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| Kamai vs Inui | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 23 2007, 12:04 PM (280 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Jul 23 2007, 12:04 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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this should be loads of fun lulz |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Kamaitachi | Jul 25 2007, 01:37 AM Post #2 |
Classy
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I really, really hate opening debates. And I don't want to be all gay about it and write you a sentence either, so I'm going to try and open kinda properly. I'm going to go ahead and draw from Erk's 20/10 stats, that you provided in your debate with Linoud. Then I'm going to draw you to this one point right here: 10.6 Def. Let's say he does get that A Priscilla, B Pent support, that's still 13.6 Def. I'm going to go ahead and say that Erk can, at best, survive a punch from a 7 year old, pigtailed girl with thick glasses and braces. If said 7 year old, pigtailed girl with thick glasses and braces tried to punch Vaida, Vaida would smash the girl's face in, go all Vlad on her tiny assailant, then roast the girl before feeding it to her wyvern. However, at 20/10, with a natural evasion of roughly 53.4, he's a pretty evasive unit. If he comes up against WTD, which means he's facing a dark-wielder, he's still got 21.2 Res. This is all before, supports, of course. So it seems that he's never, ever going to get hit, right? I'm going to go ahead and say that this is FE7's hard mode. This isn't personal experience, but somehow, even with the chances of being hit at 20%, you somehow still end up being hit. This is still a percentage game we're playing, and if you're just not lucky, you're just not lucky. And evidently, when you're not lucky, Erk ends up a pretty corpse with a few holes or gashes here and there. While I doubt that would stop someone like, say, Serra. It would definitely stop me. Contrary to popular belief, I don't actually like dead bodies. (They do seem to pile up around me though.) As for Vaida, her evasion may seem to be shit, due to base 14 speed and 11 base luck...but it's not as bad as you think: 39 is not terrible. It's certainly not Erk's level of evasion, or most other peoples', but Vaida has something to make up for that: A base defense of 21. Vaida joins with more defense than most people will see in the entire game. When she joins, she's basically a general with wings. Low speed, but massive defense and offense. 20 base strength is no laughing matter at, either. Not to mention her Con stat, of 12. This means most weapons she wields will be wielded with relative ease. If ever she needs to trade a little power for accuracy, she already has decent access to swords. Erk may be great at doubling enemies, but so are a lot of other units in this game. Very few can crush them in the manner that Vaida does. Why? Well look at it like this: Erk can do a lot of damage to low-res units, because he's ignoring their defense. Vaida doesn't so much ignore their defense as she does plow right through it. Even if you're up against a gaggle of magic users, Vaida has enough skill to hit, and can OHKO enemy magic users before they lay a finger on her. There are no skills in this game, so they won't ever magically attack first. Now, as for Vaida being attacked by magic users, fine. She'll take a hit due to her lower evade. But what's this? A base of 43 HP? I think she'll be fine. There's no way an enemy mage will 2hko her, not with that HP safety net. If there are a gaggle of mages, then there's trouble, but at that point, they'd all have to crowd around her. As for Bow users, they will pose to be a bit of a problem. However, for the most part, Vaida will be out of range of enemy bow users on their enemy turn, unless you're really, really dumb. You're proud of your fire emblem skills, and I doubt you would do something that dumb. The thing about archers is, is that you can move a flyer into their range and attack them, and they can't counter. If, say, Vaida doesn't kill it, then chances are you have another unit who can. So Vaida's main weaknesses are magic users and archers. Nomad troopers and nomads seem to be most problematic for her, as they have her range, and can damage her greatly. Erk, however, seems to have problems with most units attacking him. Sure, sure, he's going to be just behind your front row, but that's not always the case. In earlier maps, there are times when you've only a few units to take into battle with you. If you take Erk, you can't always guarantee that he'll be behind the frontlines. Enemies can slip by. The biggest problem with Erk, is that his high evasion doesn't come until later on. Earlier on, it'll be a bit of a problem keeping him alive if he gets exposed. Why? Base 2 defense, for one. He's got evasion, and he's got forests and stuff, but this is no guarantee that he won't take damage. I'm by no means saying that you shouldn't use him. After all, he's your only anima user for a bit. He is not, however, your only offensive spellcaster. Utlimately, his competition in the anima department will come from Pent and Priscilla. Vaida may not be your only flyer when she joins...in fact...she's one of the last flyers to join. That should not count her out of the running, just because you seem to be favouring Heath or Florina at the moment. Luckily, she joins only slightly underlevelled, and can be upped to the rest of your group in no time at all. She's no liability when she joins, that's for sure. As for Erk's healing ability: I'm not going to deny how useful that is. Rescuing is useful too, but it's not nearly as useful as Healing. Healing should take a primary role, whereas rescuing should be a last ditch effort (or to help Matthew after a steal and you don't want him attacked) However, you do seem to like the fact that Erk is a doublemachine. Well, on your player turns, Erk will have to give up his offensive abilities to help out on the backlines. Is it useful in a pinch? Sure. Vaida has to give up her offensive abilities in order to rescue as well. Is it useful in a pinch? Sure. My point is: they both have their uses. Healing is more useful than Rescuing, but healing is also done more often. Therefore, Erk may be giving up more of his offensive turns in order to heal, if, say, your primary healer is busy elsewhere or with someone else. Vaida will have more opporunity to be an offensive player, whereas Erk may have to rely on being a defensive, healing, counter unit. I like it when my strategies involve moving forwards towards the end of the stage, rather than sitting back and waiting for enemies to come to me. Now, here's another mini point: I see you're favouring, from your debate with Linoud, A Priscilla, B Pent, in terms of supports. That's a lot of anima magic and staves. