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Kent has A Sain all the time easily.  It's fast, easy, and neither of them wants anyone else as much as they want each other.  Like Lance x Alan and Oscar x Kieran, it's a match made in Heaven.  This gives him full Atk to make his offense moar h4x, and full Crit Evd to make up for his poor LUK.  Everything else is given in half, but at least it's there.  Then, he easily gets a B with Lyn.  Now, I know you're going to argue about her sucking or something, and I'm prepared for that should you do it.  She's forced upon you for many chapters, including the very final chapter, so not using her at all is a terrible idea.  She also has many pluses.  So, yeah, bring it.  And if I have trouble with that, I'll take the later B Fiora at the very least, so ggnore.

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Serra's supports suck terribly.  Sain could possibly happen, but it's 41/81/121 and Sain's mounted and off raping things with Kent, while Serra is hiding and getting left behind.  So, she can get a B with Sain really late in the game or something.  Lucius is possible, but he has Raven and Priscilla, and Lucius is often not even used since he's so bleh.  It's also very slow.  Hector isn't going to happen since it's super slow and he has A Eliwood/B Oswin before he probably gets just a C with Serra.  Hey, Oswin will take her on playthroughs where Dorcas isn't used, you don't feel like promoting Matthew later, and Priscilla doesn't feel like getting him.  Oh, wait, you need all of that to happen at the same time.  Pity.  Matthew has A Guy already, and having your healer follow your thief around makes no sense at all.  He'll go for Oswin often if you plan on promoting him later, and is often not an awesome partner thanks to his very late promotion or not even promoting at all.  Also, 76/156/236 ftl.  Then Erk is even slower, and Erk wants Priscilla and Pent a lot more.  Florina x Serra is probably the slowest support in the history of Fire Emblem; 81/161/241, lol.  Serra's supports are both super slow and unlikely in the first place, so I dunno wtf she's supposed to do for supports.

Inui

Sep 15 2007, 02:44 AM

Chapter 16

Kent: Level 10 Cavalier
HP: 27.6
STR: 9.6
SKL: 10.5
SPD: 11.1
LUK: 3.8
DEF: 7.2
RES: 3.2
CON: 9
AID: 16
MOV: 7
Lances, Swords

Serra can gain a couple of levels in Lyn's mode, and then a couple before Kent joins, so something like 8 is reasonable since has to heal for EXP and competes with Priscilla starting in 14. 

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Later on, after Serra had time to promote and catch up with her h4xed up EXP gains...

Inui

Sep 15 2007, 02:44 AM

Kent is amazing through Lyn's mode and Serra is also good from being your only healer.  Yayz.

Serra joins in Chapter 12, but has to sit back and do nothing because the Pegasus Knights, Archer, and Mercenary wtfraep her terribly.  So, she barely gets to heal, and can't really start building supports.  She has to hide and camp a lot due to horrible durability.  Durability is almost all WT control and HP/DEF early on since Evd is nowhere near reliable yet.  Serra is being useful as your only healer, but she's forced to hide a lot, and then Priscilla joins in 14 and starts pwning because of her horse.

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Kent has a horse, good offense, and is durable.  What else is there to say besides just explaining that stuff further?  Kent's mobile, and is only less mobile than Marcus and Florina.  Tactics is incredibly hard to get an S rank in, and Kent having a horse and solid offense and durability only makes that easier.  Serra is helping Experience, and that's about it.

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She has terrible mobility, so she's not good in Chapter 17, while Priscilla is h4x.

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In Chapter 17x, she's likely to not even be fielded since space is so damn limited and Priscilla gets fielded first to gain levels and build supports with Guy and Erk.

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Then you go to Chapter 18, and then she's having those Pegasus Knight and Mercenary and Archer problems again.  Enemies in this chapter swarm you and lots of them can fly, so it's hard to protect her, and her HP and DEF both suck terribly.  In Chapter 19, there's Nomads everywhere, and even more Pegasus Knights again.  So, her earlygame durability is abysmal.  She struggles to live and has super slow supports, so her durability barely goes up.

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lol, all this ranting about durability, and then you suggest Lyn of all people? Haha, nice.
Sadly, Fiora's isn't much better since she joins so underleveled.

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Serra is Sain's best B support: he already overkills atk, and Serra's affinity gives pretty much everything else, so that's w1n for him.

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Lucius wants Serra way more than Priscilla, and Priscilla doesn't want Lucius either. What's Lucius's problem? Durability. What's Serra's affinity? Full defense. Priscilla's? critavo, lulz
"Lucius is often not even used since he's so bleh."? He's only not getting used if you don't like units with low durability, in which case Lyn and Fiora definitely aren't getting used. Lucius has less def than them, but he's getting +5 def from his supports while the other two get +2 at best, closing the gap, and then he almost never takes counters, and he's immune to magic and doesn't have a weakness to bows or an inability to use terrain.

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No, Erk does not want Pent a lot more, or even more at all. Support with Serra > one with Pent. His Serra support is slow, but it also starts 15-16 chapters earlier. C Serra happens way way before C Pent, and the Bs are pretty close. And Serra gives better bonuses as well. Crit >> hit.

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I won't argue Matthew/Hector/Oswin.

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Hahaha. Wow.
Okay, first, I see Kent is level 10, which he isn't getting to unless you sat there and Lundgren abused or something while getting Nils to lv 7. Otherwise he'd be level 8-9.

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Next, Serra is getting way more than "a couple of levels" in Lyn mode. Without Lundgren abuse, if you're S-ing LHM, she can get to level 9 by the end of it. With Lundgren abuse, she'll reach at least level 11, possibly 12. If that seems high to you, realize that she's getting two heals on turns that Nils refreshes her, which is going to be almost every time since there's rarely ever a need to refresh an attacker: enemy density is so low in LHM that you have way more than enough units to kill all the ones in range every turn and usually even still have units left over who have nothing to attack, so refreshing an attacker would be pointless. You get nothing out of it. Whereas refreshing your healer gets you more exp. It helps Serra without negative effects on anyone else. There may be a turn or two in chapters 8 and/or 9 that refreshing an attacker would help, but that's it.

