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| Reikken and Dragon Hellfire vs Solid and Simon | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 18 2007, 01:56 PM (463 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Jul 18 2007, 01:56 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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hawt
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 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Reikken | Jul 21 2007, 02:24 AM Post #2 |
 
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Okay, what do we have? We've got... thief skillz + combat + healing --> thief skillz + combat + healing + combat ...on one side, and... combat + combat --> combat + combat + healing ...on the other. The first is easily much more useful than the latter. I mean, there's not even a debaet. The arrow is promotion, btw. To make this easier to see, I'll cancel out the things that our teams have in common... thief skillz + vs ...so we get: thief skillz + healing --> thief skillz vs combat --> O snap. So how is your team better? The only way would be is if your team was winning combat by a monstrous amount, and that's not the case at all, as I'll demonstrate. Colm, lv 2, C Neimi, Iron Sw0rd: 10 atk, 10 AS, 18 hp, 3 def, 1 res, 30 avo Vanessa, lv 1, (She's unlikely to get even one level in the first chapter since it has very few enemies, and they're all axes anyway. Not that 1 level makes any difference either way, and Colm would quickly make it up even if it did exist.) Slim Lance: 9 atk, 11 AS, 17 hp, 6 def, 5 res, 26 avo Iron: 12 atk, 8 AS, 20 avo She doesn't have enough AS to double the early axe users with Iron, and she gets WTD while Colm gets WTA, so she loses by 3 atk against them. Similarly, she wins by 3 atk vs Soldiers. Then against the rest of the enemies either one wins by a smaller amount. Then Colm's growth rate is higher, mostly thanks to a class exp bonus, so it's only getting better for him. There's not even an advantage here for Vanessa at all, let alone a monstrous one. laterz on, Colm, lv 20/11 Rogue, B Neimi, A Moulder, Steel Sword: 29.1 atk, 23.3 AS, 24.9 crit,, 41.0 hp, 16.0 def, 12.6 res, 79.2 avo Iron Sword: 26.1 atk, 26.3 AS, ....85.2 avo Vanessa, lv 20/5 ...Wyvern Knight?, B Moulder, A Lute, Steel Lance: 30.0 atk, 20.3 AS, 10.0 crit,, 31.5 hp, 16.6 def, 17.9 res, 82.3 avo Iron Lance: 27.0 atk, 24.3 AS, ...90.3 avo Here, I would venture to say that Vanessa is actually losing, if anything. On offense, 3 AS and 15 crit > 1 atk On defense, 10 hp > 5 res and ~4 avo Certaily far far from a monstrous win. And there's also a period that Colm is promoted and Vanessa is not, so that's bad for Vanessa. For Lute and Moulder, since I don't want to do another stat comparison (>_>), and comparing their stats before promtion seems rather pointless, and and there's more variables, like Slayer, I'll just say that Moulder gets an exp bonus ftw, can use higher level staves (staff level goes up much slower than that of offensive weapons), has Slayer, a crit lead, and has massive con for using heavy weapons VS Lute's mag, so he's likely winning if anything. So yeah, your team clearly doesn't have a massive win in combat, and may even be losing, so it's getting beaten badly. |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Jul 25 2007, 04:45 PM Post #3 |
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No. First of all, you left out flyer utility. Second, this debate depends entirely on the respective values of each unit's combat performance and utility. Taking "combat" on both sides and striking them out doesn't prove that your characters are better. Within combat, there are also different levels of proficiency and different roles, so it's far more complex than what your structural comparison there would evidence. That said, let's evaluate:
"Thief skillz" can easily be replicated with Chest/Door Keys. Colm's "utility" is basically "I let your other units not worry about holding keys." Prepromotion, this is basically worthless since units don't have many weapons they could be holding. Postpromotion, Rennac is around, so Colm certainly isn't the only unit that can pick locks (Assassin Joshua can do so, as well). Before you say that Rennac is garbage, recall that you don't need good stats at all to use Thief skills, so that's entirely irrelevant. And then in this game, your Supply is your Lord, who, unlike Merlinus, is always mobile (and counterattacks), so Colm’s aforementioned “utility” is worth even less. And then you can just bring a non-Thief filler unit, loaded down with Chest/Door Keys. A prepromote like Duessel or Seth works perfectly--more mobility, good durability (if you're worried about that), 0 training. Thieving is also more replaceable than combat--everyone can use a Door Key, not everyone can fight well. Finally, you forgot about flyer utility in your equation there. How does this stack up? Let's see. In Chapter 2, Vanessa is the only one who can reach Ross before he is killed. In Chapter 6, the NPCs on the East side can effectively be protected by Vanessa, who has no problems traversing the peaks. She can even carry Lute along to help handle the Baels. Tana isn't even around yet. In Chapter 9 on Eirika’s Route, there’s a Rapier, a Speedwing, a Dragonshield, and an Angelic Robe that only Vanessa/Tana (who is fragile/10 at this point) can reach before the Pirates destroy things. She can ferry Lute again and take lots of enemies down doing so (netting you an Ocean Seal, too). In Chapter 10 on Ephraim's Route, there's a Secret Book on a Fleet that requires a flyer to get. Tana, at this point, is OHKO'd by the Fleet, whereas Vanessa will be quite fine retrieving you that statup. In Ch. 17, Syrene will be easily killed by the Druids surrounding her (or she'll drain EXP from your team by killing them, if she somehow survives). Vanessa is one of the units who can recruit her, and seeing as Vanessa flies and has high mobility, she's obviously going to be doing this. Syrene comes with a Silver Lance. In this chapter, there are also rivers. Vanessa can easily go around and intercept incoming enemies if she wants. With a Javelin, she can easily destroy all the Druids (and their reinforcements later) on a turn, whereas Colm won't even reach them, let alone kill them (no range ftl). In Ch. 18, the Gorgon eggs hatch very quickly, and Gorgons are both more dangerous than Gorgon eggs and give less EXP, so your flyers are wondrous here. Again, Vanessa w/Javelin >>>>> In Ch. 20, there are lots of mountains/forests. Who better than Vanessa here? Now that we've got flyer utility covered, let's move on to actually comparing Vanessa and Colm as combat units, shall we?
