| Welcome to Fire Emblem Fusion. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Paperblade vs Mekkah | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Sep 18 2007, 10:09 PM (605 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Sep 18 2007, 10:09 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
|
|
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
| |
 |
|
| Paperblade | Sep 22 2007, 12:28 AM Post #2 |
|
Mmkay. Fin vs. Beowolf. How boring. Ok, well, Fin's there for 4 chapters. Prologue to Chapter 3. Beowolf is there from halfway through Chapter 2 to 6, which is 3 and a half chapters. But since the Prologue is stupid short, they're probably in the party for about an equal amount of time, only Fin is a bit more prominent because he's there when the party is smaller. Anyway. Fin joins and then proceeds to wade through 2 chapters of Axe fighters, so his defense there is kinda bleah. Enemies will have pretty good hit against him (about 85), but he's gonna pwn them back with his doubling and Iron Lance (which, at this point, gives him very good offense, since the Iron Lance is only losing to Cuan and Sigurd's weapons in Might, but Cuan doesn't double and Sigurd is haxbroken). So even if he's getting hit hard, he's hitting hard back, which is more than we can say for Beowolf. Let's skip ahead to Chapter 2, shall we? By the time Beowolf joins, Fin should be about Level 13 with the Hero Lance and +1 Str/Skl/Def from his talk with Cuan back in Chapter 1. So 28.6 attack. Pursuit. 100% Continue. If you aren't a a boss or a Sword Armor, you're getting one rounded. And even then, Fin does much better against them because of superior defense against bosses and WTA over Sword Armors. Compare this to Beowolf. He's not one rounding anything, except for the Troubadours with Zain or the Fire Mages at Mackily. Both of these are extremely rare, and the Troubadours are likely to die last because Zain is a far bigger threat, at is his army. The Fire Mages hit hard. Like. Almost half of Beo's HP hard. They hit Fin that hard too, only Fin is killing them before they can even attack. Chapter 3 is more of the same, with more Fin one rounding everything that isn't a Sword Armor. Also, in this chapter, there's a nice Village that gives +3 Strength. Fin is by far the best candidate for it. Why? Because everyone else is only going to only be in the party for 2 more chapters, and then leave. Sure, base stats are effected by parents. But we're talking 0.6 Strength at most, when a good deal of the kids really don't need it. Fin, on the other hand, uses it for half a chapter here, and then comes back later for a full 5 more chapters. While you can say that this doesn't effect the First Gen and is thus unimportant, that's like saying Pairings don't matter because the "approved pairings" don't effect the First Gen (which would mean you'd be more likely to pair a unit with someone within their own move range to get the +10 Hit/Avoid for the First Gen... for example, Ayra with Holyn instead of Lex, because Ayra and Holyn are more likely to be near each other for the Avoid boost). The same goes for the +1 Defense village, but it's not as important to Fin. So, Level 18 Fin with +4 Strength, +1 Skill, and +2 Defense to his averages. At Level 18, he has... 43.9HP 18.1 Strength 15.8 Skill 15.1 Speed 16.5 Luck 14.1 Defense 0.8 Resistance Hero Lance Pursuit, Prayer, Continue from weapon 33.1 Attack 111.6 Hit 22.7 Avoid 3.1 AS Compared to a Level 19 Beowolf, which, while completely unrealistic, is here to show just how badly Fin is beating Beowolf. 46HP 18 Strength 15 Skill 14 Speed 5 Luck 13 Defense 0.5 Resistance Steel Sword Pursuit, Duel 28 Attack 110 Hit 27 Avoid 11 AS So, Beowolf has a slight Avoid advantage, but the lack of Axe users prior to Orgahill weakens him badly, although he does have a notable advantage there. But! The strongest and second most common Orgahill axer brings Fin to 2HP in 3 hits. At 2HP, he gets +90 Avoid, which is enough to cancel out the Axes+WTD, and his Avoid pwns the pitiful Skill of enemies. The second most common enemies do 8 damage to him, bringing him to 4HP in 5 hits, giving him +70 Avoid from Prayer. Dropping hit rates to single digits. After having already been hit by (and consequently slaughtering) 4 enemies, meaning he was never missed. He only gets better against enemies who don't have WTA and high attack. After Fin leaves, Beo ain't doing so hot either. Chapter 4 is heavy on magic users and speedy Pegasi, with a fun squad of Swordfighters with Hero Swords. Beo will be doubling them, of course, but the Wind Mages and their Elwinds hit him hard, and he won't even kill the Pegasi, which isn't fun since they have Slim Lances for nice Hit. There are a few axe users though, but they're both at times when Beo's poor offense isn't enough, as we don't have time to dick around: Saving villages and saving the civilians. In Chapter 5, Beo is doing much better in the first half because Langobolt has a hard on for axe users, but Beo is still struggling to one round because SURPRISE, a good number of them are Axe Armors or Generals. Sorry Beo, looks like you're gonna need to either use the only Iron Cutter or still half crappy offense, although you do have a good chance of Dueling. The second half... Desert, magic users, and lance using Wyverns, plus a Thorhammer toting boss. No fun for Beowolf. He's better off being left alone after he tells Lachesis to go after Fin instead (confession that Fin is a superior father). So. Beo's attack sucks. Beo's defense sucks because of lack of WTA. Fin's offense is uber. Fin has broken stats for First Gen. Even if you pair Beowolf and Lachesis, Lachesis ends up with Fin, as Fin is so manly that he wills hot princesses into loving him effortlessly. Fin > Beowolf |
|
|
|
| Mekkah | Sep 24 2007, 03:58 AM Post #3 |
|
Not boring at all. Finally some JUSTICE in this world.
Only Fin is also a horrible drag in these chapters because he can't frontline worth shit there with constant WTD and not being able to double the bow users. When Beowulf joins the whole team is beating up Fin in the locker room for being a pain to baby. The only thing that keeps him from being picked on all the time is because Cuan sticks up for him slips him that Hero Lance, but that's pretty far in. Cuan also does double - 20% of the time, in fact, he is one-rounding enemies. Fin is never one-rounding them here. Azel is also doing more damage than Fin earlygame.
Yes, after endless times of babying and not helping, since he needs some protection and enemies set up for him to kill. But ok.
L13 Fin has a grand total of 1 AS. Beowulf comes with 8 AS. Difference in avoid when Fin has it and Beowulf does not: 6. I'm wetting my pants. Fin's not one-rounding the Augusty cavaliers either btw. However, Beowulf's not-one-roundingness is nothing compared to Fin's suckitude in the first few chapters. If Fin's allowed to get 1200 EXP in two chapters where most enemies hit him quite hard and quite easily, I'd say it's quite acceptable if Beowulf gets to hop along.