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It seems to be a very good thing to me, after all. You've got three anima magic users, who can really dent enemy lines, and then they can step back and heal, possibly even taking turns or in a rotation, so that they all work together. What I don't see, is how Erk even got those supports in the first place. Pent I can understand, because his other choices are pretty shoddy: Fiora is mediocre. Hawkeye is probably not being fielded, and Canas may very well not be worth it. Erk and Pent are probably next to each other too...as they're back rank units, right? I kinda don't think so, to be quite honest. Erk and Pent fulfill the exact same roles, and like in most battles, you're forced to take on a couple fronts at the same time, it doesn't strike me as practical. I'd have Pent on one side, and Erk on the other (if I hadn't replaced Erk with Pent from the moment Pent joined...) Pent is just fine on his own without supports. Erk definitely wants the support though, especially to up his defensive parameters. So...I don't see the point in B-supporting them if you may not even keep them together most of the time. Now, of course, it's useful when it comes to, say, the final chapter, or the Limstella Chapter, when you've mostly got one path at a time to follow, but when you've got to split units into smaller groups, this means you're sticking two anima/healers together, leaving one group severely lacking in that. The same kind of goes for Priscilla in that regards. They fulfill the same roles, and you won't need more than one. As for other healers and offensive casters in the groups, why not throw in Lucius or Canas instead of putting two anima's together. Such a formation would provide you with some versatility, wouldn't it? Now, one of my main problems with that group is that you've chosen Priscilla. I'm going to go ahead and ask you what happened to Raven, Lucius, or Guy. Where were they when Erk snagged her from them? As for Vaida, it might appear that she won't be good for any supports, but at the very least, she could snag up a couple C-supports. It might not be your traditional A-B, format, but I'm thinking She could snag at the very least: C- Heath, C-Harken, for a bit of stat boostage. Now, you'll probably ask: Well don't Heath and Harken fulfill the same roles as she does? Well yes. But at the same time, when you spread out your frontliners, you spread them out so they can kill things. Splitting healers is harder to do than splitting frontline melee units, because you have more frontline melee units. It'd be easier to keep Heath, Harken and Vaida around each other on larger maps than it will be to keep Pent, Priscilla and Erk. Um, I think I've opened enough here, so let's move on to something a little different: Vaida is all woman. That is one fierce, ferocious woman. Now, herein is a little conundrum for you though: If Vaida is all woman, how then is she more of a man than Erk can ever dream of being? It's simple. Erk is a little bitch who likes nothing more than to dance around attacks and then not touch them. He prefers to attack from a distance, where it's 'safer'. Vaida will more than likely get up in her enemy's phase, throttle them, kill them in very painful, very brutal ways, throw them on the ground, hop off of her wyvern, squat down and piss on the corpse, hop back on her wyvern, then spit on the corpse, then stab it one more time for good measure. Atop that, Vaida has some fierce leg strength. I would know: She's riding a wyvern. Erk probably has little boy legs. Vaida could go thunderthighs on Erk and crush his little chicken neck. Erk likes books. Books are for smart people. Vaida likes stabbing things. Stabbing things > Books. Don't try to cover it up. As much as I enjoyed Harry Potter 7, I much more enjoy stabbing people with pointy things. It's human nature. We learned to stab before we learned to read. So in conclusion: Vaida is more of a man than Erk is, and more of a woman than he'll ever have. |
   
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| +Ema Skye | Jul 26 2007, 04:57 PM Post #3 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Nub, you forgot he has 39.2 HP at that level, which is h4x for a magic user. He can take a hit fine from a dude with a weapon, and just swat the little girl away. Vaida wouldn't double attack the girl, however, and her Atk isn't high enough for her to OHKO things...
Well, supports exist, and with them he has 70.4 Evd with them, which is awesome. His Res is also gr8, so magic users don't scare him at all except Druids with Luna, which are really rare. So what if it's HM? That doesn't mean the RNG is different. 20 Hit is 8% Real Hit, which is pathetic. Actually, Erk's Evd is very reliable. When he does get hit, he's fine. He has fine HP and good Def after supports. He's one of the more durable magic users of FE. Unless there are enemies with over 50 Atk running around, he's not getting killed unless you're a moron.l
39 Evd is beyond terrible at the end of Chapter 29. Even your slower units with lower LUK like Oswin will have 20+ Evd on her thanks to supports. She probably has the worst Evd in the entire game. Wallace would even have more if you used him. And a base Res of 6 lol. Oh, wait, my bad. You went and said it was HHM but didn't include HM boosts except for Spd. She has 22 Def and 7 Res. You're welcome for making your unit look better.
Vaida also joins with less Evd than everyone else ever, and really terrible Res. She's a General with wings, but she has less Atk Spd, less HP, less Evd, and well...Oswin's got her kinda raped everywhere but Hit because she has swords, but he hits anyways due to enemies having even worse Evd than Vaida. She only has 14 Spd. Units with really bad Con can equip the heavier weapons and still be faster. Btw, it's 21 base Str in HHM.
Yeah, Erk is great at doubling and lots of other people are too. Except Vaida. She sucks massively at it from start to finish. Vaida doesn't crush anything. She's not OHKOing anything but unpromoted magic users that every other unit rapes really easily, including Erk even though he's attacking Res. 21 Str isn't plowing through any defensive enemies at all. Not when he has no supports for Atk or Crit to add to it. Erk can one-round something like a Warrior with a Thunder tome while Vaida would need to use something like a Silver Sword and actually have the Spd to double to kill it. Okay, so she can attack one magic user and rape it, while Erk can bait them all in and kill all of them at once.
