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| Solid vs Jeigan | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 7 2007, 09:36 PM (566 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Sep 7 2007, 09:36 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Just in time, eh, Solide? 
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 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Sep 12 2007, 05:17 PM Post #2 |
 
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Buena suerte, señor Snake. Rebecca vs. Marcus. To begin, let’s examine Supports, as there’s quite a big discrepancy between the two in that category. Rebecca has Dart, Wil, Louise, Nino, Lowen, Sain, and Raven. Lowen—with a Rebecca Support, he’s one of the most durable units in the game. In addition, unlike your other tank, Oswin, Lowen has mobility. Not only is Lowen a good unit, but Lowen x Rebecca is Fire x Fire, which is desirable to Lowen since he wants offensive boosts as much as possible. Sain—another good character, with high Strength and a good Kent Support. He’s lacking in a second Support option, however (Serra is rarely played due to the presence of Priscilla, Priscilla herself has too many other options, Fiora prefers Kent and Florina due to better bonuses if she’s played, Isadora and Louise are not impressive), so Rebecca works nicely for him. Raven—one of the best characters in the game. Wil and Bartre are useless and Priscilla wants Erk and Guy (both of whom are good units) due to better bonuses, so he definitely wants a Rebecca Support. Dart—Yes, he costs 50k. However, a lot of that is offset due to the availability of the Silver Card. Dart has good stats, with high Strength and Speed, so he’s definitely a valid choice. A Fire x Fire Support is useful to him due to Hit and Avo. Wil/Louise/Nino—I won’t pretend these units are anything but garbage. However, let it be quickly noted that they all lack sufficient Supports, and Fire is a killer affinity, so they wouldn’t mind a Rebecca Support were they ever played and were Rebecca ever free. Marcus has Lowen, Eliwood, Isadora, Harken, and Merlinus. Lowen—Lowen vastly prefers A Rebecca/B Eliwood. FirexFire and FirexAnima >>> FirexIce due to the grants of Atk/Crit (and Hit for FirexFire), which Lowen severely needs. Eliwood—Eliwood wants A Hector/B Lowen. His Hector Support is uber fast and Lowen grants Atk, which Eliwood would prefer to more Def as he his defensive parameters are already good. Isadora—similar to Wil/Louise/Nino, Isadora is not very good. Merlinus—the impracticality of this Support should be obvious, as Merlinus doesn’t move for the majority of the game. Harken—It’s not likely to get past a C due to the late starting time, so whatever. It doesn’t matter. So, Rebecca has Dart, Lowen, Sain, and Raven, all of whom greatly desire her as a Support option, whereas Marcus only has Harken lategame, which holds little significance. Rebecca’s Supports are clearly better than Marcus’. Let’s do an endgameish stat check. 20/10 Rebecca, A Lowen/B Dart Killer Bow: 30.2 Atk, 154 Hit, 70 Crit, 22.7 AS | 37.8 HP, 88.4 Avo, 9.2 Def, 11.4 Res Silver Bow: 35.2 Atk, 154 Hit, 40 Crit, 23.7 AS | 37.8 HP, 90.4 Avo, 9.2 Def, 11.4 Res 20/12 Marcus, C Harken Killer Axe: 29.3 Atk, 115.65 Hit, 42.25 Crit, 13.8 AS | 38.1 HP, 43.9 Avo, 11.6 Def, 11.8 Res Silver Axe: 33.3 Atk, 120.65 Hit, 12.25 Crit, 13.8 AS | 38.1 HP, 43.9 Avo, 11.6 Def, 11.8 Res Lol, Rebecca leads in Atk, Hit, Crit, AND AS as far as offense and then she has a massive Avoid lead compared to Marcus’ measly 2-point Def lead and 1-point HP lead. And then Rebecca is benefiting her Support partners more. This isn’t a light thing—granting a total of 25 Avoid, 25 Crit, 5 Atk, and 25 Hit (to two units who could use it, no less) is the equivalence of using several Speedwings, Goddess Icons, Secret Books, and Energy Rings. Just to get that Avoid, either 6-7 Speedwings or 12-13 Goddess icons would have to be used. Then 25 Secret Books for that Crit. 2-3 Energy Rings for that Atk. That many statboosters don’t even _exist_ in this game. Rebecca is winning here. Let’s rewind back to midgame. I’ll be generous to Marcus’ level and assume that he reaches 20/6 by this time, despite being a detriment to EXP Rank. 20/1 Rebecca, A Lowen/B Dart Killer Bow: 26.6 Atk, 131 Hit, 67.8 Crit, 17.3 AS | 32.4 HP, 73.1 Avo, 7.8 Def, 8.7 Res 20/6 Marcus Killer Axe: 27.5 Atk, 104.8 Hit, 39 Crit, 12.2 AS | 34.2 HP, 33.9 Avo, 10.7 Def, 9.8 Res Rebecca is leading in Hit, Crit, and AS by significant amounts vs. Marcus' Atk lead of 1, so she’s taking it offensively. Let me emphasize the AS a moment, though. Marcus can only double enemies that have 8 or less AS, whereas Rebecca can double anything that has 13 or less AS. Even the fastest enemies have at most ~12-13 AS at this time, so Rebecca is doubling everything, compared to Marcus, who can’t double anything that has over 8 AS. Quite a big margin. Defensively, 2 HP, 3 Def, and 1 Res <<<<<< ~40 Avoid. And Rebecca’s benefiting those Support partners here, as well, so it’s clear who’s winning. Rebecca has both midgame and lategame. Before you make arguments concerning Marcus' earlygame utility, let me intercept you in saying that whatever "earlygame usefulness" Marcus possesses spears itself upon the massive EXP detriment that you face when using him therein. I expect you to say something along the lines of, “But he helps the other ranks!” I’ll admit that he does, to a certain extent, help the early Tactics/Survival ranks, you’re right. However, using Marcus also requires using EXP fillers—most of whom, due to their underlevelledness, are not great at combat, so in turn they’re _hurting_ your Tactics/Survival ranks later on (hard to keep alive + need to have kills set up for them). Not only that, but using a filler means that your main party is losing out on EXP, so Marcus is indirectly lowering the party’s levels later on, a further strain on Tactics/Survival (lower stats = harder to satisfy ranks). This negates his earlygame benefit. Basically, to summarize this outline, Rebecca slaughters Marcus statistically midgame and lategame, and during the only time where he could possibly have had a win due to Jeigan utility, earlygame, he’s being detrimental to your EXP Rank (and his traded benefit is largely negated, as well, due to the later use of fillers). As soon as she builds her first Support level, she has a massive advantage over Marcus (giving others Support bonuses = win, and it only continues to increase until it levels off at 5 levels), as well, and from there on it’s downhill for the old man. Rebecca > Marcus. EDIT: Fixed an error. |
| this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER | |
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| Big Boss | Sep 14 2007, 06:21 PM Post #3 |
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Buena suerte a ti también, señor Borde Carmesí.
%::% Soez, supports.
