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| Jeigan vs Reaver | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 28 2007, 06:55 PM (344 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Aug 28 2007, 06:55 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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wooooo~ Reave-note: I really don't want to debate Sain again :(, can we talk about picking better characters? |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Big Boss | Sep 1 2007, 07:12 PM Post #2 |
 
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For an initial comparison at chapter 12... Marcus. Level 1. Paladin. HP...31 STR...15 SKL...15 SPD...11 DEF...10 RES...8 LCK...8 Swords, Lances, Axes Lowen. Level 2. Cavalier. HP...23 STR...7 SKL...5 SPD...7 DEF...7 RES...0 LCK...3 Swords, Lances. While Marcus and Lowen join at the same chapter, their utility is certainly not the same. We can see that as far as combat goes, Marcus is soundly raping Lowen. There is not even a need to post battle stats. If you don't want Marcus to get a lot of experience, you can have him rescue a sucky unit like Bartre so he doesn't double, and so, Marcus helps to weaken enemies and complete the chapters faster. Quite important as it is pretty difficult to not lose stars in Tactics during the earliest portion of the game. And even when Marcus rescues someone he is beating Lowen in offense and durability, which means Marcus is better at all times. Marcus also has the superior Jeigan utility, which can be applied in situations like luring Guy at chapter 13, visit the village in chapter 13x (very important as you start with 0 Gold in Hector's mode) and rescue Merlinus, rush to Priscilla's village in chapter 14, etc, etc. Lowen simply has no answer to this. Marcus is performing much better earlygame, both combat and utility wise. Midgame. Since Osw1n gets the 1st Knight Crest, Lowen should promote at the end of chapter 22, where you get another Knight Crest from Eubans. Counting sidequests, almost 15 chapters have passed since our last comparison, so I'll put Marcus at level 9, while Lowen just promoted, naturally. As for supports; both are each other's better option. Fastest support in their list, same movement, both joined at the same time. Lowen should be getting sexy FirexFire support from Rebecca, and Marcus can get a fast B with Eliwood. Marcus. Level 9. A Lowen, B Eliwood HP...36.2 ATK...19.4 HIT...63.2 AVO...61.4 CRT...16 CEV...27.4 DEF...14.2 RES...13.8 AS...13 Lowen. Level 20/1. A Marcus, B Rebecca HP...41.2 ATK...16.4 HIT...53.8 AVO...63.8 CRT...22.7 CEV...19 DEF...17.2 RES...7.4 AS...13.4 Here is when Lowen's bad growths in STR, SKL and SPD (30% in all) kick in. Lowen is even receiving more Atk from supports and still loses by 3. Both double the same and Marcus can use higher level axes, for great justice. Marcus clearly wins offense. As for defense, Lowen is looking better, but it's not like Marcus is dying. He constantly has 76.4 Avo because of full weapon triangle control, so he's almost never getting hit, and even if he does, 36 HP and 14 DEF are good enough to survive several hits. And Marcus is better against magic users. Marcus' offense lead>>Lowen's defense lead. Later.... Marcus. Level 15. A Lowen, B Eliwood HP...40.1 ATK...21.2 HIT...75.1 AVO...66.8 CRT...18 CEV...29.8 DEF...15.1 RES...15.9 AS...14.5 Lowen. Level 20/12. A Marcus, B Rebecca HP...51.1 ATK...19.7 HIT...63.1 AVO...75.9 CRT...24.3 CEV...24.5 DEF...21.5 RES...10.7 AS...16.7 Marcus wins offense. More Atk and more Hit. A bit less AS, but if Marcus can't double an enemy, Lowen will probably be unable to do it as well. Then, if Marcus wanted to totally rape Lowen in offense he could equip a Killer Axe, and he should do it since he is 10k gold less expensive. With S rank bonus, he would have 53.3% chance of killing an enemy in one hit. Pwn. Defensively, we have the same as before. Marcus wins RES and isn't dying with his weapon triangle control and good HP and DEF. My conclusion is that Marcus is a better unit for ranking purposes and a better fighter than Lowen, therefore, he is the better unit. |
 ^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan | |
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| +Reaver | Sep 1 2007, 09:18 PM Post #3 |
Troll