No, Fin can have the damn villages for half a chapter this gen (which is what we're debating about). However, he should hand in his Hero Lance when he's near a pawn shop anyway. Why? Because I'd like to have it during Chapter 4 and 5 and I'd like to pass it on to Fee for Chapter 6 as well rather than wait until Fin is finally visiting the Pawn Shop in Chapter 7. Therefore, Fin is using a Steel Lance at best, which gives him 1 more Mt but no Continue. I'd personally give it to Fury ASAP simply because she needs it more at this point. You can't wait until the end of the chapter because Fin leaves before you get to arena/shop/etc in Ch4, after all.
The only thing that makes Fin "win" is that Hero Lance which he won't have for much longer at all. Other than that Beowulf is pretty on par with Fin if not winning.
That's great, but! Prayer lasts for one freaking turn - the turn it's activated. If you don't heal Fin, he's dead. If you heal Fin, it will most likely be with Ethlin, who will not heal him fully. Why Ethlin? Because Ethlin wants to get a little more leveling before she leaves, and your other healers still have other chapters to cap their level. And then Fin is cockblocking the pirates on the bridge with his gazillion avoid, and not one-rounding them since his Hero Lance is gone. Beowulf, however, has great avoid against them regardless of Prayer. The most accurate ones would have about 37%~, Hand Axe ones even below that. Beowulf is activating Duel like 40% of the time (11 AS - -8 for dumb pirate AS makes 19, then we add 24 for Beowulf's max HP/2), so he can actually one-round them. He's not dying because of Duel though because it can't trigger below 25 HP. If Fin is attacked by a random pirate or two first, then by Pizarl (who gets to him quickly thanks to his Leg Ring), he's going to take 25 damage and not going to avoid it. Which risks him actually dying. Beowulf is not dependant on Prayer to survive, Beowulf wins.
First off, Beowulf is helping the team at this point. Fin is running away with his tail between his legs. When Beowulf wasn't there, Fin was being babied. Fuck yeah Beowulf. The Pegasi are going to get a taste of Beowulf's Wing Clipper. Beowulf is doubling them as long as they use their Slim Lances (which they will), and they won't be living through two consecutive auto-criticals. He can have a shot at the Wind Mages as well - by now he has Continue and a 37% chance of activating it, and even if he doesn't Continue he can still dodge Elwind in forest or town squares. Promoted Beowulf can use blade weapons which give him 32, 36 or even 40 attack depending on what you want to give him. He still has at least 108 hit with them because of his insane +9 Skl promotion bonus, enough to hit these pirates with like 10 evasion on town squares. He does 21, 25 or 29 damage per hit, always double making that 42, 50 or 54. If Beowulf is L21 or L22 he has 20 Str, meaning he will one-round these pirates with the Silver Blade (they have 55HP). Not that he really needs to, because 34% of the time on each of his hits he can also Continue, and then afterwards there is also a 40% chance of activating Duel. The axefighters that chase the civilians have less HP than these pirates but the same Def and AS, so Beowulf is doing even better against them. He can teach them the meaning of the word pain while someone who needs some leveling can take the civilians. The Warriors that guard Zaxon have the same HP and 3 more Def in addition to 3 more AS, very small differences and still very liable to getting one-rounded by any of Beowulf's skills. He can one-round the Wind Mages in this group as well. Beowulf doubles each and every one of the swordchick army with a usual sword, and with a Blade he doubles all but Lamia (the boss). They have lower defensive parameters than the pirates (52/11) especially the Thunder Mages who only have 3 Def. The only things Beowulf has a bit of trouble with in this chapter are the bosses, but those are the same things Fin couldn't conquer in Ch2 and Ch3. And Beowulf still can do his part of weakening them because he can use the Clipper against the Pegasi ones and the Cutter against the armoured ones. Beowulf is ruling in Chapter 4 and Fin is just not there.
Yes, Beowulf can use the Cutter to (heh) cut them up. Between two guaranteed criticals via Pursuit, a 36% chance for Continue (assuming 22 Spd (17 AS) at around L25 or L26) and then almost 50% chance of activating Charge, these guys will struggle to live for even one round. He's capable of fucking up the Thunder Mages in one round as well. Beowulf can play his part in fighting Reptor's army and you're not going to lose any turns for tactics, since Sigurd has to cross the desert as well and they have the same movement. The Fire Mages can be one-shotted with Fury who can get there with Sylvia's help without anyone having to take their hits, and all Firemages sway to your side when you provoke Reptor's army anyway. The wyverns are hardly an issue since they can be distracted so easily by someone guarding Phinora castle. Heck, if I want to I can let Beowulf stay there, guard it while holding a Wing Clipper and dodge every wyvern that attempts to hit him while battering them back with autocrits. Thor Hammer is hardly an argument - there's very few units in your army who can take a hit, live to tell the tale and actually damage Reptor. You'll take care of him with Sigurd and Levin while Beowulf doubles everything else in that army, can 'Cutter anything armored and retreat a bit after hitting something thanks to his mount. Getting hit by something is hardly a problem since you have Reserve by now as well as quite a few other healers and of course Sylvia.
|
|
|
|
| Paperblade | Sep 28 2007, 02:03 AM Post #4 |
|
Oh?
Azel has 3 less Move and no durability. They're beating him up, not Fin. Cuan's doubling is ridiculously unreliable. Anyway. Existing > Not Existing. It's not like Beo does much better in 4-5.
What, Fin's not one rounding in Prologue and 1? Damn... that sounds like... Everyone who isn't Sigurd, Ayra, and Jamka. 2 of which are Top Tier. And one of which is only in like the last quarter of 1. Oh noes.
Beo's AS advantage hardly matters when he has lower concrete durability anyway and his doubling advantage over the few units who are slower than Beo but faster than Fin isn't enough to put him ahead because Fin's Attack is so much higher and he has a 100% Continue, which >>>>> Duel. So 2 enemies, neither of which are very common and that Beowolf is going to be worse off against ANYWAY, because if Beowolf is able to kill it in one round, Fin's doing it too and doing it better because of higher attack and getting his 2 attacks off without a counter, are unable to be one rounded by Fin. Meanwhile, Beo is using weak Swords against a bunch of high Defense enemies that he's hardly hurting at all. At least when Fin was sucking he hurt enemies, Beo's just being a pain. Also, Fin gets last hits because it's stupid to have him attack and eat a counter and then have say, Mideel attack to finish the enemy off, especially since Fin effects the Second Generation far more than anyone who isn't going to have a Child will.
No, because +10 Avoid for ~2 chapters is outweighed by an easier EXP Rank because of Lakche and Skasaha leveling faster from Elite. +3 Strength is going to go nearly unnoticed in the First Gen, whereas it keeps Fin from being completely useless because of the Children in the Second Gen. It's not Lex/Ayra is difficult to get at all, their convo in 3 gives a massive boost, and Lex should be hanging back anyway once he gets to 30 as to not steal EXP.
There's no reason for Fin to hand in the Hero Lance quickly, because no one else is using it as effectively as him. Fury's Strength sucks so she's not going to be one rounding some enemies even WITH it, Noish lacks Pursuit and can't use it until promotion, same with Alec but he has Pursuit. Sigurd and Cuan have better weapons to use. I could understand Warping/Returning him to a Castle like halfway through Orgahill because Sigurd has to run from Silvail over to Orgahill, but there's no reason for him to sell it as soon as Chapter 3 begins.