Now, since you apparently got Nils to lv 7, Serra would be lv 11-12 when she rejoins in ch 12, and lv 14-15 by the time Kent joins.

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Serra promotes well before Kent does, and then she's gaining the same exp from combat but also gains exp from staves, so her level lead increases.

Then Kent also has problems with promoting. There are hardly any Knight Crests. Oswin gets the first one, of course, and then the one of Kent/Sain/Lowen gets the second one at the end of chapter 22. Then the second Cavalier can't promote until you get the Earth Seal in ch 24. And the third Cavalier pretty much can't promote at all...Do you even get a third Knight Crest? You just have to wait for the second Earth Seal, right before 28x.
Even if he had no promotion issues, Serra would be about 20/7 by the time he promotes, but then his promotion is held back, so Serra will be like 20/9 by the time Kent promotes. Then class exp bonus + staves keeps that level lead.

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No, Serra has enough hp/def to usually take 2 hits and still be alive. Basically, her durability is like Eliwood's would be if he always had WTA.
And.. only healer until Priscilla joins = w1n. Kent has nothing like this.

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Kent only helps to better tactics. What I mean by that is that you can beat chapters just as fast without Kent. You cannot, however, get as much exp without Serra. It's an assured and rather large boost that you can't get otherwise. Serra's advantage >>> Kent's
And not only that, but also, higher exp rank lets you use more of the tactics rank god that is Marcus, so this can go towards either rank. Serra wins even more.

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No, Serra's mobility is not terrible. She just has normal move rather than above average. She has more than enough move to keep up with the group. Compared to Priscilla, she usually actually has more mobility. Sure Priscilla can move farther, but that's not worth anything unless she can safely do so, and Serra's durability trounces Priscilla's.

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On the contrary, Serra is one of the first to be fielded. First on the list are Florina, the healers, and a fast sworduser who can one-round the pirates, like Guy or Raven. Kent, however, is indeed unlikely to be fielded as he doesn't fit into any of the roles.

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Haha. Serra >> Priscilla here because she actually has hp/def and doesn't die in two hits. She's also nearly immune to the Shamans while Priscilla's res isn't that high: she usually dies in two hits even if one is from a Shaman. Even from just Shamans, 2 Nosferatus or 3 Fluxes is enough to b7 Priscilla.
In addition to hp and def, Serra also has avoid so that she can dodge and not have to waste a turn getting healed.

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Kent's durability doesn't even beat Serra's here because of all the Shamans. He can take an extra hit or sometimes two from physical attackers, but he gets wtfpwned by the Shamans, and he takes counters often, and he has less avo. Also, the Mercs can crit Kent since he hasn't gotten C Sain yet. He might get it later in the chapter, but he doesn't have that critavo until then.

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19 has lots of forests, so Serra's avo is a bigger factor. The 60-70 avo she'll have when standing on one starts to become actually reliable.

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Serra promotes soon after 19, so Kent gets crxsh'd then.

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Oh yeah, and once Serra promotes, her durability starts beating Kent's, and it stays that way for the rest of the gaem. She wins massively in avoid, having significantly more even when Kent has WTA, she wtfraeps him in res, and only loses def by about 2.

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Serra is Sain's best B support: he already overkills atk, and Serra's affinity gives pretty much everything else, so that's w1n for him.

Maybe for bonuses, sure.

But Sain's almost never standing next to her and the support is already horribly slow. Please, tell me how a healer is standing next to a unit that rushes forward enough for that support to build, especially since it's so slow.

Inui

Sep 20 2007, 11:41 PM

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lol, all this ranting about durability, and then you suggest Lyn of all people? Haha, nice.
Sadly, Fiora's isn't much better since she joins so underleveled.

Lyn's durability issues aren't that bad. She has really good Evd and Florina gives her +1 Def/Res. It's not like you're not going to field her. She's forced upon you for many chapters, and has to be used in the final.

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Lucius wants Serra way more than Priscilla, and Priscilla doesn't want Lucius either. What's Lucius's problem? Durability. What's Serra's affinity? Full defense. Priscilla's? critavo, lulz
"Lucius is often not even used since he's so bleh."? He's only not getting used if you don't like units with low durability, in which case Lyn and Fiora definitely aren't getting used. Lucius has less def than them, but he's getting +5 def from his supports while the other two get +2 at best, closing the gap, and then he almost never takes counters, and he's immune to magic and doesn't have a weakness to bows or an inability to use terrain.

Lyn: Level 15/0: 25.8 HP, 4.2 Def, 47.5 Evd
Lucius: Level 15/0: 24.6 HP, 2.2 Def, 34 Evd

At even levels, Lyn is crushing Lucius in durability. And Lyn has a level lead and a support lead. C Florina before Lucius even joins, and then that finishes quickly, and Kent started building.

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And since we're raping our Lyn's mode ranks or something, give her the Angelic Robe before Lucius even exists.  ggnore

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Fiora, bleh.  I don't like her much.

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No, Erk does not want Pent a lot more, or even more at all. Support with Serra > one with Pent. His Serra support is slow, but it also starts 15-16 chapters earlier. C Serra happens way way before C Pent, and the Bs are pretty close. And Serra gives better bonuses as well. Crit >> hit.

This leaves Pent, an otherwise very impressive unit, without any supports unless you actually field Louise and/or Canas. Hawkeye's okay, but the bonuses are really bad. So, Serra taking the support from Erk hurts Pent, which isn't good. Erk isn't struggling even slightly without having Serra since he easily gets Priscilla, so it's not like you're hurting Erk by waiting for Pent. C Serra isn't making him jump a tier.

The bonuses are barely different. It's 5 Crit and 5 Hit vs 10 Crit, which isn't all that different.

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Hahaha. Wow.
Okay, first, I see Kent is level 10, which he isn't getting to unless you sat there and Lundgren abused or something while getting Nils to lv 7. Otherwise he'd be level 8-9.