Just to let you know, Lowen is more durable with a Marcus support rather than with a Rebecca support (same Avo, more Def, more Crt evade). Marcus support is also considerably faster (Rebecca B is 78 turns, Marcus A is 75 turns). So, when 78 turns have passed, we have 1 Def, 5 Hit, 5 Avo, 7 CEV against 1 Atk and 3 Crt. Marcus support is clearly looking better here. Another point to consider is how well Marcus and Lowen work as a team. Marcus being near Lowen is a magnificent help as Lowen's offense is shaky before promotion. Let's see an example for chapter 12: Brigand. 24 HP, 3 Def Rebecca. 10 Atk Lowen. 12(+1) Atk Marcus. 20 (+1) Atk Iron weapons for everyone (Marcus and Lowen have swords, for WTA). They don't double (Marcus is carrying a unit). We can see that Marcus-Lowen team kill the enemy in one round, while Lowen-Rebecca doesn't. And this is just at the first chapter. Tell me, Solid, what happens when you fight more sturdy units like Armors and cavaliers? On top of that, Marcus and Lowen are easier to keep together so the support is active for more time. Clearly a better support, so Lowen goes with A Marcus, B Rebecca.
No, Priscilla prefers Raven over Guy. Guy gives Atk, Raven gives Def. Priscilla doesn't attack for a very long time, so the defense is more welcome. Also, even tough Guy joins earlier, the support is much slower, so Raven-Pris can be completed earlier. Then Raven gets Lucius as his B. Lucius gets the much needed full def boost. Rebecca gives more avoid, yes, but Lucius is a healer after promotion, so in actual practice, Raven is more durable when standing near Lucius. Lucius support is also much faster.
Not using Dart>>using Dart. Ocean seal has a value of 50k gold, Earth seal 20k, and regular promo items 10k. If we want to spend 50k gold on promotion, we have the choice of promoting Dart, or promoting other 4-5 units for the same price. Clearly obvious which is the wisest choice. Then Dart's joining situation is pretty bad. He doesn't have good starting Spd, subpar Hit and mediocre defensive stats. He shouldn't be used.
Garbage units have no place in a ranked run. Nino may be used for 1-2 chapters, for experience rank purpose, but then she gets dropped of the team. As for Wil and Louise, using more than 1 sniper=lol
Lowen is already full with Marcus and Rebecca, so Marcus can get his B suport. This is it for my supports argument, so let's see what happens with your comparisons. First, the endgame one. 20/10 Rebecca. B Lowen, B Sain. Killer Bow: 31.2 Atk, 149 Hit, 65 Crit, 22.7 AS | 37.8 HP, 78.4 Avo, 9.2 Def, 11.4 Res Silver Bow: 35.2 Atk, 149 Hit, 35 Crit, 23.7 AS | 37.8 HP, 80.4 Avo, 9.2 Def, 11.4 Res 20/12 Marcus. A Lowen, B Eliwood. Killer Axe: 31.3 Atk, 136.6 Hit, 47.2 Crit, 13.8 AS | 38.1 HP, 63.9 Avo, 14.6 Def, 14.8 Res Silver Axe: 35.3 Atk, 136.6 Hit, 17.2 Crit, 13.8 AS | 38.1 HP, 63.9 Avo, 14.6 Def, 14.8 Res Oh, btw, I added the S rank bonus for Marcus. While Rebecca has better AS, Marcus doubles the majority of enemies out there. Plus, Marcus is actually attacking during the enemy phase, so overall he is dealing more damage. Defensively, Marcus almost always matches Rebecca in avoid thanks to weapon triangle control, and has more solid defense and resistance. Marcus' class offers more utility value, such as visiting villages faster and rescuing people. Also, since Marcus gets supports, that negates your long stat up items argument thing. In fact, Marcus' supports are better because he is fully supported. Rewinding back to midgame. 20/1 Rebecca, B Lowen, B Sain Killer Bow: 27.6 Atk, 131 Hit, 57.8 Crit, 17.3 AS | 32.4 HP, 63.1 Avo, 7.8 Def, 8.7 Res 20/8 Marcus A Lowen, B Eliwood. Killer Axe: 30.1 Atk, 132 Hit, 46 Crit, 12.8 AS | 35.5 HP, 60.7 Avo, 14Def, 13.4Res Marcus' level was a bit low. From the starting chapter to this point, there are about 15 chapters, counting sidequests, so Marcus could have easily gained 7 levels. I added his S rank bonus for this one, too. Once again, Rebecca only has AS, but Marcus is doubling fine. Defensively, Marcus crushes Rebecca. He has only 3 less avoid without factoring WTA, a minor lead in HP and a solid lead in Def and Res. As always, the character's classes give an advantage to Marcus in offense and usefulness. Marcus is better mid and lategame, and I honestly don't feel like I need to elaborate earlygame, but still...
Definitelysawthiscoming/10 Let's see. Rebecca's base defensive stats suck too much. You aren't taking the risk of her being attacked so she's only weakening for 10 exp per turn. Marcus gets 3 EXP by weakening, 6 since he should attack during both phases. He may even attack 3 times and get 9 experience. Dealing more damage to 2-3 enemies>>scratching 1 enemy. You would have a point if Marcus was actually killing. And Marcus not only helps your ranks, he helps other people by setting easy kills, preventing damage and fulfilling certain objectives, such as recruiting Priscilla.
Using Marcus requires fillers? Not rly. You don't even have fillers for some time, since all your team is at a low level. The first underleveled unit I can think of is Raven, but he starts great. Other one I can think of is Heath, who has nice defensive bases so he doesn't hurt survival, and Rath, who snipes from the back so he doesn't die. Using Raven, Rath and Heath help your experience rank. The very few experience you didn't gain by using Marcus is recovered here, and you still got Marcus' h4x benefits. If anything, fillers are an argument in my favour.
Alright. Summary. Marcus wtfraeps Rebecca earlygame stat and utility wise and is still better midgame. By lategame is when Rebecca has a chance, but she is still not impressing anyone. Rebecca has no answer to Marcus' massive help to ranks, and her class hurts her a lot. When you are not biased against Marcus and give him supports, you can clearly see he is the better unit. Marcus>>>>> |
 ^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan | |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Sep 17 2007, 04:42 PM Post #4 |
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%::%
Indeed, and that had nothing to do with what I was saying, so it's irrelevant. What you managed to conveniently ignore, however, was: Lowen vastly prefers A Rebecca/B Eliwood. FirexFire and FirexAnima >>> FirexIce due to the grants of Atk/Crit (and Hit for FirexFire), which Lowen severely needs. For Lowen, the added offense >>> the added defense.
A few more chapters with one more level of Support <<< better bonuses for a longer amount of time.
And when 118 turns have passed, we have 2 Atk and 8 Crt vs. 1 Def (lol, CEV's totally worthless), and the latter circumstance lasts throughout the rest of the game. This game has 28 chapters counting gaidens. If Lowen's A Rebecca finishes in ~12 chapters, then that's still ~16 chapters where Rebecca's Support is better than Marcus', and the later chapters of the game are considerably longer than the early chapters, so it’s around for more turns, as well. 2 Atk translates into 4 Atk per double, which is very nice on a unit that struggles with one of the game’s worst offensive stat sets. The 1 Def, however, Lowen will barely ever notice because he’s the best tank in the game. That’s similar to giving Hector an Energy Ring instead of a Speedwing. Also, the C Support only differs by 17 turns, and when they’re at equal Support levels (for many turns, this is the case), the difference is again very strongly in Rebecca’s favor, so the Marcus Support isn’t necessarily better for those _entire_ 12 chapters, whereas the Rebecca Support is better for those _entire_ 16 chapters. “but mounted” Yes, and this will come in handy the entire two or so times that you move both Lowen and Marcus to the full extent of their Move while not attacking any enemies. It’s approximately cancelled out since high Move units are also the ones who go to visit villages and such, so the actual speed at which the Support progresses is barely altered. In fact, far more significant is the fact that Rebecca has constant 2 range. That means she can attack from diagonal squares, so when Rebecca and Lowen attack the same enemy, Rebecca can be Supporting Lowen that turn as well (meanwhile, for Marcus to have 2 range available all the time, he loses Crit/Atk from not using Killer/Silver weaponry). Rebecca Support >>> Marcus Support.