Good thing that Brigands disappear around Chapter 4 and Soldiers continue to be commonplace, eh? Vs. Fighter (24 HP/3 Def): 6/0 Colm: 8.6x2 = 17.2 w/Iron Sword 5/0 Vanessa: 9.4x2 = 18.8 w/Iron Lance Vs. Soldier (25 HP/0 Def): 6/0 Colm: 9.6x2 = 19.2 w/Iron Sword 5/0 Vanessa: 13.4x2 = 26.8 w/Iron Lance Vs. Archer (22 HP/5 Def) 6/0 Colm: 5.6x2 = 11.2 w/Iron Sword, 5/0 Vanessa: 8.4x2 = 16.8 w/Iron Lance Vs. Merc (25 HP/6 Def) 6/0 Colm: 4.4x1 = 4.4 w/Iron Sword 5/0 Vanessa: 8.4x1 = 8.4 w/Iron Lance Vanessa using Iron here doesn’t matter since neither has reliable Avoid yet and she’s doubling either way. What I see is Vanessa winning against everything, even that Fighter.
Two things I see wrong with this picture. 1. Colm has B Neimi. 2. Colm has a level lead of 6. Let me address #1 first. Neimi’s a pretty awful unit. On “regular” (read: large) teams she starts out pretty badly. Not being able to counterattack on Enemy Phase is a pretty massive problem and then her beginning stats are pretty much horrible too (17 HP, 4 Str, 6 Spd, and 3 Def = zomg, she’s Ross-level phail, and Ross gains like 5x as much EXP, both due to trainee bonus and being able to counterattack on Enemy Phase), and they don’t get good for a long time. Then, on smaller teams, Neimi’s problem gets even worse. The point of a small team is to increase your units’ durability faster so that they can take more blows. However, Neimi can only attack on Player Phase, so while everyone else is gaining many more levels on a small team, she’s not. And she’s slowing down the turn count by being there at all on a smaller team since you can’t shield her and enemies will go for her before others. In the face of this, Colm is not going to be getting B Neimi, no matter how fast it is, and that effectively gives him -2 Atk. Which brings me to point #2. Experience is directly related to offense. You get some EXP for injuring and more EXP for killing. Now, Colm's offense is downright _bad_. He has a terrible Str stat and is locked into Swords. In the words of Yzarc Drowsnam, "I doubt he could one-round a cow." Vanessa, meanwhile, consistently has a Str lead on him, Lances, and an actual B (read: +2 Atk) support. The numbers above have already demonstrated how much better Vanessa is performing, and, as supports build, the situation only gets worse for Colm. Let’s take Ch. 8 as a demonstration of his offense. If Colm is 12/0 in this chapter (might be overshooting it by a level or two, but let’s see anyway), he has 15 Atk with an Iron Sword (B Moulder). He does 13x2 = 26 to a Soldier, not a 2HKO. He does 10x2 to a Mercenary, not a 2HKO. He does 10x2 to an Archer, not a 2HKO. He does 4x2 to a Knight, not a 2HKO. Meanwhile, 12/0 Vanessa has 19 Atk with an Iron Lance (B Lute/C Moulder). 18x2 to a Soldier, 2HKO. 15x2 to a Merc, 2HKO. 14x2 to an Archer, 2HKO. She doesn’t 2HKO Knights, like Colm, but guess who does? That’s right, Lute, the other member of our team. And Lute takes 0 damage from them, due to range. Meanwhile, the other member of _your_ team does…0 damage, because he’s a healer. And then, if Colm’s inferior offense doesn’t settle the reason why he won’t have a level lead of 6, then take the points listed above. Vanessa has mobility/range/flying vs. Colm. She’s getting more kills than he is for sure. For example, those Gorgon eggs in Ch. 18 each give 50 EXP a pop. She kills a mere 4 and she has two levels that Colm can’t claim (his Thief EXP Bonus doesn’t work for them, they’re 50 EXP raw, and he can’t even reach them as fast). She can equip a Javelin in Ch. 17 and kill Druids. Those same Druids show up 3 at a time as reinforcements, so Javelin Vanessa can finish them before they have any chance to do destruction. Or she can fly past the river and the peaks and deal with Wyvern Riders up north. With a Javelin she can handle Valks in this chapter, as well. This means that she has several entire wells of EXP all to herself, whereas Colm cannot claim this. And then, once Colm promotes, he’s no longer gaining an average of 1.5x everyone else’s EXP. He’s gaining 20 more EXP per base on a kill (no longer applies to injuring units, which will be the case a lot of the time with Colm’s mediocre offense). So, let’s compare them now, shall we? We’ll be generous to Colm and give him 2 levels for his Thief EXP Bonus despite Vanessa’s offensive advantage and flight/mobility/range. 