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No, of course not. Lowen's utility lies in the fact that he can do pretty good damage and take little damage. His other utility is that he actually helps the EXP rank when used, unlike Marcus. Marcus can do lots of things in the earlygame, but he cannot reliably fight without killing your rankings and weakening your other units by depriving them of HP. Marcus is a balance and, unfortunately, cannot go full out without hurting your team. Lowen can go full-out and aid the team. Marcus starts with the Iron Sword and the Silver Lance. Bartre starts with an Iron Axe. Marcus, because he wants WTA and to keep alive, wants to use the Iron Sword. Bartre has 17 MT, Marcus has 20 MT. So with Bartre I deal three less damage and gain much more EXP per hit. It's no contest, I'm not going to sacrifice Bartre so Marcus can fight. Marcus forces another unit to suck in order for him to have any continuous usefulness in the earlygame, otherwise he kills and raeps EXP. That's not good, b7 for him. And even when Lowen isn't rescuing someone he's beating Marcus in EXP gain and not raping other units to be useful, which means Lowen is arguably more utilitarian for your team because he's weakening units without raping EXP and isn't forcing another unit to be raped in order to be useful. It's a tradeoff. Matthew is best for recruiting Guy. Guy can hit units within a six space radius of him, Matthew can hit units within a seven space Radius of him. Put Matthew seven spaces away from Guy and... Also, you seem to be ignoring the downsides of Marcus doing this. Marcus doing this requires you to sacrifice EXP rank as well as taking EXP from weaker units that need EXP. It's not all butterflues and rainbows, you need to sacrifice to use Marcus and need to use him sparingly to avoid these downsides, unlike Lowen. Lowen can actually have lasting usefulness without raping another unit (making it so Marcus can't DA and therefore just weaken units). Lowen gains EXP, Lowen also weakens enemies for Eliw00t and h4xt0r. Lowen's also got the higher than average MOV and Rescue that Marcus has. Lowen only loses to Marcus in combat prowess and 1 point of MOV, but since Lowen doesn't rape other units to be continuously useful and basically can do the same things as Marcus... wut lol. Marcus is getting situational use because otherwise he rapes EXP, for God's sake it takes like 33-34 battles in the earlygame for him to level up. He's not going to be level 9, let's knock him to half of that. Wrong. Lowen doesn't need anything Marcus gives him specially, he'd rather take Rebecca A and Eliwood B for the POW rather than dick around with Marcus and get shitty bonuses. Marcus should have zero supports, Eliwood and Lowen are full up, Isadora should join at the time of ths comparison, Harken isn't in the picture, and Merlinus is b7 for Marcus. Let's redo your comparison so it makes sense, unlike giving Marcus more supports than he'll really get and giving Lowen what he really wants: STR. Fuck Marcus's partial DEF and ATK bullshit. To fix your charts... Lowen 20/1: A Rebecca B Eliwood HP...41.2 ATK...18.4 HIT...48.8 AVO...63.8 CRT...25.7 CEV...17 DEF...17.2 RES...7.4 AS...13.4 Marcus ??/5: Zero Supports HP...33.6 ATK...16.2 HIT...38.6 AVO...33.2 CRT...8.5 CEV...9.2 DEF...10.6 RES...9.4 AS...12 So let's reanalyze this: Here is when Marcus's bad growths and earlygame situation kick in. Marcus doesn't grow much because he gains less EXP and his growths count for less, so he's not as good. Lowen winz ATK, HIT, AVO, CRT, CEV, DEF, and AS. He loses RES, but his EVA makes up for that. His HP lead also blows Marcus out of the water... Marcus might have a higher weapon level in axes, but who fucking cares because Lowen deals more damage with lesser axes and can use the Steel Axe immediately to get more POW when needed. So Lowen will most likely have ATK, he's got defensive parameters, and now that both are paladins Lowen has utility too because he has all of Marcus's advantages plus he actually supports. Redoing your second comparison. I'm giving Marcus an A with Harken, levels look fine. And we get... Lowen 20/12: A Rebecca B Eliwood HP...51.1 ATK...21.7 HIT...58.15 AVO...75.9 CRT...27.35 CEV...22.5 DEF...21.5 RES...10.7 AS...16.7 Marcus 20/15: A Harken HP...40.1 ATK...20.2 HIT...65.1 AVO...56.2 CRT...18 CEV...19.2 DEF...13.1 RES...13.9 AS...14.5 Now that Lowen's had some time to get his axe level up and his other weapon levels match Marcus, he's got better offense. He's also winning in AVO, CRT, CEV, DEF, and HP. Marcus has RES and HIT. But, Lowen's most important win is EVA, negating Marcus's pitiful RES advantge but also making Lowen even MORE durable. My conclusion is that Lowen is more useful for the EXP rank in the earlygame and doesn't rape other units to be continuously useful, then in the midgame he is more useful because he can do everything Marcus can do as a paladin + being more durable, plus he gives support bonuses. In the endgame, well, he rapes Marcus and because his EVA is crazy good he can tank the frontlines and kick more ass than Marcus. Lowen is better in offense, Lowen is better in DEF, Lowen can do all of Marcus's utilities with ease but he can do it better, Lowen provides more support benefits to other characters. Lowen >>>> Marcus. |