"And this is just the first chapter." Of course it is. In earlier chapters, Marcus has better raw statistics than everyone, so naturally this is true. The stat comparisons listed in my post showed Rebecca to have better offense than Marcus when it's not earlygame, however, and Lowen's offense is better with a Rebecca Support than it is with a Marcus Support, so it logically follows that Rebecca + Lowen's offense >>> Marcus + Lowen's offense at that time. Either way, "total offense" doesn't matter, since you're not using only two units in the game, so I don’t know what you’re trying to say. What the actual partner deals damagewise has no relevance to what the Support is doing. Not Supporting them doesn’t mean they can’t attack the same enemy (nor does Supporting them imply they must attack the same enemy). If you’re saying Marcus > Rebecca in stats earlygame, then that’s already obvious (the problem is with EXP, not stats), so you’ve proved just about nothing. Armors? Good thing Lowen has that Crit/Atk boost from his Rebecca Support. Even earlygame, Rebecca gives more Crit and Atk to Lowen than Marcus does, so he’s always better offensively with a Rebecca Support than he is with a Marcus Support. _Always_, even if it’s A Marcus vs. B Rebecca.
Marcus can’t transfer stats over to Lowen by standing next to him, what are you talking about? He can weaken a unit for Lowen to finish, but that has nothing to do with the Support. Oh, so you admit Lowen’s offense is shaky. Good thing his Rebecca Support gives him more Attack/Crit than his Marcus Support.
Nowhere in my post did I imply that they would be used. I said _if_ they were ever used, they would Support Rebecca, which is true. Either way, lol, I have no problem “conceding” this, as it has no bearing whatsoever on my case.
No, 14, 15, 16, 17, ~4 chapters. Guy can easily be nearing or at a C with Priscilla by the time Raven shows up, so the Supports finish at about the same time. If there's a difference, it's fairly negligible. Anyway, it gives 8 more Crit and 2 more Atk, which is way better than 1 Defense for Priscilla, especially since by the time the bonuses are fully in effect, Priscilla is promoted (before then, she’s a healer, so she should never be getting attacked anyway, but the Mag boost still helps for healing). Defense on a unit like Priscilla is almost entirely put to waste—1 point of Def is not going to save her from being OHKO’d or 2HKO’d. It’s Avo she wants, and Guy already gives her the same Avo that Raven does, so then she looks to that juicy 2 Atk and 8 Crit. Priscilla also has constant 1-2 range + Physic, so she doesn't ever get counterattacked on Player Phase (and attacked less than most on Enemy Phase, since 1-2 range + high Move + Physic allows you to position yourself more strategically). Also, Supports work both ways. With full Supports, Guy has the game’s highest Crit value and, thus, the game’s biggest offense. If he doesn’t get Prsicilla, whom is he going to have to round out his Supports? -10 Crit/-2 Atk/-5 Avo for Guy is significant. For one, it moves his Crit value from “almost 100% reliable” to “good, but not always 100% reliable.” For two, it lowers his already borderline Atk by a full 2 points, meaning 4 less damage per double, 6 less damage on a Crit, and 12 less damage in two Crits. Sure, Guy would still be a good unit, but is it not a much better idea to simply Support Raven with Rebecca? Indeed. Then you listed Lucius, who has possibly the game’s worst durability (maybe Lyn aside), even with a Raven Support. Lucius won’t be used the majority of the time. So even if Raven took Priscilla, he wants a second Support, and Rebecca’s available for that purpose. So, let’s see, for Rebecca to not get this Support… 1.) Lucius must be in play 2.) Priscilla must be in play 3.) Guy must NOT be in play Lol, all three of those happening = no. The other alternative is that Raven just isn’t in play, but that’s just as “lol”
wut. No. That’s not how it works. For Dart’s promotion cost to interfere with others’ promotions, you’d have to be using like 20+ units. Each unit in this game, on a 12-unit team, gets 29k to spend. -10k for promoting. Now, you’re likely to have prepromotes on your team—that saves you money. You’re likely to be using Ninian, who doesn’t use money at all, so that saves you 29k. You’re likely to be using Magic users, who don’t have to buy Killer/Silver Weapons, so that saves you money. Hector doesn’t have a promotion cost, so that saves you 10k. Fillers shouldn’t be promoting, so that saves you money. Dart spends his 29k and then goes 21k over. From Ninian’s share alone, you have enough to promote Dart and still have everyone promote and use Killers and everything. No problems that I can see. Funds in this game is a joke.
Perhaps for a bit, but with a little use he’s one of the best units in the game. Huge Spd + Str + Axes + Crit Boost? w1n Anyway, even if Dart weren’t used, Rebecca would take B Sain. Doesn’t matter much to her. She loses some Avoid, but her Avoid is still great, so meh. The fact is, Rebecca has a _fallback_. Marcus, meanwhile, is never above 3rd on any useful unit’s list, so far from a fallback, he doesn’t even have Supports most of the time. Oh, or Rebecca could get A Raven and still get full Avoid.
You somehow ignored the “Eliwood x Lowen > Marcus x Lowen” bit in my post. Fire x Anima >>> Fire x Ice for much the same reasons as Fire x Fire was >>> Fire x Ice. In this case, Lowen gets less Crit, but the Def gains are equal, and then there’s still Atk left over. Lowen x Eliwood is also faster than Rebecca vs. Lowen, so it makes sense that what applied for the latter in terms of chapters (16 > 12) will apply to the former. Lowen wants B Eliwood more than he wants B Marcus. And then, let’s not forget that Eliwood also prefers Atk and Crit to Def (again, lol @ more CEV), since he already has fairly good defensive parameters but is not as good offensively, so Eliwood himself would also prefer a Lowen Support to a Marcus Support. So, basically, Lowen’s full and Eliwood’s full. Marcus goes with nothing.
ROFL @ the 10 vs. 9 comparison. Enemies don’t change on a turn-by-turn basis, nor does EXP/turn have any relevance--EXP/enemy does. The amount of enemies in a given chapter is set. If Marcus weakens three enemies and gets 9 EXP, others could have weakened those same three enemies and gotten 30 EXP, so in reality you’re losing 21 EXP, not 1. That’s where the Tactics-EXP tradeoff comes in. You lose 21 EXP, and in turn you weaken enemies faster. To make that EXP up later, however, you have to use fillers, so the Tactics “benefit” is actually nonexistent. And actually it’s even more than 21 EXP, because if an enemy takes 3 hits to kill, and Marcus whittles its HP down so it takes 1 hit to kill, you’re losing out on an entirely separate attack somewhere there. It’s something like 30-40 EXP every three enemies. Meanwhile, Rebecca can be safely used without hurting the EXP Rank. She’s actually helpful due to being a ranged attacker early on, and she can help damage Pegs in early HHM. Using her earlygame is a good idea, but using Marcus earlygame is not. Also, since she’s ranged, she can fill in little niches, never get attacked on Enemy Phase, and never take counters on Player, so there’s no reason NOT to use her early on, especially since she’s not using a character select slot for a bit. Then once her stats/Supports start building up she becomes h4xer and h4xer. If anything, Rebecca is winning earlygame.