20/7 Colm, A Moulder, Iron Sword Offense: 22.6 Atk, 23.7 AS, 14.8 Crit Defense: 38.0 HP, 73.2 Avoid, 14.0 Def, 10.8 Res 20/5 Vanessa, A Lute, B Moulder, Iron Lance Offense: 27 Atk, 24.3 AS, 9.75 Crit Defense: 31.5 HP, 90.3 Avoid, 17.6 Def, 17.9 Res For offense, 4-5 Atk and 1 AS > 5 Crit. For defense, 17.1 Avo, 3.6 Def, and 7.1 Res > 6.5 HP, and then Vanessa takes WTD only to Axes, which won’t hit her either way, and Colm takes WTD to Lances, which have a good chance of hitting him (yaye for Axes having low Hit). And then Vanessa has range. What was this about us not winning combat by a monstrous amount? Vanessa does 8-10 more damage than Colm per double, meaning the difference between a 2HKO and a 3HKO quite often. Then, Colm has Thief Skillz, but I’ve covered the worth of those, and Vanessa has flying to cover that, as well, so Vanessa > Colm, easily. Now, for Lute. Unlike Vanessa, Lute does not fly. However, on many of Vanessa’s flight trips, Lute will be coming along. Additionally, similar to Vanessa, one of Lute’s big advantages over Colm is 1-2 range. This makes her especially h4x for bosses. Early bosses don’t have range, so sending Lute in involves minimal risk. Then, later bosses that have range can be forced into equipping their usually weaker 1-2 range weapon by placing Lute near them, and Lute can actually handle the counter due to high durability (ex. Callaech in Ch. 15 can be forced to equip his Tomahawk this way--thanks to CATS for pointing this out). Then, for further ado about bosses, Lute has Excalibur. No other semi-decent unit is going to S Rank Anima as fast as Lute is, that’s a guarantee, so Excalibur is basically hers for the taking. Excalibur is quite handy against bosses (massive wells of EXP). And then Lute has better offense than Vanessa or Colm, and Staves postpromotion, too, so Lute’s level will be similar to Colm’s, if anything. 20/7 Lute (MK), A Vanessa, B Artur, Thunder Offense: 33.6 Atk, 17.2 AS, 12.3 Crit Defense: 31.3 HP, 80.6 Avoid, 13.7 Def, 22.0 Res 20/7 Colm, A Moulder, Iron Sword Offense: 22.6 Atk, 23.7 AS, 14.8 Crit Defense: 38.0 HP, 73.2 Avoid, 14.0 Def, 10.8 Res 11 Atk and attacking Res > 2.5 Crit and 5.5 AS (especially when Colm won’t put that AS to use with his crap offense). 12 Res, 7.4 Avoid, and not having to take counters on Player Phase and not getting WTD to a physical weapon type > 7 HP Then Lute has range, mobility, and Staves. Let’s move on to Moulder. Similar to the case against Colm, we’ll start with the value of healing. However, unlike Colm’s Thieving, Moulder’s prepromotion healing has no attacking supplement, so the issue is a bit different. Healing vs. attacking, one of the ultimate debaets. Units that are good at combat > units that heal. A healer is worthless on Enemy Phase. He’s just a body then, a liability. An attacker can utilize both phases. There’s also more attacking to be done in a given chapter than there is healing. Healing can be replicated with items (Vulnerary, Elixir); attacking cannot. Lute/Vanessa soon become two of the best combat units you have. Lute has 1-2 range and great offense, Vanessa has mobility/flight and gets h4x defenses very quickly (her offense isn’t crap like Colm’s, either). NPCs/villages are usually Vanessa’s for the taking, as well. They both have amazing supports and benefit their supporters hugely. The units that are better at around Ch. 8 or so are: Franz, Seth….damn, looks like there’s no one else! Wow, what a list! Being in the top 3-5 or so for combat >>>> being one of two healers. Most definitely. Use a Low Tier/Mid Tier instead of Lute/Vanessa, and the difference will be huge. Use Natasha instead of Moulder, and there’s no difference (durability doesn’t matter for healers since they won’t be getting attacked anyway). We’re also assuming that there are hypothetical Rankings for this tournament (aside from EXP, since EXP, as you have yourself said many a time, Reikken, has no intrinsic value). Lute/Vanessa are helping out Tactics, Survival, Funds (less expense than Staves ftw), and Combat. Moulder is helping Survival. 4 Ranks > 1, for sure. Meanwhile, Moulder needs to be protected, so he’s actually hurting the hypothetical Combat/Tactics (enemies living longer = phail, put simply). In the face of _all_ of these facts, if you were to still say Moulder > Lute/Vanessa, you would be making the claim of healing > attacking, which is total and complete bull. However, rather than let that stand by itself (which we very well could), let’s compare Moulder to LuteNessa as combat units as well. The HM EXP cut does not begin until Ch. 9. Usually, on HM, an unpromoted healer gains the same amount of levels as your party (depends on the game, I suppose, but approximately thereabouts). However, when there’s no HM EXP cut, an unpromoted healer gains _less_ EXP than the rest of your team. Then Vanessa/Lute have flight/range/mobility and boss killing, respectively, so they’re gaining even more EXP than the rest of your party. So, more likely than