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| Inui vs Othin | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 5 2007, 11:36 PM (308 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Sep 5 2007, 11:36 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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haha sux 2 b u imma open n raep |
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 6 2007, 12:06 AM Post #2 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Level 6 Archer HP: 36 - 90% STR: 11 - 50% +5 MAG: 0 - 0% SKL: 14 - 10% +2 SPD: 14 - 30% +2 LUK: 4 - 40% DEF: 9 - 30% +2 RES: 0 - 5% +3 MOV: 6 Killer Bow: 14 Mt, 100 Hit, 3 Wt Pursuit: Attack twice if his Atk Spd > enemy Atk Spd, which is almost always given his good SPD stat and lightweight Killer Bow. He's way faster than almost every enemy ever, so he should always be doubling things. Continue: Attack twice in a row at Atk Spd + 20% activation. So, it starts off at 31% and ends up at 40%. Duel: Activates 2~20 rounds of combat when HP is above or equal to 25 at unit's Atk Spd - enemy's Atk Spd + HP/2 % chance. Critical: Attack with a critical at SKL = % chance. Starts off at 14% and ends up at 18%. He attacks twice pretty much every time, and has three skills stacked on top of both of those hits. Even against the tanky armour knights of Chapter 2, he'll have a very high shot at one-rounding them. Two shots for Critical, Continue, and Duel all stacked up. H4x. His offense is ridiculous. He has a very terrible SKL growth, but a very good base and a very accurate weapon. Azel starts off sucking terribly. Level 1 Mage HP: 30.0 - 70% STR: 0.0 - 10% +5 MAG: 10.0 - 40% +3 SKL: 7.0 - 20% +1 SPD: 9.0 - 50% +1 LUK: 2.0 - 20% DEF: 6.0 - 20% +4 RES: 2.0 - 10% +2 MOV: 5 Pursuit Fire: 10000 Wt Terrible. He's like...even worse than Noishe since he has no durability at all. He gets killed in two hits by anything in the Prologue. He has like negative ten thousand Evd from Fire, so he can only hope to dodge the axes while in a forest, and he probably won't dodge the bows. He's lucky to have such a crazy HP base for a magic user or else he'd be OHKO'd from the start. He one-rounds the earlygame axe users barely, but sucks against the bow guys. Jamuka one-rounds everything he fights. Jamuka's total growth = 255% Azel's total growth = 230% with 10% wasted in STR, so it's rly 220% lol Azel also sucks in the arena thanks to his crap DEF and heavy Fire tome. Jamuka, however, raepz the arena terribly. This gives him a level lead, so he's promoting first, and then has an even larger lead. Level 30 Sniper HP: 57.6/80 STR: 26.5/27(73% chance to cap, so it basically caps) MAG: 0.0/15 SKL: 18.4/27 SPD: 23.2/27 LUK: 13.6/30 DEF: 18.2/22 RES: 4.2/18 MOV: 6 Pursuit, Continue, Duel Killer Bow(Critical), Hero Bow He still has ridiculous offense and solid durability. Moar HP than Azel, tons more Evd, and also moar DEF by a good amount. Azel only has more RES and now WTA against axes, but he still sucks at living. Jamuka also has a rly high SPD cap to work with, while Azel's sucks terribly. 27 >>> 22. Level 30 Mage Knight HP: 50.3/80 STR: 7.9 /20 MAG: 23.7/25 SKL: 13.8/22 SPD: 21.8/22 LUK: 7.8/30 DEF: 11.8/20 RES: 10.9/22 MOV: 9 He's not as fragile as fine china anymore, but he's one of the lesser units on the team in terms of durability from being mediocre in all defensive parameters. He's more durable than people like Claude and Tiltyu and that's about it. His STR is also far too craptastic for him to ever make any use out of his swords, so him getting swords is almost worthless. He also has crappy caps. Horsey vs terrible caps, basically. The horse probably outweighs the crappy caps, but Jamuka at least has really high caps to work with. So, Azel starts off with high offense, but has sucky movement and durability so he can't use it enough to be good. Jamuka starts off with even better offense and way more durability. Jamuka rapes the arena so he has a level lead and promotes first. Jamuka has absolutely no periods of suck, while Azel has a huge period of suck before promoting. And then his sucky caps and having no h4x weapons hinder him later on. Jamuka has two h4x weapons and rly high caps. Sand nigger  >>> naive brat 
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| Barst | Sep 8 2007, 11:47 AM Post #3 |
Like I said before... I am perfect.