You say “not rly” but then you never go on to prove anything about why fillers don’t have to be used—you only mention the fillers themselves.
If Heath, Rath, and Raven are being used only as fillers and are taking away levels from my main team, that’s a bad thing. A bad thing I could have avoided had I not used Marcus. This isn’t FE9, where there’s BEXP for finishing faster and no EXP rank. Also, as you progress through the game, your characters get higher leveled but you still see unpromoted enemies, so your EXP gains later often fail to meet the EXP requirements. S-ing EXP is easier if you distribute your party’s levels throughout the game. Under that premise, Marcus is actually _at the same level_ as Rebecca in those comparisons I listed in my first post, since he shouldn’t be used until everyone is 20/1. Let’s check it out. 20/1 Rebecca, A Lowen/B Dart (or B Sain, doesn’t matter) Killer Bow: 26.6 Atk, 131 Hit, 67.8 Crit, 17.3 AS | 32.4 HP, 73.1 Avo, 7.8 Def, 8.7 Res 20/1 Marcus Killer Axe: 26 Atk, 99 Hit, 37.5 Crit, 11.0 AS| 31 HP, 30 Avo, 8.0 Def, 8.0 Res Rebecca wins offense due to Crit/AS. Rebecca wins defense due to Avo h4x. Rebecca has Supports. Rebecca >>> Marcus by a greater margin than before. That’s what happens when you distribute EXP out evenly so that you don’t have to use fillers. However, it wouldn’t even matter if Marcus were 20/6-20/8—as shown in the first post, he’d _still_ be losing.
Marcus isn’t S’ing Axes if he wants to have his precious WTA. He has an A in Lances and an A in Swords. Since he’s going to be using all three more or less equally, he’s going to S-Rank one of his A’s.
For the S Rank, see above comment. About the 15 chapters—it’s not how many levels he _can_ get, it’s how many he _should_ get, and he shouldn’t get many due to EXP Rank.
Lol, “definitelysawthiscoming/10” Don’t pretend like Rebecca isn’t attacking during Enemy Phase. She’s just not attacking as much as melee units. There exist plenty (especially in HHM) of 1-2 ranged physical enemies, magical enemies, and Bow enemies, and she can lure them all into her range and force them to evoke a counterattack. In that capacity, she’s the single best character for dealing with HHM Valkyries, perhaps the most threatening enemies in the game. Due to her >90 Avoid, the Valkyries have less than 2% real chance to _hit_ her, let alone kill her (the kill chance is much less than 1% real), 0% real if she’s on terrain. Then, unlike magical tanks that can also handle Valks, Rebecca attacks Def, so she’ll do more damage than they can. Being the #1 candidate for handling the most threatening enemy in the game >>> There’s more than just that. A normal unit has 7 Atk range after promotion. Rebecca has 8. That means that she can outrange a Hero (or a Berserker, which is also threatening—and which, coincidentally, often uses a Tomahawk) and attack him on the Player Phase, whereas most others would have to equip a weak ranged weapon to do so and sacrifice the needed Crit or Atk power. w1n for Rebecca. Her class is actually being an _advantage_ for her here. Oh, but you say Marcus can outrange Heroes as well? Lol, sure, but he doesn’t double them, unlike Rebecca. He actually gets doubled by them (he has 13-14 AS, Heroes have 17-18). Being one of the few units who can successfully outrange and kill the second most threatening enemy in the game >>> getting doubled by said enemy. Which brings me to another point. While lack of melee range can be worked around a lot of the time, Marcus’ lack of Speed cannot. In the lategame, 20/10-12 Marcus can’t double Heroes, Wyvern Riders, Wyvern Lords, Swordmasters, Nomads, Nomad Troopers, Berserkers, Warriors, Snipers, Valkyries, and Paladins. And lategame is when enemy Speed has had the _most_ time to fail, so this is Marcus doubling at his best. Speed growths are very, very low (a Hero has 20%), but bases are very high. Yes, Marcus doubles unpromoted enemies. No one is impressed, since most everyone on your team can do that. Marcus’ offense isn’t just worse than Rebecca’s—it’s worse than most characters’ offenses on the team. As for a lot of the enemies he _does_ double, his Speed is borderline. The RNG generates at random. Stats are rarely exact. So it could go a point down or a point up—doubling all the time >>> doubling only when your stats are average or better. Stats are way more important than class. And Rebecca’s stats are amazing. Her Crit, for example, is one of the best in the game. Guy is often considered the best unit in the game despite lacking 2 range and only having average Move. Why is that? It’s because of Crit. With Guy’s Crit, he has nearly a 98% chance to kill any enemy in the game. Fully Supported Rebecca at 20/1 has 67.8 Crit with a Killer Bow. That’s ~90% chance to Crit once on a double. That means 90% chance to kill virtually any enemy in the game like Guy. The probability, indeed, is that she’ll _double Crit_ instead of single Crit. In the face of that, not being able to counterattack melee isn’t terribly important at all. And then most attacking is completed on the Player Phase—especially for Rebecca, who can outrange and usually Crit + KO the average unit. Rebecca can also function as a tank with her high Avoid, so not countering on the Enemy Phase even when she is attacked doesn’t matter for her. She can lure enemies in so your other characters can reach them, much like Oswin, except that she has more Move. And unlike Oswin, Rebecca takes 0 damage from _both_ physical and magical (massive Avoid >>> massive Def). h4x
Hold on there, Jetro. Even under this situation (which shouldn’t exist since Marcus won’t have full Supports), Rebecca would have either A Dart or A Raven. B Sain’s about her last choice. Both of those raise her Avoid by 10. 20/10 Rebecca has 90.4 Avoid with those Supports and a Silver Bow, not 80.4, so the Avoid gap is larger than you claim (or if she had A Lowen, which she should, but we’re being generous to Marcus here—very generous). Lol, WTA? Well, Rebecca can never suffer WTD, whereas Marcus can (and in later chapters, where enemies have varied weapons, he most likely will), so that cancels out “WTA control.” On Player Phase, which is when Marcus will have WTA, Rebecca doesn’t take a counterattack from melee, so she w1ns. On Enemy Phase, chances are that the enemies that are going to attack Marcus will have WTA on him. He also doesn’t have WTA to Magic or Bows, which form a significant portion of the enemy total. So it’s 20ish Avoid vs. 5ish Def and 3ish Res. If a physical enemy has 30 Atk and 100 Hit (averaging out WTD and WTA): Marcus takes 15.4 damage @ ~26.28% real, dies in 3 Rebecca takes 20.8 damage @ ~1.71% real, dies in 2 Chance of Marcus dying after 4 attacks = 5.83% Chance of Rebecca dying after 4 attacks = << 1% Rebecca = w1nn4r And against magical, it’s even worse than this, since the Res gap isn’t as big as the Def gap between the two.
On the contrary, it remains. Now, here’s the settler: Even when Marcus has full Supports, Rebecca manages to keep up or be better statistically. In your lategame comparison, it’s Crit, AS, and Avoid vs. Def and Res. Rebecca is the winner there. She still has that Huge Avoid and that Huge Crit for offensive and defensive h4x, and then she doubles a lot more. In your midgame comparison, Marcus was 20/8, which is a ludicrous assumption. Even so, Rebecca’s Crit and AS are greater for offensive purposes and then, once you apply A Dart or A Raven to her, it’s again Avoid vs. Def/Res. Rebecca is arguably the winner. But what happens in the more likely case that Marcus has no Supports, Jeigan? That’s right, he stands no chance against Rebecca. It’s not arguable at all. View the first post again, please. Even with a single Support, he wouldn’t be a match.