Those Druids in Sands of Time will two-hit KO her and they have a very low chance of missing. She's the worst unit in the entire game for taking on magic users. She has a combination of terrible Res, mediocre HP for a melee unit, and terrible Evd. 43 HP is only 4 more than Erk's, and he's a magic user. Lulz. Oops, she has 46 HP in HHM, so it's 7 more than Erk's.
Archers don't really matter much in this game for Wyverns. It's not like in FE 6 where Mt was tripled. A steel bow will have 18 Mt on her, which still doesn't pierce her Def all the way, and then the archer will have like 13 Str and do not too much damage to her decentish HP. Nomad Troopers might be a danger to her, but she's lucky enough to barely not be doubled by them. They have the ranger to get to her indeed. Magic users are her biggest threat, yes. Her problem isn't really Defence, though, it's Offense. She sucks at it.
You get Erk at the start of Chapter 14, and he's in a perfect position to camp in that area and stay behind someone. And starting at Chapter 16, you can take a decent sized party every time. What, in Lyn's mode where every enemy is trash? When he comes back from Lyn's mode, he has one of the highest Evd scores out of everyone, only losing to Guy and tying Marcus. If his Evd isn't good at that point, then everyone else has the worst Evd evar just like Vaida. Oh, and Erk can always attack at a distance at not take counters at all.
Priscilla and Erk are ideal support partners and Pent is h4x. Who cares if they use the same weapon type? Thunder is basically the best weapon in the game, and they all use it, and all of them are really good units. Use all of them.
She is the last flier to join, and she has the worst offense of them all. Even Farina will have more offense than her if you used her, and Fiora and Florina having more offense goes without saying. They all crush her massively in Evd, Res, Hit, and Atk Spd. Hell, they'll have more Atk, too. Farina: 20/5 Falco Knight w/ B Florina/B Fiora/C Dart HP: 38.0 Atk: 23 Hit: 55.3(60.3) Crit: 20.9(25.9) Atk Spd: 19.4 Evd: 69.2 Crit Evd: 32.4 Def: 18.0 Res: 20.6 Vaida: 20/9 Wyvern Lord HP: 46.0 Atk: 21.0 Hit: 45.5 Crit: 10.0 Atk Spd: 14.0 Evd: 39 Crit Evd: 11 Def: 22.0 Res: 7.0 Rape. Comparisons vs the other three fliers would be worthless if the worst of them all is already crushing her.
Healing is h4x. Free EXP that doesn't take it away from others, and it's useful. Erk can heal on the frontliness and fight on the enemy phase just fine. Vaida, rescue? With 8 Aid? No. Healing >>> rescuing. Healing only uses one total turn instead of three total turns(Vaida's, Vaida's again or another unit's, and the rescued unit's). Healing is also an EXP pool and keeps things alive without taking their turn away. Erk can heal on the frontliness and still fight, anyways. Vaida has shitty Aid.
Like I said, they are all great units that use one of the best combos ever, that being Anima and Staves. And why the hell would Priscilla not support Erk? I guess you go into this nonsense down below... And btw, Pent and Erk have great defences and can frontline fine.
Who cares if they fill the same role? Do you keep Sain and Kent apart because they have the same role? Of course not. Pent is a good unit, and with Erk's speedy support, he gets even better, and Erk also gets better. They get much better defences and can survive way better and frontline. It's a support that basically always happens.
Lol, no. You can keep all of your anima users together and drag Guy to be with Priscilla, Louise to be with Pent, and Matthew to be with Guy. This is a pretty solid team. What another group on the map lacks in staves can be made up for easily by the likes of Lucius, Canas, and Serra. You also don't need Anima everywhere. Why would you? To slay those deadly monks? Lol.
KK. Raven: Priscilla wants Erk more because the support is much faster. It only takes one less total turn but starts earlier. Also, Erk gives full Crit to Raven's full Hit, and Crit is obviously better for units that don't ever miss. Lucius: He's not that good and the support gives no Evd. Guy: She gets a B with Guy easily, but Guy gets his A with Matthew, so he's not going to be getting an A with Priscilla. That's what happened.
She joins at the end of Chapter 29. She's not going to be around in Hector's Chapter 30. She can hang around in Sands of Time, which has a turn limit of 15, and then a 5 turn shop chapter, and then Chapter 32 which is rather large. She won't even have a C with Harken by Chapter 32. It's 81 turns just to get a C. C Heath? That one is only 41 turns, so it'll happen by then.
Erk prefers to not die and he also prefers to not suck at Combat, so he evades and kills. Vaida doesn't kill enemies on the enemy phase because they attack her at a distance or don't get doubled.
You should know my opinion of little boy legs... <3
Erk is smarter. Point for Erk. We also learned to use "magic" to heal wounds before we learned to use medicine. Which method is clearly better? Duh.  Erk will know love. Vaida is not loved. 
