly. Even if I take away the Matthew support, Guy still has 35 MT, 81 AVD, and 44 CRT. Guy still wins because he's still extremely dodgy and he's still kicking the shit out of Eliwood's offense. If you give Guy the Killing Edge, his AVD goes up to 83 AVD, his MT falls to 31 MT, but hit critical goes from 44 to 74. Still very dodgy, still dealing much more damage than Eliwood. <3 --------------------------------------------------------------------- In short, Guy beats Eliwood in the early game, trumps Eliwood completely during the midgame when Eliwood will kill your EXP rankings if he's used and cannot grow, and uses his level lead to dominate Eliwood in the end. |
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| Denning | Jul 12 2007, 01:12 PM Post #4 |
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You’re still forgetting the Killing Edge’s 20 uses. If you’re using it situationally to kill most early game enemies (who happen to be cavaliers and nomads more than anything else, and I hope you wouldn‘t just casually waste it on brigands and archers, or even the slower mercenaries. . .), the uses will be burnt out too quickly, even if Guy manages to critical a few times. So, is triple damage against any enemy nice? But of course, if you can do it more than just a few times that actually matter. Guy’s offensive advantage against the more common enemies will begin to deteriorate once you realize that Guy will need the killing edge to kill the stronger enemies, yet the killing edge won’t have the uses when you really need them. The Rapier will last longer than Guy’s killing edge even if you used it rather often in Eliwood’s earliest chapters.
Guy’s offense will actually lack due to his lackluster defenses at this point; the reason Marcus can take down so many more enemies than anyone else early in the game is because his defenses are good for this part of the game. It’s definitely not just due to Guy’s AS alone and the killing edge, since everyone besides Marcus needs to exercise caution in battle in the early going.
Really… Priscilla’s evade will be decent after promotion mainly due to her high LCK(when it actually matters; usually, she’d be kept out of battle so many times that the bonuses she’d get normally wouldn’t matter). I don’t see 5 EVA at the B level really being huge enough to actually make a difference, but whatever, though.
whoopee
Fuck the HP advantage. It balances out since Eliwood has greater DEF (and even more from supports), and since they’re dodging evenly, Eliwood actually has it better on defense than Guy, and he won‘t be getting doubled, either. As for offense, I suppose that the critical hit ratio is something, but Eliwood is still matching Guy in the area of damage being dished out on a normal basis. …And, a B with Priscilla? Correct me if I’m wrong, but are you sure that Guy will have a B with her right now? A C perhaps, and the A with Matthew, yeah, but a B? Assuming that you’re wrong, Guy loses -1 MT, 2.5 EVA, and -5 CRT. Or maybe I’m just thinking of ENM/HM. . . But if you’re right, then the original point still stands. Overall, though, Eliwood > Guy in defense.
Such a massive level lead is an overstatement, if Eliwood’s so grossly underleveled as you seem to make it seem. In that case, Eliwood’s still easy to work up since he‘s so badly underleveled, and with a stronger weapon (he’ll be focusing on lances mostly from here on if you want him to use something of worth later on, like the killer lance) such as the iron lance, he will pass Guy’s offense even with Guy at 20/6 with an iron sword. At 20/6, HHM Guy will be around 15-16 STR. Factoring in supports, his base ATK (without a weapon, if you didn’t know) is 21. With an iron sword, that comes to 26. 20/1 Eliwood has 15.5 STR, and with supports, Eliwood’s base ATK is 19 (Since the ATK bonus from the support at the A level was 1.5, I just added it to the STR stat, and then added in the 2 ATK from the Lowen B support.). Since the iron lance has 7 Mt, we come to Eliwood having 26 ATK. . . All right, so, in this chapter, seeing as majority of the enemies are lance-wielding wyverns, Guy’s at a disadvantage unless he’s using a lancereaver. That’s a bit of an unfair advantage if Eliwood doesn’t get one himself, however. So, all Eliwood has to do is use a lance and he’ll be fine, but Guy’s offense will be lessened since he loses -1 MT (and -15 hit, but that shouldn’t matter much, lucky for him). Both will still be doubling. Might I also add in that Eliwood is still crushing Guy in defenses? Unlike Eliwood, Guy gets absolutely no DEF bonuses from his supporters. Eliwood gets 3.5 DEF. That DEF is completely overshadowing Guy’s 5 HP lead, and since lance users get +1 MT against sword users, Guy’s not doing as hot as Eliwood. Especially when you factor in that most enemies in HHM are lancers.
