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| Linoud vs soundecho | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 23 2007, 01:12 PM (239 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Jul 23 2007, 01:12 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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have fun, kids |
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| Linoud | Jul 26 2007, 08:16 AM Post #2 |
Knight of Seven
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Well. I might as well make this post. I've given you three days to post even stating your changing, I'll take it as a no, since you haven't posted anywhere. Right, so Sain versus Serra it is. Sain's killing things for most of the game, whilst all Serra is doing is healing, which is not much since she is rendered useless once Priscilla comes. :D Priscilla supports with Erk, and it's at a decent speed, unlike Serra's supports, which take ages. :| Sain's are fast too, he can support with Kent and Fiora, and lets them do their job. Sain can also create Lesbians, which is the best skill in ANY FE game. |
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| Soundecho | Jul 27 2007, 10:38 PM Post #3 |
 
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Linoud, you have such compelling arguments that Sain>Serra Lets look at where Serra crushes Sain the most, Utility. Sain has mounted utility which lets him rescue units and visit villages faster. Big deal, Serra can do that with warp while get a big fat bonus to her experience. Serra staves can do an array of things. Let's get on to stats. Also, using Sain is a detriment to your team since you get 3 Knight crest and 4 knight crest users are high tier or higher. Serra comes out of LM at lvl 8 and can be easily promote around 22 - 23 making her around 20/5 with the bishop bonus. Sain will come out around level 9 since everybody wants to Lungren abuse. Serra 20/5 B Lucius B Sain Light/Shine Hp 31.5 Att 20.5/22.5 Crit 31.95/34.95 AS 17.2/15.2 Def 10.4 Res 22.6 Avo 66.2/62.2 Sain 20/1 A Kent B Fiora Steel Sword/Lance/Axe Hp 36.2 Att 32.8/34.8/35.8 Crit 23.3 Spd 14.6/12.6/10.6 Def 12.8 Res 5.8 Avo 47.3/43.3/39.3 Well obviously, Serra's winning against generals and wyverns since they have gigantic def - res gaps. For normal units, they probably have a 5 - 7 res gap. So for Sain to win in offense by a massive amount, Serra crushes him in defense since like 27 avoid > easily beats 2 def and 5 hp and Serra doesn't have to take agasnst 1 range enemies. So if Sain's massive winning offense, he's massivly losing defense. Against magic users, they probably tie since Sain kills them and takes heavy damge while Serra may take 2 rounds to kill them if they're not shamans and takes no damage. Also, Serra can double the speedier sword users and the like. Let's go on to somewhere like VoD and she still has her level lead. Serra 20/17 A Lucius B Sain Light/Shine Hp 37.5 Att 26.9/28.9 Crit 43.75/46.75 AS 21.8/19.8 Def 13.2 Res 30.1 Avo 82.9/78.9 Sain 20/13 A Kent B Fiora Steel Sword/Lance/Axe Hp 45.8 Att 37.7/39/40 Crit 25.4 AS 19.3/17.3/15.3 Def 15.2 Res 8.2 Avo 60.9/54.9/50.9 OF course Sain can pull out silver weaponry but Serra can get something as well such as an energy ring or the stave thta give her a big bonus to her exp. Serra obviously wins against generals and wyverns since they have a gigantic def - res gap. Again prmoted units have a slightly larger res gap, 7 - 9 and I don't care about unpromos since anyone can kill them. For Sain to smash Serra in att Serra then smashes him in defense and Serra can DA the speedier sword users. Agaisnt magic users, there are tons of valkyries, say bye bye Sain and shamans which can do decent damage against Sain. About Serra not being there due to priscilla. Using Serra and priscilla is actually good for your team since i have another restore user since one of them make get beserked etc. I have another healer for all the game which is always useful. Also, this game relies more on defense than offense since anyone with decent att and their name is not dorcas or wallace, can reliably 2 round. So serra always crushes Sain in utility, and offense and defense varies so at best Serra crushes him in utility and ties in att and def. |
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| Linoud | Jul 30 2007, 06:23 PM Post #4 |
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Knight of Seven
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Sain can come out of Lyn mode at level 11, and your having Serra come out at level 8. That's a 3 level lead for Sain, but Serra joins in chapter 12. Assuming she levels every chapter, by the time Sain rejoins you in chapter 16, she'll be level 12. Yay. That's a 1 level lead. It'll be gone once Sain kills an enemy or two anyway. So when Sain rejoins: Serra: Level 12 HP: 22.5 Mag: 7.5 Skl: 8.3 Spd: 12.4 Luck: 12.6 Def: 3.6 Res: 11.1 Con: 4 Sain: Level 11 HP: 27.0 Str: 14.0 Skl: 7.5 Spd: 10.0 Luck: 7.5 Def: 8.0 Res: 2.0 Con: 9 Yeah. Serra can heal your units, if your going to keep using her after you get Priscilla, whom is much more useful. Hey a mounted healer that supports with Erk and Guy, two awesome units! Priscilla sounds great! What about Serra? Hey. A unit with 5 move and supports that take ages to form. I could train up both of these units, but it'll cost me more since I'll have to buy more staves for the both of them, and then promote them. Yeah, two staff users sounds great, but instead of wasting more money to train up two of them, I think I'll just promote Erk and have him use them, since he's awesome like that, and If I'm really needing to heal that much, I'll promote Lucius. He gets them on promotion as well. Isn't that just awesome. I also have Pent who can use them too if I'm too lazy to promote Lucius. In case one of them gets beserked? I have Erk, Lucius, Pent and Priscilla incase any one of them get beserked, which I doubt since that doesn't show up till late in the game, and I'm smart enough not to let my units like that get into range of a unit wielding beserk.