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MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH
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| Kamaitachi | Jul 29 2007, 04:59 AM Post #4 |
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Classy
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First off, you're calling me a nub. You've just earned yourself a stab should we ever meet up again. Second of all, 39.2 is good for a magic user. What's his defense again? Given A Priscilla B Pent, he has roughly 13 defense. Let's say a Wyvern Lord with Vaida level attack comes along. 21 Base Strength with 13 might of a Silver Sword. That's not enough to OHKO him, by any means, but if he's hit, that's 21 points worth of health gone right there. I've always stated, and will continue to state, that High HP is good, but with such low defense, it's going to disappear faster. Erk can survive two hits from this Wyvern Lord. And a Silver Sword is fairly accurate as well, given a promoted enemy's skill. Erk's Evasion is great, but he can still be hit. You've claimed to play this game a million times: a lot of evade doesn't mean they never ever get hit. But then again, we all know you're prone to uber-exaggeration, such as "39.2 is h4x". It's not h4x, it's just pretty good.
Supports exist, of course. Will he be getting the Priscilla A? I'm still not convinced. I'll give him Pent B, but Priscilla is in high contention, and I don't believe what you're trying to pull.
My point for it being HM is that it's, well, harder. 8% of losing half your health is more dangerous to me than Vaida tanking clean through a hit more often than not. But maybe that's just me: I've never let my ego rule over my strategy.
Erk's Evasion is reliable if the enemies don't have a hit percentage over 100. This makes Erk fairly prone to units like Heroes, Swordmasters and Snipers. Vaida can take the Heroes and Swordmaster attacks fine, even if the Hero is using an axe. Erk will have to dance around them, but since his evade is running a little harder now due to the enemy's higher accuracy, we may have a bit of a problem.
Vaida's primarily going to be using lances, as they help her damage output. Against those pesky sword users, whom are more accurate than their axe-wielding brethren, it'll help out plenty with her evasion. As a rule of thumb, melee units usually see more WT shifting that Magic units do, simply because the magic units are fewer and further apart. Axe users have a lower accuracy in general, but thanks to her having WTD against them, she'll be more prone to hit. Enter Vaida's great defense. My point here is that 39 evasion is enough to get by. In the same fashion that Erk will occasionally get hit, Vaida will occasionally dodge. And when she does dodge, it does help. That's less she has to tank through.
Hm. 22 defense. My my my, she is looking tastier by the minute. And to think I would've gone this entire time thinking she only had 21. Thanks indeed! That defense just keeps on getting sexier. I'll be in my bunk.
Right. Oswin has her raped in the flying department. Go Go Oswin! That river needs to be crossed! Oh that's right. You sink like an Elephant in a brick suit. And Oswin has her raped everywhere? Are we moving into Overexaggerations again? Put them at 20/20 sans supports: HP: Str: Skl: Spd: Def: Res: Luk: Oswin: 58.8 26.6 20.0 17.0 29.5 15.0 13.5 Vaida: 53.4 26.3 23.5 18.4 24.7 7.6 14.3 In raw stats alone, the only stat he has her remotely "raped" in is Resistance, wherein he's just barely over double. They're virtually equal in strength, Vaida's more skillfull and faster, and has slightly more luck. Give Oswn some supports, and sure, he'll be doing very slightly better in terms of damage and defense, but not by too terribly much. At most he'll be outshining her in evasion, which he's a tank. Evasion for him is nice, but he'll tend to just take the blows. He's Oswin. He's Manly. It's what he does. As for the faster than her bit if they equip heavier weapons? Sure. Then they're still faster than your happy God Tier Oswin.
Vaida just keeps getting sexier, doesn't she?
Wait, you're making such a passionate argument, then rescinding it? 21 strength is her BASE strength, meaning that's what she starts with. 21 is what Erk reaches at 20/20 (without supports). Plenty of units never even see that level of raw strength. Vaida will do just fine against speedy low defense units, as her high skill will warrant her an easier time with that. Atop that, you said that enemies have a crappy evasion in this game, so that'll further her ease, if that's the case. Not only that, Vaida has A in both Swords and Lances upon joining, she has no shortage of weapons to choose from either. If you want to go with your 10,000 K to promote argument, spend that 10.000 K on a killer Lance for Vaida and she'll be criticalling just fine.
Instead of shooting yourself in the foot with HM bonuses, you could go back and edit your posts. For me, I'd been hoping you'd over look them so I could spring it on you in the next post...but whatev. Now works just as fine. 47 at 20/9. And if 43 was Mediocre, I suppose 47 bumps her up to a good above average. Terrible Res can't be avoided: It's the bane of being a wyvern. And do you put her near the Druids in Sands of Time? No. That's why she has a fantastic movement score. And you tried to call me a moron earlier.
Yep.
And she can still wrangle out a win on them. Even if she isn't the one who softened them up.
This is interesting. Aren't you a top tier debater? And here you are just making a statement and not backing it up? I'm disappointed.
Right. You're flawless. There are never any archers, javelins or hand axes. Erk can dodge and counter, but with his evasion still not as good as it should be, seeing as he's lacking a Priscilla and Pent support by the point, he'll be taking a few hit, then you'll wish his defense was a little higher.
By this logic, Vaida's got good evasion. Is that a weird claim? Let me explain: If Erk's evasion isn't good, then everyone else's evasion is crap. That's a bold claim, first of all, considering you just said that he loses out to Guy. Guy wouldn't happen to fall into everyone else, would he? Of course he does. If by the virtue of Guy not being Erk, then Guy is in the "everyone else" lot. So Erk's evasion is good. I'll concede then. That would mean everyone else's evasion isn't bad. Therefore Vaida's isn't terrible either. So basically what you're saying is just bogus claims all over the place. I want you to go back, and re-word that so it actually helps your cause. I hate to see you resort to stupid-babble when you could be providing a good argument in its place. Vaida's evasion is not as good as most other units. Am I nitpicking? Of course I am. It's because you're supposedly one of the best debaters here, and yet here you are making stupid, poorly worded claims. Didn't you say you expected professionalism out of us? Why not hold yourself to your own standards then.