Maybe if you used Wil, Rath, and the other bleh units or something. My Sain and Kent are always at least level 10 without Lundgren abusing at all, and Experience is S'd anyways.

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Next, Serra is getting way more than "a couple of levels" in Lyn mode. Without Lundgren abuse, if you're S-ing LHM, she can get to level 9 by the end of it. With Lundgren abuse, she'll reach at least level 11, possibly 12. If that seems high to you, realize that she's getting two heals on turns that Nils refreshes her, which is going to be almost every time since there's rarely ever a need to refresh an attacker: enemy density is so low in LHM that you have way more than enough units to kill all the ones in range every turn and usually even still have units left over who have nothing to attack, so refreshing an attacker would be pointless. You get nothing out of it. Whereas refreshing your healer gets you more exp. It helps Serra without negative effects on anyone else. There may be a turn or two in chapters 8 and/or 9 that refreshing an attacker would help, but that's it.

Now, since you apparently got Nils to lv 7, Serra would be lv 11-12 when she rejoins in ch 12, and lv 14-15 by the time Kent joins.

Wtf is she healing, dude? She can't heal HP every single turn. I've never had Serra pass level 7 without Lundgren abuse.

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And if you're Lundgren abusing, Kent is also going to be higher than level 10.  Hell, since you're going all the way, why not promote him?  If you abuse, you already wrecked Tactics.  So, if you want to Lundgren abuse, we'll make Kent a Level 1 Paladin or something.  Sounds fine?

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Serra promotes well before Kent does, and then she's gaining the same exp from combat but also gains exp from staves, so her level lead increases.

Then Kent also has problems with promoting. There are hardly any Knight Crests. Oswin gets the first one, of course, and then the one of Kent/Sain/Lowen gets the second one at the end of chapter 22. Then the second Cavalier can't promote until you get the Earth Seal in ch 24. And the third Cavalier pretty much can't promote at all...Do you even get a third Knight Crest? You just have to wait for the second Earth Seal, right before 28x.
Even if he had no promotion issues, Serra would be about 20/7 by the time he promotes, but then his promotion is held back, so Serra will be like 20/9 by the time Kent promotes. Then class exp bonus + staves keeps that level lead.

Oh, no no no, we're Lundgren abusing, right? Kent is a Level 1 Paladin in Chapter 16. If we're not Lundgren abusing, then the levels I posed initially will be used. Your choice.

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Kent would at least be promoting second, so whatever.

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No, Serra has enough hp/def to usually take 2 hits and still be alive. Basically, her durability is like Eliwood's would be if he always had WTA.
And.. only healer until Priscilla joins = w1n. Kent has nothing like this.

She dies in two hits without Lundgren abuse, and dies in three with it.
Kent dies in a lot of hits without Lundgren abuse, and can't die with it.

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That's fine.  Kent is one of your best fighters, which makes up for that, since there's tons more fighting to do than healing.

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Kent only helps to better tactics. What I mean by that is that you can beat chapters just as fast without Kent. You cannot, however, get as much exp without Serra. It's an assured and rather large boost that you can't get otherwise. Serra's advantage >>> Kent's
And not only that, but also, higher exp rank lets you use more of the tactics rank god that is Marcus, so this can go towards either rank. Serra wins even more.

Kent doesn't just better Tactics. He rapes enemies, so he betters Combat. He kills things before they can do anything and can protect and rescue people, so he helps Survival. He costs a lot less than Serra and can use iron weapons almost all the time and still crush everything, so he's cheap and better for Funds.

Yeah, she's good for Experience and lets you use Marcus more, but Priscilla also does this, and later joining units like Heath and Nino help out a lot. And all of your late-promoting Lords, especially Hector. It's not exactly like Serra alone lets Marcus be used more. What a tiny advantage...

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No, Serra's mobility is not terrible. She just has normal move rather than above average. She has more than enough move to keep up with the group. Compared to Priscilla, she usually actually has more mobility. Sure Priscilla can move farther, but that's not worth anything unless she can safely do so, and Serra's durability trounces Priscilla's.

For Chapter 17, she's terrible.

You have to rush. You have to stop some gay thieves and save those soldiers. Kent, Sain, Florina, Marcus, and Priscilla ditch everyone. Serra just follows along with nothing to do, so she's no benefit here.

Priscilla is safe after Marcus, Sain, and Kent kill everything. And the big corridor is only two spaces, and there are three frontliners to block it off.

Serra's ditched.

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On the contrary, Serra is one of the first to be fielded. First on the list are Florina, the healers, and a fast sworduser who can one-round the pirates, like Guy or Raven. Kent, however, is indeed unlikely to be fielded as he doesn't fit into any of the roles.

Kent has more offense than Raven at this point, though. And if you Lundgren abused, he's like...a level 2 Paladin, and the best unit in the game.

Raven: Level 6: 9.5 Atk, 14.45 Atk Spd, 8 Con
Kent: Level 13: 11.8 Atk, 12.4 Atk Spd, 9 Con

Steel Sword narrows the Spd loss, and Kent doubles those pirates anyways. Kent has moar Atk, too. Guy is better, though.

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Why is Florina fielded?  Lances-only against all of those pirates?  And the bows around?  Those villages aren't exactly getting raided, dude.

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And Priscilla is better than Serra and needs the levels more, so she's doing the healing, not Serra.

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Haha. Serra >> Priscilla here because she actually has hp/def and doesn't die in two hits. She's also nearly immune to the Shamans while Priscilla's res isn't that high: she usually dies in two hits even if one is from a Shaman. Even from just Shamans, 2 Nosferatus or 3 Fluxes is enough to b7 Priscilla.
In addition to hp and def, Serra also has avoid so that she can dodge and not have to waste a turn getting healed.

But Priscilla has that brief conversation before the chapter starts, which makes her w1n.

In all seriousness, Priscilla isn't too worse off because she can run away and move more. Serra can get attacked without being able to run away.

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Anyways, Priscilla vs Serra isn't all that important.  Priscilla is the better unit overall and yields a better pay-off when used.  If you want to argue against this, you can; good luck.