not, Moulder will be on a lower level than either of our duo. However, if that’s not enough for you, consider that on small teams, similar to the case with Neimi, each unit is taking more attacks on Enemy Phase—however, Moulder can’t magickz himself more Player Phases, can he? No. This means that Moulder, relative to the rest of the units on a small team (and relative to ours especially) will be at quite a level deficit. Then units with increased durability also get injured less on a smaller team, so the need for healing is lesser, too. On a small team, people are promoting around Ch. 12, whereas Moulder’s promotion is still during the same time as though he were on a large team. Moulder also has a hard time with Guiding Rings under these circumstances, as Lute/Artur will be promoting so much earlier. Clearly our duo is winning this. Moulder’s EXP boost won’t even out the difference here. So, no matter what, Moulder is at a level deficiency. Let’s compare, however: On Large Teams: 20/1 Bishop Moulder, A Colm, B Vanessa, Shine Offense: 23.8 Atk, 15.8 AS, 22.8 Crit Defense: 34.9 HP, 53 Avoid, 14.3 Def, 16.2 Res 20/4 MK Lute, A Vanessa, B Artur, Thunder, Offense: 32.1 Atk, 16.9 AS, 11.8 Crit Defense: 29.9 HP, 76.7 Avoid, 13.3 Def, 20.8 Res Offensively, 8.3 Atk and 1.1 AS >>> 11 Crit and Slayer. Lute also has Excalibur all to herself, w1n. Defensively, 23.7 Avoid and 4.6 Res > 5 HP and 1 Def. Then Lute has mobility (and her higher Mag gives her more range with Physic). 20/3 WK Vanessa, A Lute, B Moulder, Iron Lance Offense: 26.3 Atk, 23.1 AS, 9.7 Crit Defense: 30.5 HP, 86.8 Avoid, 16.2 Def, 17.3 Res Offensively, 2.5 Atk, 7.3 AS, and flight/mobility vs. 13.1 Crit, attacking Res, and Slayer. [Note that Vanessa upgrading to Steel will _still_ leave her with more AS/Avoid than Moulder, and then the Atk lead is greater (it’s already 5 per double, it’ll be 11 per double then, and Vanessa is doubling more)]The Crit’s not reliable at all(enemies in this game have actual Luck, omg), so that’s discarded. Defensively, 33.8 Avoid (h4x), 1.9 Def, and 1.1 Res > 4.4 HP, no contest. On Small Teams: 20/1 Bishop Moulder, A Colm, B Vanessa, Shine Offense: 23.8 Atk, 15.8 AS, 22.8 Crit Defense: 34.9 HP, 53 Avoid, 14.3 Def, 16.2 Res 20/9 MK Lute, A B4N3SS4, B Arturo, Thunda, Offense: 34.3 Atk, 19.1 AS, 12.6 Crit Defense: 32.2 HP, 83.3 Avoid, 14 Def, 22.8 Res 20/7 WK Vanessa, A Lute, B Moulda, Iron Lance Offense: 27.7 Atk, 25.5 AS, 10.8 Crit Defense: 32.5 HP, 93.8 Avoid (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), 17 Def, 18.5 Res omgh4x raep This doesn’t really even need commentary. If they were winning before, they’re winning even _more_ now. That’s common sense. So both our units > Moulda.
Oh, it does? That’s good for our team, then! Last, but not least, is team synergy. Our team complements each other nicely—early-midgame, Vanessa can handle Mercenaries (high-Spd enemies) and Lute can handle Knights (high-Def enemies). Together they take anything. Later on, extremely mobile physical with h4x durability + fairly mobile magical with h4x offense (and good durability) >>>>>>>. It’s quite a pairing. Vanessa tanks an enemy, Lute finishes it (if neither can finish it one turn, that is). Meanwhile, Thief + Priest is not as synergistic—Moulder’s Priesting doesn’t complement Colm’s Thieving prepromotion, and postpromotion the duo is not as dynamic as our duo (both lose mobility and neither has as h4x defense nor as h4x offense). So, let's summarize this: -Colm loses to Vanessa. His Thief Skillz are at _best_ cancelled out by her flying skills, and Vanessa thrashes him in combat. -Colm loses to Lute. Lute is far superior in combat and has Staves postpromotion. Colm's Thief Skillz aren't enough to remedy his loss in combat. -Moulder loses to Vanessa. Prepromotion, healer vs. attacker goes clearly in favor of Vanessa. Postpromotion, Vanessa wins combat. -Moulder loses to Lute. Prepromotion, healer vs. attacker goes even more clearly in favor of Lute than it did for Vanessa. Postpromotion, Lute wins combat. -Our team has more synergy. That's 5/5 wins. Vanessa/Lute > Colm/Moulder. |
| this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER | |
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| Dragon Hellfire | Jul 28 2007, 05:05 PM Post #4 |
Dragon Hellfire; three random words
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Flier utility cancels itself out mostly as the flier has to stay away from bow weilding units or they will risk a good chance of death for quite a while. The flier lacks terrain bonuses so they can't get the extra boost when needed, and they must rather retreat. Sure,flier utility is still worth something, but not much.