So can archers. What's your point?
No thanks. That means team slots are being taken away for this redundancy. Priscilla will be a better healer than Erk, due to her having used Staves for Longer. Pent will be a better attacker than Erk, due to higher magic and an auto A-support. So why bring Erk, who loses out in both categories to these two? This means you're leaving out another potentially useful unit. I'd much rather have all my bases fairly evenly covered than to throw all my eggs into a single basket.
This is not potayto-potahto we're playing here. Rape and Bullshit are not the same. Farina is a 20/5 Falcoknight? You went and wasted money on her, then bothered to train her up from way down in the gutter, then went and took away Florina and Fiora's B supports (you're even using Fiora to begin with?) then decided to tag along Dart just to get her stats higher up than Vaida's? In this same vein, You're going to need 44 (41 for C-Dart. 43 for Florina B, and 44 for Fiora  turns to get up to that level of support. Do you have that? Sure. Are the sisters all going to be exactly next to each other the entire time, as well as Dart sitting there? Absolutely not. This was one of the most bogus claims I've ever seen anyone ever produce.
My word. You're pulling some real serious bullshit here, Lucas. I'm disappointed. Statistically, Farina is not the worst flier out there. She's the worst because of her late joining time, underlevelledness, and the severe dent in your funds that it takes to recruit her. Statistically, Farina is fine if you bother to train her up and promote her, thus wasting another large amount of money on her, then using all three sisters at the same time, which again takes up slots that you should've been using for anyone else. I mean, what on earth are you trying to prove with this? Vaida's much better than Farina, and I'm not sure why you even tried to pull this one over on me. If you're going to pull unit comparisons, bring on the good units. Go ahead. Do your job, not half ass around with me.
Healing is, in fact, wonderful that I'll leave it in the hands of those with higher mag or higher mov.
Right. Because now he's opening himself up to attack. One of the nice things about the player phase is that you hit first. So that means if you want a low defense unit, like Erk, to come out with guaranteed unscathedness, then you weaken up the enemy with a tank like Oswin, then send in Erk to finish it off. On the enemy phase, you're going to be more concerned with frailer units taking more hits before you can heal them up. Fighting on the Player Side is more tactically advantageous than leaving it up to luck.
Sage Erk has 6 Con. The three pegasus sisters have 5, 6 and 6 respectively. Guy will have 6. Lucius will have 7. Lyn will have 6. Matthew will have 7. Ninian has 4. Pent has 8. Priscilla has 5. Rebecca Serra and Wil will also have 7 or less. 8 aid is plenty sufficient.
On occasion, and I know you've seen this, as you've claimed to have played this game so much, you will need to rescue units, despite the fact that it's a little bulky. You only have so many units who can heal, and if they're all tied up, or can't reach the unit, you use rescuing as a last ditch effort.
That's what I said earlier. Now try actually countering that point.
It's a little different: Sain and Kent have a role of frontlines fighters. Erk is not a frontliner. He's a slightly behind the frontline. Or do I need to go ahead and post a definition of what a frontline is to you? Erk and Pent should be just behind the front lines, moving about to aid where necessary. Tagging them together means you're generally going to want to keep them close to one another, so as to get those bonuses. However, when they've bot got to heal and they've got to split up, well things become problematic. Sain and Kent will have to split up occasionally too, but more often than not they can stay together. Then you're adding Priscilla to the mix. They're not all going to be together by virtue of the fact that not all the action is right where they are: They need to spread out. You'll have Oswin and Hector on one end with need of healing, then Lyn and Florina a little down the line, then saw Matthew and Guy needing some work elsewhere...what on earth are you going to do? Well there go the bonuses. That's the problem of sticking people who fill the same healing role together.
So wait wait wait...you're just namedropping everywhere here. So from what it looks like, you've got a team of: Hector (he's the main lord), Louise, Pent, Erk, Priscilla, Guy, Matthew, Oswin, Lucius, Canas, Serra, Florina, Farina, Fiora, and Dart. That's a huge team. Why are the three sisters and Dart there? Well they make Farina better than Vaida. Might as well use them instead of her, right? Well, there's no room for units some supposedly h4x units like Raven, or even some other higher tier units like Lowen or Sain or Kent. Goodness gracious. Even if we cut it down to what you had earlier: Matthew, Guy, Priscilla, Erk, Pent, Louise...note a problem with this? You've got four backlines units, one thief who should be running around, and Guy. Where is your melee? You're going to get mowed over real quickly with just that team. Is it possible? Yes. Would I rather some high defense units get in there? Most definitely. And "You don't need anima everywhere" but "Thunder is basically the best weapon" why wouldn't you want to spread around the anima love?
While Erk's support is only slightly more beneficial than Raven's...it's again the utility argument. At least with Raven and Guy, it's akin to Clarine running with Dieck and Rutger: She's going to be right behind them to keep them healed and ready to fight, while aiding occasionally with magic. If you look at it like a support set-up, you've got Raven and Guy moving in front, with Priscilla floating behind. That allows the two up front to easier cover up Prissy from the enemy frontlines. You get Erk, Guy and Priscilla, well, units can slip by guy easy. Strategically, I'd be more keen to give Priscilla Raven and Guy.
So as opposed to saying "No Support for Vaida" you've proven that she actually can get a support by 32. That's better than nothing.