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Kent is awesome in this chapter because he can go anywhere he wants, rape the Pegs, tank the Mercs, and easily kill anything on the map.  He can also move from one side of the ship to the other easily.

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What this "hp/def" that Serra has?  She has pretty bad HP/Def for the whole game.  Beating Priscilla in them doesn't suddenly make her have HP/Def.

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Kent's durability doesn't even beat Serra's here because of all the Shamans. He can take an extra hit or sometimes two from physical attackers, but he gets wtfpwned by the Shamans, and he takes counters often, and he has less avo. Also, the Mercs can crit Kent since he hasn't gotten C Sain yet. He might get it later in the chapter, but he doesn't have that critavo until then.

All of this means nothing unless you make Kent go to the far left, which is pretty stupid. He can rape the other areas, especially the far right. Serra is raped in those areas since Mercs and Myrms have Hit.

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Uh, C Sain is only 17 turns.  He gets that in Chapter 17, or in 17x at the latest.  He's going to have it for 18 all the time.  And C Lyn is likely, too.  That's only 21 turns.

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19 has lots of forests, so Serra's avo is a bigger factor. The 60-70 avo she'll have when standing on one starts to become actually reliable.

Her Evd isn't that high unless you Lundgren abused. And if you did that, Kent is getting cling'd and shit, lol.

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Serra promotes soon after 19, so Kent gets crxsh'd then.

Only if you Lundgren abused, which means Kent is promoted in 16.

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Oh yeah, and once Serra promotes, her durability starts beating Kent's, and it stays that way for the rest of the gaem. She wins massively in avoid, having significantly more even when Kent has WTA, she wtfraeps him in res, and only loses def by about 2.

Beats Kent in durability?

Prove it. Kent has tons more HP and DEF and great Evd too. I can't possibly see Serra winning in any situation you mentioned beyond the stuff with the Shamans, and then Kent has way more HP for those anyways. She's more durable in Cog of Destiny, and that's about it.

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Whoa, whoa. What is this? If Sain is "almost never" standing next to Serra, how the hell is Lyn next to Kent?

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And wtf @ this support being "horribly slow". Your facts are horribly wrong. Sain-Serra B is almost the same number of turns as Kent-Sain A. It's the same number of turns as something like Guy-Priscilla.

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Anyway, no, Sain doesn't rush forward. He doesn't have massive durability. He has offense, and he attacks enemies rather than running past them.

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And by the way, the move gap even becomes 1 for several chapters once Serra promotes.

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Wtf? Yes, it is like I'm not going to field her.
She's forced for a few chapters. Okay, yaye? What's the problem? Just keep her in the back, and she won't get attacked. And half of them are defend chapters.
Her avoid is not good. Her affinity is wind, and Kent is the only support she's getting that gives even half avoid. That's an auto-phail in avoid. The only time her avoid is good is against axes.

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Too bad C Florina gives her no durability. Lucius is getting defensive bonuses faster than Lyn is.

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Lyn crushing in durability? She has a 2 def lead which is actually 0-1 when you factor in supports, and that's it.

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The avoid is laughably unreliable, so it's nearly worthless. It helps against Steel Axes, and that's it. And on the flipside, her defense drops by 1 vs lances.

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Now on to Lucius's advantages that you conveniently neglected to include: A 10 res lead giving him a massive win vs magic, and not taking counterattacks, which gives him a clear win in durabiliy. Lyn can only take 1-2 hits without dying in the first place, and then one of those goes away from the counterattack. That's pretty phail.
Lucius beats Lyn in durability.

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I don't think you thought your cunning plan all the way through. First of all, Lucius can use that item as well. You get it near the end of chapter 6, and Lucius joins at the very start of ch 7.
Additonally, using that means not S-ing funds and therefore not getting a White Gem in ch 16, so lol @ at that.

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What kind of question is that? She's healing player units, obviously.

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Now you're making the game take an extra year and a half, which is massive phail already.
And you lose the S in funds, so you don't get a White Gem in ch 16.
And Sain could do this as well, so even if you do this, Kent is only promoting half the time.

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And then, when Kent rejoins, he's eating the exp rank. 20/1 in ch 16 or 20/1 in ch 17x
Serra you could have on a bit higher level so that she reaches 20 and promotes not much later, in ch 18, and actually still is good for the exp rank and takes way way less extra time (takes about 2-3 times as long to get Serra there as opposed to about 10 times as long to get Kent there) abusing and doesn't kill my White Gem. They're both raep and one-round everything and have good durability, but Serra also has staves. And Serra can actually gain a decent amount of exp, so she gets a level lead.

So, while it really doesn't matter due to this way suxxing massively, Serra wins this way, too.

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You have two options: Get 19xx or don't. The spend a year abusing after already getting Nils to 7 isn't an option. Well, it could be, but it's already phail. Spending a year boss abusing is as bad as having to spend a year strategizing because of your units phailing at life. It's worse, actually, because it's b0ring as well.

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What? No he wouldn't. Unless you mean second among the cavaliers on average, but even that doesn't reflect the situation. 23, 24-25, and 28x. The average of those is 25-26. Ohsnap; I was generous to Kent.

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Well, without Lundgren abuse,
Kent'll be about lv 11 by Pirate Ship. 7.5 def, 3.5 res, 28.5 hp, 27.0 avo. Archers and Iron Lance Pegs (~15 atk) kill him in 4 hits. Mercs and Steel Lance Pegs (~17-18 atk) kill him in 3 hits. Shamans (~14-17 atk) kill him in 3.
Serra will be about lv 15. 4.1 def, 12.7 res, 24.0 hp, 41.6 avo. Archers and Iron Pegs kill in 3. Mercs and Steel Pegs kill in 2. Shamans kill in ~9.
Like I said, Kent's durability doesn't even beat hers here. With all those Shamans, and then add in the fact that he often has to take counters, and it's obvious that he doesn't win durability. In other chapters, there aren't as many magic users, so Serra doesn't get that advantage, but there are also more forests, so her advantage in avoid matters a bit more.