I gave Beowolf a much larger level advantage than he'd ever realistically have. Normally, Beo'd probably be sitting around 14-15 crying because Fin's kicking ass and taking names and he's hoping that Fin saves some for him (Of course, the only thing Fin leaves behind are the Magic Users that take off half of Beo's HP anyway). He's not gaining 10 levels in one chapter, especially considering how mediocre he is at combat. He's likely going to be around 15, which swings things considerably in Fin's favor, since the attack defense lead becomes more prominent and the avoid lead has shrunk. And again, there's no reason for Fin not to use the Hero Lance. He's the best wielder of it, simple as that.
I fail to understand why you'd heal him and then not move anyone to let him die, or why you'd not heal with ANOTHER healer, since Ethlin ain't gonna get bonus EXP for not healing...
It's a far better idea to let Fin use the Hero Lance to clear out Orgahill (or at least the bridge area). It's not like anyone else wants it right now... Hm, 12 Weight Lance or 3 Weight Sword against Axe Users? I think I'll take the -24 Avoid and -20 more from WTD over the -6 and +20 from WTA. Only that's stupid, you're losing 58 Avoid by using the Hero Lance over a sword here. Fin can't use anything else, there's no reason for him to not be using it now.
100% Continue and Prayer >>> 40% Duel + ~35% Continue
Pizarl moves last, so the only way this would happen is if there were already only a couple Pirates left, in which case why the hell is the test of their battle prowess a comparison of them versus Fin at his worst point in the entire First Gen? Let's throw Beo against those 4 Lance Knights and that General to the east of Agusty in Chapter 3 and see how well he fares. Fin's cockblocking enemies he sucks against, Beo's just dying.
Yes, gogo 1 Res unit with mediocre Avoid against the army of Elwind users.
Why does Beo deserve the Wing Clipper over the myriad of other Sword Users? Fin was competing against like, one person for the Hero Lance and he was clearly better with it because he one rounded, liek, everything with it (probably most bosses too, but Big Shield is haet). Beo is competing against like... a third of your army. Against people that really want it too. Like Alec. And Noish. Alec needs some love, man. And Wind Mages have like... 45 Hit against him even on Forest. That's not very good odds.
Wait, wait, wait. Beowolf, the accurate, swift, mounted Sword User with the highest might Swords available is one rounding the almighty Pirates and their amazing -5 AS? You just totally blew my mind, dude.
That's a 39.6% chance that neither activate, and then there's the chance that somebody else wants the Silver Blade because Beowolf doesn't have a monopoly on Swords.
We don't care about axe users. We already know he's good against them. It'd be like me going "Hai Mekkah, did you know that Fin one rounds the 40HP 10 Defense Sword Users without even getting attacked? AWESOMESAUCE FIN>BEO" That's all totally true, but it's irrelevant. Unmounted Axers are like the crappiest enemies in the game. Axefighters are like Swordfighters, only with no Pursuit and like 15 less AS, which sucks, because the only reason Swordfighters don't suck is because lots of people have trouble doubling them.
There's a grand total of 15 Axe users in this chapter. Pamela's Pegasus Squad has 12 Pegasus Knights, +1 for her. That's 13 Lance using units right there that, most of which are going to be hitting because of either Slim Lance hit hax, or not being countered and thus being annoying as hell.
He's one rounding the weakest Wind Mages that we care about (the other is some Blizzard user that only Fury is going to be getting to without taking like 20 turns of running through the Mountains), and taking a nasty counter along with it because his Res Sucks.
They also have +20 Hit/Avoid from Lamia and 22 natural Avoid, for 44 Avoid against Beo's amazing 110 or so. 66 Hit. That's a 43% chance of missing once. With Continue and Duel his chances of not failing increases, but it's still hardly reliable, since he's relying on several unreliable variables in hopes that at least one doesn't mess up completely. Never mind the Sleep Sword. Thunder Mages have like 130 Hit and like 25 attack. Beo's being hit hard by them. If Beo gets hit once, Lamia could one round him since she's doubling (unless he's already 25+, unlikely) and has Continue.
Fin only struggled because of Big Shield (and not wanting to eat a Knight Killer from Zain, that thing is enough to send any mounted unit running back). Even with it, he's easily two rounding pretty easily because of x4 attacks against most bosses and the pitiful defense of those he isn't (Clement).
More like Beo is stealing everyone's swords just so he can be mediocre. At least Fin didn't hog all the Lances, he just wanted 1 of them that no one but Fury even wanted, and Fury sucks anyway. Beo's like, "Hay, even though we have like 6 other Sword users here, I'm gonna call dibs on this Wing Clipper and Silver Claymore, kthx. *STEALS*" while Fin is getting his Hero Lance stolen by that slut on a pegasus because Lances are more effective than Swords against axe users.
So. Out of Alec Beowolf Fury Holyn Lachesis Noish (Plus Ardan and Dew, but they suck) Beowolf has the Silver Claymore, Wing Clipper, AND the Iron Cutter for 2+ chapters? And you say I'm babying Fin? lolwut?
Except when he gets OHKO'd by Thorhammer and you're like "Shit, dammit Beo, why couldn't you be like Fin and have left Sigurd to solo this?"
Which totally compensates for his amazing 2 move in the sand/desert.
Solo Beowolf vs. 13 Dragon Riders with Knight Killers, plus a Dragon Knight with 3 leadership stars a Hero Lance. Beo has 43 Avoid, to 73 from Phinora, to 53 from WTD. The Knight Killer has 60 Hit. +24 hit from Skill. 31 Hit. What's that, and he's being 2HKO'd? And this is assuming that the boss isn't in range to give Leadership? He has a 0.8% chance of dodging every attack. His chance of dodging just 12 in a row is 1.1%. By the way, the Hero Lance dude has 79 Hit on him and 2 hits is about as strong as a Knight Killer attack.
Or I can just let Levin solo it all and not have to worry about stuff like "Is Beo gonna get raped by Thorhammer?"
Unless you get OHKO'd. By Thorhammer. Because you were stupid and brought your amazing 5 Res Forest Knight to fight Reptor.
Fin's weapons are much stronger, 100% Continue > unreliable Continue + Duel. Beo's hogging all the swords. Fun Fact: Iron Lance > Steel Sword in Might. By 2. And Fin is using Hero. Which has auto-Continue. GG?
The number of lance users FAR exceeds the number of Axe Users, and the Lancers are far more mobile and are more likely to get Leadership. In Chapter 5 he's forced to use the ONLY IRON CUTTER to be good, and in doing so makes several other units with less weapon choice useless.
