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| Reikken(ye) vs. Solide; Garret vs. Noah | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 22 2007, 07:17 PM (415 Views) | |
| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Jul 22 2007, 07:17 PM Post #1 |
 
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HM onlyz, 3 posts each, omg, omg, omg, omg, omg, omg, omg, komg, gkasnmglknasglj;ah gldkag kslt wg439t4iwg9ar hiszdfibjkzx cbm bj .asfuiaubg0824yg wvofasb5124780 lesse go Who first? Someone else can RN to see who goes first. |
| this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER | |
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| Reikken | Jul 22 2007, 07:18 PM Post #2 |
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ñ* |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| Reikken | Jul 30 2007, 02:53 AM Post #3 |
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Well, when Garret joins, Noah is either capped out at 20 or liek at 19 or something. He can't promote until the end of ch 16 either way due to a lack of Knight Crests. 19 Noah, A Treck, B Fir Iron Lance: 23.6 atk, 12.6 AS, 18.0 crit, 112.0 hit,,, 36.0 hp, 12.6 def, 4.2 res, 53.0 avo base Garret Iron Axe: 28.5 atk, 11.2 AS, 37.5 crit, 102.5 hit,,, 54.8 hp, 10.0 def, 5.0 res, 35.9 avo Noah, with his full supports--and nearly full offense from them as well--to Garret's none, still manages to get owned in offense. 5 atk and 20 crit >>> 1 AS and 10 hit. On defense, It's basically hp vs avoid. Noah's avoid is none too high, so it's not reliable at all, but hp is always 100% reliable, so Garret takes the win there. Additionally, Garret has the ability to move onto peaks for their h4x defensive bonuses (and his joining chapter has lots of it), while Noah can only manage forests, so when terrain comes into play, Noah often actually loses avoid slightly, but Garret still has his massive hp lead, so he wins by a landslide. So Garret is w1nning when he joins. Oukkeiz, Garret's supports. He'll probably be getting Gonzales and Geese. And they work amazingly well together. You can even have them all move onto peaks or something. Like in chapter 21, commonly deemed as one of the hardest chapters in the game with hoards of wyverns, the second most common terrain type after "Plain" is "Peak". A bunch of Berserkers on peaks = lolrape. This chapter becomes a joke. Oh yeah, let's check it out. 12 Garret, B Gonzales, B Geese Killer Axe: 39.5 atk, 14.0 AS, 88.9 crit, 123.9 hit,,, 60** hp, 12.6 def, 6.5 res, 53.1 avo (93.1 on peak) 20/10 Noah, A Treck, B Fir Killer Lance: 31.6 atk, 17.6 AS, 51.2 crit, 132.0 hit,,, 46.5 hp, 17.6 def, 8.2 res, 67.0 avo Omgz, wow. Massive atk and crit ftw. Screw doubling. Just kill it in one hit.  And Noah's doubling ability isn't that much better anyway. The window for Noah doubling and Garret not is pretty small, and even when Noah doubles and Garret doesn't, Garret's chance of landing a crit > Noah's. Garret's offense >>> Noah's. Now, 13-14 hp + w1n terrain vs 4 def, 2 res, and 14 avo. When there's peaks around, like in ch 21, Garret obviously wins. When there's not, Noah wins by a bit. |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Aug 18 2007, 11:52 AM Post #4 |
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First, Noah recruits Fir. He’s the only unit who can recruit Fir. Not only is Fir >>> both Noah and Garret, but she’s a great character, as well, so this is doing a lot more for the team than Garret can ever claim.