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With Lundgren abuse, or getting 19xx,
Kent = 13 . . 8.0 def, 4.0 res, 30.2 hp, 29.2 avo. 5 from Archers/IronPegs; 3-4 from Mercs/SteelPegs; 3 from Shamans
Serra = 17 . . 4.4 def, 13.8 res, 25.0 hp, 44.4 avo. 3 from Archers/IronPegs; 2 from Mercs/SteelPegs; ~15 from Shamans

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lol no, only healer >>>>>>>>>>>> anything Kent has
One of your best fighters? Yeah, one of about 10 of your best fighters. Hector, Sain, Lowen, Erk, Matthew, Dorcas, and Oswin are about on his level, and Guy and Marcus are clearly better. Being one of only two healers aleady beats this without even touching either of her advantages of being the only healer for a few chapters or being raep for the exp rank.
Sry, Serra is tons more useful than Kent.

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And then there's the fact that Serra is helping out without cutting into anyone else's exp, like Kent is against every other combat unit since there's a limited number of enemies to gain exp from.

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No, Kent can only help to maybe better any of the ranks because he's never the best at anything, and there's nothing that's Kent-specific.
Ttactics, yes, he can help with this rank. And healing units so they can actually move forward without getting raepd also helps tactics. No advantage for Kent here.
Combat? Wtf? Enough with the BS. You know perfectly well that combat rank in this game is a joke; you've even said it before yourself. You can 2-round half the enemies and 3-round the other half and never 1-round anything and still S combat. lol @ only needing 40% wins to S.
Survival? Healing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rescuing for keeping units alive. And no, Kent can't regularly one-round things, killing them "before they can do anything", until after Serra promotes and can do the same. Serra easily wins this rank.
Funds? If Kent uses Killer 30% of the time and Iron 70%...
Killer Ln 30%, Iron Ln 70% = avg 23.6 per use
Shine 30%, Lightning 70% = avg 21.6 per use
o snap; he's moar expensive. Let's try...
Killer Ln 26%, Iron Ln 74% = avg 21.52 per use
Exp? Serra obviously >>>>>>>>>>>> Kent

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No, you don't have to rush.

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Lundgren-abused Kent is 12-13, so KENT'S stats are right except Kent has 1 less atk than that. He doesn't have C Sain yet. 17 turns is fast, yes, but 2 chapters isn't going to do it; chs 16 and 17 are not long chapters. Getting it that fast either means being adjancent pretty much every turn, which is extremely impractical and would make Kent or Sain's usefulness suck, or it means tactics rank raep. And you need 13 AS to double all the pirates, not 12.
non-Lundgren-abused Kent is 11 and phails.
Raven's stats, however, are quite wrong. lv 6 Raven has 10.6 str and 15.0 spd.

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for getting the houses that you can't reach otherwise

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Wtf? No, he can't. Dying in 3 hits is ridiculously far from invincible. Was that a joke?

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see above durability comparison done for this chapter

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No, he might have it several turns into ch 18, but that's the earliest. Or were you support abusing or something? oki, lulz; tactics raep

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Serra = lv 17 starting 19x if you're not getting 19xx. lv 19 if you are

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Kent, 17/0, B Sain:
38.6 avo, 33.6 hp, 10.0 def, 6.0 res, 15.2 critavo
Serra, 20/1, C Lucius, C Sain:
53.6 avo, 29.5 hp, 7.8 def, 18.4 res, 24.4 critavo

12 res, 15 avo, 9 critavo >> 2 def, 4 hp


20/1 Kent, A Sain:
45.8 avo, 38.1 hp, 12.7 def, 7.8 res, 20.8 critavo
20/9 Serra, C Erk, B Lucius, B Sain:
76.8 avo, 33.5 hp, 12.0 def, 25.8 res, 42.2 critavo

20/1 Kent, A Sain, B Fiora:
50.8 avo, 38.1 hp, 13.7 def, 8.8 res, 30.8 critavo


too much raep for words

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SArsalaanS (6:33:57 PM): Then healing is not necessary, combat is. Earlygame, vulneraries, no necessity I see. lategame, Supports + h4x durability (FE9 is a great example; half your units are impervious). Combat can never be called unnecessary. And the differences between combat units are more pronounced than the differences between healers. For example, doing 4 less damage per blow is 8 less per double, whereas a healer who heals for less isn't going to make a huge impact on your team. 4 less HP per heal? No matter, you don't need the 4 HP.

Inui

Sep 28 2007, 10:09 PM

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Whoa, whoa. What is this? If Sain is "almost never" standing next to Serra, how the hell is Lyn next to Kent?

Lyn is fighting and not camping like Serra. Lyn x Kent is way faster than Serra x Sain. Lyn x Kent is thus far more plausible.

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And wtf @ this support being "horribly slow". Your facts are horribly wrong. Sain-Serra B is almost the same number of turns as Kent-Sain A. It's the same number of turns as something like Guy-Priscilla.

Kent x Sain A: 71
Serra x Sain B: 81

Sain's job: Frontline and kill things.
Kent's job: Frontline and kill things.
Serra's job: Stay back and heal.

Kent's Move: 7
Sain's Move: 7
Serra's Move: 5

Yeah, looks like the support is really slow. They aren't near each other very often, and it takes a lot of turns anyways. And this comparing an A to a B, lol.

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Anyway, no, Sain doesn't rush forward. He doesn't have massive durability. He has offense, and he attacks enemies rather than running past them.

He has good durability. It's not massive, but he's going to be ahead of the likes of Serra almost all the time at the very least. It's not like he's blindly rushing, but he's indeed pushing forward to finish things faster. Tactics ftw.

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Wtf? Yes, it is like I'm not going to field her.
She's forced for a few chapters. Okay, yaye? What's the problem? Just keep her in the back, and she won't get attacked. And half of them are defend chapters.
Her avoid is not good. Her affinity is wind, and Kent is the only support she's getting that gives even half avoid. That's an auto-phail in avoid. The only time her avoid is good is against axes.