I like how you make it sound like Fin relying on the Hero Lance is a bad thing while Beo is using it for 2+ chapters while also using the Silver Claymore. PROTIP: Needing 3 one of a kind weapons to have a good offense is not good. Also. Prologue: Fin sucks at durability but is great at offense. Beo doesn't exist. Chapter 1: Fin sucks less at durability and got even better at offense. Beo still doesn't exist. Chapter 2: Fin's durability is now getting awesome and his offense becomes godly because of the Hero Lance, which only Fury wants, but Fury sucks because her Strength blows (one great unit and one below average one >>> 2 slightly above average ones). Beo joins but is pretty crappy because his Attack is low and his skills unreliable. Chapter 3: Fin continues to kick ass and Beo continues to be an unreliable bum using a Steel Sword against Lance users. Chapter 4: Fin doesn't exist, Beowolf needs to hog three great swords to make his offense reliable. Chapter 5: See Chapter 4. So Beo is totally reliant on his weapon, whereas Fin is still good with just the Steel Lance. Hero Lance Fin one rounds or brutally maims everything. Beo is gonna be bad if he has the wrong weapon out.
First Gen. I said First Gen.
Way to take things out of context. We call that loyalty, something that Beowolf obviously lacks.
Let me reword this. Beowolf gets 0 woman (not paired) or 1 (paired). Fin gets 1 woman (not paired or paired with Lachesis) or 2 (paired with someone who isn't Lachesis, as Fin/Lachesis is canon, it's just now he might have some other kids running around fighting resurrected dark gods). 2 > 1 1 = 1 1 > 0 Fin either wins or ties no matter how you slice it. We don't know how many random women they were with off screen, but on screen Fin is clearly kicking Beo's ass.
I doubt that. |
|
|
|
| Mekkah | Sep 30 2007, 09:59 AM Post #5 |
|
Yeah.
Azel still has more offense than Fin which was my point. Cuan is still one-rounding more than Fin - 20% of the time as opposed to not at all. Beowulf does great in chapter 4 and 5, at least he is helping more than Fin is helping in prologue and 1, because he has options to make him good whereas Fin is being babied.
Not one-rounding wouldn't be such a crime, but Fin can only get EXP without getting beaten up by killing off something. At least Alec, Noish and Lex can weaken things without rolling over.
All I was showing Beowolf's AS advantage for was to show that Fin's WTA becomes hardly worth mentioning when Beowulf has some more avoid to close the gap. You claimed Fin was one-rounding anything except [list of enemies which does not include these cavaliers]. I claim Fin cannot one-round those either. There isn't more to it than that. So you concede that Fin was sucking. That's good. Beowulf does enough damage to finish off things anyways. Fin HAS to get last hits because it's really stupid to have him attack an axe user up straight when he's going to take a punch to the face nearly all the time, whereas EVERYONE else in your army has a way around this by either swords, ranged attack or just plain being durable enough. Also this is the first generation we're debating. Fin getting kills in Chapters 0 and 1 for preparing the second generation sounds a little bit early to me, you'll want to train up the rest too. Can't see what you're going at here.
I don't get why you're quoting yourself since I already gave you the villages and I'm pro Lex/Ayra.
Fury can use the Hero Lance because EXP is a gay ass rank and it helps her offense, whereas Fin is still doing okay with Steel. Fury having good offense and Fin having good offense > Fury having bad offense and Fin having betterthangood offense. Fury can get rid of the Mage squad in the forests relatively quickly (no one else is prolly going to reach them before you seize Madino) and she can also give the Hero Lance some more kills by attacking pirates with it and thereby supporting Claude/Fury/Brigid. If she gets hit that's okay since Claude can Reserve.
Beowulf being at lower level than Fin is obvious, yes. It doesn't matter much at this point since Fin is leaving. Chapter 3 goes in multiple directions. Beowulf can take the armors on any place on the map while Fin does something else. He doesn't need 10 levels from Chapter 2, he just needs enough levels to promote before Chapter 4. Everything else discussed before.
If Fin needs to be saved from dying every time that is a point against him. "I fail to see why you'd leave Nino to be killed". I don't get where the bonus EXP thing is coming from.
Sure as hell you'd want to give some other units EXP so they can promote before Chapter 4. Fin has the second generation to do that anyway. Everything else seems to be a point against Fin?? Anyway Silver Blade Beowulf owns the shit out of these pirates.
More like Hero Lance > Steel Sword.
The worst point of Fin is when he's being babied or when he's not there at all, but sure if you want to declare this his worst point  Anyway we were talking about this situation, and it seems Beowulf is better in this situation. Everything else seems to be rather lopsided: Fin sucks in Prologue and Ch1, Fin's doing better in Ch2 and part of Ch3 due to level lead, then leaves like a pussy while Beowulf is still fighting and killing.I suppose "at least when he's sucking he's doing damage" can be backfired on you here since Beowulf can use the Iron Cutter against them. And also hide in forests and shit. But hey this is only 5 enemies in total that Beowulf has little business against besides stealing a kill or something.
Fin's got a chance of dying as well, like if he doesn't exactly have these averaged stats, or if Pizarl manages to kill him before his precious Prayer comes in.
Yes because the rest of your army has so much more RES and Beowulf isn't able to one-round the fuckers and your avoid cannot be boosted by forests at all and Fin is doing so much better.
List of sword users: Ayra - One-rounds them with her Hero Sword. Alec - Can use it and is prolly Beo's main competition for it, but then again he does decent damage with lances. Ardan - Heh. Azel - Heh. Beowulf - He's good I hear. Dew - Hardly able to gain levels, not mounted, not doubling, therefore not good with Wing Clipper. Fury - Is busy saving villages. Holyn - Rapes the shitfuck out of them with a usual sword thanks to insane Skl and Moonlight Hit. And he's not mounted. Lachesis - Can use Lex' Hero Axe, as well as about any other weapon including all the bows. Noish - Doesn't double with it, so he completely relies on Charge to one-round them. Sigurd - Silver Sword. Enough said. Tiltyu - Heh. None of Beowulf's competition is able to double with the Wing Clipper AND gets there as quickly as he does, except Alec and Lachesis. Alec can do good damage with a lance and Lachesis does OHKOs with bows and still hurts with Hero Axe/whatever lanceoraxe, Beowulf does not have this. Alec with Clipper and Beowulf with whatever gives worse output than Alec with lance and Beowulf with Clipper, therefore Beowulf gets the Clipper.
??
"Hey Beowulf's offense isn't enough to kill axe users and we don't have time to dick around HELP" "Beowulf's offense is enough [numbers]" "wow you just blew my mind"
Who can use these blades and need them? Ayra and Holyn don't need them, Lachesis doesn't need them, Sigurd doesn't need them. That leaves Fury and a lot of people who can't use them due to weapon level. Fury can only use it if she's promoted at this point, which is hard to do since she comes at a low level and very late in Ch2, and weaken pirates with swords then kill with auto-Continue Hero Lance when they're weak enough. Beowulf doesn't have any noticable competition for these swords. You're also doing your maths wrong. Beowulf needs only one of his skills to activate to one-round said opponent. Beowulf attacks for a 3HKO. Continue activates 34% of the time here, 66% of the time it does not. Enemy counterattack. Beowulf attacks with Pursuit. Continue activates 34% of the time here, 66% of the time it does not. Game checks if Beowulf is going to CHAAAAARGE. 40% of the time he will, 60% of the time he will not. To not trigger Continue, Continue and Charge, the chance would be 66% * 66% * 60%. That makes a 26% chance of not one-rounding.