Speaking of having full Supports, Noah is benefiting his Support partners at this point, whereas Garret is not. Noah has, in fact, been doing this for quite a while. Advantage: Noah. Now, Garret does not win offense. Normally, 5 Atk and 20 Crit would indeed be >>> 1 AS and 10 Hit. However, in this case, the Hit is a huge problem for Garret, as enemies in this game have high Avoid. “But Noah’s is only 10 higher!” No, it’s quite a bit higher than just 10. Noah has Lances and Swords (soon to add Axes) vs. just Axes. That means greater weapon triangle control. That also means more weapon selection (e.g., Slim Lance and Killer Lance have more accuracy than Iron Lance, but Iron Axe is Garret’s most accurate weapon, so this is as good as he gets). How big of a difference is it, exactly? Taking some enemy samples: Lvl 14 Merc has 42 Avoid: Garret w/Iron Axe has 50.5% (51% real) to hit. Omgh8. Noah w/Iron Lance has 80% (92.2% real) to hit. Nice. Lvl 1 Valkyrie has 49 Avoid: Garret w/Iron Axe has 53.5% (57% real) to hit. Omgh8. Noah w/Iron Lance has 63% (73% real) to hit. Omgh8, but >> Garret’s. Noah w/Iron Sword has 85% (95.7% real) to hit. Nice. Lvl 5 Sniper has 34 Avoid: Garret w/Iron Axe has 68.5% (80% real) to hit. Meh. Noah w/Iron Lance has 78% (90.5% real) to hit. Nice. Lvl 1 Paladin (Steel Sword) has 31 Avoid: Garret w/Iron Axe has 61.5% (70% real) to hit. Omgh8. Noah w/Iron Lance has 91% (98.5% real) to hit. Nice. In all these instances, Garret fails massively. 70-80 or less% to hit the enemies? PHAIL. When the consequences are so insane—0 damage—it’s obviously bad. The chance that he’ll miss one out of two attacks against a Sniper/Mage/Bishop is already 36%, which is massive. Meanwhile, Noah can safely have 90 or above % chance to hit all these enemies. And there’re even more than this—Nomads are all over the place in Sacae, Myrmidons exist, Pegs and Falcoknights have big Avoid (and lots of them have Axereavers). Against all of these enemies, Garret phails miserably. Because of this and the fact that you have to Hit before you can Crit, Garret's Crit is also not a full 20 over Noah's. Additionally, Killer Lance has more Accuracy than Iron Lance whereas Killer Axe has the same Accuracy as Iron Axe, so when both really want to crit, Garret’s Crit lead is diminished even further. Then bosses in this game have massive Avoid, so Noah’s lead matters there too. It’s basically more damage vs. more hit. Both have their advantages. The consequences of not hitting, however, are worse than the consequences of doing less damage but still hitting. Noah is winning offense.
No. You forgot that Noah has a Def lead of 2, even at that level, in addition to greater WT control. Unlike HP, a set amount of Def will work as an advantage per blow. At best, Garret’s HP lead will allow him to take one less hit to die (and not even that a lot of the time), and then you apply Noah’s Avoid lead—17 (27-37 w/WTA vs. WTN/WTD) Avoid is quite a bit thanks to the dual RN system. For example, taking one accurate enemy and one inaccurate one: Level 18 Merc has 112 Hit/22 Atk: 8.4 @ 49% (48.51%) to Noah, kills in 5 13 @ 86.1% (96.22%) to Garret, kills in 5 They’re dying in the same number of hits, but the Merc has almost an ensured hit on Garret versus less than a 50-50 chance on Noah. Noah w1ns by a huge amount. Level 16 Fighter has 74 Hit/30 Atk: 16.4 @ 21% (9.03%) to Noah, kills in 3 19.4 @ 38.1% (29.26%) to Garret, kills in 3 They’re again dying in the same number of hits, but the Fighter has a better chance to hit Garret than it has to hit Noah. The differences in % chance to be hit are also not marginal in either case, if you want to bring that up. The chance that the Fighter will hit Noah 2 or more times out of 3 attacks is less than 3%. The chance that the Fighter will do the same to Garret is ~20.67%. Even when Garret manages to survive an extra hit due to his HP, the likelihood of his getting attacked, say, 4 times is still greater than the likelihood of Noah getting attacked 3 times in most cases, so Noah still wins. Noah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Garret defensively. Noah wins offense. Noah wins defense. Noah benefits Supporters. Noah > Garret at this point. In a chapter, Noah is going to promote, and then he’ll get +1 Move, +Axes and +promotion bonuses, while still benefiting Support partners, so his victory over Garret is going to be even greater. 20/1 Noah, A Treck/B Fir w/Iron Axe Offense: 26.9 Atk, 14.9 AS, 112.4 Hit, 19.5 Crit Defense: 58 Avoid, 14.9 Def, 7.3 Res, 39.8 HP 20/2 Garret w/Iron Axe Offense: 29 Atk, 11.5 AS, 103.4 Hit, 37.9 Crit Defense: 36.6 Avoid, 10.1 Def, 5.0 Res, 55.5 HP Offensively, Noah’s 3.4 AS and massive Hit > Garret’s 18.4 Crit and 2.1 Atk. Garret’s Hit is still not reliable, whereas Noah has a much greater weapon selection to add to his Hit when need be. The Crit lead, for this reason, is also not very big, and then the AS is useful for doubling (in which case Noah’s Crit is higher again). Defensively, 21.4 Avoid, 4.8 Def, 2.3 Res, 3.4 AS (for not getting doubled), and WTC > 15.7 HP. Then he has 2 Move. Noah’s win midgame is undeniable, in both the first comparison and the second.
