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Mekkah vs Sentenal
Topic Started: Sep 5 2007, 11:39 PM (531 Views)
+Ema Skye
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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raep plz
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MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH

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Mekkah

FEFFer
Beowulf for me, Holyn for you. Good luck dude. Didn't spend a very long time on this but eh.

Both of Beowulf and Holyn come during Chapter 2 - Holyn joins after one unit cleared the 1~1 range arena, Beowulf is recruited from the storm of free knights after you seize Heirhein. This will happen fairly quickly, you gotta seize Heirhein before turn 11 or so to have a chance of obtaining the Bargain Ring. This means your mounted units (Sigurd and Cuan in the lead, with Fin, Lex, Alec, Mideel and possibly Noish close behind) will be doing most of the killing this chapter, taking out the immediate threats of Elliot's group first to guarantee the safety of Lachesis and the Knight Ring, then charging through Heirhein's field army and the castle guards.

This and FE4's tactics rating mean Holyn will remain behind for the first part of Chapter 2, missing out on major experience, probably only really starting to participate with the rest when you are attacking McKeily (I think that's the name of the castle with the Sleep Bishop). Beowulf has already been recruited by now and gained a level from beating up some of his mercenary friends. From here it is basically some stats versus mount - and mount is going to win. The 2 extra movement, compounded by the many roads this game gives you, lets Beowulf do hit-and-runs which not only allows you to advance quicker, but also gives Beowulf the opportunity to hide behind the other frontliners and get a heal fix before jumping back without having to putting your healer near the front.

For the final result:

Beowulf L30 Forest Knight
HP: 54.8
Str: 22.3
Mag: 0.0
Skl: 28.1
Spd: 23.3
Def: 18.3
Res: 4.0
Luk: 7.2

Pursuit, Charge

With Silver Sword:
Atk - 36
Hit - 136
Eva - 47
AS - 20

With Silver Blade:
Atk - 42
Hit - 116
Eva - 41
AS - 17

Holyn L30 Forrest
HP: 59.8
Str: 24.3
Mag: 3.9
Skl: 27*
Spd: 24.3
Def: 18.4
Res: 4.9
Luk: 4.9

Pursuit, Moonlight Hit

With Silver Sword:
Atk - 38
Hit - 134
Eva - 53
AS - 24

With Silver Blade:
Atk - 44
Hit - 114
Eva - 47
AS - 21

Both will DA the same units in Chapter 5 (nearly everything), and do reasonably well. The chance that Beowulf activates Charge is somewhere around 40% most of the time: 20 AS, not that many enemies with more than 7 AS means 13 + (54/2) = 13 + 27 = 40. Many enemies (Armors, Generals, Axe Knight brigade, Dragon Knights, Bandits) are even slower. Holyn's Moonlight Hit will be triggering 27% of the time he attacks.

So basically, Beowulf is a little worse off than Holyn stat-wise, but he still has good statistics overall and he is mounted, which is very important for FE4. Girls like mounted men. Holyn stays single, Beowulf gets to knock up Lachesis. It also helps for tactics and it allows other units to hit whatever he didn't finish off because he can hit-and-run.
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Sentenal
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
FEFF Emperor
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Beowulf for me, Holyn for you. Good luck dude. Didn't spend a very long time on this but eh.

Yeah, lets do this.

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Both of Beowulf and Holyn come during Chapter 2 - Holyn joins after one unit cleared the 1~1 range arena, Beowulf is recruited from the storm of free knights after you seize Heirhein. This will happen fairly quickly, you gotta seize Heirhein before turn 11 or so to have a chance of obtaining the Bargain Ring. This means your mounted units (Sigurd and Cuan in the lead, with Fin, Lex, Alec, Mideel and possibly Noish close behind) will be doing most of the killing this chapter, taking out the immediate threats of Elliot's group first to guarantee the safety of Lachesis and the Knight Ring, then charging through Heirhein's field army and the castle guards.

This and FE4's tactics rating mean Holyn will remain behind for the first part of Chapter 2, missing out on major experience, probably only really starting to participate with the rest when you are attacking McKeily (I think that's the name of the castle with the Sleep Bishop). Beowulf has already been recruited by now and gained a level from beating up some of his mercenary friends. From here it is basically some stats versus mount - and mount is going to win. The 2 extra movement, compounded by the many roads this game gives you, lets Beowulf do hit-and-runs which not only allows you to advance quicker, but also gives Beowulf the opportunity to hide behind the other frontliners and get a heal fix before jumping back without having to putting your healer near the front.