We care about axe users because you said Beowulf wasn't good enough against them and I proved otherwise. They are enemies of FE4 Gen 1 that Beowulf owns and Fin does not, therefore it is relevant. I never contested Fin killing 40HP10DEF Swordfighters. Also the only thing axefighters and swordfighters have in common is that both of their names end in -fighters. I can't see what you're trying to pull here.
Pamela goes for Thove castle because Andre told her to do so. Beowulf isn't "dicking around" at Thove, he's fighting Warriors at Silesia. If the Pegasi come towards Beowulf they have to face the rest of the group too, most of which have about as much trouble as he does, since as you said a large part of your army uses swords as well. But since Beowulf has the Wing Clipper he is doing as well as any other sword user if not better...or any other unit for that matter. Lex can WTA them but he's likely at 30 already and you don't want him to hog EXP. Bow users can't counterattack period unless you put them on the edge of Javelin range. Fury can counter with Javelin but lose avoid, or just do hit-and-run as she usually does.
Way to ignore the Warriors but anyway, 34% of the time he will Continue against the Wind Mage and not take any damage at all. Sigurd, for example, will always have to face an Elwind since even with 24 Str (his L27+ average) he doesn't OHKO them. He is also one rounding the other Wind Mages in this chapter so whatever.
If you place Beowulf carefully as opposed to like, within Lamia's leadership range so every single of her mercs can attack him freely, that becomes 86 hit, a 73% chance of landing both hits. And that's with a 'Blade...with a Steel or Silver Sword he just won't miss at all. And THEN you still have Continue and Duel to count on. Thunder Mages are like the Wind Mages in this chapter, Beowulf has a chance of killing them with Continue before they even hit them unlike many of your other units. Lamia killing Beowulf? Heh. First off, you're a fool if you let Beowulf get doubled by her. He's mounted, so he gets to move after attacking, which also means that he gets to reselect his weapon equipment before enemy phase. He still has the Wing Clipper and Iron Cutter with him, and those weigh only 5, so he only needs 21 speed not to get doubled. Which he has a decent chance of having at L21, and averages easily at L22-L23. But of course, to really screw up Lamia we could just let Beowulf use a lighter 3 wt sword, which :gasp: makes Beowulf double Lamia! But why is Beowulf being pitted on his OWN against her entire squadron? You have Holsety Levin plus 78923789 other units that are going towards Zaxon castle. Beowulf is just a good help in taking them down but you're not sending him off on his own, are you?
I think there's more that makes Fin struggle. - Elliot he 4x attacks indeed as long as he'd L7 or higher...oh wait he doesn't have Hero Lance yet. Hrhr. And the Silver Lance counter hurts. - Phillip he can double too, but for rather pitful damage if Cuan is still using Steel Lance as he should, and even if Fin is using Steel he's not doing all that much. - Boldo (guards Heirhein) he sucks against, he's not doubling him unless Fin has 16 Spd, and at L13 he averages 13.6 - Yay he can 4x attack the Duke Knight captain - He's absolutely not doing shit against MacBeth and his 23 Defense. - Augustry Duke Knight captain again...he doesn't one round the Augustry Paladin though! - McBeth he does okay against sort of, might miss a couple of times, eat a Thunder in return and not 4x attack because Clement has 3 AS (same as Boldo) - Zain is just ough - Shagaal he's not 4xing, generally not hurting that much due to Big Shield, throne evade, 15 Def etc. But yeah nice attempt at generalizing bosses.
I could repeat what I said already but then you would be repeating what you countered it with and that would be sorta useless so let's not do that.
You're handholding Fin in the first few chapters, yes. Beowulf just needs the weaponry, and he has rights to that weaponry because no one else who can use it as well as he can needs it. So basically what I said before except less detailed.
Yeah what the shit is Beowulf doing in Thor Hammer range? Let Sigurd and Levin and whoever else is there that can take a hit stand in Reptor's range while Beowulf does hit-and-run then hides.
Sigurd has the same movement range so there's no reason to hurry up. If there's no Meteor thanks to Fury and Sylvia then who gives a damn?
Ok, so Beowulf is not solo-ing them that easily.
That sounds like a great way to nuke your EXP rank. How about we actually bring other units there to get kills, as opposed to Levin who has such high evasion that the enemies don't target him? Then you have two possible scenarios. 1) They cockblock all around Levin and nothing happens at all during enemy phase. 2) They cockblack all around Levin and Reptor starts fighting him, then Levin kills Reptor and everything disappears and you missed out on a bunch of EXP.
Yes, I'm going to keep Beowulf in the range of an enemy unit with only 5 movement (though 1-2 range) when I could let him autocrit an Armorknight/General or nuke a Sniper then run behind the frontlines again. That sounds like a brilliant way to play a strategy RPG.
Beo's crits do more damage than a regular Fin hit so it's not that big of a gap. Swordshogging has been handled.
Hm? Chapter 4 has more lancers because of the Pegasi, but half of those (Pamela's squad) he won't face. You can lure and kill a lot of pegasi out of leadership anyway, it's such a small difference. At least Beowulf is good in Ch5, and the only other person the Iron Cutter would make a significant difference on is Alec. Every other worthwhile sword user has their own ways of fucking up armors. Beowulf does it better than Alec thanks to Continue and Charge, so I don't see why Alec would get it.
He's not really hurting anyone on your team taking them. He's the best user for them because the ones that would use it "better" all don't need it and the ones that are worse are just going to suck at using it. So Beowulf has these things available to him, and that's a good thing.
Hero Lance Fin is good indeed, but that glory lasts for a relatively short time when you take into account that Fin isn't anything special the first two and a half chapters (and that's putting it in a kind way), and doesn't exist for the last two ones. "if beo has wrong weapun he will suck!?!" Why would you ever give him the wrong weapon? Enemies come in packs of units where you use the same weapon against all the freaking time. Group of pegasi? Wing Clipper. Group of armors? Iron Cutter. Group of just about anything else? Silver Blade.
And I say they're still nothing to fawn over. He has no Holy Blood, and average-wise it's not like he's miles above other great units such as Jamka.
Yes because Beowulf is the one who flees the army he fought with ever since the prologue to return to the safe Lenster.
If you're going to assume canon you might as well assume Beowulf gets Lachesis so "1 > 0" isn't an option. And if you're saying Fin is loyal then he wouldn't be cheating on said other woman with Lachesis, so worst case scenario for Beowulf it's a tie. And then Beowulf isn't stealing someone's wife while Fin is. In fact, he is GIVING Fin HIS girl because he needs it to hide his homosexuality.