Nice skewing. “Very few.” 700 EXP for Marcus, under a 3:1 ratio, would mean about 2100 EXP lost—by using Marcus, I just negated Ninian’s EXP gain entirely and then some (like, 800 EXP left over after Ninian goes from 7 to 20), so I need to make that up somehow. How am I going to do that, Snake? Tell me. I do want to know. w8….you mean….use fillers!?!?!?!?! Bingo. And using fillers means that I have to set up kills for them. That’s obviously a bad thing, as it wastes Turns. Then, fillers take levels from the rest of your party, also a bad thing. Then, fillers don’t have Supports, so that means they’re not as durable as your main party. No, not even Heath and Rath. Heath’s Def is by no means impressive, especially since he has a weakness to Bows and not-stellar Avo. Rath’s worse off. “Rath snipes from the back” is laughable since that would imply I have to protect him or wall him in, which is phail.
What? Using Marcus doesn’t allow you to use fillers—you can do that either way. What are you talking about? However, _having_ to use fillers <<<< not. It’s painfully obvious. Rebecca > Marcus, earlygame, midgame, and lategame. |
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| Big Boss | Sep 22 2007, 02:08 PM Post #5 |
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It was pretty relevant. The whole case depends on that statement </Phoenix Wright> >_> Anyway, your original statement was:
My counter was relevant as I proved how Lowen is more durable with a Marcus support than with a Rebecca support. For the support setup I suggest (A Marcus, B Rebecca) Lowen gets only 2 less Atk than with (A Rebecca, B Eliwood) in exchange for support bonuses for a longer time considering Lowen needs them the most during the earliest part of the game. How does 2 Atk compensate? It's not enough to make Lowen's offense considerably better.
I can't counter when you don't back up your claims. Please show me how 2 more Atk helps him more.
Any unit earlygame (except Marcus, Oswin and Hector) are far from durable, so Lowen receiving Marcus' defensive support definitely helps. As for later chapters, I'll take an example of Cog of Destiny. A Hero has 46 HP and 12 DEF 20/10 Lowen, A Marcus, B Rebecca, Steel lance. Deals 16 damage. Kills in 3 rounds. 20/10 Lowen, A Rebecca, B Marcus. Steel lance. Deals 18 damage. Kills in 3 rounds. +2 Atk is making zero difference. Against unpromoted shit and Bishops/druid that he can double, he has no trouble one rounding with his A Marcus, B Rebecca setup. For those 17 turns that the Marcus support was active, and for the times when Marcus and Lowen use their movement at their fullest, the support is better. Rebecca's support is never better. Now, why should you should fully use their movement and not attack? That is ridiculous. Marcus and Lowen are great options for weakening units faster so weak units like Rebecca can get easy kills. When they save villages, there are also enemies nearby. Clear examples are the village in Merlinus sidequest (brigands trying to destroy it, some nomads along the way) and the village where Priscilla is (some cavaliers near, pirates coming that way). Also, when Marcus and Lowen go on errands like this, Rebecca is left behind, so the Marcus support will be even faster. As for the 2-range argument, Marcus can equip a handaxe/javelin so he can attack from diagonal squares, so when Marcus and Lowen attack the same enemy, Marcus can be Supporting Lowen that turn as well. By the time you give Marcus Silver/Killer weaponry the support will be complete and they just need to stand 3 squares near each other to receive the bonus. Marcus support is by far more versatile and offers benefits for longer, while Rebecca's extra attack lead makes no difference. Marcus support is clearly better.
Both of us agreed that Lowen's offense is not good, so obviously the best course of action is to have him near a unit who can help him get some kills. Marcus is obviously better than this than Rebecca. Sure, supporting them doesn't mean they should attack the same enemy, but at this point is the best thing to do and it makes the support grow faster.
Taking a look at an armor of Whereabouts unknown, with 27 HP and 12 DEF a Marcus-Lowen team takes it down in 1 turn. On the other hand, a level 7 Rebecca is dealing 0 damage. More Crit? lol. If Lowen has C with both, Rebecca offers 2 more crit. If you can prove that 2 Crit means something, go ahead.
Weakening units is w1n. Helping the unit that will be the best tank in the game to kill faster while receiving less damage pwns. And by standing near each other, Marcus is giving him support bonuses. Good thing Lowen's Marcus support makes his life way easier earlygame while the Rebecca support makes almost no difference.
Okay, then. I guess joining earlier balances with faster support, so they would finish at about the same time.
Mag boost? lolwut? supports increase the total attack after Str/Mag and weapon have been factored. They have no effect on the actual Mag stat. Priscilla always heals the same, no matter which supports she gets. At any rate, Guy is already getting A Matthew. The most he can get from Priscilla is B. Raven gets A. So Lucius and Rebecca phyte for Raven's B support...
lol, no. Moar liek... 1.) Lucius must be in play 2.) Priscilla must be in play 3.) Guy doesn't matter. Guy's existance isn't relevant. If he isn't fielded, then Priscilla is left without her B support, but Raven still gets his A. Since Priscilla is pretty much always in play, the only condition needed so Rebecca doesn't get Raven's support, is that Lucius is fielded. Quite reasonable since he has great offense and after promotion gets a C in staves.
20+ units? No, I'm talking about a regular sized team. You use 12 units so I'll go with that. I can have a team of 12 units (without Dart), or I can have a team of 8 units (Dart included) for the same prize. And if I have a team of 8 units, they will have higher overall levels and will eventually hurt my experience rank. Having 12 units with a better experience distribution is more efficient. Plus, Dart will want Killers and stuff later on, so he further hurts your funds.
At the moment he joins, his stats are pretty bad. He can't double, he can even get doubled by some nomads and his defensive parameters are not good. Using him means you hurt tactics and combat on top of the hit your funds rank take from promoting him. Marcus gets supports, unless you want to make him look bad so you win the debaet. With the support setup I offer, everyone gets full supported, except Rebecca, but she only misses a C support. You, however, give full supports to everyone but Marcus. Bias, too much? Oh, and Rebecca can't get A Raven because he gets A Priscilla.
Same as with Lowen-Rebecca, a nit more attack on Eliwood won't make a difference. More defense for a longer time means he can be at the front more reliably. Plus, when Eliwood reaches level 20/0, he isn't fighting until you get the Heaven seal, so Lowen's offensive support gets useless for a while. To summarize this part about supports: Eliwood-A Hector, B Marcus Lowen-A Marcus, B Rebecca Marcus-A Lowen, B Eliwood So, basically, Lowen full, Eliwood full and Marcus full>>>> Lowen full, Eliwood full, Marcus nothing.
lol. Of course 3 units>1 unit. 3 units getting attacked also get you more experience than if only Rebecca attacks, but that doesn't make her an experience hog. You have proved absolutely nothing, as this is a Macrus vs Rebecca debaet, not Marcus vs 3 units. What concerns us are experience gains of Marcus vs Rebecca, as well as their effects. Marcus can get 9 experience from attacking 3 enemies, so other enemies get the kill and you advance faster. Rebecca gets 1 more experience but doesn't help you progress nearly as fast as Marcus. Marcus offers by far greater benefits while giving you the same experience as Rebecca per turn. He is is not by any means a detriment for the exp. rank.