It's better to just use her. She has to be there in the final, and she can't just stay back due to long-range things and status staves. You'll either have her die and then fail the game, or have to cripple someone by carrying her around.

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And:

Lyn: 20/5 w/ B Kent: 66.1 Evd
Lucius: 20/5 w/ A Raven/B Serra: 55 Evd
Erk: 20/7 w/ A Priscilla/C Serra: 66.5 Evd

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Uh, yeah, nothing wrong with her Evd.  If you promote Eliwood first, then yeah, she'll promote late, but she gets bows so she doesn't have to take counters as often anymore.  She's actually good in Cog of Destiny from having good Evd by then and decent Res, and being able to double the Valkyries and one-round them.

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If Lucius is viable at all for Serra, Lyn is easily viable for Kent.

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Too bad C Florina gives her no durability. Lucius is getting defensive bonuses faster than Lyn is.

And Lyn is still winning.

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Lyn crushing in durability? She has a 2 def lead which is actually 0-1 when you factor in supports, and that's it.

I did factour in supports.

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Lyn will get B Florina while Lucius gets C Raven, which changes nothing in the Def gap.

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The avoid is laughably unreliable, so it's nearly worthless. It helps against Steel Axes, and that's it. And on the flipside, her defense drops by 1 vs lances.

It's probably one of the highest Evd scores at this point in the game since supports aren't high enough to matter a lot.

Guy: 15/0 w/ B Matthew/C Priscilla: 57.4

That's the absolute highest around this point in the game. Most units are far behind this. Lyn's Evd isn't hugely reliable, but she's got more than almost everyone on the team.

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Yeah, lances can school her, but the Mani Katti one-rounds them.

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Now on to Lucius's advantages that you conveniently neglected to include: A 10 res lead giving him a massive win vs magic, and not taking counterattacks, which gives him a clear win in durabiliy. Lyn can only take 1-2 hits without dying in the first place, and then one of those goes away from the counterattack. That's pretty phail.
Lucius beats Lyn in durability.

Yay, magic users, which are really uncommon. He wins Cog of Destiny.

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Lyn can do things on the enemy phase.  Lucius can't.  Lucius wins durability against a single enemy on the player phase, and that's it.  Unless there's a magic user swarm, but Lyn has Evd at least.

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Your precious Serra can heal her.  Or Priscilla.  Not a big deal.

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I still don't understand how Lyn so easily dies.  I've played this game so many times, used Lyn every time, and I've never found her to be too frail.  Enemies in this game don't have the Hit of FE 9 enemies or the Atk of FE 6 enemies.  They're pretty...bleh.

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Well, whatever.  You've successfully proved that Lyn is mid tier or something, not that Serra is better than Kent.

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I don't think you thought your cunning plan all the way through. First of all, Lucius can use that item as well. You get it near the end of chapter 6, and Lucius joins at the very start of ch 7.
Additonally, using that means not S-ing funds and therefore not getting a White Gem in ch 16, so lol @ at that.

Giving Lyn 7 HP can be worth losing out on some cash in the next mode. It's not like Funds is hard to S. It's really easy. If you're using Lyn or Lucius, they both really want it.

But, yeah, it's a bit of a problem.

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What kind of question is that? She's healing player units, obviously.

Yes, but what missing HP?

She needs to heal 9 times to get a single level up. That's 9 turns. Kent is already way past level 1 before Serra even exists, and Serra doesn't start higher than level 1. Kent can gain more EXP in a single enemy phase than Serra can gain with two heals from a Nils refresh.

And then there's the problem of your units often not taking damage. Things have bad Hit and are often just slaughtered, and weak things even *cling* Sain and Kent.

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Now you're making the game take an extra year and a half, which is massive phail already.
And you lose the S in funds, so you don't get a White Gem in ch 16.
And Sain could do this as well, so even if you do this, Kent is only promoting half the time.

That's not really a detriment in terms of ranks. If you abuse at all, you already failed your Tactics rank. Taking extra time is worth it since the payoff is massive: a better version of Marcus that stays good forever.

And you don't have to promote Kent in HHM, so that's balanced out. You didn't think your cunning plan through this time, good sir!

Okay, so Kent is way better than Serra 50% of the time you Lundgren abuse if Sain and Kent are considered equal in line for the promotion. Now you can break even at beast in this debate on this issue. Or maybe not, since Kent's partner will then become way better than Serra and Kent gets to always be with him. Usually Kent should be promoted, anyways. He's the better unit. Like how Lance gets promoted first in FE 6 usually, from what I've read.

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And then, when Kent rejoins, he's eating the exp rank. 20/1 in ch 16 or 20/1 in ch 17x
Serra you could have on a bit higher level so that she reaches 20 and promotes not much later, in ch 18, and actually still is good for the exp rank and takes way way less extra time (takes about 2-3 times as long to get Serra there as opposed to about 10 times as long to get Kent there) abusing and doesn't kill my White Gem. They're both raep and one-round everything and have good durability, but Serra also has staves. And Serra can actually gain a decent amount of exp, so she gets a level lead.

So, while it really doesn't matter due to this way suxxing massively, Serra wins this way, too.

Yes, Serra will successfully win Experience.

And then Kent is invincible and doing amazing in every other rank. Kills everything in one round, is really cheap, and has tons of mobility.

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Why does this way suck massively?  Because you have to spend an extra half hour hitting Lundgren with Kent?  The payoff is that you get a God in the next mode.  Worth it.  Very worth it.

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You have two options: Get 19xx or don't. The spend a year abusing after already getting Nils to 7 isn't an option. Well, it could be, but it's already phail. Spending a year boss abusing is as bad as having to spend a year strategizing because of your units phailing at life. It's worse, actually, because it's b0ring as well.

It's an option. And it doesn't take a year to only abuse Kent to promotion. Maybe if you abused everyone else, but I'm saying to just abuse Kent since that yields the highest payoff by far. It takes about half an hour to get one unit to promotion point, sometimes less.