Way ahead? No. I’ll be fair and say a tad bit better, but midgame ranges from Chapter 22 to 28. Eliwood > Guy, in Chapter 26 and onward.
Most chapters? Give me a few examples of what Matthew will be stealing in “most chapters”, because most items that you get will have been dropped as it is, or taken from chests. As I said earlier, most chests tend to be undermanned, and if Guy’s escorting Matthew to the chests, he’s just being deprived of combat, if that’s what you also meant by stealing. So, if Matthew’s stealing from enemies (and there’s really not all that much to steal unless you’re just snatching up keys, which isn’t necessary since most tend to be dropped, and Matthew’s not gaining any more EXP anyway), that’s right nice and all, but with chests, Guy’s most likely being held back since he’s being an escort.
And is also helping the EXP rating, yes?
…Not hitting level 20/20? No. No, no, no. You lie. 32x, although made for Hector, is also good for other units who may be underleveled. Here, Eliwood will be getting more than 1.5 levels, easily enough for him to hit 20/20, or 20/18, at the least. Then comes some combat in Light which should push them both to 20/20. Don’t tell me that you’re skipping an opportunity to bolster the EXP rating and improve your characters, now.
Heheheheheh
Wut? No. They’re both at 20/20. Guy will have about 21 STR; Eliwood will have 23.8 (you could call it 24 if you wanted to, but whatever). If Eliwood’s losing in offense, it’s still not by much overall, since both will fare rather well. Either way, Eliwood’s defenses are still better, and his AVO excels above Guy’s with the 6 additional levels, since Guy gets no bonus towards LCK, and at 20/20, it’s still 21.2.
limited time
There is no level lead. : | |
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| +Reaver | Jul 12 2007, 04:28 PM Post #5 |
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Troll
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It isn't going to last forever, I agree completely, but this still means Guy has a massive advantage offensively. Guy also has such an AS lead over Eliwood that he can take up heavier weapons and improve his MT total and still double, Eliwood cannot say the same thing. Of course the rapier will last longer than the Killing Edge, but the rapier is also temporal should be used sparingly. Guy with the Iron Sword, as I proved earlier > Eliwood with the Iron Sword. What does this change again? Guy with the Killing Edge can take out enemies only Marcus would normally have a chance against. It's better than 1 DEF.  Eliwood won't be getting doubled, but he won't double nearly as much. Guy can get the fastest enemies. As for offense, the critical ratio puts Guy's MT about 3x higher than Eliwood's. An A with Matthew is 78 turns, a B with Prissy is 81. :Psyduck:. It's not that much of a stretch to say that in eight whole chapters Guy and Prissy can't amass 81 turns for a B (or even get a B on Dragon's Gate). Even if I am wrong the critical hit ratio still puts guy way ahead. I never argued that, but he's dodging just as well as Eliwood and if he's not getting hit defenses are easier to ignore. Massively underleved means you're massively not fighting well too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Guy criticalling very often puts him ahead of Eliwood, correct? Guy's critical at 20/6 (with supports) will be like 51, assuming he hasn't gotten an S-rank in swords. Eliwood at 20/1 is around 20 CRT. Guy's offense > Eliwood's offense. Guy's dodgy enough for it to not matter. 