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First off: -4 Evade is not extremely bad at the start in this game. It may be a bit low, but Azel having a better Spd growth than anyone other than Levin will fix that. Barbarians at the start have no Skl, so their attacks will have a mere 74% chance to hit Azel normally and 54% chance on a forest. Using magic makes it a lot easier for him to have a forest square in an area he can attack the enemy from, so their hit chance definitely isn't that great. In addition, you even admitted that Azel one-rounds most of the starting enemies. The only other character who can do that is Sigurd. H4x. So, Azel is actually doing awesome in the earlygame, a huge advantage on Jamuka already. %::% At the point that Jamuka is actually usable, Azel will have a Thunder tome and be around the same level. Stat comparison: Azel LV10 HP: 36.3 Str: 0.9 Mag: 13.6 (13.6) Skl: 8.8 Spd: 13.5 Def: 3.8 Res: 6.9 (6.7) Luck: 3.8 Jamuka LV10 HP: 39.6 (3.3) Str: 13 (12.1) Mag: 0 Skl: 14.4 (4.6) Spd: 15.2 (1.7) Def: 10.2 (6.4) Res: 0.2 Luck: 5.6 (1.8) Jamuka is clearly winning in stats, but is he winning overall? He can one-round just about all nonboss enemies, but Azel can often one-round them as well and actually fight on the enemy phase. His durability may not be that great, but unless you're really retarded whyen it comes to unit placement he shouldn't take more than a couple hits, which he can survive while helping about three times as much as Jamuka does. Azel is winning at this point, although not by nearly as much. Now, Ch.4, since Ch.3 is really just more of the same. Azel will also be using an Elfire tome, Jamuka will have the Hero Bow. They'll probably be nearing promotion, Jamuka's ability to get a couple more levels out of the arena is negated by Azel's ability to counter so they both wind up around the same levels. Battle stat comparison: Elfire!Azel LV17 (MTA factored in, since that's when he'll equip Elfire) HP: 41.2 Atk: 30.4 Hit: 120.4 Evade: 35 AS: 5 Def: 5.2 Res: 7.6 Thunder!Azel LV17 HP: 41.2 Atk: 24.4 Hit: 110.4 Evade: 25 AS: 10 Def: 5.2 Res: 7.6 Herobow!Jamuka LV17 HP: 45.9 Atk: 30.5 Hit: 110.2 Evade: 26.6 AS: 9.3 Def: 12.3 Res: 0.5 Killerbow!Jamuka LV17 HP: 45.9 Atk: 30.5 Hit: 130.2 Evade: 36.6 AS: 14.3 Def: 12.3 Res: 0.5 Jamuka once again wins in raw durability, but if he equips his Hero Bow Azel will beat him in Evade against the Mages, which Jamuka is unlikely to double otherwise. Azel won't either, but he's still one of your best characters against them on the enemy phase. Also, again, Azel can counter anything. What he does with counters is at least as good as what Jamuka does with attacks, and seeing how Azel will be often doing about as good on the player phase... Azel is winning by about as much as last time. Now, endgame. They won't reach LV30, so more reasonable levels: Elwind!Azel LV25 HP: 46.8 Atk: 34.4 Hit: 105.6 Evade: 44.8 (5.8/-4.2) AS: 19 (5.3/0.3) Def: 10.8 Res: 10.4 (6.5) Herobow!Jamuka/Killerbow!Jamuka LV25 HP: 53.1 (6.3) Atk: 39.2 (4.8) Hit: 115.8/135.8 (10.6/20.6) Evade: 39/49 (-5.8/4.2) AS: 13.7/18.7 Def: 16.7 (5.9) Res: 3.9 HP: Not enough to matter in FE4. May as well be a tie. Atk: They'll both one-round just about anything, so may as well be a tie. Hit: They'll have 100% Hit on everything anyway. May as well be a tie. Evade: Close enough that it may as well be a tie. AS: Jamuka can double anything Azel can, so it may as well be a tie. Def: Jamuka can take a couple more hits. Res: Doesn't mean as much as the Def lead, but it's still a win for Azel. So, Jamuka wins in durability against physical attacks and Azel wins against magic attacks, otherwise they're basically performing the same. Jamuka is obviously doing better there, but Azel has two other large advantages from his class: Being mounted and counterattacking. Being mounted is a huge advantage in this game, and now that he can survive better he can make a lot more use out of his ability to counter and kill several enemies each turn instead of just one. Azel does have bad caps, but he has high enough stats to preform about as well as Jamuka even with them. Jamuka arguably wins by a bit in ranks, but not by enough to make up for being beaten in combat ability the entire game.