Marcus can also help against the pegasus so that crappy Rebecca can kill them. That's a plu for Marcus. Rebecca is ranged, so what? Marcus can be ranged as well, but then Rebecca doesn't have the option for being melee. Marcus wins thar. As for the enemy phase, some enemies have ranged weapons and pegasus have huge range, Rebecca being there puts you in a much more dangerous situation than Marcus being there. Marcus is not only more durable, he also helps other units to receive less damage because of weakening. Rebecca is a joke compared to Marcus earlygame.
I already proved that Marcus doesn't hurt the experience rank when compared to Rebecca. That proves that fillers are not needed.
Raven is not only going to be used as a filler. His low level, however, helps to recover the 1 exp per turn you lost by using Marcus. h4x. Then you get to use Rath and Heath at least during the chapter they join, not to mention Heath is awesome once leveled. The experience rank is not being hurt.
You don't need fillers when Marcus is used, as I already proved. Marcus can get leveled without hurting your exp rank. I also proved how Marcus gets supports. Your comparison makes no sense.
Okay, it's a very minor point so it doesn't matter.
Earlygame, you don't want Rebecca to get attacked during enemy phase with her 17 HP, 3 DEF, unless you want your survival rank to be raped. I'll concede against the Valkyries, but about stuff like Heros and other enemies that are melee? Marcus actually wins because he gets to attack during both your phase and the enemy's phase. Winning against amost everything>>>winning against valks.
Good thing Marcus isn't a "normal (AKA unmounted) unit" Rebecca has 8 range, yes, Marcus has 10. Marcus winz here. Also, thos berzerkers you mention don't come alone, one may have a Tomahawk, but then other units that go with him can attack Rebecca close range and she won't do anything about it.
Marcus can get stuff like Swordslayer to pwn those heroes, not to mention that Rebecca is only able to attack during your phase, so her damage input is overall lower. Oh, and he can double Wyvern riders, I don't know what are you talking about.
Marcus can also work as a tank, since he has WTC and better raw defensive parameters. The difference between Marcus and Rebecca is that he can outrange by more and actually deal damage during your phase, so he's better.
Dart is too inconvenient to use, Raven gets A Priscilla. Marcus doesn't have zero supports.
Fortunately for Marcus, enemies are distributed in groups of units that use the same type of weapon. He is getting weapon triangle advantage almost all of the time which makes his avoid go as high as Rebecca's.
The question is why should Marcus get no supports? As I've proved, he should be getting supports, and when he does, he is in the same level as Rebecca, except that he has a better class, constant WTA and more importantly, Jeigan utility.
No, the amount of experience that you lose by using Marcus is almost nonexistant, and using Raven, and giving a few kills to Heath and Rath fix that. Not to mention that giving them kills during their joining chapter is easy. Rath is strong against wyverns, and most enemies have reaver weapons, so HEath + Iron lance or Axereaver kills with no risk of dying. Marcus gives awesome Jeigan utility in exchange for a minor experience loss that is later recovered, while Rebecca doesn't offer anything like that. Quite the opposite, actually, since she joins very weak. That means that I have to set up kills for her. That's obviously a bad thing, as it wastes turns.
 This statement contradicts how you said Rebecca's class was an advantage. Let's apply this argument to Rebecca: Rebecca snipes from the back” is laughable since that would imply I have to protect her or wall her in, which is phail.  Fits Rebecca perfectly. Not to mention, if Rath is used he has the alternative of using swords so he can attack during your turn and being mounted means he is much better at outranging. Rebecca is quite a burden during earlygame and she always has to be protected, which is pretty phail, don't you think?
Using Marcus =/= having to use fillers, since you lose almost no experience from using him. Marcus is significantly better than Rebecca earlygame, while mid and lategame Rebecca compares better but her class doesn't allow her to have overall better offense since she only attacks during your turn. Marcus has the uniqueness of Jeigan utility while Rebecca offers nothing new to the team. Marcus is easily the better unit. Also, Marcus has a much more badass official art and the paladin battle sprite>>>>>> |
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^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan | |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Sep 22 2007, 10:57 PM Post #6 |
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It doesn’t matter. If he’s already one of the best defensive units in the game, more defense isn’t going to help him. No matter which of the two Supports he gets, he is going to be one of the most durable units in the game, so your statement is indeed irrelevant.
The earliest part? Supports aren’t active for the “earliest part,” and the time difference between their C Supports is actually the smallest time difference there is.
You cleverly ignored the Crit, and also my main point. Ok, I’ll format my logic for you: Lowen’s Marcus Support gives him more defensive bonuses than his Rebecca Support. Lowen’s Rebecca Support gives him more offensive bonuses than his Marcus Support. Lowen is one of the most durable units in the game. He’s your best tank, in fact. Meanwhile, he's one of your worst offensive units. Which Support does he want more, Kratos? As for Support Level differences...Rebecca’s Support gives Lowen more Atk and Crit _even when_ it’s A Marcus vs. B Rebecca, so it’s still giving him offense vs. defense, and Lowen wants the offense. By about level 14 or so, when the Support time differences REALLY come into play (being negligible at C), Lowen is already a great unit defensively.
I can’t counter when you don’t back up your claims. Please show me how more time helps him more. Lol, see how that logic falls apart? Now, if you seriously want evidence, see the sequence above. Also, it’s not just 2 Atk, you forgot the Crit. And, actually, when you think about it, it’s not even “time and defense vs. offense.” The Rebecca Support grants an additional 1 Atk and 3 Crt even before the Supports are fully completed (A vs. B, for example), so there’s not really a time factor involved apart from the first 17 turns. So, in the end, it is JUST offense vs. defense, and it’s clear which Lowen prefers.
Not so. Level 14 Lowen has ~12 raw Defense and ~33-34 HP, which is nice indeed. To contrast, Hector has only about 2 more Defense and 3 less HP. And before you say “But level 5 Lowen,” remember that these Support bonuses aren’t doing much, if anything at all, until a ways into the game. Also, the same could be said for offense. “Any earlygame unit is far from 2HKOing, so Lowen receiving Rebecca’s offensive Support definitely helps.” So, again, we have offense vs. defense, in which case Lowen prefers his Rebecca Support.
First of all, don’t you mean A Rebecca/B Eliwood? That’s the setup I was proposing, and that’s the only way your calculations make sense. You use one particular example and say that +2 Atk makes no difference? Wow. If you really believe that, then I don’t even know what to say. That’s like saying “The fact that Unit A has 2 more Atk than Unit B doesn’t matter as 2 Atk isn’t helping at all against this one enemy.” What if that Hero had 1 more Defense? The first Lowen kills it in 4 hits, whereas the second Lowen kills it in 3. ZOMG, so it matters after all!!!!!! Enemy stats vary, you know. There ARE, indeed, going to be times at this point where that Atk doesn’t matter, but there are also going to be times when that Atk DOES matter. On the other hand, that 1 Defense is almost never going to matter. Lol, now, even your example is flawed. First of all, you left out the Crit again. Each of those attacks, Lowen #2 has some more% chance to Crit his enemy. That’s _certainly_ helping his offense. Anyway, the Attack alone is enough to win it; the Crit is just an added bonus. And notice how he does 4 more damage in two rounds of combat with the second setup? Yes. That makes it easier for others to kill off the enemy, as well. Don’t just assume that Lowen is alone against it. I expect you to bring up some examples of others and show how it doesn’t make a difference, but that’s entirely unimpressive, as whatever evidence you could provide would be situational. I’ll put it simply, so you can’t skew it again: for 2 Atk (and some Crit) to NOT make a difference, your offense would have to be amazing, and Lowen’s offense is quite far from amazing. On the other hand, his defenses ARE amazing, so 1 Def is almost never going to help him.