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| Big Boss | Sep 2 2007, 09:44 PM Post #4 |
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Ok, so Lowen's utility is to deal damage and receive little damage, huh? Well, Marcus is better for that... When base Marcus rescues a unit, he has 31 HP, 15 Str, 18 Hit, 10 Def, 8 Res, 18 Avo, 5 AS. While Lowen, without rescuing anyone has 23 HP, 7 Str, 11 Hit, 7 Def, 0 Res, 17 Avo, 7 AS. Lowen only wins in AS, but that's actually a good thing for Marcus, since he doesn't want to DA. Marcus is crushing Lowen at what he's supposed to do; but can Lowen do the same? Can he replace Marcus' Jeigan utility? Of course no. There are many things Marcus can do that Lowen can't. Point: Marcus. "but he cannot reliably fight without killing your rankings". Marcus is in fact helping your rankings. Going through the earliest chapters of the game without using Marcus will have a significant impact for your Tactics rank, as Marcus helps to rush to the chapters faster, by weakening enemies so other units can kill faster (and still gain a good amount of experience for your exp rank), reduces overall damage to your team (helps survival) and can ferry your lord to have him reach the throne faster. It is very easy to get through earlygame with 5 stars in experience and using Marcus, while it isn't easy to achieve good rank in Tactics without using him. "and weakening your other units by depriving them of HP". I honestly can't figure what you are trying to say there. Using Marcus reduces the damage to your army, so he is actually keeping your units with high HP.
forces another unit to suck? lol, Bartre already sucks. He has horrid Spd. Some earlygame brigands even double and kill him in 1 round. And it's not like later his stats will be high tier or anything. Marcus is doing him a favour by rescuing him so he stays alive, and Bartre pays back by making Marcus super useful. Bartre gets like 10 exp. from hitting an enemy, Marcus gets 3. But since Marcus should be at the very front of your army, at least 1 more enemy will attack him during the enemy's phase. Bartre can't do the same because he gets killed in 2 hits from any of those abundant axe users of early game. Damaging two units and getting 6 exp>>>damaging 1 unit, getting in danger and getting 10 exp. And if Marcus gets targeted by 2 enemies during the enemy phase it's not even close... Damaging 3 enemies and getting 9 exp>>>>>>>>>damaging 1 unit, getting in danger and getting 10 exp. No contest. Marcus wants to rescue the already sucky Bartre to get major benefits for the entire team.
Eh? Why would you even want to have Lowen rescue someone in the first place? As for Lowen weakening, if you use him exclusively to weaken, he will gain experience kinda slow. Lowen also has the trouble of not being able to kill anything in 1 round because of his low Str and Spd. Lowen actually wants Marcus' assistance so he can get a kill to actually beat him in experience. Marcus is being better for the team overall, and by team, Lowen is included.
It all depends on the situation, rly. Guy is surrounded of enemies and there are more of them coming from the 2 forts at the south. You can lure him with Marcus so he can start helping earlier, if needed. However, in my first post I only gave a brief introduction to Jeigan utility, so allow me to further expand my argument. Marcus can... -Weaken enemies, helping you to progress quickly and reduce overall damage. -Transport Hector faster. -Visit villages (like in ch. 13, 13x, 14, 16 and 17x) -Lure Sealen in chapter 15. -Reach the thief in chapter 17. -With his good RES, he is an excellent option for weakening shamans in chapter 18. -In chapter 19x, you need to kill Kishuna in one turn. Marcus is one of the prime options for doing this, as well as for weakening the strong enemies surrounding Kishuna. -In chapter 20, Marcus can be really useful at making you progress fast and reach Legault in time -Chapter 21 has a lot of wyverns that are still dangerous for your team. Marcus does a marvelous job at luring and weakening them. Yeah, Marcus has way too much utility, and there's nothing Lowen can do about it.