Holyn isn't mobile enough to make it to the first battle at Nodion, however, making use of roads, and that the fighting at Nodion takes some time, Holyn would have joined up with the main army by the time the fight against the Heirhein (sorry if I confuse castle names).

This, and dominating the arena, gets Holyn at least a couple of levels. Lets just say he gets 4 levels (two from arena, 1 from fighting at Heirhein, and 1 from fighting the army to get to Beowulf), by the time Beowulf joins. If he doesn't get there in time for Heirhein, he is definitely there in time to fight against Beowulf's group, and still getting a level there.


So, when you first have them both, lets see how they look:
Holyn, lvl 16:
HP: 44.4
STR: 15.2
MAG: 0.2
SKL: 20.2
SPD: 18.2
DEF: 12.2
RES: 1.2
LUK: 1.8

Skills: Pursuit, Moonlight Hit

Beowulf, level 9:
HP: 38
STR: 14
MAG: 0
SKL: 11
SPD: 11
DEF: 10
RES: 0
LUK: 3

Skills: Pursuit, Charge


Now, looking at them side by side here, ALL Beowulf has is mounted advantage.

Holyn's offense is always insane. He has a base of 17 SPD. So Holyn will double virtually every enemy you run across. Holyn has decent STR as well. And finally, Holyn's skill, Moonlight Hit.

Beowulf's starting SPD isn't anything special. Unfortunately, I don't have any enemy samples for this game, but I think it would be fair to say that Beowulf won't double as much as Holyn will at this point.

Holyn has a 17% chance of activating Moonlight hit, at base level. It is 20%~ here. Offensively, Holyn wins throughout the entire game. Doubles most things, and Moonlight hit.

Charge/Duel extends the round of combat. While that is good for Beowulf, allowing him to hit again, the blade has another edge, allowing him to eat another counter. Moonlight hit has no such flaws.

Defensively, they turn out more or less the same towards the end, however, Holyn still leads there, if just by a hair, due to a bit more HP. That is just the end, though. Earlier, Holyn wins HP, DEF, and Avoid. So Holyn has the edge defensively as well.

Beowulf also has one other flaw that I want to bring up. You have to pay Beowulf 10,000 gold to get him. Gay.

And, finally, Holyn is alot better in the arena, meaning Holyn can better generate money to pay for his weapons, and levels up faster.


So, yeah, what it comes down to is someone who is Mounted Advantage, against someone who has a much better offense throughout the game, and who consistantly has better stats.

Being able to move after attacking is great, but that isn't everything.
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Mekkah

FEFFer
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Holyn isn't mobile enough to make it to the first battle at Nodion, however, making use of roads, and that the fighting at Nodion takes some time, Holyn would have joined up with the main army by the time the fight against the Heirhein (sorry if I confuse castle names).

This, and dominating the arena, gets Holyn at least a couple of levels. Lets just say he gets 4 levels (two from arena, 1 from fighting at Heirhein, and 1 from fighting the army to get to Beowulf), by the time Beowulf joins. If he doesn't get there in time for Heirhein, he is definitely there in time to fight against Beowulf's group, and still getting a level there.

So, when you first have them both, lets see how they look:
Holyn, lvl 16:
HP: 44.4
STR: 15.2
MAG: 0.2
SKL: 20.2
SPD: 18.2
DEF: 12.2
RES: 1.2
LUK: 1.8

Skills: Pursuit, Moonlight Hit

Beowulf, level 9:
HP: 38
STR: 14
MAG: 0
SKL: 11
SPD: 11
DEF: 10
RES: 0
LUK: 3

Skills: Pursuit, Charge

Now, looking at them side by side here, ALL Beowulf has is mounted advantage.



I agree almost completely, except Beowulf will also be fighting his friends for a level. I wouldn't worry much about Holyn's level lead here - Beowulf will be hitting the arena pretty soon too and throughout the rest of the game be drawing first blood all the time to compensate.

Quote:
 
Holyn's offense is always insane. He has a base of 17 SPD. So Holyn will double virtually every enemy you run across. Holyn has decent STR as well. And finally, Holyn's skill, Moonlight Hit.