Please. Enemies are not 7 spaces apart from each other every single time. The only time the extra Move is going to come in handy for building the Support is when both are moving through a load of empty squares. This isn’t FE6, though, so that’s not happening a lot.
This has no relevance at all to the Support. Lowen Supporting Marcus is not going to make Lowen a better “weakener” than Lowen Supporting Rebecca. If anything, you have it reversed, since the Rebecca Support gives better offense.
They’re most likely not going to be going together in those cases. The enemy concentration on the way to the villages is very clearly less than the enemy concentration in the main part of the map (for 14, you can see that clearly by looking at the center of the map), so sending in two units isn’t worth it. A smart player will be sending in one. Thus, the Support isn’t progressing at all during that time.
On the contrary, you get Killer Weapons starting Chapter 20, before the Supports are entirely completed. “But that’s not many chapters.” No, it’s not, but the point was that it’s much more significant than the Move advantage, and it is. To finish up about this Support: -Offense >>> defense for a unit with the best defensive parameters in the game. It’s 2 Atk (and some Crit) vs. 1 Def—even if offense and defense mattered equally for Lowen, the former would very clearly be preferable. -“Around for a longer time” means basically 17 turns + maybe 5 turns for Move advantage. The rest of the turns in the game, Rebecca Support is better, for the reason above. K, now on to the next one.
O.K.? Are you implying that Rebecca is off to some far corner of the map while Marcus and Lowen are standing right next to each other? For that to happen you’d have to deliberately be trying not to Support them. If you’re not implying that, then what are you saying? I repeat: Marcus can’t transfer his offensive stats over to Lowen. It’s perfectly plausible for Rebecca and Lowen to attack the same enemy, as much as it is plausible for Marcus and Lowen to attack the same enemy. As mentioned above, people have fairly bad offense in the earlygame. This means that Marcus won’t exclusively be attacking enemies that Lowen is attacking, either. By the time others start getting better offense, the Supports are in place, and Rebecca’s offensively geared Support >>> Marcus’ defensively geared Support.
lol, total offense. Again, you don’t seem to be getting this: Lowen Supporting Marcus is not going to mean that Marcus’ offense is suddenly added on to Lowen’s. How much Marcus is doing damagewise has no relevance _whatsoever_ to whether or not they should Support And what is this at the cost of, again? That’s right, EXP.
More Crit and more Atk (it's 8 Crit at A vs. A, by the way). It’s certainly more significant than the zero, in terms of offensive advantages, that a Marcus Support offers over a Rebecca Support.
And hurting your EXP rank sucks.
Good, you agree.
My bad. It doesn’t matter much, however, whereas the rest of the passage about which bonuses Priscilla prefers, which you didn’t try to counter, does. I’ll assume you conceded that.
Erk doesn’t exist? Erk would like a Priscilla Support, kthxbai. Erk’s only other good Support is Pent, and that’s not for a while, so Erk really wants a Priscilla Support. A Erk >>>> A Raven. It differs by only 1 turn for the A, so the Erk Support is actually faster since it starts earlier (and Erk has range for flexibility of placement before promotion). Then, for the bonuses, it’s Hit vs. Crit. Guess which Priscilla prefers? %::% Raven doesn’t get Priscilla.
Priscilla is always in play? What about Serra? “Priscilla > Serra.” No, not by a huge margin. Serra has a much higher level due to LHM (tests done by Reikken have estimates as high a level lead of 11 levels by Chapter 14 if you’re getting 19xx, and other estimates may be around 7-8 levels, and healers can’t close level gaps). The probability of Lucius being played = the probability of Priscilla not being played, more or less. While Lucius is good offensively, his defenses are game-low, horrendous. And lol, Staves. By promotion you have so many Staff users you don’t need another one anyway. Oh, and indeed, Guy’s presence does matter after all. Erk is Priscilla’s most canon Support. Raven is trying to get a B with her. Whenever Guy is played, which is almost always, Raven can’t get a B with Priscilla. So, again, Lucius has to be in play, Priscilla has to be in play, and Guy has to NOT be in play. All of those happening = lol.
No, it doesn’t come down to an option of “I can have this or I can have that.” You have enough money in this game to promote Dart and STILL promote everyone else and STILL be using Killers and such with everyone all the time, as I showed in the passage you quoted. Ninian alone adds 29k to the bank. I can only assume you misread the passage: wut. No. That’s not how it works. For Dart’s promotion cost to interfere with others’ promotions, you’d have to be using like 20+ units. Each unit in this game, on a 12-unit team, gets 29k to spend. -10k for promoting. Now, you’re likely to have prepromotes on your team—that saves you money. You’re likely to be using Ninian, who doesn’t use money at all, so that saves you 29k. You’re likely to be using Magic users, who don’t have to buy Killer/Silver Weapons, so that saves you money. Hector doesn’t have a promotion cost, so that saves you 10k. Fillers shouldn’t be promoting, so that saves you money. Dart spends his 29k and then goes 21k over. From Ninian’s share alone, you have enough to promote Dart and still have everyone promote and use Killers and everything. No problems that I can see. Funds in this game is a joke. Put in a different way: you have 348k after S Ranking Funds, and you have 11 units + Dart, so that’s 160k (-prepromotes) you need to spend to promote them all. That’s still _16k_ left per unit, and then lots of people don’t even need half of that, including Ninian, who needs exactly 0k.
Your Funds Rank takes no hit from promoting Dart. It’s _easy_ to promote him and still S Rank Funds. Reread the passage above.
No. You’re not going to take away other peoples’ best Support options just so Marcus can have full Supports. _That_ is bias. We’re judging “What’s the positives and negatives of using Marcus?” If Marcus has to let others drop their best Support setups just so he can keep up with that Rebecca, that’s a disadvantage. Thus, he can be assumed to have no Supports.
One word: Erk.
Same as with Lowen-Marcus, a bit more defense on Eliwood won’t make a difference. More offense for a longer time means he can kill more things reliably. You seem to be trying to write off offense on a situational basis, which is not only nonsensical, but it’s also biased. A 20/0 Eliwood has ~70 Avoid and 14.7 Defense (A Hector/B Lowen). Meanwhile, he only has ~16.5 Str with that setup, and he’s locked to Swords. Yeah, he definitely prefers the offense.
And what’s to say that Eliwood isn’t going to tag along? Besides, it’s a few chapters, as the first Heaven Seal doesn’t appear too much later after other people are promoting (only about 3-4 chapters worth). A small price to pay for better bonuses on both units, wouldn’t you say?
lol, this is laughable. “I want my unit to be full” isn’t a valid excuse for giving Marcus full Supports. When you’re judging the value of two units, you’re weighing the pros and cons of using each. If Marcus has to ruin other peoples’ best Support setups to have full Supports, then that’s a big detriment. Rebecca, on the other hand, far from _ruining_ the best Support setups, actually _provides_ them.