lol @ calling the offense of a character who easily beats the offense of every other character at that point except for the best in the game "High". Azel's offense is h4x. His Move and durability may be be low, but they're enough to use it. I already showed why the Arena doesn't give him a level lead, and Elwind > Hero Bow/Killer Bow just because no 1-Range = lol. Jamuka's growths suck too much for him to get anywhere near the high caps, so he doesn't get anything out of them. Azel >>> Jamuka |
| Formerly Othin | |
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 8 2007, 12:44 PM Post #4 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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His durability is terrible. -4 Evd is abysmal. Noish: 14 Evd Alec: 18 Evd Sigurd: 25 Evd Arden: 5 Evd Ethlin: 30 Evd Fin: 4 Evd Cuan: 1 Evd Lex: -6 Evd All of those guys also have way more concrete durability, and all but Arden have tons more mobility. Noish, Alec, Arden, Ethlin, and Sigurd have +20 Evd vs the axe users. Fin has Prayer. Everyone but Azel and Lex start off right next to Ethlin. Only Lex is worse off in Evd, but he has 3 more HP and 7 more DEF, so who cares? Azel is the least durable unit in the earlygame.
He only one-rounds the level 1 Brigands. He can't double the Archers, the level 10 Brigands are too strong. He also is raepd by them since he can't dodge the Archers and is countered by the hand axe level 10 Brigands. Azel has 5 MOV. Brigands have 6 MOV. He has to first move into their attack range before he can even make an attack of his own. Azel sucks at living.
No, nub. Try actually playing the game. " Jamuka rapes the arena so he has a level lead and promotes first." Azel is lucky to gain just 4 or 5 levels before Jamuka joins, so Jamuka will either start with a level lead or be at the same level. And then Azel struggles like crazy in the arena, while Jamuka can clear every arena in the entire game with complete ease. Jamuka also has more attack range, mobility, and durability, so he's able to see more combat. Jamuka starts off usable. I don't understand where you're going with this "when he's actually usable" nonsense. He can camp in the forest and one-round that horde of archers better than anyone else on your team.
Azel gaining 9 levels before Chapter 2 when he has no mobility or durability and can't even beat Shark in the arena isn't going to happen. Jamuka only gaining 4 levels when he solos a horde of Archers and can actually clear the arena is a joke or something, right? On the enemy phase, Azel is dying if he's in range of anything, so who cares if he can counter? Ranged enemies aren't even common in this game, so you should just have your more durable mounted units like Alec, Sigurd, Fin, etc. do the baiting. They actually have the mobility to be at the front. If Azel is near the front, your Tactics rank is going down the drain.
Roflmao, you must be retarded, dude. Jamuka only level 17 at the start of Chapter 4? Wtf? I think he gains at least 14 levels from just clearing the three arenas he has access to. Here is what happened when I actually played the game, which is something you should try sometime so you can know what you're talking about.
And this is with fielding every unit. Jamuka clears arenas very easily, so he promotes by now, and has a level lead. I remember this playthrough clearly, and I even fed Azel some boss kills to help his level just because I like him, lol. That's how he passed up Alec and Noish. Anyways, you underleveled Jamuka by a lot, and Azel by a little bit.
Jamuka one-rounds them before even taking a counter. Why is Azel one of the best characters against them on the enemy phase? He can't one-round them, he doesn't have high RES, and he can't even reach them. They'll all be dead by the time he's there if he's not promoted. You have no choice but to rush very quickly in order to save several far off villages, and this leaves Azel to eat the dust of the units with horses and actual movement.
Lol, play the gaem plz.
Jamuka can clear every arena easily, so he still has the same level lead. Azel struggling in the earlygame arenas and having poor mobility has caused him to lose in level to Jamuka even when I babied him past Alec and Noish.
Not rly. Jamuka has more durability from it. Except Jamuka does this without taking a counter ever from his Hero Bow, and has Critical from his Killer Bow, and Duel and stuff that helps him one-round Generals that Azel has no chance in hell of ever one-rounding. Okay. Jamuka is still winning. Indeed. Lol, a couple more hits means nothing? 6.3 HP + 5.9 DEF + 4.2 Evd = tons more durable. No contest. Res doesn't even matter since the only enemy magic users are those Velthomer fire guys and they have ranged magic that three hit kills either of our units. Oh, wait, they have WTA against Azel if he's using Wind, lol.