Well the little list there wasn't this entire debate.
No, not completely. Just to start it off you do not have enough Chest/Door Keys to get everything without a Thief. You'll definitely be missing out on quite a bit of useful things. For example: Chapter 3 -2 Doors | 1 Key -4 Chests | 1 Key Chapter 8 -2 Doors | 1 Key -2 Chests | 1 Key I can only assume this will remain consistent for the remainder of the game, and I'll apologize for not having any more chapter samples. Perhaps later. This states that not using Colm does, in fact, mean less doors/chests opened. Then you happened to have summed up "Thief Skillz" with only the lockpick. Which is absurd as "Thief Skillz" has things such as Stealing and Fog of War. Fog of War first appears in chapter 6, and then a couple more times later in the game. Without your thief (Colm) then you wouldn't be able to see far off enemies that would sneak up on you and cause you a problem delaying some of your progress for a turn. Nasty. Stealing is extremely useful for getting a bunch of extra cash and useful items early on without having to buy them. The pure water in chapter three for examples is worth 900G, and it can make a few of your units that are either 1) Naturally lacking Res or 2) Got RES screwed a bit better. Vanessa: 5.3 Res Colm w/pure water: 8 Res Whether it goes to Colm or not this is just a quick way to measure the use of the Pure Water. However it doesn't stop at this, you can give the pure water to whoever needs it the most in the situation you are in, whereas Vanessa's base Res can only go to her. The rest of the items are useful enough too, as they can first off get you money, and next they can do whatever their useful function may be. Next down the line of thief skills is the desert chapter in which bringing Colm to it and having him run around picking up items is a very good idea to save a bunch of time. Surely other units could do this too, but Colm is much more efficient.
Rennac shouldn't be used over Colm in any chapter. His starting one is obviously the exception, where he should only be used as much as Colm. However using him after that means that when there is not stealing to be done (because not every turn of every stealing chapter you actually steal) then Colm is by far the superior choice. Rennac only really offers his thieving skills, where Colm offers >= thieving skills AND can provide offensive support in multiple ways. And "entirely" irrelevant is an overstatement, for sure. Stats determine stealing, and if you have a good chance of dying while doing your thiefly things, then you shouldn't be used to do said thiefly things.
If you happen to be using Chest Keys or Door Keys, then you are most likely using them on the chapter that you get them, so the fact that you can pick them up whenever doesn't matter all too much.
How?
less mobility***
If Colm could only steal and that's it then he would probably be quite a bit worse unit. Although because this game happens to use teams instead of solo units, then his use is still there, while not as much. Just that's more irrelevant than not because Colm can fight.
The fact that you are missing out on two crappy units is not that much, and Vanessa missing out on combat for thet chapter counterweights a small portion of her use here.
Orrrr, you could just beat the chapter before they die, it's what I do. And even if you're bent on taking all your time, then I'd much rather have Seth go over there, one for surviving better, and two so that Vanessa doesn't miss out on some of the experience she could be stealing.
??? I must be missing something because last I checked you can stop those pirates from moving towards the lower village in only one turn, and the village to the left isn't hard to reach. That's only two villages though, where your example had four, and Tana isn't on your team yet. Do explain.
You can use Cormag too, and the substitute actually is there at all times unlike the keys that are needed to sub in for Colm when he's preforming the function of obtaining your nifty little items. Another difference is that Colm doesn't risk getting raepd when he's stealing nifty items where the possibility of Vanessa dying while she's getting this one item is quite there indeed.
Tana, Innes. If either of them are in play (which isn't impossible) then Vanessa completely uses the win she just had here. Even then it's still possible to wipe out this small map fast enough that Syrene is never in any real danger and she just joins your team at the end. Whatever the case I'm not so sure that a Silver Lance is going to be making all that much of a difference.
You're really overestimating this map. As long as you split your team up logically, you will not have a single problem killing anything here. Vanessa has some use as a flier sure, but it isn't all that much. And what about Colm not getting to the druids? Unless you have only Vanessa and some paladin killing them he will be there to fight too, whether he should or not. And you have Moulder too, who can fight quite well against those Druids.