Beowulf's starting SPD isn't anything special. Unfortunately, I don't have any enemy samples for this game, but I think it would be fair to say that Beowulf won't double as much as Holyn will at this point.


If Holyn's offense is insane, Beowulf's isn't shabby either. He catches up to Holyn at Str thanks to his higher growth - before promotion Beowulf even wins until the promotion bonus puts Holyn in a 2 str lead.

About the speed issue, here's the list of Chapter 2 enemies Holyn can double with his 12 AS (Iron Blade) that Beowulf can't with 8 (Steel Sword):

- Fury
- Troubadours in Zyne's army

Oh, and Beowulf cannot double himself obviously. The Troubadours are really, really insignificant, especially given Beowulf has had the time to level up some more by now (he needs 2 or 3 level-ups on average to get the 9 treshold and double them).

FE4 is basically a big fest of low speed enemies - people say FE7 enemies are slow and those don't even have negative AS. Holyn doesn't double significantly more than Beowulf. By the time you face somewhat fast enemies (Chapter 4 Wind Mages) Beowulf will be promoted and have closed in on Holyn (+6 vs +2 promotion bonus), with enough AS to double even the fastest Wind Mages.

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Holyn has a 17% chance of activating Moonlight hit, at base level. It is 20%~ here. Offensively, Holyn wins throughout the entire game. Doubles most things, and Moonlight hit.


Beowulf is doubling 99% of the enemies as well, as I stated above. Charge will activate pretty often too:

user AS - enemy AS + (HP/2)

Against random McKeily swordfighter, one of the fastest enemies in Chapter 2:
8 - 10 + 17 = 15%
Against the bowfighters:
8 - 5 + 17 = 20%
Against the ass-slow armor knights with Javelin, against which Moonlight hit makes the most difference:
8 - -12 + 17 = 37%

And this is at base level. Beowulf rules.

Quote:
 
Charge/Duel extends the round of combat. While that is good for Beowulf, allowing him to hit again, the blade has another edge, allowing him to eat another counter. Moonlight hit has no such flaws.


Beowulf is sturdy enough to take even another hit of combat most of the time, and unlike Holyn he can retreat and get a heal before the enemies target him because of low HP. Charge will trigger most often against enemies with axes which can hardly hit Beowulf anyway.

And while we're on the subject of skills, Beowulf also gets Continue upon promotion (unlike Holyn who gets nothing), and with his 17 (or 14 with a blade) AS he will be triggering that 37% or 34% out of every single of his hits as well. Pursuit/Continue/Charge is the same skill set Jamka employs so succesfully, and in the hands of Beowulf it is quite deadly as well.

Quote:
 
Defensively, they turn out more or less the same towards the end, however, Holyn still leads there, if just by a hair, due to a bit more HP. That is just the end, though. Earlier, Holyn wins HP, DEF, and Avoid. So Holyn has the edge defensively as well.


He's winning by 6HP and 2DEF at L16 while Beowulf is at his base level. And by about 13 avoid, which isn't much at all. Especially when you take into account that Beowulf is gaining more experience per kill.

Experience from defeating enemy = 30 + ( (enemy level - unit level) x 2 )

So if Beowulf kills, for example, one of these L8 Firemages from McKeily, he gains 28 EXP, whereas Holyn gets only 14, assuming the level you estimated Holyn at.

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Beowulf also has one other flaw that I want to bring up. You have to pay Beowulf 10,000 gold to get him. Gay.

And, finally, Holyn is alot better in the arena, meaning Holyn can better generate money to pay for his weapons, and levels up faster.


The vast majority of your units (except Lachesis, maybe Jamka and (heh) Holyn) have had two arenas to exploit by now, plus the gold you get at the beginning of every chapter for keeping your castles in one piece. There is also a gazillion villages near where Beowulf is recruited. You have cash coming out of your ears. The cash you hand over to Beowulf gives him some starting money for repairing and stuff, which as you said, he cannot do as well as Holyn. At least not until he's promoted and gains Continue and a bunch of Spd and Skl, at which point I'd say Beowulf is about as good if not better than Holyn at arenawhoring.

Quote:
 
So, yeah, what it comes down to is someone who is Mounted Advantage, against someone who has a much better offense throughout the game, and who consistantly has better stats.

Being able to move after attacking is great, but that isn't everything.