Because every enemy that approaches you is at full health, and is equipped with weapons that guarantee that they've 18 or more speed. Even at Chapter 32, with the statistcs you so graciously provided:
How often is she being doubled for one? Then how many is she doubling? This is at Chapter 32, by the way, 3 chapters after she's joined. She'll be doubling the other units out of the way, making room for your heavier hitters to come in and take out those pesky faster ones.
Uh. What? You get vulneraries as your intial healing stuff. I'm not sure what "magic" you're talking about. Unless you're referring to prayer, then you'll have some people who'll be upset. |
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| +Ema Skye | Aug 1 2007, 04:37 PM Post #5 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Then don't be a nub at Fire Emblem, nub. You can't even see that  >>>> man-woman Vaida, so you're clearly a nub.
It's h4x for a magic user. It sure rapes Serra, Priscilla, Pent, and Lucius's HP scores. It's not h4x by melee standards, no... Who cares if his defense is "low?" It's not even low. At 20/10, he's packing 13.6 Def, which is closer to 14, and 39.2 HP. Even if he takes a hit, he's fine. When Vaida joins, there are no enemies with silver swords besides two Heroes that Erk will double attack anyways. The magic users are what matters here, as they make up almost every enemy. And look at Erk's Res, nice and strong at a solid 21.2. Kk, let's see how good his Evd is against enemies. One of those Sands of Time Generals against him at 20/10, which is actually underleveled for that chapter. We'll take the dangerous Killer Axe one. 65 Hit from axe, like 20 from its SKL, and then Erk's 70.4 Evd drops it to 14.6, which is ~4.5 Real Hit. Wow, scary. And Erk will likely have more Evd from being like 20/13. Let's look at what his Evd does to lances. The most acurate lance that enemies have has 85 Hit, and the lance pplz have like 10 SKL, so that's 105 Hit. 24.5 Real Hit. Not scary, especially considering this is only an iron lance and they have just 7 Mt. His Def is 14. If the Cavalier or Wyvern has 15 STR, it does a measely 8 damage to his 39 HP. Not even a threat, and the STR score I used is a boost to what it normally is. If he's facing a steel lance, it has 70 Hit which Erk's Evd shaves off entirely. If the enemy has 10 SKL, that gives them 8 Real Hit vs Erk. Lol. Swords have 5 more Hit than lances. Since enemies don't use iron anymore, they have steel swords. Mercs have like 15 SKL, so... 24.5 Real Hit, but not doing much damage even if he's Hit. Give the Merc 13 STR and it does a whopping 7 damage. Do I have to go on? Erk's durability is pretty darn good.
Wtf? How are you not convinced? Raven: Priscilla wants Erk more because the support is much faster. It only takes one less total turn but starts earlier. Also, Erk gives full Crit to Raven's full Hit, and Crit is obviously better for units that don't ever miss. Lucius: He's not that good and the support gives no Evd. Guy: She gets a B with Guy easily, but Guy gets his A with Matthew, so he's not going to be getting an A with Priscilla." Erk x Priscilla is faster and starts earlier than Raven x Priscilla and gives better bonuses, and Raven doesn't want her Wind affinity anyways. Lucius x Priscilla sucks because neither of them get the Evd they need and it only gives them half of everything but Atk and Crit, and it's also slower and Lucius is mediocre. Guy gets his A with Matthew way before he even gets a B with Priscilla. 'nuff said.
Except...even when hit, he loses a mere fraction of his HP, as I've shown even when bloating enemy STR.
Vaida can take a hit from anything but magic and be fine, but she has no offense. Erk just walks up to the Hero, attacks it with Thunder, doubles it, and it dies. Vaida attacks the Hero, does okay damage, and that's all. The Hero lives. Swordsmasters are super rare. You fight only two more after Vaida joins, and the one in Sands of Time is on a part of the map that Erk never even goes to. In VoD, anyone can rape that one by sitting on the fort.
She doesn't need to dodge against sword users, though. The problem is the lance users and axe users that actually can damage her, and the magic users that not only damage her, but rape her tremendously. Her damage output always sucks, even with lances. Farina at a lower level rapes her in damage output, and she's the worst flier due to the others having massive level leads on her. 39 Evd doesn't get by at all. Not unless you have tremendous Def/HP to make up for it. Vaida has good HP and Def, but it's not tank level by any means. Since her chances of dodging are so tiny, she's soaking up damage often. Erk barely ever gets hit, and when he does, he's not even close to dying. And he has two healers next to him as supporters.
Well, I figured I should point out your mistake. You not even knowing your unit had HM boosts or something like that shows some serious ignorance. 1 point of Def isn't making her much better even in HM, since enemy Atk is boosted by more than 1. Uh ohz.
Sans supports = worthless comparison. Oswin will have supports no matter what. B Hector is free for the taking, and Matthew could use a B or Dorcas can use an A if he's around. Slightly better? Lol no. With B Hector/A Dorcas, he gets 4 more Atk, and he has axes, so his Atk lead becomes 5.3. Against enemy lancers, it's 6.3, and there are plenty of those thanks to Wyverns/Cavs/Pallies. And then factour in stuff like the Hammer and Halberd, which allows OHKOs and massive damage output against things. He can just OHKO an enemy Valk easily, while Vaida can't and she gets raped terribly when they attack her. She's not dodging an Elfire blast. She's getting raped. His supports with Dorcas add 7 Hit, so there goes Vaida's Hit win, which doesn't matter anyways since enemies have no Evd. B Hector/A Dorcas then adds 3 Def and 3 Res, making his Def win massive and his Res win even more massive. His Evd win is massive, too, since that's 25 more from that. Lol, not even a comparison in any parameter. Vaida has 12 Con, so her losing SPD doesn't happen much. When she has a steel lance, she has the same SPD as Oswin, but that's not too often. There's basically nothing that she is doubling that Oswin isn't, anyways. And since Oswin starts at level 9/0 in Chapter 12 and gets the first Knight Crest very easily, he'll have a level lead on Vaida when she joins. He'll be like 20/15 by the end of CoD, and actually have 1.5 more SPD than her and rape her even worse.