Peaks are not anything spectacular. Garret’s movement speed through Peaks is abysmal, first of all. Second, the enemies that are even _on_ Peaks are limited to flyers. Flyers have h4x Move, so they are going to get to Garret before Garret even reaches the Peaks. Or, they’ll go around him for someone with worse durability. Even if Peaks _were_ something amazing, let’s examine some chapter layouts. Chapters without Peaks after Garret joins: 16, 16x, 17IL, 18IL, 19SA, 20IL, 20SA, 20xIL, 21x, 22, 24, Final. Chapters with Peaks: 15, 17SA, 18SA, 19IL, 20xSA, 21, and 23 We’re already down to less than half. However, in 15, Garret joins a ways into the Chapter, so he doesn’t get much use of those Peaks. 17SA is basically Mages and Nomads. To use Peaks effectively here, Garret would need to equip the 50-Hit Hand Axe, so that’s out. In 18SA, the Peaks are in the NE corner, far removed from the enemies. A similar situation exists in 20xSA and 23. So we’re left with 19IL, 21, and part of 15. About 2-3 chapters if you go Ilia, 1-2 chapters if you go Sacae. So, lol @ Peaks putting Garret above Noah defensively. If Noah wins when there are no Peaks around, and Garret wins when there are, like you say, guess who wins overall? But...that’s not it. AS matters more than just offensively, and, in your final comparison, you had Noah with 17.6 AS to Garret’s 14.0. Something must have 21-22 AS to double Noah, but only 18 to double Garret. Myrmidons, Mercenaries, Heroes, Nomads, Nomad Troopers, to name a few. Quite a lot of enemies. Also, in case you feel like bringing it up, the AS difference is always this big; this defensive gap isn’t just exclusive to the lategame. It’s ~3.4 from the moment Noah promotes and it stays similar until the end.
No, not on the same playthrough. If Geese and Gonzales are both in play, it’s a good idea to play Echidna (one because you’ll be going A Route, and two because they form a nice Support triangle). Geese prefers Echidna and Lalum over Garret, and Gonzales prefers Treck and Echidna over Garret. All of those Supports end faster than any Support with Garret. At best, Garret manages to snag one of the two. He won’t get both most of the time.
“Work amazingly well together”? They’re all low-Hit axemen. What happens when there’s a Sword user? Outside of Peaks, which are rare, their usefulness combined is nothing to be awed at. Having Garret, Geese, and Gonzales all fight on Peaks is not a good strategy. Geese and Gonzales don’t Support each other, and if they’re all on Peaks, other Supporters likely won’t be near them, which is disadvantageous to Geese’s and Gonzales’ other Supporters (and to Geese and Gonzales themselves, as they lose Crit). Unless these three units are taking on the entire chapter by themselves (which is unreasonable due to things such as EXP Rank and depriving your other units of levels), this isn’t a good thing. Speaking of them not being the only units in the chapter, the Wyverns can kill your weaker dudes since they have massive Movement, and there’s a total of 81 one of them, so this chapter is far from being a “joke.” The Berserkers can’t intercept them if they miss or don’t kill, either, since they have like, 2 Mov on those Peaks. Anyway, even if Garret were to get _both_ Geese and Gonzales (which is unlikely, as stated above), the Geese Support is a 1+1, so it’s massively, uber slow, and the Gonzales is a 20+1, so it’s almost as slow. Going at a rate of 9 turns per chapter starting on Chapter 15, he’d get to double B with Geese and Gonzales by near the last chapter in the game, lol.
Why does Garret have a level lead of two on Noah? Noah was promoting by the end of 16; I wouldn’t expect Garret to gain more than one level by then, and even that’s likely dissipated thanks to the presence of an EXP Rank. Anyway, taking away B Geese leaves Garret with -10 Hit, -2 Atk, -10 Crit, and -5 Avo. Now Noah _does_ have a higher Crit chance when he doubles and Garret doesn’t. Lvl 9 Sniper (35 Avo/11 Luck) has ~76% chance to be critted at least once by Noah on a double and ~71% chance to be critted by Garret. Let’s take a count: Noah will double: Knights, Generals, Mamkutes, Shamans, Druids, Berserkers, Archers, Snipers, Mages, Sages, Fighters, Warriors, Monks, Bishops. Garret will double: Knights, Generals. gogogogo FE6 enemies. Since when is “the window for Noah doubling and Garret not doubling” small? Noah also wins Crit against Sword users, where he has WTA and Garret has WTD. Those are: Myrmidons, Swordmasters, Mercenaries, Heroes, Nomad Troopers, Falcoknights (and Wyvern Lords that never use Swords, so meh). Noah still has his Hit lead, as well. Garret continually has problems hitting things (though some of that is softened now). In this last comparison, Noah is still the winner. He has his Aviod/Def/Res/AS (for not getting doubled) leads to put him over Garret defensively (who can only manage a victory on Peaks, as you yourself said, and those are uncommon), is still benefiting more Supporters, has 2 Move, and either wins or ties offense thanks to more doubling and more Hit. Winning offense the majority of the game > at best tying it near the end. Winning defense the whole game > nothing. Recruiting Fir > nothing. 2 Move > nothing. Soez, Noah > Garret. |
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1:25 AM Nov 25