Sacrifice? wtf? The benefits Marcus gives to Tactics, Survival and Funds (getting the gold in ch. 13x, not needing a Knight Crest, giving you a free silver lance) and the fact that he is a fantastic option for recruiting Priscilla outweights the little negative impact for the experience rank. Altough, I must say, that negative impact for experience may not even exist. If Marcus weakens 3 enemies per turn, he gets one less exp point than if Lowen weakens one per turn, and weakening 3 units is h4x. Yeah, I think everything is butterflues and rainbows.
Bartre was already raped since the moment he joined. He is unit not worth using. He was made for helping Marcus by getting rescued. Marcus can get as much experience per turn by weakening 3 enemies. Marcus also weakens enemies for Eliw00t, h4xtor, Lowen and everyone else. And Marcus also has fantastic move and rescue. Yeah, Marcus is definitely doing better.
Okay, so we agree that Marcus wins in combat? Good. And may I remind you what you said before?
Lowen's utility lies in combat and he loses there. And he doesn't have Jeigan utility. Sucks to be him.
 Assuming Marcus gets 6 experience per turn (3 during your phase, 3 during enemy phase) and since a chapter lasts on average 10 turns, Marcus gets like 60 exp per chapter. 15 chapters pass between the 1st and second comparison 60x15=900 exp=9 levels. Yeah, he could even be at level 10, or higher, since he can get more than 6 exp per turn, and he can kill some enemies at some ocassion (like when he is going to recruit Priscilla) and once enemies have higher levels, he can get 4-5 exp every time he weakens, but level 9 seemed acceptable enough for me. You, on the other hand, aren't giving me a good reason to put him at level 5. In fact, it seems more likely to me that Lowen still hasn't reached level 20 unpromoted because his offense sucks.
hmm, let's view this from another perspective and think "Why would Lowen want Marcus?" Well, the answer is clear. If they support each other, we can use them to their maximum potential, as they aren't restricted by movement differences and they work great as a team, plus, their support is 10 turns faster than LowenxEliwood. If Lowen wants the full Atk from Rebecca, he can go ahead and take it, I have no problem. Marcus can wait for C Harken and be perfectly fine. So, faster support + easier to keep together>>>>>>1 Atk. Lowen goes with A Rebecca, B Marcus, then. And since Lowen is full, Eliwood will gladly take Marcus B, so Marcus has B Lowen, B Eliwood, and later, C Harken. Might as well note that my support setup is more efficient as the 4 units in question (Rebecca, Lowen, Marcus and Eliwood) receive bonuses, they do it faster and my support setup is not biased against your unit. So time to redo the comparison. Marcus. Level 9. B Lowen, B Eliwood HP...36.2 ATK...19.4 HIT...58 AVO...56.4 CRT...14.3 CEV...25.4 DEF...14.2 RES...13.8 AS...13 Lowen. Level 20/1. A Rebecca, B Marcus HP...41.2 ATK...17.4 HIT...53.5 AVO...63.8 CRT...25.4 CEV...17 DEF...17.2 RES...7.4 AS...13.4 Marcus is better offensively because of higher Atk and higher level in axez, and defensively, neither is dying. When you are not biased against Marcus he is looking better. Marcus. Level 15. B Lowen, B Eliwood, C Harken HP...40.1 ATK...21.2 HIT...75.1 AVO...66.8 CRT...18 CEV...29.8 DEF...15.1 RES...15.9 AS...14.5 Lowen. Level 20/12. A Rebecca, B Marcus HP...51.1 ATK...20.7 HIT...62.9 AVO...75.9 CRT...27.1 CEV...22.5 DEF...21.5 RES...10.7 AS...16.7 Marcus wins offense. More Atk and more Hit. A bit less AS, but if Marcus can't double an enemy, Lowen will probably be unable to do it as well. Then, if Marcus wanted to totally rape Lowen in offense he could equip a Killer Axe, and he should do it since he is 10k gold less expensive. With S rank bonus, he would have 53% chance of killing an enemy in one hit. Pwn. Defensively, we have the same as before. Marcus wins RES and isn't dying with his weapon triangle control and good HP and DEF. Marcus rapes Lowen for a large portion of the game and has Jeiga utility. Lowen never rapes Marcus. Marcus has a goatee, Lowen needs a haircut. Marcus wins. |
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^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan | |
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| +Reaver | Sep 3 2007, 10:22 AM Post #5 |
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Troll