You also are learning about your own unit. Awesome, right? And having 1 more Str doesn't help her that much. Enemies get way more than that in HP/Def in their HM boosts. +4 HP and +1 Def basically negates that even if she doubles by 3.
Even with Silver weapons, Vaida is failing to kill Generals/Warriors/Paladins even when she doubles. She sucks at offense even with her decent Str. And her raw Atk is only 21 at base. Farina's raw Atk 4 levels lower is 2 higher than hers. Funny, isn't it? Vaida has less Atk then even Lyn at this point. Guy has more. Promoted Matthew with A Guy/Oswin would have 17 base Atk. Wow, Vaida manages 4 more base Atk than an Assassin that is 4 levels lower than her wtf. And Matthew actually doubles and has massive Crit. Matthew has way more offense than Vaida. Everyone has more offense than Vaida, it seems. Vaida with Killer Lance, S Lances, powerleveled to 20/15 in VoD: 45.7 Crit Erk with Thunder, S Anima, at 20/15 with his supports in VoD: 39.6 Crit Kk, Vaida wins Crit by a bit, but she's now costing more when she fights. And she doesn't double a lot, if at all. 16.4 Atk Spd is failing to double quite a lot of enemies. The ones that need to be doubled, like Heroes, Wyvern Lords, and Valkyries are out of her doubling range according to all of those samples I took. Erk, however, doubles all those things and one-rounds almost all of them with total ease. It looks like Vaida is only winning against the FalcoKnights that she doubles, which amount to nothing compared to Erk winning almost everywhere else. She has more offense against weighed down magic users, but Erk isn't devastated by their attacks or counters and counters them at range while she doesn't. Erk has permanent 1~2 range. Gr8.
I don't overlook mistakes. And even with her HM boosts, she's losing terribly to Erk anyways. 47 HP at 20/9 is still mediocre for a melee unit. Let's see other pplz at 20/9. Bartre: 54.1 Dart: 52.2 Dorcas: 53.0 Heath: 51.8 Lowen: 48.4 Oswin: 49.1 Raven: 51.5 These pplz have actually GOOD HP, and they all have way bigger growths in their HP stats as well. Vaida's HP is nothing special when so many other units have better HP. Even units with lower HP at 20/9, like Kent, will have more than her for the whole game due to +15% growth and having a level lead. Erk doesn't even have to stay away from Druids. He even shrugs off the Luna ones. He gets 25 Crit Evd from supports, so that negates the 20 of Luna and then some, and he has his own LUK. They won't have any Crit on him. If he gets hit, waaah he takes about 25 damage. Then it'd take a massive swarm of enemies to kill him due to everyone else missing or doing nothing. The Shamans in VoD don't even damage him. However, those nubs have like a 15% shot at OHKOing Vaida. =(
Win on them? Compared to Erk, naw. Erk doubles them with Thunder and they die. He also counters them at range or up close, so they die no matter what.
I backed it up in other places. She has poor Atk compared to even lower Str units like the Pegasus Knights, and she has terrible Atk Spd and no supports to give her massive Crit or anything. She sucks at offense.
Okay? The only thing you're proving is that you can't be wreckless with him early on. You can only be wreckless with Oswin and Marcus, anyways. Erk is still fairing better than a lot of other units. Ranged attackers will prefer to avoid him because he actually counters, so they'll go for the likes of Eliwood and Guy first. Erk also has more Evd than almost everyone else. Only Guy and Matthew have more. He already ties Marcus, and beats him very quickly thanks to having way more Spd and growing way faster.
Chapter 14: False Friends Erk 10/0: 28.7 Evd Guy 7/0: 38.4 Marcus 20/1: 35 w/ C Lowen Bartre 7/0: 21.5 w/ C Dorcas Dorcas 10/0: 26 w/ C Bartre Eliwood 5/0: 31 w/ C Hector Oswin 11/0: 14.9 Hector 7/0: 24 w/ C Eliwood Lowen 7/0: 27.5 w/ C Marcus Rebecca 4/0: 21.1 Serra 10/0: 34.6 Merlinus 5/0: 32 Priscilla 3/0: 23 Chapter 29: Cog of Destiny, with normal supports assumed... Vaida 20/9: 39 Evd Erk 20/13: 74.3 Evd Bartre 20/8 w/ A Dorcas: 52.5 Dorcas 20/12 w/ A Bartre/B Oswin: 63.8 Oswin 20/13 w/ B Hector/B Dorcas: 60.9 Well, I don't need to go on. Waste of time. Vaida is already being crushed in Evd by some of the slowest dudes on the team, so why bother? Everyone else just has more massive wins. So, Erk's Evd is above average when he joins, while Vaida's is below that of the slowest members of your army.
Erk doesn't take counters on his turn, which means his durability is good. Archers can't attack at 1 range. Erk attacks at both all the time.