The stat gap is relatively small and almost invisible in the endgame of Generation 1. But being mounted makes or breaks a unit - 2 extra movement before and 3 after promoting means a lot when you got a tactics rating to fulfill and villages to save. Beowulf can always be in the heat of the action with his mounted friends, Holyn only gets to kill whatever they leave alive.
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Sentenal
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
FEFF Emperor
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I agree almost completely, except Beowulf will also be fighting his friends for a level. I wouldn't worry much about Holyn's level lead here - Beowulf will be hitting the arena pretty soon too and throughout the rest of the game be drawing first blood all the time to compensate.

Well, I'd have to take issue just a little bit here. Beowulf will probably get a level from his friends, granted. However, with the arena, Beowulf isn't strong enough to run all the way through it. Maybe the first 3 or 4 stages in the arena, for an additional level.

Regardless, that would still be a 5 or 6 level lead for Holyn.

Quote:
 
If Holyn's offense is insane, Beowulf's isn't shabby either. He catches up to Holyn at Str thanks to his higher growth - before promotion Beowulf even wins until the promotion bonus puts Holyn in a 2 str lead.

About the speed issue, here's the list of Chapter 2 enemies Holyn can double with his 12 AS (Iron Blade) that Beowulf can't with 8 (Steel Sword):

- Fury
- Troubadours in Zyne's army

Oh, and Beowulf cannot double himself obviously. The Troubadours are really, really insignificant, especially given Beowulf has had the time to level up some more by now (he needs 2 or 3 level-ups on average to get the 9 treshold and double them).

FE4 is basically a big fest of low speed enemies - people say FE7 enemies are slow and those don't even have negative AS. Holyn doesn't double significantly more than Beowulf. By the time you face somewhat fast enemies (Chapter 4 Wind Mages) Beowulf will be promoted and have closed in on Holyn (+6 vs +2 promotion bonus), with enough AS to double even the fastest Wind Mages.

Well, it is SPD+STR+Moonlight hit.

However, I'll comment a bit on the AS issue. According to the unit samples you posted here, those Free Knights that Beowulf comes with have an AS of 5. Beowulf has an AS of 8 with a steel sword, so he won't double them. Voltz, the level 20 Free Knight there apparenltly has 12 AS, enough to double Beowulf!

Holyn doubles all but that level 20 one, but is mere levels from being able to do it.

Then at McKeily, Beowulf doesn't double the Swordfighters, Holyn does. Beowulf has to be at like, level 12 to double the bowfighters.

After you take Anphony, the Cavaliers/Paladin group that charges you has Cavaliers with 6 AS, saying that Beowulf needs to be at level 16ish to double them. I don't think that is all very likely. No chance in doubling that Paladin, either. Holyn doubles them all.

So, Beowulf will be having doubling issues here. Holyn won't.

Add that onto Moonlight hit, and Holyn is clearly superior in offense.

Quote:
 
Beowulf is sturdy enough to take even another hit of combat most of the time, and unlike Holyn he can retreat and get a heal before the enemies target him because of low HP. Charge will trigger most often against enemies with axes which can hardly hit Beowulf anyway.

And while we're on the subject of skills, Beowulf also gets Continue upon promotion (unlike Holyn who gets nothing), and with his 17 (or 14 with a blade) AS he will be triggering that 37% or 34% out of every single of his hits as well. Pursuit/Continue/Charge is the same skill set Jamka employs so succesfully, and in the hands of Beowulf it is quite deadly as well.

Beowulf taking an extra hit in a turn is not a good thing. Yes, it is good that Beowulf is able to get an extra hit in. But that gets counter balanced by the fact that he is eating another counter.

I'd also like to note that common enemies bosses are things with lots of DEF, on castles, making the activation of Moonlight hit very valuable vs them.

Quote:
 
He's winning by 6HP and 2DEF at L16 while Beowulf is at his base level. And by about 13 avoid, which isn't much at all. Especially when you take into account that Beowulf is gaining more experience per kill.

Experience from defeating enemy = 30 + ( (enemy level - unit level) x 2 )

So if Beowulf kills, for example, one of these L8 Firemages from McKeily, he gains 28 EXP, whereas Holyn gets only 14, assuming the level you estimated Holyn at.

Beowulf will be catching up in level, due to Holyn being so much higher than Beowulf. Is it expected that an underleveled unit will preform worse than a higher leveled unit? Yes. Is that any excuse? Not really.