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Not without raeping EXP or another unit he isn't... We discussed this, Marcus takes a unit off the battlefield to be any good and this isn't a viable option. Gaining EXP with another unit (you used Bartre, so I will too) and dealing a high amount of damage >>>>> not gaining EXP and using two units to do the work of one. Marcus is useful and all, but since he can't gain EXP and needs to be used sparingly because of this fact how much do his utilities really shine? Yes, Marcus can do all of that stuff, but the real question is when is he doing all of that stuff? He can't consistently be used turn to turn because of his starting situation without raping your other units (via rescue and taking EXP) and ruining your EXP rank. Being able to be used consistently >>>>> being unable to be used consistently. ...at the cost of the EXP rank. Him dealing damage is like 1 EXP, someone like Eliw00t or Lowen doing damage is 10-11 EXP. 10-11 > 1, he's roughly ten times worse for the EXP rank where he certainly isn't ten times better for the Combat Rank, Tactics Rank, and Survival Rank. Mea culpa, it should've read EXP. Bartre can be good when he's not rescued by Marcus. Bartre can't be good when he's rescued by Marcus. Bartre having the chance to excel > Bartre NOT having the chance to excel, it's simple logic really. Also, why do I need Marcus to do one hit when I can use Bartre (moar EXP and 3 less dmg) or Dorcas (moar EXP and maybe 1 less damage?)? Also, since either way I'm basically going to two-round in the earlygame, I can just use two units rather than use three units so that Marcus can rescue and set up KOs... Marcus gets 3 EXP per kill, not per hit. If Marcus got 3 EXP for HIT he'd get 9 per kill and wouldn't suck as bad. Bartre should be on a line like your other units so that he gets attacked by one enemy, then Eliw00t can come in for the easy KO, Lowen can take the easy KO, Dorcas can raep, Osw1n can raep, or h4x0r can take the KO. I love how you assume Bartre is going to be taking 14+ damage in one hit. I'm afraid he's not taking 14+ damage in one hit, that's something only a boss could do normally. To redo your comparisons, since it's fucking ludicrous to say that Bartre is being attcked by units that will deal over 14 damage and put him in any actual danger... Damaging one unit and getting 10 EXP > Damaging two units and getting 6 EXP at the cost of two units. Damaging one unit and getting 10 EXP > Damaging 3 units for 9 EXP at the cost of two units. Also, since Bartre's got a bit of durability with his massive HP, what happens when Bartre fights two enemies? Damaging two units and getting 20 EXP > Damaging 3 units for 9 EXP at the cost of two units. oh fux lol, i forgot marcus needs to raep another unit to do shit :lol: Lowen can weaken and gain EXP, Marcus can't. Lowen, by this logic, is BETTER for weakening because he's making the most of EXP. Granted he WON'T weaken, that's best left for Dorcas and Bartre who will actually gain EXP and will most often be dumped later, rather than letting Marcus raep one of those two units in order to do shit. Lowen getting 10 EXP per hit > Marcus getting 1 EXP. Lowen's already winning in EXP and getting a kill is only going to skyrocket that... I won't, Matthew has Lyn's mode leveling kthx. Bolded usefulness, Marcus isn't the only unit that can do these things so he certainly isn't SUPAMEGAUSEFUL because he can do these things. The fact that he rapes EXP from others when used as you do doesn't outweigh his negative impact on the EXP rank. The fact that he needs to raep another unit to not totally rape the EXP rank doesn't outweigh his negative impact on the EXP rank. The fact that he starts with a Silver lance means nothing, that'd be like saying "OMG LOUISE GIVES 20K LOL", I can trade and I will get that Silver Lance regardless if Marcus is used. Marcus's benefits to funds are minimal at best, considering when I have 351K of funds to spare needing 10K to promote isn't going to rain on my parade. 3 EXP is a kill for Marcus... Bartre deals three less damage for about 9 more EXP per hit, he's doing better for the EXP rank when he's doing just as well as Marcus when it comes to weakening. Marcus's range also means shit because none of your units are ever going to be a distance from Marcus where their range is going to be necessary. Bartre is certainly doing better than Marcus for weakening enemies, especially when he's not raping another unit to do it. That's talking kill EXP early on, halve that and you get 4.5 levels. I put it at five, how nice of me. Odd, I was pretty sure at that first comparison Lowen WON offense... Now I see something wrong with your logic. If Marcus is the only unit who can do all those jibba jabba missions early on like race to villages and stuff, then he's not on the lines. Lowen's A support (and much better support) is on the lines. Marcus and Lowen are nowhere near eachother, but Eliwood is near the lines too. Lowen building 4 supports with Rebecca/Eliwood is much better than gaining 3 with Marcus in about the same timeframe, especially when you factor in bonuses, it's going to stay A Rebecca/B Eliwood... I won't bother countering your comparisons because my old ones still stand. Marcus isn't getting that much EXP so he's not getting to a higher level and he's certainly not going to support Lowen if he's the only one who can race ahead to villages. Lowen can stay on the lines and get better supports kthx. And I'll reverberate my old comparisons:
So Lowen is still better for the EXP rank, and shortly before he promotes, maybe at 21, he's surpassed Marcus because he'll actually support and wins for the rest of the game. Lowen has more chapters to be better because Lowen totally wrecks Marcus when he wins, where Marcus has setbacks (EXP, raeping another unit, potentially raeping EXP from other units) that make his usefulness limited to when he can be used, not to every turn and phase. Lowen w1nz, Marcus gets b7. |
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| Big Boss | Sep 4 2007, 11:12 PM Post #6 |
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Before countering any of your points, there is something you said about Marcus' EXP gains that caught my attention.
Since EXP has been mentioned a lot in the debaet, I feel is important to make sure how much EXP Marcus is getting.
For when Marcus joins, in the worst case for him, the enemy would be level 1, unpromoted, so... [31+(1+0) - (1+20)]/3 =[32-21]/3 =11/3 =3.6  Marcus gets 3 experience from doing damage. That being said, it's time to counter.
I'll talk a lot about this during my post.
Indeed, we discussed this. It was also mentioned that it is better to keep Marcus at the front, so that during the enemy phase he gets to weaken at least 1 more enemy while reducing the overall damage to the team. Since Bartre likes to get doubled and killed easily by some earlygame enemies, he shouldn't be near any enemy during the enemy phase, meaning he is attacking just 1 enemy per phase. Marcus will at least damage 1 enemy, with good chances of attacking 1 or 2 more during the enemy's turn. And, since he just weakens, your main team still gets a lot of experience for getting the kills, so you don't rape the rank, and advance faster. My strategy is clearly more efficient.
When is he doing all of that stuff? As long as enemies exist, of course. He can and is being used consistently. He has as much, or even more use than the rest of your units since he is the one who weakens to enemies so the rest of the team gets the easy kills. He is not raping experience because he can get as much experience per turn when compared when another unit deals one hit. On top of that, his Jeigan utility is quite special.
He isn't getting 1 exp, thank you. The help he offers to the other ranks>>1-4 exp you are missing
Oh, ok. How is Marcus depriving other units from experience if said other units still get the kills?
Problem with Bartre is that he never excels. Let's compare him to Marcus... Bartre. Level 20/1. A Dorcas, C Canas HP...47.3 ATK...19.8 HIT...38.3 AVO...49.8 CRT...23.6 CEV...21.4 DEF...14.4 RES...9.5 AS...10.2 (lol) Marcus. Level 9. B Lowen, B Eliwood HP...36.2 ATK...19.4 HIT...58 AVO...56.4 CRT...14.3 CEV...25.4 DEF...14.2 RES...13.8 AS...13 10 AS? Srsly...he can't even double wyverns, and he has the same Atk as Marcus, but Marcus can get +1 thanks to WTC and can double. Defensively, it's HP vs Weapon triangle control and RES. debaetable, I think. Then we have another issue. If we are using both Bartre and Dorcas then either Raven and Guy got screwed and are being forced to promote late. Fuck no. Or, Raven, Guy and Bartre promote, we screw Dorcas until next promo item comes (ch. 27 B ) and then Bartre lost his A support for a significant amount of time and is clearly worse. Oh, and Marcus costs you 10k less gold and has a more useful class. Fuck Bartre. He was made for being rescued by Marcus and rape earlygame.
*points at first part of the post* He certainly doesn't suck, amirite? 
Bartre has lol3basespeed. Some chapter 13 cavaliers have 7 speed, and 13x is full of nomads, myrmidons, some mercs and level 3 brigands that may have 7 speed. Then chapter 14 has moar nomads and cavaliers. You get my point. Oh, and btw, enemies aren't kind enough to attack one of your units with just one of them, and HHM has various annoying pegasus with huge range during the earliest chapters. Bartre sucks.