62 AVO @ 20/6 isn't too bad, not great but certainly not subpar by any means, but Guy being able to kill units despite having WTD is pretty solid (since he gets full HT from his supports, uses the most accurate weapons, has jacked SKL, and isn't going to be effected by -15HT and +15 AVO to the enemy). lolwut Eliwood doesn't get godly fast, he's at 20/1 at the beginning of 26 and Guy should be at 20/6. Let's compare. Guy: 20/6 HP: 46.0 STR: 16.35 SKL: 23.4 SPD: 25.4 DEF: 11.05 RES: 7.5 LUK: 14.9 CON: 6 Eliwood: 20/1 HP: 37.2 STR: 15.5 SKL: 14.5 SPD: 15.6 DEF: 11.7 RES: 9.6 LUK: 15.6 CON: 9 I don't think so, that and if Guy is winning at 20/18 like I demostrated earlier chances are Eliwood doesn't get better than him. Well... Chapter 20: Dragon's Gate -Doors, Chests, And Member Card/Lockpick Chapter 21: New Resolve -Thief Vision. Chapter 22: Kinship's Bond -Door and Chest down and to the left. Chapter 23: Living Legend. -Matthew has 100% chance of finding the items. Best canidate. 23x: Genesis -Chests here! Gogo MATTHEW Chapter 24: Four Fanged Offense -Red Gem from Enemy. Chapter 25: Crazed Beast -Nothing Chapter 26: Unfulfilled Heart -Knight's Crest Chapter 27: Pale Flower of Darkness -Chests and Doors Galore! Chapter 28: Battle Before Dawn -Thief Vision, Chests, Doors -Earth Seal and Elysian Whip Chapter 29: Cog of Destiny -Iron Rune, greatly aids in killing Linus/Lloyd -Guiding Ring Chapter 30: The Berserker -Chests galore, traps to disarm Chapter 31: Sands of Time -Chests and Doors I think I made my point. Also, as for Matthew's theiving EXP, who cares, it's not like anyone else can use it anyway besides the mediocre Legault... Whereas Guy hasn't been helping at all this entire time? It helps your EXP, but he's still weak as hell. Why level Eliwood? He's not strong against the Dragon next to Athos and Hector and he certainly isn't doing shit with Durandal? Either way, that's just more opportunity for thieving on this chapter for Matthew and Guy to slaughter too, we don't pick favorites. Guy is going to have a level lead, having six more chapters to level without contest kind of does that. I counted 32x, but with my EXP formula we aren't assuming mass boosts in EXP like that... lol wut even at 20/20 (which won't happen) Eliwood's AVD (22x2) + (24) + (25) = 93 Guy's AVD (30x2) + (21) + (12) = 93 Really now? And, since only 1/8 of the bosses will use a lance, Guy doesn't need to worry about WTD. lolwut All parts are limited. Guy wins the entire game, since he's winning at the start, he's winning at Dragon's Gate-Unfulfilled Heart, and he's winning at the end of the game. Now for the fun part: Eliwood is a flamer.  He just slobs on Hector's knob day after day because he wants to be like Hector, but knows he's inferior in every way. He can't match in him offense or DEF and he wishes he could put Lyn down on the table and fuck her brains out like Hector does. Just because Eliwood gets special endings on his mode that no one gives a shit about doesn't mean he's straight, he full well knows that the only reason he isn't riding another man is because he needs to have a child. But Guy... Guy knows how to get things done. He basically robs Raven of Priscilla and prevents incest but he's also a fast dude. Not to mention that his critical can only mean one thing...  Guy knows how to shoop da whoop and kick any enemy's ass. That lazah will blow anyone out of the water and Guy full well knows it, that's why no one crosses this kid. That's why Eliwood is inferior, Eliwood can't shoop da whoop like Guy can and fails offensively. It also helps that Guy is straight and not a pansy. |
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| Denning | Jul 14 2007, 07:58 AM Post #6 |
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If this is for strictly earlygame, then there aren’t many, if any heavier weapons that Guy can take up and still double with. Also, I was hoping you would notice, or maybe it’s just me, but Eliwood can use the killing edge, as well. It’s also being used up at a slower pace in Eliwood’s hands, and since you’ll still be pulling off many crits, well…
The difference is is that you have to use killing edge even more sparingly. . .