Yeah, your going to use a staff like Warp that costs 7500 to move units around. No, I'm not going to waste it on something like that, I'll use Sain. He can move pretty far, and bring a unit with him. It also costs nothing and I can't only use it 5 times. Hey, isn't it always available as long as Sain's being used? Yeah, Warp? That's only endgame as far as I know. Sain's high tier, so yeah, he would be obtaining one of those nice crests. He's higher on the list than Serra too mind you, much like how Priscilla is higher on the tier list than Serra. Personally, I'd promote Sain, Kent and Oswin. Because Oswin's awesome and you can't not promote him, and if I'm going to use Sain, I might as well make him even more effective on the battlefield and promote Kent, so both of them can go forth and own the enemies for me. Sexy. I doubt you need me to explain why Oswin's promoting. What's this?!
I know Sain's good but, he can't support with Serra if he's already supporting those two units. So, I'm afraid Sain won't be supporting with Serra in that playthrough, no not at all. So, let me get this straight: You're saying Sain isn't worth using, but you need support him with Serra to make her useful? Strange.. Very strange. That support Serra has with Sain? Take it away, Sain's already got his supports full. Sain doesn't need her to be good at all, Sain's creating lesbians and killing his enemies as it is, he doesn't need Serra to slow him down in his quests for amazingness How in Gods name is Serra at 20/17 at VoD? Aren't there other magic users that need EXP? I'm sure there is, like a superior staff user: Priscilla. Hey isn't there Erk and the others too? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I want to promote the other magic users first, not Serra. How is Serra tieing Sain in Attack and Defense? Those parameters are all wrong it seems, especially her supports! We'll put them at level 20/10:
Those are more accurate, considering Sain doesn't need Serra, and his supports are full. Yeah. We can clearly see Sain rapes units, anything slower than him will die a horrible death. He's killing all the time since he joins you really. If we add on his Supports and give him a silver lance, that's 44 attack, which is pretty awesome.  Serra can't top that, so she's definetely not tieing Sain in attack. Sain has: 38.8 Crit Evade and 57.2 evade, if we factor in WTA, he has 72.2 Evade. Sain's not likely to get hit. And if we're factoring in WTA, he can have 45 attack with his silver lance. Shexy, eh?Wait! What's this? Serra doubling the sword users? This can't be true. She looses AS from Lightning for crying out loud. She can have 19AS at level 20/10, and that's only using lightning. Anything else and she's got even less. >_>
Yeah. Looks alright. Sain can be 20/16 at VoD, so lets check his stats at this point:
Yeah. Even with her level lead, she's getting owned in attack. She simply cannot match Sain here, I don't know what you were thinking. Serra can't tie Sain in Offense, and it doesn't look like she's tieing him in defense. Sain's got a whole 10HP more, with a possible 77 evade, and 40 crit evade. He's doing very well indeed, he also got even more AS now. So yeah, she's a stave user, that's probably they only thing she has over Sain, whom instead has high movement and rescuing abilities, along with his amazing killing prowess and his pretty good defense. But hey, am I really going to train Serra over Priscilla? No, I'm not. I've got enough utility with Erk, Priscilla and Pent. If I need more, I can rely on Lucius. |
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| Soundecho | Jul 31 2007, 02:31 AM Post #5 |
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Hey two healers, that sounds great since earlygame is one of the hardest parts to keep your units alive. To make the team more durable, all I have to do is waste more money when it's extremely easy to S Rank Funds and even easier with Silver Card abuse. Restore is C, it takes a long time for Erk to get to C. Priscilla is mounted, she can easily reach any of my units and anyway, if your moving away from a beserked person, your most likely moving backwards making your tactics go down.