That's okay, you can't help it, you think Fin is loyal and heterosexual. |
|
|
|
| Paperblade | Oct 3 2007, 11:08 PM Post #6 |
|
k.
Fin's not being babied. Sure, he does shitty in Chapter 1, but Beowolf does shitty in Chapter 2, so it's even. In fact, Fin is the least babied unit in the entire First Gen. Why? He comes back in the Second Gen, where there's FAR more EXP being tossed around combined with more Elite, which also lets the First Gen units cap out at 30 easier. 20% is unreliable. Yes, Cuan's better occasionally, but not often enough to matter, especially since Fin >>>>>>>>>> Cuan against the hordes of armors and mounted units in 2 and 3. But this isn't Fin vs. Cuan, so it's off-topic. Azel's Move and horrid durability hurt him a lot.
The only other person taking much damage is Cuan and Lex, because everyone else has hax Swords or ranged. Lex has Elite, Cuan occasionally one rounds. Yeah, this is a point against them, but unlike Cuan and Lex, Fin still has SEVEN more chapters to get from 1 to 30, since he has 2+3 and 7-Epilogue. Hell, he could not do anything and help the team by boosting EXP Rank (which is a paaaaaain in the First Gen because there's crap like Arden and Dew and far fewer+lower leveled enemies), but that would be stupid, so he can still help out occasionally to level up a bit.
Level 11 Fin has 10 more Luck than Beo. So Fin has 4 less Avoid against Bow and Magic users (which he'd doing better against on the player phase due to higher attack), 24 less against Axe Users (because we're going to send the mono-Lance user against the Axers, as opposed to one of the 6-7 other Sword users, right?), 16 more against Lances (only one Axe user for most of First Gen, since Lex hits 30 soon after Lachesis promotes to get Axes, and Arden will be lucky to hit 20 by the end of 5... Also, they're very common, due to Lance Armors, Lance Knights, the occasional Social Knight, Generals, and the Dragon Riders in 3), and 16 more against Swords (also pretty common compared to Axes). Plus, Charge/Duel might activate against enemies that Beo can't counter. And Fin has Prayer just in case. And he should be using Slim if Fury is stealing his Hero Lance, giving him more Avoid and shrinking the AS gap.
It depends on whether or not he's using Hero. Fin doubling is going to be far more reliable than Beo, since the Steel Sword << Steel Lance (this is assuming he instantly gives Fury the Hero Lance and never uses it at all in the First Gen... If he's using Hero, Beo instaloses). Plus, Chapters 2 and 3 is when Beo's skills are least reliable, and he's lacking Continue due to no promotion yet, so he's relying on Duel.
Beo isn't one rounding anything when he joins except for the Fire Mages at Mackily without Duel. Unless you mean kill stealing and last hitting, which we chastised Fin for in Prologue and 1. Only Fin comes back in 7, so he doesn't need the kills as much and you can thus be pretty lenient with leveling him, whereas Beo is only around for the First Gen, and is thus totally reliant on it.
Fin doesn't need to be last hitting every turn. Just every once in a while so that he's above Arden in levels (not hard to do). By the way, Fin's better off with the Javelin than Cuan, since Cuan's much better suited for taking counters because he's a tank, unlike Fin.
Boredom, mostly.
Speaking of the EXP rank sucking ass. Fin is in 9 chapters. He barely has to fight at all in the time he's in the First Gen to max out. It's what, 3 levels a chapter? Meanwhile Beo needs something like 5 and a quarter. 3 a chapter is easy mode with the Arena, too, since that drops it down to like, 2 from actual combat (maybe less) since Fin is like god if he gets to use the Hero Lance for the Arena. Fin's winning EXP Rank by a long shot, which is easily the most difficult rank, and can sit at castles to prevent losing them from ranks from losing them after hitting 30. And since Rank is cumulative between First and Second gen, this is completely relevant, since Fin is now one of, if not the, easiest unit to max out. Also, why the hell are we using a LANCE against PIRATES? I mean, yeah, give Fury the lance by that point, but seriously. You're uber gimping any unit by having them use a Lance over a Sword against an Axe User. -18 Avoid for the weight, then -20 more for gaining WTD, then -20 more for losing WTA. I'd rather be building up kills on the Thunder Sword so that Fee can run around being uber, but if you insist... It's not even the Avoid that gets owned, she's also losing 40 hit...
So we agree that Fin > Beo in Chapters 2 and 3, since Beo isn't the only sword user that wants and can use the Iron Cutter to one round and wouldn't reliably one round otherwise.
I don't mean like FE9 BEXP. I mean there's no reason to leave a unit half dead just because Ethlin needed some EXP. Edain and Lachesis are perfectly capable of topping people off with Ethlin still getting her 20EXP or whatever staff you're using, so there's no reason to say someone's gonna be half dead. This hardly matters anyway, Fin shouldn't be stealing EXP from people who are leaving within 2 chapters and not coming back, especially against the pirates.
And Steel Lance Fin > Everything leading up to that. And Beowolf likely won't have the Silver Blade against Orgahill, since Shagall just dropped it.
Well, you did compare Level 22 Beo with one of the better Swords to underleveled Fin that had... Steel Lance or something. And Slim Lance Fin > Steel Sword Beo for Chapters 2-3.
There's like, no forests over there. And they have Javelins. And he has Duel. And a massive AS advantage to make it go off more often and get attacked more at range. And the General has a Silver Lance. And there's Lance Knights to the west, meaning Beo basically has to go north and fight the Axe Armors+Arch Knights and then the Lance/Sword/Bow Armors with the rest of the group or be put at a huge disadvantage. Also, Fin comes back in Chapter 7-Epilogue when Beo is dead for being stupid enough to trust Alvis, meaning he doesn't really need to do much in the First Gen and is better off gaining minimal EXP because of the EXP shortage in the First Gen when compared to the Second Gen. Fin's like Lex. He's not used that often, but he's a great unit because he's so easy to level up. Although Fin is for different reasons: he's in so many chapters and gets to fight in the Arena so often that there's no reason for him to need to go fight enemies he has a big disadvantage against very often, he can just sit back and weaken them or occasionally pick them off.
There's no reason to send the mono-Lance user in to cockblock the army of Axe users while on terrain that gives -10 Avoid anyway, especially one that doesn't need the EXP as much. It'd be like sending Lex in. He doesn't need more EXP. Fin should have been sent over to be awesome at Silvail since there's no Axe users there. So then he can sit around there and do whatever, sell the Hero Lance if he still has it or just sit there and be awesome, it's not really important, since by the time he'd get to Orgahill everything will be dead. And arguing RNG screwage is bad form, you can just as easily be blessed.
At least Fin was able to counter the enemies when Beo wasn't around. These guys have 1-2 range. Not like it matters, since Fin doing almost nothing and making EXP easier is better than being just another combat unit, especially since the only combat rating to my knowledge is "How often did you die?" and "How many people are still alive?" And his low Res+getting there first makes Beo a target for the Sleep Staff.