Once again, no. Since Guy is by far more frail than Marcus in the early game, Guy won’t be taking out many enemies that Marcus could unless it’s by sheer luck. Marcus one-rounds several enemies and can survive. Guy will either die going up against “enemies that only Marcus could go against” or take such massive damage that you’re likely not to try that again.
Barely, if really at all. It wouldn‘t make a major difference.. 
I don’t think even Guy can get the fastest enemies unless he’s using an iron sword; in which case, he won’t be one-rounding them. He certainly can’t double the faster mercenaries with the killing edge, and as for the critical hit boost, Eliwood gets that same boost if he’s using the killing edge.
But I did. 
Slightly less with more WTD after promotion
Wut wut? No. Guy will be getting hit more often than Eliwood if he’s suffering more WTD after promotion, no doubt about it. He might be fast and he might dodge many attacks, but Eliwood can easily dodge more.
This isn’t changing the fact that Guy is becoming easier to hit, and although the wyvern riders will have hit rates ranging from 80 or so (rough estimate, at the lowest) to 90 (obviously not counting Vaida, and that‘s also a rough estimate on hit rates). Since Guy also gets absolutely no DEF from his supports, Guy can still be mobbed and hit hard.
Once again, if you go for the chests, you’ll likely be depriving Guy of intense combat, especially if you go for the chest nearest your party at the start of the map. The Member Card thief also starts closer to Legault; if you want to get the chests quickly, kill Darin and seize the throne, you’re better off recruiting Legault and having him steal the Card instead. It‘s something Matthew can steal, but something that he‘s not likely to in a real situation.
This is one chapter where Guy might actually get some combat in, but there are some Swordreaver fighters in the vicinity. Guy will definitely be in peril here, even if he’s capable of one-rounding the enemies. Let’s also forget that Priscilla probably hasn’t even promoted yet, and sending her down there with Guy is just involuntarily risking her. Of course, if you just have Guy and Matthew jettison down there, you’ll also risk killing Heath. And, at least recruiting Heath for something is better than getting nothing.
It’s also tactics rape if you try to get them all.
Too bad he won’t get to all of them. . . And, Guy won’t get much combat as it is; there aren’t many enemies here.
Heheh
Guy’s still deprived of combat if he’s with Matthew, dawdling while Matthew’s opening the chests. . .
The thief vision is the only thing he really has going for him (and I was talking about what Matthew could steal, earlier; I wasn’t really worrying about his ability. . .). As for the chests, it will take a mighty long time to get them, especially the ones on the west side of the map. The Elysian Whip is also dropped, as is the earth seal, IIRC. It doesn’t make a lick of a difference if you try to steal those items; if anything, killing the enemies who have them outright is the better option.
You can easily stop Linus (especially Linus) and Lloyd without the iron rune; really, you can just do it with ranged magic or one of the Pegasus knights.
But if you come here with Matthew, Guy can’t come, seeing as only Hector and Matthew would be there. Major combat deprivation right there.
Guy will lack in combat. All right, if you go for the chests on the west side of this map, you’ll definitely not be netting Guy some major experience since there are only a Swordmaster and two myrmidons over there. Yee-haw. And the chest in the lower-west half of the map? Whoopee, Matthew will probably be unprotected and open to some major damage, and if he kills something, the EXP rating will droppppppp……….
No.
No. Weak as hell? That’s just a huge overexaggeration, especially since in The Value of Life, Eliwood is hitting the higher levels. Unless you were talking about Eliwood’s 20/1 to Guy’s 20/6; in which case, Guy’s weak as hell, too, because Guy and Eliwood are closely matched in damage dealt against the enemies as shown earlier, and Guy is completely outdone in overall defense.