4.2 Evd + 6.3 HP > 6.5 Res. And he's not countered by mages when he attacks them. And he doesn't have WTDA when using the lightest weapon he can use.
He becomes more mobile in the final chapter, and most of this chapter is a desert. Uh, go him?
If the RNG is nice to Jamuka, he fills his huge caps. If the RNG is nice to Azel, he fills tiny caps.
Since Jamuka has more offense, defense, and mobility-until-the-last-chapter, he is clearly winning combat and ranks.
"He only one-rounds the level 1 Brigands. He can't double the Archers, the level 10 Brigands are too strong. He also is raepd by them since he can't dodge the Archers and is countered by the hand axe level 10 Brigands. Azel has 5 MOV. Brigands have 6 MOV. He has to first move into their attack range before he can even make an attack of his own." You didn't show anything about the arena at all, while my level samples with babying Azel showed that Jamuka still had a level lead. He's not seeing more combat when you play the game because he can't survive and has no mobility. If Jamuka's growths suck, then what about Azel's? "Jamuka's total growth = 255% Azel's total growth = 230% with 10% wasted in STR, so it's rly 220% lol" 255 >> 220, nub. |
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| Barst | Sep 8 2007, 02:56 PM Post #5 |
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Like I said before... I am perfect.
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Azel does have bad durability, but his Evade is enough to have a good chance of dodging most attacks, especially if he stands on a forest. It may not be the best, but low Evade is sufficient at this point. Not to mention, except against the (Not that common) Hunters, he's actually beating Fin by 12 Evade and Cuan by 15. Fin does have Prayer, but he's still losing before he hits below 10 HP. And if they ever try to match his 1-2 range, he's winning by a lot.
Last I checked, those Brigands were like 70% of the enemies. He isn't great at dodging the Hunters, but at least he can counter them. The only other characters who can do that LOSE to him in Evade. As for the LV10 ones, he's still doing way more damage than your non-Sigurd characters, and the point about his being able to counter stands even more since Fin/Cuan will be losing to him by 24-27 Evade if they try to mimic that... lawl.
wtf? Enemies that only move when you put a character in their attack range don't exist at this point. Unless you're retarded, the ones that always move will move into his range first, giving him a chance to attack first, and the ones that don't move... won't move.
4-5 levels? He can get a ton of Exp from raeping the Brigands in the first two chapters, and he can fight in the Arena as well as most of your non-Archer characters can. He's more likely to be at LV7-8 at the start of Ch.2. Combined with the Exp from the Hunters... I'm not even gonna try to argue a LV7-8 Azel against a LV13-14 Jamuka. The archer gets Ch.2-3. >__>;
3.6 HP, 2 Str, .4 Skl, 1.2 Spd, 1.2 Def, .2 Res, and 1.6 Luck isn't doing much.
Said Generals only appear twice.
I didn't say it meant nothing. But neither will take many counters, so durability doesn't matter much. Azel does have the durability he needs to survive on the enemy phase, though.
Again, that's not what I said. I said that Jamuka's statistic leads are so small that Azel's other advantages give him the win.
I believe "Most" means "More than half", not "Less than half". Also, seeing how Azel will stay farther ahead from earlier in the chapter, and the desert isn't even entirely desert tiles, he'll still be getting to the different parts of the chapter faster than Jamuka will.
Snipers can get 2 more Str/Def than Mage Knights can get Mag/Def, not a huge difference. Snipers can get 5 more Spd/Skl than Mage Knights can, and 22 is enough. In pure numbers, yeah Jamuka is winning. In actually mattering... lawl.
The only areas that Jamuka has a large cap difference are Spd and Skl. 10% Skl growth and 30% Spd growth, yeah, those are bad. Also, Azel IS winning ranks, actually. Just recruiting Jamuka will likely do some damage to your Survival rank, enough to give Azel a definite win in that aspect. |
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 8 2007, 03:37 PM Post #6 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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His maximum chance of dogding a Level 1 Brigand's hit is 46%, and this is only on a forest or village. On the normal grass, it's a 26%. On the roads, it's 16%. He dies in two hits. Enemies don't just attack one by one. Azel's chances of dying are really high.
Who cares? Those two have tons and tons of more concrete durability and start off right next to Ethlin. They're way more durable. They can actually run away, while Azel is totally trapped due to having less MOV than the Brigands. Azel doesn't just have poor Evd. He also has poor HP and DEF. He's glass.