I'm pretty sure that the Silver Blade is stronger than any weapon Alec is capable of using. Hm, Steel Lance (16 might) and Wing Clipper (one rounding) or Wing Clipper (one rounding) and Silver Blade (20 might). Alec needs them more than Beo because he can't use the 20 Might Sword or the 20 Might Lance. Seriously, the dude with 3 bonus attack skills doesn't need auto-crit weapons.
>_> I don't think I said that. Regardless, comparing the Lance User and the Sword User against Axe users will end up badly. Beo with a Steel Sword at Level 10 is dealing like, 20-22 damage total to the armors in Chapter 2. Fin's dealing about 28-30 with Steel.
Holyn probably wants the Steel Blade at least, since it's better than the Silver Sword. Regardless, Fin does fine with Steel, since he doesn't need to be levelling as much, unlike Beo, and can thus give his uber weapons to others. Also. Sigurd's Strength is not uber enough for him to one round everything with Silver Sword. He might want the Blade too, perhaps moreso since unlike Beo, he doesn't have an ungodly amount of extra attacks.
That's after promotion, where he has the Silver Blade, and thus has ubar attack and Fin isn't there. And I totally forgot Continue can proc off of the second attack.
I was referring to that neither of them are worth caring about because of how rare they are. There's like, 6 Axefighters after Beo joins, and Fin won't even fight them because he's not there. The enemies that Fin is better against are far more common than those that Beo is better against, so it's really a moot point.
Alec should be using the Wing Clipper, because he's not doubling EVER against the Slim Lances if he's a Steel Lance, and Steel Sword Alec vs. Silver Blade Beo is a no brainer in offense. And he's not one rounding if he doubles anyway, so there's no reason to gimp him like that.
There's a grand total of 3 Warriors, and anyone can one round them. Beo is nothing special, even less so when we factor in that if he's not at 26 or so, he needs Continue/Duel, which while having a high activation rate, are not 100% reliable when compared to other units, who are more uber at this point.
So Beo has Silver Blade Wing Clipper Iron Cutter Steel and/or Silver Sword On a unit with Pursuit, Continue, AND Duel. Meanwhile, the guy with just Pursuit is given just a Silver Sword because he's Sigurd, never mind that he's only going to have about 1-2 more Strength at most, but has a 6 might weaker weapon than the Silver Blade. And is slower. Yes. Of course. That makes perfect sense. Holyn has even less Strength prior to 27 or so, and Moonlight Hit <<< Continue and Duel. Stop babying Beowolf. If he seriously needs all that, there's something horribly wrong. Not only are you gimping the rest of your team by forcing people like Holyn to use weaker weapons, but you're owning their Kill counts because only Beo is gaining kills for them. Beo is making the rest of the team weaker. Fin doesn't need to because he can gain minimal EXP by just weakening stuff with the Javelin because he gets to fight in 8 Arenas throughout the game and can use the uber Hero Lance for all but one of them (Chapter 1). Beo seems to be requiring FAR more babying than Fin does.
It's like, a 38% chance. And the same could be said of Hero Lance Fin against magic users.
Because I don't want to send out my sword users with Steel Swords and hope for the best.
Cuan is still using Steel against Philip? Why doesn't he have Elliot's Silver lance? And why didn't Fin buy the Steel Lance from the shop? It's not like anyone else needs it, and since he's giving up the Hero Lance so quickly he needs something better than Iron. Fin shouldn't be fighting them anyway, since he doesn't need the EXP. And he's still doing better than Beowolf.
Beo's using 4 Swords, all of which are very good and that several other units could use and get similar results (namely the Wing Clipper and Iron Cutter... For all the praising you do about Beo's extra attacks, you love to ignore them when it comes to giving him more weapons) Fin wants ONE weapon for TWO chapters that only ONE other unit wants, and that unit isn't even there for most-all of that first chapter.
Alec. Holyn. Sigurd. Hell, Noish. You have Pursuit, Continue, and Duel. You don't need 40+ attack and Autocrit to go along with it when we guys with less Strength and only Pursuit.
5 Move + 2 attack, 7 range. Beo is one outside, but let's say he's attacking someone... 3 spaces away from Reptor. So he moves forward 4, attacks, and moves back 5, so he's one space further back than before. That's about as far away from Reptor you can get attacking one of his underlings like that...
... Fury should be triggering Leptor's movement since she'll already be down there. Meaning that you'll likely engage combat with Reptor in/near the desert, where Beowolf is slooooooow.
*ever.
Oh, right. I forgot to bring Sigurd. By the way, 126 Hit vs ~90 Avoid from losing Avoid on desert is enough to get him targeted, IIRC. Levin will need some EXP anyway. He joins at Level 6 and, while Continue and Berserk are awesome, he has trouble being a reliable attacker until he starts one shotting stuff with Holsety. Yeah, he's got uber Speed, but even with ~40% Continue he's not the most reliable unit around, especially when he has 6 Move and is thus straggling behind the mounted dudes.
You have 2 units that can take a hit, one of which is still likely not 30 yet.
More like you assumed that the unit with 3 extra-hit skills needs auto-crit more than the guy with less Strength and only 1. If by "been handled," you mean you just nuked Holyn and Alec's offense so that Beo could be awesome and run around one rounding stuff, then yeah, it's been handled. That almost sounds like what you're accusing me of doing with Fury. Speaking of Fury, she could use the Iron Cutter too, because not even the Hero Lance lets her one round armors.
Believe it or not, there are chapters that matter other than 4, and even ignoring Pamela's squad, the Lance Armors and Deetva's squad outnumber the Axe users. In 3, the only large group of axe users is Orgahill. Lots there, but Elto's squad alone is half of that number, and the lance users spread out at the start easily outnumber that. In 2, there's like 7 after he joins, and over twice as many lancers. In 5, Knight Killer squad is raep, although there are a few more axe users because of Slaydar + Mountain Thieves.
Sigurd has like, 25 Strength at 30, he's not fucking up Armors until he gets Tyrfring, in which case, oops, there's like 5 left in the game, whereas Alec still wants the damn thing and can't use A rank Swords. You're seriously overestimating the offense of Holyn and Sigurd here.
Sigurd with Silver Sword at Level 25. Attack: 38 Lance Armor in Chapter 4 49HP 15 Defense Sigurd hits for 23 twice, leaving it with 3HP. Sigurd doesn't need the Iron Cutter you say? Holyn with the Steel Blade at 25, same enemy. Attack: 39 Leaves with 1 HP unless Moonlight goes off, meaning a 53% chance of failure. Alec with the Iron Cutter against the same enemy, Level 25. 24 attack, doubled to 48. 48-15 is 33, doubles for the kill. Are you sure that Sigurd, Holyn, and Alec don't want it?