Wait, what? What are you talking about? You bring up all of this bullshit about how Eliwood isn’t doing shit with Durandal, and then you talk about Matthew’s thieving abilities and Guy’s chance to kill some enemies? If you’re talking about Light, for one thing, Eliwood > Guy and Matthew, combined, against the dragon. And, for another, Matthew won’t be stealing anything from the dragon, and even if you were dumb enough to try that, Matthew would die. Rather fast. In one shot. Now, if you’re talking about 32x, Matthew can come and snatch shit up from the chests, yeah, but it’d be flat-out unnecessary if Guy were to come. If Guy is as highly leveled as your level formula states, he’ll hit 20/20 way too fast, and then if he’s used, he’ll kill the EXP rating. Eliwood > Guy in this chapter; he’s actually helping your ratings, and he’s not hitting 20/20 as fast and, as a result, becoming useless. One thing your EXP formula seems to neglect, though, if you’re not going to give your units who actually need them the mass EXP boosts, you’ll just wind up killing your ratings later on. Hell, actually, you could just forget about Matthew and give someone else two Chest Keys, preferably someone who could use some experience, and be even better off, since you’ll have some units at a high level for Light. And I really didn’t want to have to do this, but. . .
No. I hardly call your horribly falsified accusations of “Eliwood slobbing Hector’s knob” true. Looking at one of the CG’s we see Hector putting his arm around Eliwood…  If Hector’s so much better than Eliwood, then he wouldn’t need to get all fresh with him like that… Of course, Guy’s also got his own dirty little secrets. When he’s not out failing miserably with Pent’s wife or scoring lame chicks such as Priscilla, he’s busy riding Karel, Rath, and Matthew’s cocks. And you call Eliwood a flamer. . . Eliwood is getting some from many chicks. He also gets Lyn because Lyn is just some pitiful dirty virgin who is just itching to give it up. Now, since Hector is on steroids, we can reasonably infer that his dick is pretty much nonexistent. Eliwood, however, looks to be reasonably normal sized, yet we all know that he’s probably concealing something major. He must be, if he’s getting all of these dirty virgins to come out of the closet. . . But, anyway, back to Guy. All right, Guy is statistically superior to Karel. How, though, does Karel wind up killing Guy when it’s all said and done? After all of that cock sucking, you’d expect that Karel would’ve been a little nicer to one of his pupils. And once Priscilla found out about Guy’s secrets, she left him. Guy was probably better at sucking cock than she was. Guy said he’d be back for her, but what does Guy do? He goes out and gets killed. That’s what he gets for riding on three different dicks. Three. Now, Eliwood is the man. He’s getting head from three different women - Lyn, Rebecca, and Fiora. That “nice guy” shit always manages to net a few good women, and as a result, you get better sex. When a dumb chick like Lyn gets flattered to the point where she actually believes now that she’s more than some cock-riding whore, she’s giving Eliwood more than just some one-night stand. Eliwood gets the all-night-special, every night, whereas Guy just gets…nothing, but dick in his ass. Fail. Now, let’s look at the official artwork of Rebecca. Do you know why she’s bending over? Because she’s just waiting for Eliwood to come up from the back and just fuck the living hell out of her. They even released a few porn flicks on the internet, but that would be a bit too much for some members on this forum. . . Let’s go to the pictures. I couldn’t get the extreme Eliwood x Rebecca one that I wanted, but who cares, right?  Yeah, Eliwood’s getting good head from Rebecca. Guy could get some from Prissy, but she’s lame, and she’s a wimp. She’s afraid to suck anyone else’s cock but Raven’s. But Eliwood… He’s doing it with Dart’s sister, and possibly the future wife of one of his own knights. Eliwood is certainly a badass, and a pimp.  The Sacaen whore, Lyn. Years of being sequestered alone in that small hut on the plains has caused this woman to go crazy for a good, non-steroids taking man to fuck her, and fuck her good. No woman is above Eliwood; he even gets the prideful, cock-deprived females.  Then we come to Fiora, the sister of the prostitute, Farina. Fiora probably got all of her sex skills from Farina, so you know that Fiora can take a dick. She comes off as a quiet chick, but when the right man gets in front of her, she becomes a beast on the meat. Eliwood is certainly beating out Guy in how many different women he can fuck, that’s for sure. But we seem to have left a certain someone for last. . .  That’s right, Eliwood’ even getting it from the dragonwhore, Ninian. Mmm. Uncut beastiality. Now let’s see the men whom Guy are sucking off, now.    Do you see the similarity in all of these pictures besides the fact that Guy is deep-throating all of these men’s dicks? All of these men are frowning. Guy might be good at deep-throating cock, but they’ve already got some women. The freaky, kinky whore known as Lyn switches between both Eliwood and Rath, so she’s getting the best of two different men, so Rath is disappointed. Matthew already had some with Leila and a few run-ins with Serra, so he’s also displeased. And Karel. . .well, he’ll kill him later. (: And you call Guy straight. . .