Nah. Flier utilities defects are the fact that Vanessa has to stay away from units weilding bows making her mobility worse. There are plenty enough chapters where Vanessa will have to evade anything with an arrow, so this is definitely something to consider that already starts to counterweight her mobility lead on our units. Next is supports; if you plan to use Vanessa to go to reach far off enemies than her support partners are left behind that much more. Seeing as this is debating which team is best, then taking into account on how well the two of our units can work together is stressed that much more. The difference in mobility between Vanessa and Lute is never closed, not even when archers are nearbye unless you want to stop Lute from gaining nice experience too. Terrain bonuses are great for boosting Eva, and Vanessa can't take from this. While she has good base Eva the fact that she can't hand behind trees places her lower than it would seem. Added in with that her supporters won't be that close when she's flying back and forth and you have yourself a fragile unit. Sure she can eva well, but if there's a chance of her dying, even if it's small, she shouldn't be doing whatever it is that causes that. And what I've gathered from her flier utility is that she can fly across terrain at a point that it matters in two chapters, one moreso than the other, and the fact that she can gain you a couple items even though there are substitutes. Actually, the only thing that I really think shows her flier utility at it's best is the fact she can kill Gorgon eggs. Greaaattttt. Now you speak of this being worth more than Colm's thief ability, even though he's gaining faster experience with Vanessa's lead in mov(when there aren't archers even), his sight ability is h4x useful, he opens doors and steals chests where others can't, and that he steals a lot of useful things off the enemies body for h4xing your units. The only thing that brings down Colm's use is Rennac in the chapter that he joins. Just the chapter that Rennac joins Colm is still doing tons of stuff thief-wise, whereas Vanessa's flier utility is actually a bad thing because there are archers there and no terrain. So in the chapter that Colm has this weight on his shoulders he's still of more use than Vanessa. When does Colm's use come in handy on other chapters? Chapter 3: -Chests(Javelin, Iron Sword, Iron Lance, Hand Axe) -1 Key -Doors x2 -1 Key -Stealing(Antitoxin, Pure Water) Chapter 4: -Stealing(Vulnerary) Chapter 6: -Fog Of War Chapter 7: -Stealing(Energy Ring) Chapter 8: -Chests(Silver Sword, Elysian Whip, Angelic Robe) -Doors x2 -1 Key Chapter 10 Er -Stealing? Chapter 11 Er -Chests(Restore, Short Spear, Secret Book) -2 Keys -Fog Of War Chapter 14 Er -Doors x7 -4 Keys -Chests(Guilding Ring, Spear, Hammerne, Swordreaver, Dragon Spear, Energy Ring) -1 Key -Stealing? Chapter 9 Eph -Doors x2 -2 Keys -Chests(Restore, 2500g, Ocean Seal) -1 Keys Chapter 11 Eph -Fog Of War Chapter 13 Eph -Stealing(Energy Ring) Chatper 14 Eph -Doors x4 -4 Keys -Chests(Guilding Ring, Halberd, Hammerne, Angelic Robe, Spear) -1 Key Chapter 15 -Hidden Items(Warp, Body Ring, Silence, Wyrmslayer, Killer Bow, Swiftsole, Eclipse, Metis Tome, Silver Card) -Stealing(Elixir, Fili Shield, Hoplon Gaurd) Chapter 16 -Doors x3 -1 Key -Chests(Tomahawk, Talismen, Knight Crest, 5000g) -1 Key -Stealing(Vulnerary, Lockpick x2 Elixir, Red Gem) Chapter 17 -Stealing(Elixir) Chapter 19 -Fog Of War -Chests(Rune Sword, Fenrir, Speedwing, Fortify, 5000g, Bolting) -0 Keys -Stealing(Vulnerary x6, Lockpick x3, Goddess Icon) Chapter 21 -Doors x2 -2 Keys -Chests(Angelic Robe, Master Seal) -1 Key To even begin to claim that Vanessa somehow counterweights all of this with the very few things that she can net you WHILE there is an alternative is laughable. Colm does not always have an alternative to using him, and things like FOW are massively easier thanks to him. Before considering that he can fight he beats Vanessa soundly with all of this stuff. I didn't even include everything he steals because I don't know, but I can assume what I've missed is helpful. He helps out your team combatively with weapons, stat boosters, promotional items, and his ability to steal from the bosses in chapter 15. > Vanessa combatively. Then you just have to add in that he can fight and Vanessa has no shot even if she is beating him.
There's exacly zero more soldiers than brigands on chapter 5. >___>
What I see here is the lack of C Neimi and weight placement. With B Neimi Colm wins against Brigands and Fighters, which total 11 enemies out of 21. Vanessa is most definitely not raping Colm in raw offense, and Colm is most definitely raping Vanessa in team offense.
Neimi starts off being able to only attack on one phase, yes. However this isn't much of a problem because enemies are scarce and you most likely won't have that many enemies around you on the enemy phase anyways, in addition to you having enough allies to be in front of her in the case of enemies still bein around. So she's perfectly usable for the first bit of the game, and her stats end up being some of the best later on. Now it would be bad if she promoted to Sniper because when there are tons of enemies she still wouldn't be able to counter-attack on the enemy phase, but instead she becomes a Ranger. A Ranger has swords allowing them to counter close range and raep everything without a problem. Neimi has a good enough chance of being used on a larger team, especially because it's a larger team and you only have 33 characters to chose from anyways.
Smaller teams mean that you have less spots on your team allowing Neimi to support Colm and just sit back three squares away from him. Not being able to protect her is rather false except a few lategame chapters in which you could of just promoted her so she has swords. Smaller teams can still cap out how many units you bring to a chapter, and the only thing that really changes is who you feed the experience to. And because smaller teams are generally less efficient, they hold less weight than a larger team. There's a good chance Neimi is on a larger team, and a decent one she'll be there while you have a smaller team.