Funds Rank = easy to S rank, Silver Card abuse = makes it even easier to S rank. EXP rank = hard to rank.
All 4 knight crests users are high tier or higher.
EXP bonus FTW!!!
Thunder>Wind. Wind does nothing for Sain and Fiora comes a couple of chapters later. I'm saying its a bad point that Sain forces someone out. Usually, if you have a unit on the team, your probably gonna get their best supports. Like Vanessa, if you're using her, your most likely using moulder and lute etc.
EXP Bonus FTW!!! Being outclassed is not a reason for being bad.
Steel Axe send his avoid straight down but his att up. Using a steel sword makes his att go down but his dur up. Steel lance is in between.
Serra = second best unit for Sain. Well sorry if i forgot to exclude some pointless .5 att or .5 avo
1) Silver Lance costs money. Unlike warp, it doesn't do anything useful like boosting the exp rank. All using silver weapons do is overkilling enemies but the combat rank is easy since 40% of your att have to be one rounding. 2) WTA gives 15 not 20. WTA is not always in effect and he can have WTD as well. So Sain's only guaranteed WTA on the player phase while Serra doesn't even to take a CA. 3) She's never 20/10 while Sain's 20/10. EXP bonus FTW!!.
Add B sain since she's his second best supporting character.How are they that high, maybe after VoD but not on VoD. Sain loses 2 AS from steel lance. WT can be a nasty thing since he can go back on him and minus 15 avoid.
If Sain has 15 def while Serra has 12, how is that good since Serra's supoosed to be a magic user. You can never have enough stave users since hey end up as attackers and they gain constant exp when your flooded with unpromoted units to kill. Also, did i mention that Serra + high level staves = god for your exp rank. |
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| Linoud | Aug 2 2007, 07:41 PM Post #6 |
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Knight of Seven
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Not really. What I said was: I'm not going to be letting my units get beserked. I'll use a flier like Florina or Fiora to go in and rape said beserk staff wielder if needs be. There's no moving away, wherever you got this idea, it's just silly. It's not too hard to keep your units out of a beserk wielders range. Erk doesn't take too long to get to a C really. By the time a beserk staff shows up, he'll probably have it. :| Pent can use the restore staff too if needs be.
Yeah. I'm really going to waste a staff just for the sake of EXP for Serra when I could use it when I need to, and use Sain's free rescuing to do the job. :| EXP isn't that hard to rank if I've got units like Ninian and Matthew you know. The Gaiden chapter where you have to use Nino, I can bag some EXP there if I'm in need.
Indeed they are. I've already said why I'm promoting Sain, because he's just that good and worth it. Serra's got enough competition for the guiding rings you know. Priscilla, Erk, Canas, Lucius. I'm quite sure I want to promote Erk before Serra, as well as promote Priscilla before Serra. Seeing as Erk gains staves on promotion, he's basically filling Serra's role after promotion, as is Lucius. :|
Now what I was getting at is, how can Sain have an A Kent, B Fiora and STILL get a B with Serra? Not the level. :| This went over your head it seems.
Yeah, Because B Serra gives Sain: 1 Pow, 1 Def, 5 hit, 5 eva , 10 crit, 10 crit evade. And seemingly a B Fiora gives Sain: 2 Pow, 10 hit, 10 crit, 10 crit evade. Im quite sure Sain has enough Evade as it is, and the 1 defence isn't going to be useful if Serra is nowhere near Sain and healing your other units, whilst Fiora, Sain and Kent can gladly let each other utilize their high Mov to actually go forth and advance. He's not forcing anyone out. Fiora's actually pretty good, with more Con than Florina, and she can boost Kent and Sain, and keep up with them, unlike Serra.