Not the level 1 ones, no. After you seize the first castle, the next ones that come out are all at a higher level. He can't dodge them and everything kills him in two hits, so who cares if he counters them? If he's in their attack range, he dies. Only about half of the enemies in the first portion are level 1 Brigands. After that, Azel's ability to one-round dimishes, and he never gets more skills to help him. It doesn't matter if they lose in Evd when they equip a Javelin if they can actually take the hits and run away.
Azel's damage to the level 10 Brigand = 34 total. Not one-rounding and still needs help from someone else to kill. It has 52 Hit on him and kills him in two hits, and there are other guys near him(there are four total level 10 Brigands). If Cuan attacks one of them, he'll do 24 damage. Fin then comes up and does 26 damage. Sigurd doesn't even one-round these guys, so you need to have at least two units handle them all the time. Azel's not winning anything.
The problem with that is that if he attacks one Brigand that's in his range, there's going to be one or more other ones that will attack him. Lex can't one-round them for him, so he's screwed. Also, the hand axe and bow ones have 7 range to Azel's 6, so he has no choice but to take their hit in order to fight them.
He can't beat Shark, so he only gets one or two kills in the arena. And he sucks terribly at fighting in the Prologue and most of Chapter 1 due to having no durability and being ditched. Everyone fights better than he does in the arena of the first chapter. Even Arden.
The just forfeit, lol. That's what their levels are probably going to be.
Uh, all of that combined sure does sound like a lot to me. It just makes Jamuka win by even more.
You fight three Generals in front of Langobalt, so that's already three. And every General before then, too. And things with amazing HP like Warriors. And Armours in the earlygame. Paladins/Duke Knights, etc. Azel sucks terribly at killing promoted things, and he can't double the Swordfighters. Jamuka has very high chances of one-rounding all of these things from having Duel, Continue, and Critical when using the Killer Bow. Azel has absolutely no chance of one-rounding.
You keep harping on about Azel being good for countering, and now you're saying he's not going to take counters once Jamuka's massive durability lead is brought up? Make up your mind.
What advantages? Jamuka has tons more offense and defense. I'm not seeing any wins for Azel until he promotes halfway through Chapter 4, and that only gives him a horse and some Def to stop him from sucking so much.
Immediately after you take out Langobalt's army, Azel will no longer have more mobility because of the desert. And while fighting that huge army, Jamuka is very good at countering and killing Andre's army, while Azel is wrecked by their Hero Bows. Anyways, he's more mobile for the end of Chapter 4 and the start of Chapter 5, while Jamuka is more mobile for the end of Chapter 2, the entire Chapter 3, and most of Chapter 4. Jamuka is clearly better in terms of mobility.
Higher stats are better than lower stats. His caps are much larger. If the RNG is nice to him, he fills much larger caps. If the RNG is nice to Azel, he's filling tiny caps.
Jamuka's chance of capping SPD at 27: 7% Having higher than 22: 61% Jamuka's average SPD: 23.2 Azel's chance of capping SPD at 22: 87% Having higher than 22: 0% Azel's average SPD: 21.8 Jamuka is way faster, lol. 14 vs 11.5 at the same level, and Jamuka has a much larger cap to fill and +1 more than Azel on promotion. That's sure better than a 20% growth advantage.
Sigurd is really overpowered and can take Jamuka's hits and won't be doubled at all, and he gives Evd to anyone near him. Ayra won't be doubled and has Awareness to cancel out Jamuka's Critical. Fin has Prayer if he's in trouble. Nobody is dying to recruit Jamuka unless you suck. Soz, let's see.... Azel has to go through a large period of sucking to be any good, and he's not good until Chapter 4 at the earliest. Jamuka starts off with amazing offense and good durability, and always stays this way. Jamuka can raep the arenas easily and sees more combat due to not having phail mobility and durability, so he'll have a constant level lead. Jamuka gets a h4x weapon like the Hero Bow while the best Azel can ever muster is Elwind or something. The only way Azel can get any kind of offensive win or tie against Jamuka is for him to get the Magic Ring dropped by the boss in Chapter 1, but Jamuka is also entitled to a ring if he wants one. Like the Skill Ring to give him more 10 more Hit and 5 more Critical. Or a Leg Ring later on to make him like a Bow Knight. Etc. And even something like a Defense Ring won't make Azel more durable. Azel sucks. Jamuka raepz. This isn't a debate. This is a joke... |
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 8 2007, 07:34 PM Post #7 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Othin forfeits. |
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12:37 PM Nov 23