Yeah, he really knows how to take a dick.
Wut wut? Fuk dat, nahhh. Not only is Priscilla just a lackluster, flat, undesirable female, but Guy also goes off and gets killed by Karel, and they never had the time to do anything. . .
As in being caught with three different dudes on random days of the week? Damn, he’s probably sucking off every man in the entire campaign.
Wut? No. If Guy didn’t use those newly found huge lips for cock sucking, then maybe he’d actually be able to whoop some ass with that lazah. So, in this case, who cares about shooping da whoop when Guy’s using not really even using that, but instead the huge lips in order to deep-throat dick?
Yes, Eliwood’s offense in the bed with males is inferior, because Eliwood doesn’t ride dick and make men bust a nut like Guy does.
You call sucking cock the sign of a straight man? gg |
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| +Reaver | Jul 14 2007, 12:34 PM Post #7 |
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Troll
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 My foot's looking for a room and there's a vacancy sign in your ass. I'm not going to give the Killing Edge to Eliwood because it's stronger in Guy's hands. I would take the rapier and make Guy use it, he's not a sissy like Eliwood is because he puts his foot into everyone's ass. Period. Guy's also better and needs the killing edge less, Eliwood's just a dumbass. Boy, what part don't you get of "Guy can take on enemies only Marcus could take" refers to him putting his foot into that enemy's ass. Defensively he's nothing special right now, but when he's taking out a unit that only Marcus could really stand a chance against who cares about counterattacks by a unit that's dead? Excellent, we agree that we can use Priscilla over Lucius. Why the hell would you support a man like guy with a draftdodging hippie like Lucius? I want to put my foot in his ass. Luckily the fast dumbasses have low defenses when you try to put your foot in their ass. Guy is going to double everything early on with 13 AS with the Iron Sword and even 12 AS with the Killing Edge. Oops, wait a minute, 12 AS should be enough to double with the killing edge. :richie:
Eliwood beating Guy in DEF shows he needs more protection like a pansy, Guy knows the fine art of "getting out of the way of an attack" and "don't get hit like a dumbass".Unit samples from Victory or Death, we'll put Guy at 20/16 (which means 91 AVD with the Iron Sword or 89 AVD with the Killing Edge). (Also note: 76 AVD with WTD)
Knight's Hit with WTA = 101. Knight's HIT on Guy = 25%. General's Hit with WTA = 112. General's HIT on Guy = 36% Wyvern Rider's Hit wiith WTA (All weapons have 70HT) = 105. Wyvern Rider's Hit on Guy = 29%. (Note: One has Axereaver, meaning his HT on Guy drops to 0.) Wyvern Lord Hit with WTA (Silver/Steel) = 118/113. Wyvern Lord Hit on Guy = 42/37%. Paladin's Hit with WTA (Silver/Steel) = 116/111. Paladin's Hit on Guy = 40%/35%. Cavalier's Hit with WTA = 90. Hit on Guy = 12%. Falcokngiht's Hit with WTA = 119. Hit on Guy = 43%. Using the Real Hit chart from RPGDL, located here, you'll get the idea of why Guy isn't suffering with WTD. No enemy has greater than a 40% real chance of hitting Guy, most are around 32%. None of these dumbasses are going to lay a finger on Guy while he puts his foot, you guessed it, into their asses. Last time I checked making a beeline for the chests to the northwest = going up against Cameron. Guy gets promoted here. Guy will have more CRT and be a beast, I see no danger to him. Even at that you can take the long route around to get the chests so your lords meet Heath and you get the chests, Guy isn't suffering from lack of combat here, especially when Eliwood is a detriment to the EXP rank at this time. You have flyers and two thieves, you should be able to get five items and then steal from Paul/Jasmine easily enough. He's still getting some fighting in. You're shitting me? There are chests in such abundance on both routes, Jerme's especially, and in the buildings with chests there are plenty of enemies to fight. http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/468480/28335 That guide begs to differ, also, you're going to go for all the items