Yeah, EXP Bonus is great and all, but I'm sure she won't be near Sain to give him support bonuses, since Sain's a frontline unit and is likely advancing on the map, unlike Serra who should be sticking with your weaker units to ensure their survival. Serra can't keep up with Sain sadly. Whilst Priscilla probably could.
Hardly. Serra won't ever match Sain in Attack if Sain can have 45 attack with a Silver lance. She might match him in evasion but, to be honest. Sain's can WTA, so he won't be getting hit, neither of them should.
No. Serra doesn't keep up with Sain. If Sain has to wait behind for her when he should be utilizing his Mov to it's maximum potential, it's not a very good support. Fiora on the otherhand, does allow him to use his Mov to his full potential, AND it gives him more power, Hit and Crit. She isn't the second best for Sain.
1) Like you said, Fund's is incredibly easy to S rank, and you have the silver card. Warp shouldn't be used just for an EXP boost. It should be used when needed. Silver Lance costs money? Costs way less than Warp and you get a few of them off enemies anyway. I'd rather ensure my enemy is going to die than waste a warp staff just for EXP. 2) I only added 15. Check your math. 57.2 + 15 = 72.2, there was no 20 added. 57.2 Evade is pretty good. As is the 38.8 crit evade, which nulls crit for almost every enemy save maybe a SM with a killing edge. And hey, guess what, it's crit will still be tiny. Serra doesn't have to take Counter Attacks? She shouldn't be getting hit in the first place. Serra's pretty frail, any melee unit that goes near her will probably kill her. 12 DEF and 38HP at 20/19 WITH supports isn't good. Serra should be behind your frontliners, healing. Before she's promoted, she can't attack at all, so yeah. She better not be taking CA with that weak DEF. 3) All your relying on is the EXP bonus it seems. Even when she's got a level lead, she's not outperforming Sain. I merely used those stats to show what they're like on an even level. If we take a look at them when she has a 3 level lead, we can see Sain's still killing more. He gets a 5 attack boosts from his supports with Kent and Fiora. That's 29/30 attack without a weapon. Sain will have an S in Lances after promotion too, which makes him even more lethal.
No, Sain does not need to add a B with Serra, just because Serra needs Sain apparently. Sain gets to utilize his Mov to it's full when he's supported with Fiora and Kent. With Serra he'll have to wait behind for her to catch up every few turns. Serra's not likely to be near him because she'll be off healing, whilst Fiora will be near Sain, because she isn't needed to heal the other units. Fiora can keep up with Sain without any problems. Lol @ You saying Sain looses AS, considering Serra can't wield any of her weapons without AS loss, and with that lowering her AS, she's only got 1 more than Sain when she's 3 levels higher at 20/19, and that's using lightning. Everything else has higher wt iirc. Rofl, Sain's using a Silver Lance with no troubles. Because like you said, funds is pretty easy to S rank, so if you have no problems wasting a useful staff that costs 7.5k just for Serra's EXP, you'll have no problem wasting 1.2k on a Silver Lance to ensure enemies deaths.
Yeah. I'm much happier to use a Silver Lance, especially with this silver card matthew gets you. Isn't 600 gold much cheaper than 7.5k? I'm pretty sure you don't buy Warp staves either, unless it's in the secret shop. So yeah, like I said earlier. You can get them free from some enemies if I remember right.
Sain's got pretty good defense as in he can have 77 Evade, 40 Crit Evade, and 15 Defence. It's pretty good as in, he won't be hit often, and when he is it doesn't do loads of damage. He has more HP than Serra, 10 more. So he's not going to die really. 48 HP, 77 Evade and 15 Defence is pretty good to me. Yes. You can have too many staff users. Having too many magic users taking up your team slots so you cant have as many frontline units so the magic units dont get raped by the physical units is kinda needed, this is where units like Hector, Oswin, Sain and such come in. You did. Did I mention it's not too hard to get EXP with Ninian and Priscilla? We even have Matthew and any other promoted magic user to fill this "EXP boost" you get from Serra. I'm afraid Sain > Serra. Sain kills enemies so they don't hurt your allies to require healing. Using a Silver Lance to ensure enemies death is pretty good. Owning enemies > wasting a slot just to get EXP when Priscilla does what Serra does better, and since the magic users get staves once they promote, they also lend a hand to the healing. There are items called Vulenaries and Elixers in this game you know, so healing isn't going to be required all the time. Erk, Pent and Priscilla would be enough. Maybe bring Lucius because he's pretty good and would be worth the spot.  But, Erk, Pent, Priscilla, Lucius and Serra is overkill. You need frontliners so your magic users don't get squished. Having Serra just takes up one of those spots, since you have 4 other staff users already getting EXP anyway.