I read this part over and over and over again, trying to make sense of it, but I couldn’t do it. It just makes no sense whatsoever. Rebecca isn’t getting only 1 more Experience. Rebecca is getting 30 Experience to Marcus’ 9, she’s just taking more turns to do it. There’s a _fixed_ number of enemies. The game records how much total Experience you get in a chapter, not in a turn. If you kill all the enemies (many chapters require this, and in most chapters where it isn’t required, you’re going to do this anyway) with regular units, you get a certain amount of EXP. For _every unit_ that Marcus weakens or kills, however, that amount of EXP _decreases_. If each of 8 units can get 100 EXP in a chapter by dividing the kills amongst themselves, and Marcus can get 30, you’ve just lost 70 EXP. He’s hurting your EXP Rank. For him to get the same amount of EXP in the chapter as others, as you’re suggesting, he would have to get _more kills_ than your other units, which would still be hurting the EXP Rank as you could have distributed those kills out evenly to get more EXP. Rebecca and Marcus individually aren’t trying to S Rank Experience—the team is trying to S Rank Experience, and every single time Marcus attacks, he’s impeding that, whereas Rebecca is never impeding that. “but three enemies weakenz” And? I already said that Marcus soaks up EXP to get things done faster. That’s the point. He gets you a Turn benefit in exchange for EXP—however, that EXP detriment must be made up with fillers, so the Turn benefit, for aforementioned reasons, is negated, so in essence using Marcus earlygame is nothing but a detriment.
Yes, yes. Marcus weakens Pegs, he’s melee, he has range, etc. That’s all well and good, but Marcus can’t do that without hurting EXP Rank, so my point stands. At the very worst, they’re equal here, which would still leave Rebecca as the winner the rest of the game, so *shrugs*.
Wut. No. Explain to me, please, how EXP per turn matters more than EXP per chapter. I’m dying to hear this, especially since the game bases EXP Rank on EXP per chapter, not EXP per turn.
WTH, stop saying 1 EXP per turn. That has no relevance, as you enemies don’t regenerate infinitely every turn. It’s EXP per enemy or EXP per chapter, in which case it’s much greater. Ok, you’ve got Raven. Marcus is still losing well over 2000 EXP by getting to as high a level as you proposed, so even Raven isn’t going to make up for that (using him regularly, people still have trouble Sing EXP, let alone using him with constant Marcus use). And Heath and Rath suck to _level up_. You didn’t contest that that whole paragraph, so I assume it stands.
OU MAA GAA Wut In The World 8 units without Marcus get 800 EXP from 30 enemies (which is, say, a set number of enemies in a chapter). 8 units with Marcus get 730 EXP. Did you finish the chapter faster? Sure. Did you get less EXP? Yes! Therefore, the rest of my points about fillers stand, and earlygame Marcus is indeed a detriment.
Ok, but you concede it, so that’s good.
The difference is, Rebecca has a much greater chance of critting said Heroes and “other enemies that are melee.” She also doubles more often. Her offense >>>>> Marcus’, despite class. Did you not read the passage about Rebecca’s 91% chance to crit an enemy once on a double? That’s pretty amazing.
Lol, that would be an advantage if Marcus could actually double those promoted enemies, but he can’t, so it doesn’t matter. As for unpromoteds? Everyone except Oswin outranges those, and they’re weak, so no one cares.
Marcus, on the other hand, can’t kill these dudes because he won’t even double. And he takes actual damage from them, unlike Rebecca, and evokes a counter every time, unless he wants to equip a weak ranged weapon. Rebecca >>>> Marcus here too. Which is another point, Rebecca can function as a tank for soaking up blows. Taking 0 damage from everything (including Magic) >>>>>> That’s better than Oswin. So can Marcus, you say? No, since Marcus without Supports and WTA (since that's not constant)--and it's been proven that he should be without Supports--has 40 less Avoid than Rebecca. Even with WTA it's 25, which is significant enough to not call them "equal defensively." 25 Avoid >>>> 4-5 Def and 2-3 Res, quite easily.
Even with Swordslayer, Rebecca killing it a single Phase and either not evoking a counter or evoking a counter but never getting hit >>>> Marcus taking two, possibly three phases to do it and evoking a counter every time. Also, Swordslayer? There's only one, which I don't think even exists in HHM, sorry. Even if it does exist, there are others that want it. And endgame Wyvern Riders have 10-11ish AS. Endgame Marcus from my first post has 13.8, which is not enough to double them.
No, it’s more Move + more counters on Enemy Phase (Rebecca can counter there, just not as much) + Def/Res vs. Crit, AS, and Avoid. Rebecca’s Crit, AS, and Avoid are among the best in the game, with her one-rounding everything in the game and Avoiding every attack in the game and doubling everything (except that one lone VoD Swordmaster) in the game, so Marcus’ advantages simply don’t compare.
This is not true, as the groups will intermingle. In some chapters this is true, whereas in other chapters it is not true. Having to rely on enemy distribution to get your high Avoid <<< just having the high Avoid. Not to mention that Rebecca won’t take counters from melee on Player Phase.
At the first part of your passage, I again go ARRGH since it’s not EXP per turn, but we’ll let that be for the moment. Heath and Rath taking kills means the rest of your party misses out on those kills, in turn leading to lower levels, in turn negating Marcus’ Tactics/Survival benefits. And “no risk” is a bold statement for someone with no Supports and a weakness to Bows. No risk would imply 0 or close to 0% chance of dying. Base Heath has around 20-24 Avoid—not nearly enough to come close to negating enemy Hit, even with Axereaver. Plus his AS base is weak—you complain about Dart but you don’t complain about Heath, who has approximately the SAME Speed several chapters later? Lol, bias + double standard.
I didn’t say Rebecca snipes from the back, what are you talking about? I said Rebecca outranges enemies and kills them with a crit on a double, so that’s an advantage to her class offensively. Meanwhile, Rath’s Crit and AS are nowhere near Rebecca’s level when he joins, so he can’t claim the same. I _did_ say she doesn’t take counters on Player Phase, which is true. For Enemy Phase? Easy, she has huge Avoid, filler Rath does not. And the rest of your stuff was redundant about such things as “lol you only lose 1 EXP per turn”, so it doesn’t need to be covered. Do you actually have a point? Because at this point I could just repost my previous paragraphs and be done. Conclusion. Marcus is a detriment earlygame due to hurting EXP Rank whenever he is used. He may help Tactics during this time, but the later use of fillers contradicts and opposes any benefit that may be derived thereof. During midgame, his lack of Supports are starting to show as Rebecca continues to trounce him (judges/Kratos, view Post #1 for a comparison therein, and also for a lategame one, thank you). Lategame, he fails miserably compared to her, where she has huge AS/Crit/Avoid to handle virtually any role in the game (need another Guy? You’ve got it. Need another Oswin? you’ve got it). He may have a “class victory,” but her stats and actually existent Supports >>> his class, easily. I'm sure you'll get back to Marcus having Supports, but the facts are clear--he shouldn't have any. When he does, it's arguable, but when he doesn't, as he shouldn't the majority of the time, it's not arguable, so Rebecca is the w1nn4r. And then you failed to address a few points in my last post. I can only assume that you’re going to try to lollastpost me or something, but my case stands, so, for effect, I'll end with Rebecca > Marcus. Good debate. |
| this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER | |
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| Big Boss | Sep 22 2007, 11:53 PM Post #7 |
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This court of law finds the defendant, Rebecca of the crime of being a worse unit than Marcus. Court is adjourned. |
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^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan | |
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 23 2007, 07:32 PM Post #8 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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What a crappy ending. |
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MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH
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9:55 PM Nov 28