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The vast majority of your units (except Lachesis, maybe Jamka and (heh) Holyn) have had two arenas to exploit by now, plus the gold you get at the beginning of every chapter for keeping your castles in one piece. There is also a gazillion villages near where Beowulf is recruited. You have cash coming out of your ears. The cash you hand over to Beowulf gives him some starting money for repairing and stuff, which as you said, he cannot do as well as Holyn. At least not until he's promoted and gains Continue and a bunch of Spd and Skl, at which point I'd say Beowulf is about as good if not better than Holyn at arenawhoring.

Point taken about the cash.

Holyn is gonna promote long before Beowulf, though, since Holyn handles the Arena better. Holyn probably promotes in chapter 3. Holyn is bound to get another level, maybe 2 after you recruit Beowulf, and then 2 from the Arena. So Holyn is going to be promoting early in chapter 3, furthering his leads on Beowulf. So while Beowulf will eventually be able to equal Holyn in arena whoring, it won't be for a while.

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The stat gap is relatively small and almost invisible in the endgame of Generation 1. But being mounted makes or breaks a unit - 2 extra movement before and 3 after promoting means a lot when you got a tactics rating to fulfill and villages to save. Beowulf can always be in the heat of the action with his mounted friends, Holyn only gets to kill whatever they leave alive.

The stat gap is small endgame of Generation 1. Before then, Holyn has a clear statistical advantage.

And about Beowulf's raw movement lead. Beowulf is also mounted, and therefore gets the movement penalites of a mounted unit. Chapter 4 (whichever is the Silesia one), there are lots of forests around, butchering Beowulf's MOV. Then in chapter 5, there is alot of Desert there, again butchering Beowulf's MOV. So Beowulf's MOV advantage is there, but its not like that doesn't have its own drawbacks.
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Mekkah

FEFFer
"Well, I'd have to take issue just a little bit here. Beowulf will probably get a level from his friends, granted. However, with the arena, Beowulf isn't strong enough to run all the way through it. Maybe the first 3 or 4 stages in the arena, for an additional level.

Regardless, that would still be a 5 or 6 level lead for Holyn."

No issues here.

"Well, it is SPD+STR+Moonlight hit.

However, I'll comment a bit on the AS issue. According to the unit samples you posted here, those Free Knights that Beowulf comes with have an AS of 5. Beowulf has an AS of 8 with a steel sword, so he won't double them. Voltz, the level 20 Free Knight there apparenltly has 12 AS, enough to double Beowulf!

Holyn doubles all but that level 20 one, but is mere levels from being able to do it.

Then at McKeily, Beowulf doesn't double the Swordfighters, Holyn does. Beowulf has to be at like, level 12 to double the bowfighters.

After you take Anphony, the Cavaliers/Paladin group that charges you has Cavaliers with 6 AS, saying that Beowulf needs to be at level 16ish to double them. I don't think that is all very likely. No chance in doubling that Paladin, either. Holyn doubles them all.

So, Beowulf will be having doubling issues here. Holyn won't.

Add that onto Moonlight hit, and Holyn is clearly superior in offense."

Welcome to FE4, where Pursuit is the most broken skill ever, allowing you to double if you are faster. And by faster they mean 1 AS higher and you're in the money. Beowulf is faster than anyone except Voltz and Fury, therefore he is doubling everyone except these two. Voltz doesn't even have Pursuit so he has to trigger Continue to double Beowulf...but if he does that he does the same against Holyn anyway.

So it's back to Moonlight hit and a stat lead that keeps on growing smaller versus Charge, mount and upcoming Continue.

"Beowulf taking an extra hit in a turn is not a good thing. Yes, it is good that Beowulf is able to get an extra hit in. But that gets counter balanced by the fact that he is eating another counter.

I'd also like to note that common enemies bosses are things with lots of DEF, on castles, making the activation of Moonlight hit very valuable vs them."

He's still getting an extra hit in, which is good enough. Charge isn't going to kill you unless you are up against something with massive attacking power, because it cannot trigger unless you have over 25HP. Since Beowulf can retreat fairly easily and get a heal, Charge is much much more a good thing than a bad thing.

Yep, Holyn getting Moonlight hit on a General would probably be quite beneficial, but if you really want Beowulf to stand up against those he can take up an Armor Cutter from Chapter 3, and with his multi-hit skills he'll do quite well anyway. On the downside of Moonlight Hit, if you're fighting an enemy with a ton of HP and little defense it is Charge that makes more of a difference in damage output.