This didn't counter my point in the slightest. Priscilla's not even a better healer. I, personally, prefer to let Erk handle the healing with just Heal and Mend to get his staff level up and use Priscilla for attacking to get her Anima to S level. Priscilla can actually fight very well given her +25 Crit and +3 Atk from supports. Pent just rapes at both, so do whatever you want. Pent's Auto-A is with a weak unit in the worst class. Louise isn't fielded again after Chapter 26 except as possible filler in Chapters 29, 31, and 32. Why bring Vaida, who loses in every single parameter besides Def and HP to every single Falco Knight and Heath? It's like the same point, except magnified. Vaida loses massively, Erk loses slightly. Anima = amazing. Staves = useful. Erk = fast. Pent = faps to Erk's support with him because it's all he can get. That's why you bring Erk to battle all the time.
It's rape. Yes. She is. She starts at 12/0 in Chapter 25, and can level up in that chapter, and then 26, 26, 28, 28x, and most of 29 before Vaida even joins. If you're going to use Farina, her sisters want her support more than they want the others due to them being able to fly around together and her giving them both Def and Atk. Dart is fine. He's got good statistics and amazing offense, so he's very usable. Funds? You're going to bring up Funds? Vaida can use Silvers and Killers and still lose out to Farina and Dart if they use Irons. You can use both of them and still S rank Funds without much of a problem thanks to Matthew getting you that Silver Card. You can increase your Funds massively after Chapter 30x by spending that 30,000 Gold to get 60,000 Gold worth of weapons. That's very, very easy to do in all of those chapters. She has ~6 chapters to get supports only in the 40's in terms of turns? That's very easy. What are you talking about? This claim is bullshit? Lulz, not according to the numbers that you gave me. Looks very possible.
Wtf are you talking about? She's the worst because of the level leads the others have. I didn't say she had the worst averages. She's the worst because Florina will be 20/12, Fiora will be 20/10-11, and Heath will be 20/8-9 when she is only 20/5. When you actually play the game, she has the worst stats until the very end. Vaida isn't even better than Nino. Let's see. Nino joins massively underleveled, so any kills she gets is going to cause your Experience rank to be very happy. Level 5 Mage in the middle of Chapter 28. She can level up once in there, be fed a decent amount of kills in 28x, and then actually fight in 29 since it's all enemy magic users and she has Res and Evd. She can easilly be 15/0 when Vaida joins. She can snag a kill from one of those Valks or Bishops or something and gain an entire level, etc. And she doesn't have to take counters in 28x, so she's fine there just staying behind pplz on the narrow pathways. Nino: Level 15/0 HP: 24.5 MAG: 12.0 SKL: 13.5 SPD: 17.0 LUK: 14.5 DEF: 5.5 RES: 12.0 Nino has been boosting your Experience rank massively while fighting, and that's the hardest one to S along with Tactics. Vaida is obviously still better in terms of fighting right now due to her massive level lead. Let's go to Sands of Time. Nino: Level 20/1 HP: 30.3 MAG: 15.5 SKL: 17.2 SPD: 19.3 DEF: 9.2 LUK: 16.8 RES: 17.5 Vaida: Level 20/10 HP: 47.6 STR: 21.5 SKL: 20.2 SPD: 14.4 LUK: 11.3 DEF: 22.2 RES: 7.1 Okay, let's see how they are actually doing. Nino advances down the center and can abuse those pillars, but even without them, she has good Evd. She's raping Vaida badly in Evd to make up for her HP and Def losses. If she's supported, she gets even more Evd, and she has a rather large list. You could be using Legault here for thieving or promoted him for EXP rank as well, so he could be with her. Jaffar could be there. Canas will have an extra slot if he's used. Rebecca will have an extra slot if Dart's not used. Merlinus definitely has room. Yeah, she's going to have something if you're using her, so add on like 10-15 Evd for supports. She's also always getting Crit and Atk from supports, making her offense even better. She doubles everything, while Vaida only doubles the Druids and the Generals. The Wyverns that come later from the bottom are raped by Nino, and Nino can even deal massive damage to those Generals. Vs a General w/ 45 HP, 21 DEF, and 9 RES: Vaida w/ Heavy Spear: 18.5 x 2, 15.1 Crit Nino w/ Thunder: 14.5(+1-2 with supports) x 2, 18.6 Crit(+5-10 with supports) Neither one-rounds. Nino has a higher chance of one-rounding. Nino attacks it without taking a counter. Nino counters the ones with ranged weapons when they attack, while Vaida just gets hit. Nino is outperforming Vaida offensively and defensively against the most abundant enemy type in the chapter. Nino counters the Snipers and magic users, Vaida is just raped by them. In addition to this, Nino can heal, avoid those pesky status staves much better, and is infinitely better for your EXP rank. Wow, Vaida sucks if she's losing to Nino.
This would be valid if Erk was anywhere near frail.
Kk, then argue with C Heath in VoD. Doesn't make any difference to me.
Who cares how much she's getting doubled? Almost nobody gets doubled on your own team. She's doubling things that even Karla easily one-rounds, like those Shamans and Brigands. Big deal. She's not doubling where it counts. She's not doubling the Heroes or NTs, and she's not doubling the Valks and is also raped by them if she's near them, and they're in two corners of the map.
You spoke of what we learned to do first, and said it's better due to that, when that's clearly false.  God damned, he's so awesome. Erk indirectly learned from this dude:  Since that old due taught:  all of his h4x.That dude is Athos and he does this:  And nothing survives that.    there she goes again, getting raped by magic |
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MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH
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7:39 PM Nov 27