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| Soundecho | Aug 3 2007, 03:27 AM Post #7 |
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For one, units can have a lots of range with staves since stave range = 1 ~ Mag/2. Priscilla has high movement, which means you will probably be moving backwards since Priscilla's placement is awkward since there units all over the place that need healng. If i'm keeping my units out of beserks range, how are my units even moveing forward at all since enemies are on your way to the seize point etc. Erk has to waste him awesome offense to get a C really quick and there are status staves in Genesis. If Pent in Genesis where there are a whole ton of status staves, no. Which brings me to my next point, status staves, Serra can be a tank against them :). And also those ever dangerous Luna Druids. WTA + good crit evade.
No for the exp rank. Ninian's gaining 10 exp a turn so she's probably at lvl 20 by now and Matthew shouldn't promote. EXP is hard to rank along with Tactics. Nino is frail and you have to wall her in and she may die from range attacks. Serra's the safe way of boosting your exp rank.
All knight crests users are worth it. But Kent is the worst of them so bye bye Kent as an support option for Sain. Except some of them are mediocre like Lucius and Canas while Erk is decent and Priscilla and Pent are godly. So you only have to edge one of them out, so Canas is preferred since he's mediocre so at least i'm not edging out a High tier unit or worse a god tier unit. I'd rather have more stave users than less stave users.
Oh, Serra's not being played alot since lots of people think you can only have one of each class or they only like one stave user etc.
Sain's evade stat is low w/o WTA. You have like 5 stave users after promotion so Serra's not healing all the time. Let's see what Sain's support bonuses from Fiora do him, 1 att is useless when you have wtfmassive att already and that's the only thing that Serra doesn't give him except being able to keep close but that's worthless when you give crap bonuses.
3 Knight crests, 4 high tier/ god tier knight crest users = someone getting edged out so that means you have to promote someone in LM which means 15k lost so Serra can take like 3 stat boosters, or use the ocean seal where Serra can still use 2 stat boosters. Keeping up with them is useless when you give pointless bonuses.
Umm, more like she's staying frontliners since they get hurt.
I know that, but when Serra has decent offense and Sain has overkill offense, that's not much of an advantage for him. Sain can get WTD and there are things like magic users and snipers which he can't get WTA on.
No, sain doesn't have to be close to Serra, he can just be close to her enough of the time so she's getting the bonuses like ~60% of the time. Keeping up with someone is useless when you give crappy bonuses. Att on a unit who already has overkill att, no thanks, hit is useles in this game and crit is seriously unreliable.
Warp should be used if you have trouble with the EXP rank. Sain with a steel lance is no worser than a silver lance Sain except against generals and wyverns since he already has overkill att.
Oh, my eyes must be acting up since 7 looks like 2 to me. Your actually trying to prove that crit evade is good?? Yes let's ignore supports to make someone bad. 16 def, 38 hp and ~80 avoid is good for a magic user.
LOL, overkill offense.
Nothing is needed in this game. Serra doesn't have to stay with Sain for 100% time, just enough so that she's getting it most of the time. Where did I say Sain loses AS is a bad thing.
Using a silver lance on Sain is like giving a forged silver axe to Boyd.
Using a silver lance on Sain is like giving a forged silver axe to Boyd
Is 77 evade including WTA since it can down to 47 avo. That 15 def is pitiful when magic users have like ~12 def.
Magic users = h4x offense plus h4x utility.
Ninian's reaching 20/20 very quick. The only other units that have the exp boost are Priscilla and Lucius and Matthew's reaching 20 by the chapter Legault comes.
So Serra can't kill enemies at all? Using a steel lance on Sain pretty much ensures anyones death. ONce again, being outclassed is not a reason for being bad. If the worst sword user was better than the best axe user, one would use the sword user. Vulneary cost 100 gp while Elxirs cost 1000 and Serra cost 20 g with heal and heals more than 10 hp. It's not like magic users can't frontline for a few turns, especially Erk, Pent and Priscilla. So Serra>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sain in utility Sain >>>>>>>>> Serra since overkill offense means nothing. Serra ~ Sain in defense since Sain can be affected by WTD as well. |
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| +Ema Skye | Aug 3 2007, 07:38 AM Post #8 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Time to vote, pplz. |
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