despite how much time it takes, you have a set amount of turns so use them to the fullest. Or you could steal the Iron Rune and let Guy's CRT get to work. You can bring two other units besides Hector and the enemies aren't difficult enough to warrant a healer if 20/1 Hector can take them with general ease. Lucky for us this is one chapter versus Eliwood's six chapters of EXP threatening kills and even at that Matthew won't be killing much because he doesn't have nearly enough STR to do so. Yes, you basically tried to downplay Matthew in every situation claiming he isn't going to get such and such item blah blah blah and it really didn't work, it made me want to shove a foot in your ass. Eliwood is weak when compared to units that promote before him and are useful the entire game versus needing to take a six chapter time-out so they don't absolutely rape the EXP rank and then come back as little sissies trying to get a foot in their ass. I would call being superior to every rank with Matthew and Guy killing every enemy better than Eliwood >>>>>>>>>> Being able to take one stinking enemy. I counted Value of Life into my formula. And of course I'm not going to give units mass EXP boosts, that's just neglecting every other unit that wants EXP. Chest keys are hardly as practical as Matthew and only dumbasses would try and buy chest keys instead of using a unit that's basically infinite chest keys with the amount of Lockpicks Matthew has stolen. I don'tt think Guy is riding any of them, if anything he's like Yzarc and having not-gay buttsex with them because he's pitching. Also, Pent claims to be a playa, but Guy fucked his wife. Also, Priscilla is your most useful healer. Not lame. Last time I checked women don't go to bed with pansies, they go to the Gap and Bath and Body with them because they're too pathetic to even contemplate putting a foot in someone's ass. Eliwood taking Lyn to check out new handbags TOTALLY counts as getting laid. Also, Hector's dick is huge because he's just jacked without roids. He's a good ol' fashioned man who knows how to put more than a foot into Eliwood's ass. Karel never kills Guy, Guy probably shoves his foot into Karel's ass and makes him take a giant personality change from FE7 to FE6 because Karel is so damn afraid of fighting someone again and getting his ass handed to him. Guy's also not sucking cock, why would you when you can lay Louise down on the table and do Pent's wife? In Ilia, women are the men. Eliwood's just taking Fiora the dickgirl in his ass and Rebecca/Lyn aren't going to bed with him when Lyn is a flaming lesbian with Florina and Rebecca is only interested in shopping with Eliwood. Who's the flamer now, Guy who bangs Louise or Eliwood who goes shopping for handbags with Rebecca and takes dickgirls in his ass? Beastiality is just wrong, I think Eliwood qualifies as a furry for hitting up Ninian. Banging an animal = disgusting. Also, why is Guy going to suck anyone's cock. He's obviously to good for that and he'll stick his foot into the ass of any dumbass trying to put something else in his ass. Guy's a Sacean man, Guy fights and kicks ass. Eliwood takes a time out to go to do the mall crawl with his girlfriends who will never, EVER think about sucking him off. Why is Eliwood coming in contact with Lyn, Fiora, and Rebecca when they aren't asking for shopping advice? Eliwood, as you stated, has Lowen and Hector to jack off in his spare time as you put it with Hector A and Lowen B. I doubt Eliwood's getting some action on the side because he also needs to help Lowen with his bitch work in the kitchen cooking. BIIITCH. Pent's afraid to go near Guy when he's banging Louise because he doesn't want to get hit by that Lazah. Louise likes a different kind of laser that Guy shoots. Pent is powerless to stop Louise getting Guy in her ass because he doesn't want a foot in his ass. And, of course: the coup de grace of the debate: 
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| +Reaver | Jul 14 2007, 12:34 PM Post #8 |
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Troll
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Debate closed judging time. |
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7:38 PM Nov 25