"Beowulf will be catching up in level, due to Holyn being so much higher than Beowulf. Is it expected that an underleveled unit will preform worse than a higher leveled unit? Yes. Is that any excuse? Not really."

It does help your EXP rank as well as demonstrate that a level/stat gap isn't really a very big one especially if it's only 6 levels.

"Point taken about the cash.

Holyn is gonna promote long before Beowulf, though, since Holyn handles the Arena better. Holyn probably promotes in chapter 3. Holyn is bound to get another level, maybe 2 after you recruit Beowulf, and then 2 from the Arena. So Holyn is going to be promoting early in chapter 3, furthering his leads on Beowulf. So while Beowulf will eventually be able to equal Holyn in arena whoring, it won't be for a while."

And from there you'll want Holyn to stop stealing too many kills because you have some other units to promote, and a L20 Holyn is gaining shitty EXP. He gains only 10 EXP from a L10 enemy. Beowulf can probably promote around the time you are facing Elthsan, if not then he can rack up some more EXP on the pirates from Orgahil and promote before Chapter 4 begins. Then he can totally clear the arena's of Chapter 4 and 5, so Holyn only got to beat 2 more of them.

"The stat gap is small endgame of Generation 1. Before then, Holyn has a clear statistical advantage."

The stat gap was never really big: very early on it is 6 HP, 1 Str, 9 Skl, 7 Spd, 2 def and 1 res over a point of Luk. It may look like a lot until you realize both are DAing everything and hardly ever missing, making both Holyn's Spd and Skl leads a lot less spectacular. The differences between the two will not be noticed nearly as much as the insane amount of utility being mounted gives Beowulf, and in the endgame Beowulf is actually even winning in combat thanks to a new skill and even more movement.

"And about Beowulf's raw movement lead. Beowulf is also mounted, and therefore gets the movement penalites of a mounted unit. Chapter 4 (whichever is the Silesia one), there are lots of forests around, butchering Beowulf's MOV. Then in chapter 5, there is alot of Desert there, again butchering Beowulf's MOV. So Beowulf's MOV advantage is there, but its not like that doesn't have its own drawbacks."

Silesia has forests, but not so much that Beowulf won't be running circles around Holyn. You don't have to cross more than one forest square in a row ever in that chapter unless you specifically want to sneak through them, and during the second half of the chapter (going to Silesia castle and then to Zaxon) there are no forests at all. However, Beowulf is benefitting more from all the roads that go through the entire chapter, as well as every single other road so far (and Ch2 and Ch3 do have plenty of those) so yeah. Then you factor in that Holyn also has to cross the same forests and his move is cut as well - their netto movement through forests should be about the same, but Beowulf is winning everywhere else.

Except the desert, but even your godly lord Sigurd is having trouble getting through that desert. But he does have to brand his Tyrfing on the Freege army or at least pass through the area even if you're letting Levin do all the work, because Sigurd has to talk to Ida (the Velthomer boss who gives the command to attack Reptor). So if you have to wait for Sigurd to cross the sand anyway, Beowulf isn't making your life any slower. Not all tiles are desert ones either: some are regular sand ones on which Beowulf is still outrunning Holyn.

Even if you were to insist that Beowulf is too big of a drag in the desert, he can afford to stay at Phinora or even Lubeck and finish up repairing weapons and trading rings so his son doesn't have to waste money.

Finally, I'd like to address Holyn's biggest weakness: genes. These days, genetical substances simply cannot be ignored, what with all the ethical debates about them. I'd like to point out that, when Holyn is doing the horizontal tango with Ayra, his greatest flaw is exposed. Not then, but several years later. You, the tactician, will look at your cute lil kids as they come out of Tinalogue or whatever the hell that town is called. And you will gasp in horror: Skakasha has black hair! Holyn does not even pass his hair color to his child! What a weakling, he cannot even break through a girl's genetical construction!

Before you say the same about Beowulf, note that Beowulf is sexing up Lachesis. Lachesis has access to not one but three males according to the canon of this game: our sexy mate Beowulf, Fin and :incest: Elthsan. The mix of four juices within Lachesis' pit of doom allows nobody to predict whatever happens to the genetical construction of the children. Therefore, Beowulf is not to blame for Delmud's odd hairdo or color.