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Well, without Lundgren abuse,
Kent'll be about lv 11 by Pirate Ship. 7.5 def, 3.5 res, 28.5 hp, 27.0 avo. Archers and Iron Lance Pegs (~15 atk) kill him in 4 hits. Mercs and Steel Lance Pegs (~17-18 atk) kill him in 3 hits. Shamans (~14-17 atk) kill him in 3.
Serra will be about lv 15. 4.1 def, 12.7 res, 24.0 hp, 41.6 avo. Archers and Iron Pegs kill in 3. Mercs and Steel Pegs kill in 2. Shamans kill in ~9.
Like I said, Kent's durability doesn't even beat hers here. With all those Shamans, and then add in the fact that he often has to take counters, and it's obvious that he doesn't win durability. In other chapters, there aren't as many magic users, so Serra doesn't get that advantage, but there are also more forests, so her advantage in avoid matters a bit more.

I don't have a clue how Serra has a big level lead like this. Without Lundgren abuse, she's really low level from Lyn's mode. She needs 9 heals per level, and some chapters are only half that length in turns. She's gaining very little from Lyn's mode, while Kent is gaining a lot more.

Serra can heal once and get 11 EXP. Kent can bait a single enemy, gain like 5, and then kill it and gain 10. That's with ONE enemy. Kent is actually gaining EXP far more easily, so Serra can't secure a level lead until she can fight.

Wow @ this massive Serra powerleveling. Reduce Serra's level by about 4 or 5 and increase Kent's by about 2 or 3 and you have what actually happens. Or what actually happens when I play this game, at least, and I've played it somewhere around 300 times.

Serra joins in Chapter 5 of Lyn's mode. She can do stuff in 5, 6, 7, 7x, 8, 9, and 10. If you plan on S'ing Tactics, she's getting very little time to heal due to chapters finishing in like five-seven turns. Except for 10, and 9 can take some time. Those are really the only chapters where she can do a solid amount of healing. I don't see how she's going to beat Kent in levels when Kent has a big level lead in Lyn's mode.

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Serra joins HHM in Chapter 12, and can heal a tiny bit there, and then 13, 13x, 14, 15.  A level per chapter would put her around the same as Kent, if I'm thinking right, and then Kent can gain EXP better from here on.  But she can't even gain a level per chapter.  She's lucky to heal five times in Chapter 12.  Chapter 13 is only going to be about ten turns, 13x is only 7 turns every time, 14 limits her because she has to go recruit Erk and the enemies are too abundant, and 15 has a turn limit under what it takes to gain a whole level.

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Kent baits something.  Gains 5 EXP.
Serra heals on her turn.  Gains 11 EXP.
Kent kills something and gains 10 EXP.

Moar for Kent.  And this is probably a lot less than what Kent actually would get from fighting.

Serra can only catch-up in level when she can finally fight, and that will also take time since Kent is seeing more combat.

So, yeah, screw you and your massive Serra powerleveling for no reason.

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lol no, only healer >>>>>>>>>>>> anything Kent has
One of your best fighters? Yeah, one of about 10 of your best fighters. Hector, Sain, Lowen, Erk, Matthew, Dorcas, and Oswin are about on his level, and Guy and Marcus are clearly better. Being one of only two healers aleady beats this without even touching either of her advantages of being the only healer for a few chapters or being raep for the exp rank.
Sry, Serra is tons more useful than Kent.

Best fighter for almost the entire game if you Lundgren abuse and promote him, which is perfectly viable. Either you rush in Lyn's mode to S Tactics and Serra is like level 5 at the end, or you abuse for 19xx and just promote Kent when you're done. Kent is at a higher level either way.

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And then there's the fact that Serra is helping out without cutting into anyone else's exp, like Kent is against every other combat unit since there's a limited number of enemies to gain exp from.

That's like...one of the worst arguements ever that people use just to fluff their arguements up. That means every single combat unit is doing a bad thing while killing enemies. If Kent wasn't making use of the EXP, then maybe it'd be valid, but the payoff of giving Kent EXP is high, so it's not a flaw at all.

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She can be cutting into Priscilla's EXP.

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Of course, healers don't take EXP from other units nearly as much, but it's certainly not a flaw worth harping on about in a debaet.  This would make healers better than every other unit if this mattered at all.  You have to level everyone up to beat the game, and you need your units to not be massively overleveled to S Experience.  If you decreased your team size, you increase the difficulty of Experience and sometimes Tactics.

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No, Kent can only help to maybe better any of the ranks because he's never the best at anything, and there's nothing that's Kent-specific.
Ttactics, yes, he can help with this rank. And healing units so they can actually move forward without getting raepd also helps tactics. No advantage for Kent here.
Combat? Wtf? Enough with the BS. You know perfectly well that combat rank in this game is a joke; you've even said it before yourself. You can 2-round half the enemies and 3-round the other half and never 1-round anything and still S combat. lol @ only needing 40% wins to S.
Survival? Healing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rescuing for keeping units alive. And no, Kent can't regularly one-round things, killing them "before they can do anything", until after Serra promotes and can do the same. Serra easily wins this rank.
Funds? If Kent uses Killer 30% of the time and Iron 70%...
Killer Ln 30%, Iron Ln 70% = avg 23.6 per use
Shine 30%, Lightning 70% = avg 21.6 per use
o snap; he's moar expensive. Let's try...
Killer Ln 26%, Iron Ln 74% = avg 21.52 per use
Exp? Serra obviously >>>>>>>>>>>> Kent

And that's a problem? He's still bettering all of the ranks a lot besides EXP.

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Tactics is the hardest.  Kent killing things and moving forward helps more than Serra healing people.

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With Lundgren abuse, yes.  And after promotion normally, yes, except for Heroes.

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Kent doesn't need Killer that much.  If he promotes in Lyn's mode, Iron works almost all the time.  Without it, he's still using Iron for more time than that, anyways.  Killer is used maybe 20% of the time normally, and like 5% with Lundgren abuse.

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No, you don't have to rush.