Colm's offense is only bad if you don't level him. You can't make an argument against Colm explaining why he gets less experience assuming he gets less experience. Looped arguments make absolutely no sense. If he gains that experience his offense is definitely not bad, and since even average offense >>>> bad offense you are likely going to be giving him that experience. If you're saying that Colm's offense is bad early on, then you're definitely lying. He has some of the best, the best offense in his joining chapter and he remains good thanks to doubling enemies whereas the majority of your team cannot. When his experience boost starts making the difference in levels you'll see that Colm is doing good more than enough of the time to keep his level lead.
All of them are very minor leads, and the B support isn't a lead at all. As supports build, thanks to Colm's supporters being near him farrr more than Vanessa's supporters are near her and the fact that Colm has instant supports means that he'll have better offense than it seems. Even if he is losing by the small ammount that it appears to be then he is still beating Vanessa for overall team offense because he makes it so some of your units are promoting sooner than they would elsewise. Later promoting units means quite a bit worse offense. And unlike Colm's answer to raw offense, Vanessa's has no answer to this.
Why no B Neimi? You can bring 9 units and Neimi is far from suck, especially with B Colm. You don't exactly have that many other units you'd bring over her, so putting there anyways is fine. Colms Atk +2 He also steals an energy ring last chapter, which we can just add to Colm to measure this. Surely it's not always going to him, but it's always adding 2 atk to your team. Though, I do suppose that he's a good choice for it. Colms Atk +4 Colms Atk: 19 He's effectively two-shotting everything aside from the Knights.
12/0!?!?!?!? WTF? How in the hell does she gain 11 levels over that period of time? It's not like her offense was anything special; Colm even beats her against some enemies when he doesn't have the level lead. If you want to try and use that "Vanessa flies ahead and kills of enemies" argument (which doesn't even apply all the time because of archers/axe users that raep her) then I ask that you take away those supports of hers too.
Yeah, and guess how much HP a level 9 Moulder heals? 16.4 HP with a heal staff. Both, oh I say both, of your units heal exactly 0 HP, because they're offensive units. Difference! Difference! You have quite a few other offensive units while you only have one other healer ... one other inferior healer at that. There are units that are superior to Vanessa and Lute at this point, Seth most notably, so they are not the best at their task whereas Moulder is.
Throughout the entire, entire game aside from this little point Colm is gaining more experience, and he's still reaching enemies, while being different enemies, very easily. And again I go back to stress that Vanessa cannot move into a horde of enemies without having a chance of dying, and because I don't like risking death, that's not happening. So when Vanessa does fly off to kill an enemy it's not like it's a whole bunch, most likely just a sole enemy or two. During the time she takes to kill those enemies Colm is either A ) Doing other useful things or B ) Fighting off other enemies gaining more experience. Because Vanessa tends to have to do other useful (not as useful, though), that's counterweighted. Colm is gaining more experience throughout the game up until a single, just one, only one, chapter in the lategame where Vanessa gains equal experience but can kill faster. Now, lategame, that means for the majority of the game Vanessa won't have had this nice little boost and Colm's level lead will be that much more on hers.
If Colm still gains more experience per kill, which is very likely, then he is the one finishing off other peoples kills and not vice-versa. Then there's all those instances that he does one-round, in which case he doesn't even need to have another unit around him. After promotion Colm still manages to gain good experience.
Well if we still went by our comparison Colm is the sure winner because of = raw offense and >>>>>>>>>>> team offense. If we went by your comparison Vanessa is >>> Colm in offense and Colm is still >>>>>>>>>>> in team offense. Team offense > raw offense, Colm > Vanessa in offense. Either comparison I still believe that Colm is overall better, so whatever.
If Lute has the ability to follow, so does the rest of your team. So, if this is the flier utility that you speak of, I can honestly say it's worth absolutely nothing.
Bosses generally have ranged weapons too, and the ones that don't are shit easy anyways. How much of a win is this? Not much.
Colm has the ability of removing Caellach's Hoplon gaurd letting a unit like Joshua kill him off real fast. Or, you could just, you know, kill them. They are generally the last enemy you face and your units are more than strong enough to kill them in one turn without suffering casualties. To take the time to make them switch weapons just means taking another, unnecessary turn.
Whoa. Whoa! Lute may have Excalibur, but you still have six other legendaries out there for taking out bosses, and then you have units that just raep bosses anyways. Lute does not have boss kills set just for her, hell, you might as well give Colm the kill with Audhulma or maybe Moulder the kill with Slayer. Lute isn't gaining massive experience off of bosses, and Colm is definitely gaining more off of every single other enemy, so for sure, for sure Colm will have a level lead on Lute. Then you add in early game where Colm can counter well without dying whereas Lute takes a lot of damage and is targetted a lot making her not be able to frontline. Colm gains more experience on the enemy phase, offseting what she could of gotten on the player phase even if those boss kills were hers for the taking. Now with your comparison, another thing is off aside from the levels. That's the fact that Colm is using an Iron Sword when he can just as easily equip a Silver Sword or a Killing Edge and put himself far closer to Lute in offense, perhaps surpassing her in a few occasions. And then even now Lute's AS is rather pathetic, so she won't be doubling the faster, harder enemies where Colm will. Colm with a stronger weapon is doing tons of damage, definitely surpassing Lute at those times, making him better for the situation. The units that Lute shines against are the ones that are slow and have similar Def and Res. While these are likely, the enemies in the game are generally faster than others, so they don't outnumber the amount of enemies that Colm is better against severely, and when Colm is winning, he's really winning.