So yeah, mount + good overall performance + great endgame performance >>>>>>> no mount + slightlybetter early performance

EDIT: quote tags fucked up for some reason
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Sentenal
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
FEFF Emperor
Damn, I really fucked up lol. I could have sworn it was pursuit, and 4 more AS. >_>

I've practically lost this now, but I'm going to at least try.

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He's still getting an extra hit in, which is good enough. Charge isn't going to kill you unless you are up against something with massive attacking power, because it cannot trigger unless you have over 25HP. Since Beowulf can retreat fairly easily and get a heal, Charge is much much more a good thing than a bad thing.

He is still eating an extra hit, making him that much more easy to kill. If it is forcing Beowulf to retreat, since he took an extra hit, that is a bad thing.

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Yep, Holyn getting Moonlight hit on a General would probably be quite beneficial, but if you really want Beowulf to stand up against those he can take up an Armor Cutter from Chapter 3, and with his multi-hit skills he'll do quite well anyway. On the downside of Moonlight Hit, if you're fighting an enemy with a ton of HP and little defense it is Charge that makes more of a difference in damage output.

Or Holyn with an Armorcutter, and activating Moonlight hit, wtf rapes the shit out of them.

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It does help your EXP rank as well as demonstrate that a level/stat gap isn't really a very big one especially if it's only 6 levels.

All I see benifiting here is the EXP rank. EXP rank is helped. But Holyn is doing better in combat. And with people like Lex around, the elite ring, and people like Lachesis, the EXP rank really isn't that hard. Combat is much more valuable. And with superior stats, comes superior combat.

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And from there you'll want Holyn to stop stealing too many kills because you have some other units to promote, and a L20 Holyn is gaining shitty EXP. He gains only 10 EXP from a L10 enemy. Beowulf can probably promote around the time you are facing Elthsan, if not then he can rack up some more EXP on the pirates from Orgahil and promote before Chapter 4 begins. Then he can totally clear the arena's of Chapter 4 and 5, so Holyn only got to beat 2 more of them.

A promoted Holyn is one of your boss killers.

Like, a level 20 Holyn has these stats:
HP: 48.8
STR: 21.4
MAG: 3.4
SKL: 25.4
SPD: 21.4
DEF: 15.4
RES: 4.4
LUK: 2.6

At the end of chapter 2, Beowulf would be like, level 15ish?
HP: 42.8
STR: 16.4
MAG: 0
SKL: 13.4
SPD: 12.8
DEF: 11.8
RES: 0.3
LUK: 4.2

No way you look at this, Holyn is doing much better here as well. MUCH better.

By the time Beowulf promotes, lets put Holyn at level 22.
HP: 51
STR: 22
MAG: 3.5
SKL: 26.5
SPD: 22
DEF: 16
RES: 4.5
LUK: 3

And the promoted Beowulf:
HP: 46.8
STR: 19.4
MAG: 0
SKL: 24.4
SPD: 20.3
DEF: 15.3
RES: 3.5
LUK: 5.2

The gap closes a bit, but Holyn is still clearly superior.

We have Chapter 2 and 3, where Holyn is preforming better than Beowulf. Beowulf needs to make up for it in 4 and 5, if he wants to win. He needs to.

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The stat gap was never really big: very early on it is 6 HP, 1 Str, 9 Skl, 7 Spd, 2 def and 1 res over a point of Luk. It may look like a lot until you realize both are DAing everything and hardly ever missing, making both Holyn's Spd and Skl leads a lot less spectacular. The differences between the two will not be noticed nearly as much as the insane amount of utility being mounted gives Beowulf, and in the endgame Beowulf is actually even winning in combat thanks to a new skill and even more movement.

You can notice the SKL advantage, since that ties to Moonlight hit. 20% chance of ignoring DEF in chapter 2, and gets as high as 27% chance of ignoring DEF in chapter 3-5.

And with Holyn's promotion, what was 1 STR in Holyn's favor before, gets turned into alot more now. Holyn gets 5 STR on promotion. Beowulf gets 1.

And, I'm going to drive that SPD to my favor, I don't give a damn about what I have to do to do it. Steel Blade.

With a Steel Blade, Holyn would have 12.2 AS in chapter 2. Beowulf, if he used a Steel Blade, would have 5 AS when you get him, and about 6ish by the end of the chapter.