Damaging two units at the cost of two units seems fair.
Damaging 3 units at the cost of 2 seems h4x.
He gets an axe, lance or arrows shoved up his face. His SPD and DEF are too low to give him good durability.
Lowen can't be all his life weakening, tough, or he will fall behind in levels, so Marcus is actually better for that. Lowen, however, can't kill shit in one round. He needs Marcus to weaken an enemy so he can kill and get a lot of experience. Seems like Marcus is indirectly helping to get EXP faster
Serra can heal Marcus, you know. And besides, it's not like Marcus reduces the damage received to zero. It's impossible to never get damaged.
Marcus can help Hector to get to the throne one or two turns faster. That certainly helps
lol@Lowen doubling and killing. Random weak pirate at chapter 17x has 7 AS, Lowen has 9 Florina is indeed better than Marcus for the vilage business, but Marcus is better than Lowen, and Lowen should be getting some exp. from the strong pirates, anyway.
Or Oswin could be at the southern part of the map, where most of the battle takes place. Or Marcus and Oswin can switch roles, so Oswin lures Sealen and Marcus weakens enemies for the team. Either way he's useful.
Marcus, with his superior movement can do it better
They have pathetic HP and DEF, and even so, Lowen can't kill them in one round because he soesn't have the Str or Spd to do so. Gogogogo Marcus
Guy, Raven, Lyn and Marcus would be the better options, due to high Skl . I don't see Lowen in there.
O RLY? Random Ch. 21 Wyvern with Poison lance: 30 HP, 11 DEF, 8 SPD Lowen 18, full supports, iron lance. 11 AS (doesn't double), 11.8 damage per round. Seems like he could use Marcus' help. And Lowen isn't the only one. God tier ppl like Raven and Guy can't kill it in one round.
Maybe not 100% unique, but he is better suited than Lowen to do that type of stuff. And Lowen vs Marcus is what concerns us. Jeigan utility is certainly a point in Marcus' favour.
He's not raping experience, rly, but he is a great help to the team's performance during the early game, and since Bartre sucks, rescuing him is not a problem. Marcus benefits to funds are minimal? Being 10k less expensive than your unit is minimal?
lol, no. Bartre is not as good as Marcus for weakening. He deals less damage and has much more risk of dying. And Marcus can fight during the enemy phase, so he can get as much experience as Bartre per turn.
No, 6 exp per turn comes exclusively from weakening. I was generous and didn't factor enemies that Marcus may have killed.
In your biased comparison he did. In a more realistic comparison Lowen has a bit less Atk and Marcus has the high level axez.
Lowen can go with Marcus to save the villages, get some experience and finish the job quickly. For example, in chapter 14, there are some pirates coming from the south and cavaliers near the village. Not to mention, the time Marcus is going to be away is much less than the time he's going to be at the frontline with the rest of your team. He can build supports fine.
Your experience argument holds no water as you assumed Marcus gets 1 exp per hit. Your supports argument also doesn't seem convincing. With the support setup I suggest Marcus and Lowen become an amazing team and keeping Marcus near will be of great help to Lowen since his offense grows at a very slow rate. With your supports, you are not using Lowen's class at it's fullest potential. My comparisons are more accurate and not biased against your unit.
Lowen is not getting the first Knight Crest, and likely, he won't be getting to level 20 until chapter 22. Marcus has a clear win over Lowen during earlygame and part of midgame, as Lowen's offensive stats are lacking as proved by a couple of comparisons I made (the pirate and wyvern). Marcus' Jeigan utility also puts him leagues ahead of Lowen during the early parts of the game, and using Marcus has a very minor negative impact to the experience rank, while he offers moar benefits to every other rank. By the lategame, Marcus' stats are still pretty good, he has slightly better offense than Lowen and good enough defensive parameters. Marcus is overall a more useful unit and by using him you will be playing with more efficiency. |
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^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan | |
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| +Reaver | Sep 7 2007, 06:24 PM Post #7 |
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Troll
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THIS IS LOWEN.  THIS IS MARCUS: - ---------------------- ------------ ------ -- - (Regretfully I've got schoolwork and like to balance a life with it and need to drop this tournament.) |
Favorite Staffer Summer 2008 -- Send me a Personal Message | |
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10:43 PM Nov 25