? Lute has more mobility on promotion, less mobility before promotion. I'd say those cancel out each other well enough. Staffs? Moulder has staffs. Moulder is wayyyy better with staffs. Both are healing for enough, and Moulder can use the other useful staffs when you need them where Lute has to rely on other means for fixing the situation. Actually, I want to do a run down of how useful Moulder's staffs are: Recover: Eh, not too great; only heals more HP than necessary. Physic: Godly staff. Great for when you have a unit doing something solo and can't have a healer with them. Units like Vanessa flying off can do it without risking death. So ultimately there are times that it is thanks to our team that your flier can do what they do. >>> Barrier: Good for making units with lower Res be able to fight magic units. Whatever Res lead that your team had on us is a bit less apparent when considering Moulder's staff ability and Colm's thieving ability for the first few chapters. Rescue: Kind of worthless when you have Physic. Warp: Ftw. Warp gets those units that actually can survive a situation to where they need to be. A unit like Gilliam could benefit greatly from this, as well as the entire team. Hammerne: Good for when you want to SPAM a legendary weapon or two. Sleep/Silence/Berserk: This is generally only good on the really hard enemies, although it's good for countering enemy status staff users. Berserk is also really good for killing of enemies that would either take too long to get to or can attack long range.
First, I'd like to point out that Moulder is a staff user, and not only a healer. And if you only had one of each type of unit, then surely fighting is more important than using staffs. However because this is a team game not using 1 fighter is only losing a small percent of your fighting utility. Losing your 1 healer means that you just lost 100% of your healing utility.
Not quite. On the enemy phase is obviously where the staff user shines the most. On the player phase their use is healing somebody so they can go preform some odd function. On the enemy phase is when what they may have done on the player phase before comes into play; your unit surviving. Even an alive 'bad' unit is >>>> a dead good unit.
If you used said items then you are missing out on attacking, and if, hypothetically, attacking is > healing then you are taking the inferior route. But seeing as you need that healing to survive, you're pretty much saying that dying + killing a few enemies is > Not dying + killing more enemies. Which is not right. Also Vulneraries heal less than Moulder can, and Elixirs make all your money go away. Just a single use is enough to take a powerful weapon away from you. Moulder healing saves you a powerful weapon? H4x.
Just going by what you said, we're at 2. Units better than Colm at thieving in chapter 8: 0 Units better than Moulder at using staffs in chapter 8: 0 Units that have the ability to thieve in chapter 8: Colm Units that have the ability to heal in chapter 8: Moulder, Natasha *ahem* Units that have the ability to fight in chapter 8: Eirika, Seth, Franz, Gilliam, Vanessa, Ross, Garcia, Neime, Colm, Lute, Artur, Joshua, Forde, Kyle, Ephraim. And I'll claim that Ephraim and possibly a few of the other units are better than Vanessa and Lute at this point.
What? No, durability matters for everyone because if your healers get killed too easily than it will cause your frontliners to form less desireable formations being less efficient. And Moulder ends up quite a bit better than Natasha, so the difference is most definitely there.
Whatttt? When did we decide on hypothetical ranks? I only thought that we wanted units that could preform the most efficiently, and the other stuff is just side bonuses. And wtf at comparing both of your units to our one. Anyways, survival is >>>> in efficiency. Efficiency is obviously cut down massively if a unit dies, and the fact that Moulder is making sure that unit doesn't die is too win. Vanessa and Lute may get you there a fraction of a chapter faster than COLMOULDER, but Moulder can save you many chapters in just one turn. Our team raeps in funds ... do we need to debate that? Colm getting the team more money means more splurging on expensive weapons letting you be a bit more chill with how you traverse through the map.
froflz. You just debated that attacking is > healing, which I still don't even believe. But assuming that it is, if Moulder is like, what, a fifth as good as them on the battlefield he's still winning because he gets to stack those two things against Vanessa and Lutes. Vanessa and Lute can't just use offense as an argument for everything, because even a bunch of losses can overtake a single win.
Moulder full well has the ability to promote on chapter 12 at level 15ish, and with his experience boost grab a level lead and still do well enough statistically for most circumstance WHILE still having massive staff utility. I don't see how something optional like promoting later can possibly be a detriment. And then on larger teams he can very well have a level lead on Vanessa and Lute if they want to promote at level 20. Unlike Moulder, promoting before then will end up in them gaining a lot less experience as well as getting slightly worse stats. Moulder is still gaining fast. So yeahhh, level lead--.
I don't feel like typing much anymore. Vanessa: Flier Lute: Backline Colm: Thief Moulder: Staff user Flier is far ahead of team Backliner is back of team Vanessa isn't near Lute when preforming what needs to be done Thief is front of team unless chests Moulder is back of team They can stand right in front of/behind each other Thieving needs to be done. Moulder comes along. They support while looting stuffs, and you have injured units follow Moulder so he still gains experience. The summerizations are usually used at the end of the debate when everyone has actually debated it. I'd counter them but I kind of already did that. <___<;; |
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8:02 PM Nov 25