The Tactics rank is too gay to not rush. I suppose in this case, yes, it's better to let the thief still the first item, but you still have to kill him before he runs away. Kent can do this, and you still need to move quickly. It's only giving you one more turn to work with if you let him steal the silver sword.

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Lundgren-abused Kent is 12-13, so KENT'S stats are right except Kent has 1 less atk than that. He doesn't have C Sain yet. 17 turns is fast, yes, but 2 chapters isn't going to do it; chs 16 and 17 are not long chapters. Getting it that fast either means being adjancent pretty much every turn, which is extremely impractical and would make Kent or Sain's usefulness suck, or it means tactics rank raep. And you need 13 AS to double all the pirates, not 12.
non-Lundgren-abused Kent is 11 and phails.
Raven's stats, however, are quite wrong. lv 6 Raven has 10.6 str and 15.0 spd.

No. Abused Kent is promoted. I'm going to stick by that. It's not even a comparison when Kent is promoted, so I won't bother at all.

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for getting the houses that you can't reach otherwise

Which ones are those? I can't recall any.

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Wtf? No, he can't. Dying in 3 hits is ridiculously far from invincible. Was that a joke?

3 hits from Shamans and Steel Lances, yeah. I'm not saying to fight those things. Move Sain and Kent to the right where there are sword users, and they will not die.

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see above durability comparison done for this chapter

I did, and had to reread it and went "wtf" at it.

And, you know what? Who cares if Serra has decent durability as a healer? She's 100% worthless on the enemy phase. She's even worse than a unit that has less durability. She can't hit back. Even if Kent was somehow losing durability, he's still better than her on every single enemy phase before she promotes. That's half of the game during the time Serra isn't promoted. Every time she's attacked, she does nothing, and hurts Combat. Kent can counter.

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No, he might have it several turns into ch 18, but that's the earliest. Or were you support abusing or something? oki, lulz; tactics raep

17 turns. That's really short. Say you get at least five turns while moving through the forests in 16, and then like 8 in 17. It's basically done by the time you fight things in 17x. No abuse needed.

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Serra = lv 17 starting 19x if you're not getting 19xx. lv 19 if you are

Unbelievable.

Prove it. Prove how Serra is this high without abuse. Level 17 by the time you're in 19x? That's...

I've already shown why she doesn't gain a lot. How is she going to gain that much EXP from only healing?

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Kent, 17/0, B Sain:
38.6 avo, 33.6 hp, 10.0 def, 6.0 res, 15.2 critavo
Serra, 20/1, C Lucius, C Sain:
53.6 avo, 29.5 hp, 7.8 def, 18.4 res, 24.4 critavo

12 res, 15 avo, 9 critavo >> 2 def, 4 hp


20/1 Kent, A Sain:
45.8 avo, 38.1 hp, 12.7 def, 7.8 res, 20.8 critavo
20/9 Serra, C Erk, B Lucius, B Sain:
76.8 avo, 33.5 hp, 12.0 def, 25.8 res, 42.2 critavo

20/1 Kent, A Sain, B Fiora:
50.8 avo, 38.1 hp, 13.7 def, 8.8 res, 30.8 critavo


too much raep for words

Again, I don't find that level lead to be realistic or believable. 8 level lead? Insane. Promoting first? Insane. Either Kent promotes way before in Lyn's mode, or promotes around the same time with the second Knight Crest. Erk competes with Priscilla for that first Guiding Ring, afterall.

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Also, Lyn being deemed unfieldable; absurd.  Her stats aren't that low, and she's fielded by default sometimes, including the Final.  Maybe if she was as bad as Wil or something, but she's not.  She's a perfectly viable unit being in mid tier.  Not any less viable than Lucius.

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And:

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SArsalaanS (6:33:57 PM): Then healing is not necessary, combat is. Earlygame, vulneraries, no necessity I see. lategame, Supports + h4x durability (FE9 is a great example; half your units are impervious). Combat can never be called unnecessary. And the differences between combat units are more pronounced than the differences between healers. For example, doing 4 less damage per blow is 8 less per double, whereas a healer who heals for less isn't going to make a huge impact on your team. 4 less HP per heal? No matter, you don't need the 4 HP.

I know it may seem unoriginal of me to just quote Solid, but I didn't feel like just rewording what he said. I can expand upon it, however. Basically, combat is always needed at every point in the game, and you can't advance without it. You can't finish any chapters without killing things, and you can't S Combat without killing things easily. Healers can never be used and you can S rank anyways. The same can't be said for combat units. Kent is a h4x combat unit.

Now, I shall make another copy, and take something Sentenal said in a debate and just change the names and make some edits, lol. "In fact, I can't even see why you would ever even imply that Healing>>>>Combat. Seriously. Serra could run around, healing every single unit every turn, non-stop, and that healing wouldn't make a difference. Healing doesn't kill enemy units. Healing doesn't kill bosses who guard castles, that you need to capture to proceed.

However, killing people lets you proceed with the game. Killing those bosses on the castles and thrones lets you proceed with the game. Killing enemies to clear chapters lets you proceed with the game. Isn't it blatantly obvious how much more valuable killing things is? Is it more common? Yeah, thank god, but that doesn't make it any less useful."

Killing enemies completes the game. Healing doesn't. Healing just helps in doing it. Healing is like the left arm of your body of progress; it's useful, but not as good as combat, which is basically everything else.

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Kent destroys Serra when it comes to fighting, so he wins.

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Anyways... 

If you Lundgren abuse and promote Kent, he's wtfraping everyone and the best unit in the game besides Matthew and maybe Ninian.  This isn't even arguable.  He's going to have the best stats forever.  Well, maybe someone will get better in the endgame, but that's about it.
If you abuse and promote Sain instead, Kent gets to tag along with God all the time.

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If you don't Lundgren abuse and aim for S'ing Tactics in Lyn's mode, Serra gains very few levels, and Kent maintains a level lead until late in the game, so he's winning.  I showed how.  Well, there are higher level staves, and then Kent can just bait two or three enemies instead and gain more EXP.