Beowulf has 24 Atk with his Steel Sword against the Free Knights he comes with. Holyn with a Steel Blade has 31.2 Atk. Beowulf doesn't double with one, Holyn does.

Those Swordfighters with 10 AS? Owait, one group that didn't change from my previous post. Beowulf would need at least 14 SPD (11 AS) to double them, with a Steel Sword. He won't be able to do that, not for a while! Holyn? His 12.2 AS with a Steel Blade lets him double, for TONS of damage.

24 atk once, against 31.2 atk TWICE. Does still not SPD not matter?

Those Cavaliers, 6 AS. Needs 7 AS to double them, and in order to double with a Steel Blade, Beowulf needs to be level 13. But he doubles with a Steel Sword.

So, 25~ Atk twice, against 32~ Atk twice. 14 more damage per round. Having enough SPD to use heavier weapons is nice, isn't it?


So, while Beowulf will double as much, how bout this: Holyn can use heavier, more powerful weapons, like the Steel Blade, and have his doubling game uneffected. Beowulf cannot do the same, not until later.

So the stat lead isn't minor. Not by any means.

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Silesia has forests, but not so much that Beowulf won't be running circles around Holyn. You don't have to cross more than one forest square in a row ever in that chapter unless you specifically want to sneak through them, and during the second half of the chapter (going to Silesia castle and then to Zaxon) there are no forests at all. However, Beowulf is benefitting more from all the roads that go through the entire chapter, as well as every single other road so far (and Ch2 and Ch3 do have plenty of those) so yeah. Then you factor in that Holyn also has to cross the same forests and his move is cut as well - their netto movement through forests should be about the same, but Beowulf is winning everywhere else.

What, you wouldn't want to use forests to your advantage? The fact that Forests erase any MOV lead that Beowulf has on Holyn, means that Holyn's superior stats make Holyn... superior, since all Beowulf has pretty much is mobility.

You would WANT to make use of forests. Forests=good, defensive bonuses. And forests nullify the MOV lead that Beowulf has.

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Except the desert, but even your godly lord Sigurd is having trouble getting through that desert. But he does have to brand his Tyrfing on the Freege army or at least pass through the area even if you're letting Levin do all the work, because Sigurd has to talk to Ida (the Velthomer boss who gives the command to attack Reptor). So if you have to wait for Sigurd to cross the sand anyway, Beowulf isn't making your life any slower. Not all tiles are desert ones either: some are regular sand ones on which Beowulf is still outrunning Holyn.

Even if you were to insist that Beowulf is too big of a drag in the desert, he can afford to stay at Phinora or even Lubeck and finish up repairing weapons and trading rings so his son doesn't have to waste money.

Beowulf is a drag there, Holyn isn't, so advantage to Holyn.

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Finally, I'd like to address Holyn's biggest weakness: genes. These days, genetical substances simply cannot be ignored, what with all the ethical debates about them. I'd like to point out that, when Holyn is doing the horizontal tango with Ayra, his greatest flaw is exposed. Not then, but several years later. You, the tactician, will look at your cute lil kids as they come out of Tinalogue or whatever the hell that town is called. And you will gasp in horror: Skakasha has black hair! Holyn does not even pass his hair color to his child! What a weakling, he cannot even break through a girl's genetical construction!

Well, lets be fair here. Beowulf wouldn't be able to conquer Ira's hair. Not even Lex can do that.

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Before you say the same about Beowulf, note that Beowulf is sexing up Lachesis. Lachesis has access to not one but three males according to the canon of this game: our sexy mate Beowulf, Fin and :incest: Elthsan. The mix of four juices within Lachesis' pit of doom allows nobody to predict whatever happens to the genetical construction of the children. Therefore, Beowulf is not to blame for Delmud's odd hairdo or color.

wtf lol what the hell is wrong with you?


Anyway, in closing:

Chapter 2 and 3, Beowulf is clearly superior. Chapter 4 and 5 it is close. I still maintain that Holyn's better offense, even if it is slight, make him better, although being mounted and closer stats certainly makes a case for Beowulf in these chapters.

But, being clearly superior in two chapters, is better than being arguably superior in 2 chapters. Therefore, Holyn is overall better than Beowulf.

And I just know my fuck up last post is gonna cause me this debate. ;_;
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