The difference between Fin and people like Beo or Jamka is that Fin spreads out his leveling for the EXP rank over the course of 8 Arenas and 9 Chapters, making him win for the EXP rank. Beo fights in 4 Arenas and only gets 21 total level ups, plus he's in only 4 chapters, which is already putting him at a huge disadvantage because he can't afford to miss out on kills, whereas Fin can pretty much do whatever the crap he wants because he's everywhere.
Lenster was in the middle of a war with Thracia, and they had to pass through Grandbell (which was currently probably looking for them because they had helped out Sigurd) just to get there. Clearly this is safer than staying in Silesia and killing Levin's crappy brothers.
lawl. Fin/Lachesis is canon, not Beowolf/Lachesis. In FE5, Fin is specifically referred to as Nanna's father on several occasions, and the only thing to possibly contradict that is that Delmud can use the Beo Sword, which is irrelevant because Felgus can too. The only real support Beo/Lachesis has is predestination from talks (in which case you've got just as good a chance of calling Dew/Lachesis canon). The pairings that we agreed upon for Tier Lists is based upon what is most efficient for a ranked run, not what we'd agree upon to be a canon pairing. And there's a large difference between being loyal to one's country and being loyal to a person. A country and a person are too hugely different things, and the only reason Fin follows Cuan around is because he's loyal to Lenster, and Cuan is the prince.
Nanna and Delmud had to have came from somewhere, and I can guarantee you it wasn't from Beo's fail. |
|
|
|
| Mekkah | Oct 6 2007, 01:22 PM Post #7 |
|
I'm going to concede this point, sorry fans.
First things first. And by that I mean shortest things first. Cuan > Fin in Ch0, Ch1, and due to his greater stats and Silver Lance he is likely to be on par if not beating Fin a lot against several enemies. One rounding one in five battles is better than not one rounding at all. Azel still has offense and range over Fin, there's not much beyond that. Now, if you are not babying Fin early on, then he isn't gaining that huge level lead you are suggesting. He doesn't have the Hero Lance yet, so he is not beating Shark in the Ch1 arena unless he gets lucky with Prayer activation, in which case he will just lose to the Axe Armor Bacchus (Stage 5) or the Wind Mage Emmile (Stage 6). If he is indeed just getting enough to stay ahead of Ardan as you suggest, he's not going to be so much rapage as you've been suggesting in your past two posts, which would make you contradictory. Fin (L1) is babied a little bit in Prologue and gets 1 level Fin (L2) fights in the arena and gains 1.5 level Fin (L3) is babied a little bit in Ch1 and gets another 1.5 level Fin (L5) fights a little bit more in Ch2 (namely, in the arena), possibly not doing good in the arena until he has his Hero Lance. You even admitted he's not taking on Heirhein's troops, and since he's absolute dick against each and every single of Elliot's troops (not doubling the Lance Knights, WTD against Axe knights, Elliot does like 27 damage on his 35 HP and moves last). So, Fin will not even have a level lead on Beowulf. If you don't agree with these levels given, too bad for you, should've given some kind of guideline for me to argue against. All the way through you were just working with me under the assumption Fin was keeping on par with the others, working harder than the others to do so because he's lower level and he sucks more against enemies. You didn't though, so I just assumed when you said "not being babied" that he's not killing as much as others (let alone ever weakening something). He wasn't so great at that either way, but you also conceded him getting a last kill every turn. It's like he's a sniper of sorts with constant WTD. Comparison revised. Let's say he's L7 when Beowulf joins. Then he's grown 3 levels in each chapter so far, which is seemingly the closest thing to an estimate you have given me:
You've also said that from your base to Heirhein is like a quarter of the chapter...
So uhhh 25 more EXP I guess. He's not pulling it from this chapter for sure, because you've also said he's not fighting Heirhein. But he can gain some in the arena, right? Except he is struggling without the Hero Lance, so he might want to do that later. Seeing as he's again struggling versus the Stage 4 Swordfighter and the stage 5 Armor. This is all assuming a L7 Fin by the way, going by your rate of 3 levels in Prologue + Chapter 1. Fin kills him in 3 hits of 18 damage, but has 74 hit on him, while this guy doubles him with strokes of 12 damage, killing Fin in three hits as well, and he has 98 hit. After two hits Fin has 12 HP left, so he's not being saved by Prayer here...and since the Swordfighter is faster Fin will only get to attack once before he's at death risk. And even if he wins he needs insane luck against the Stage 5 Armor (kills Fin in two hits of 20, Fin kills him in five hits of 12, and the Armor has 90 hit on him).
And I'm saying he is absolutely blowing cock against Elliot's group, because the Axe knights rape him with WTD and hey,
Then you have the lance knights which he does okay against I suppose...which leaves Elliot, who does 27 damage to his 34 HP and moves last. So basically axe knight or lance knight stab + Elliot stab equals dead Fin (10 Str, 12 or 14 Mt, 8.8+1 Def) and there's no Prayer to save you. Beowulf L9 Free Knight HP: 38.0 Str: 14.0 Skl: 11.0 Spd: 11.0 Def: 10.0 Res: 0.0 Luk: 3.0 Pursuit, Duel Steel Sword (10 Mt, 3 Wt) Atk: 24 Def: 10 AS: 8 Hit: 102 Avo: 19 Fin L7 Lance Knight HP: 36.2 Str: 11.8 Skl: 11.4 Spd: 11.8 Def: 9.8 ReS: 0.3 Luk: 11.0 Cuan-talk included Pursuit, Prayer, (Hero Continue) Hero Lance (15 Mt, 12 Wt) Atk: 26.8 Def: 9.8 AS: -0.2 Hit: 102.8 Avo: 10.6 Steel Lance (16 Mt, 12 Wt) Atk: 27.8 Def: 9.8 AS: -0.2 Hit: 102.8 Avo: 10.6 Slim Lance (12 Mt, 6 Wt) Atk: 23.8 Def: 9.8 AS: 5.8 Hit: 112.8 Avo: 22.6 Let's see, is Fin still one-rounding everything except Swordarmors, bosses (and the Cavalier/Paladin group you tried to leave out of the list, but I SEE EVERYTHING)? The answer is a clear and loud no. I draw out your splendid database of Chapter 2 enemies and I see tides have changed on the following enemies, assuming Hero Lance and therefore 27 Atk all the time: 39 HP/8 Def Arch Knight - 2x19, 1HP left 42 HP/9 Def Cavalier - 2x18, 6HP left 54 HP/14 Def Axe Armor - 4x13 HP, 2HP left 54 HP/14 Def Bow Armor, 4x13 HP, 2HP left 40 HP/8 Def Bow Fighter, 2x19, 2HP left 42 HP/8 Def Swordfighter, 2x19, 4HP left Both of these last two double Fin, btw. However, there is an unignorable 42% chance Fin has only 11 Str or less. See http://fea.fewiki.net/feastat.php?characte...n&game=4&stat=1 ? At L7, his chance to have 10 Str or lower (second table). For Fin this is 11 Str or lower because the convo with Cuan hasn't been factored in. Normally, I wouldn't fuss and just take the average. But this one point of Str has a pretty big impact on Fin's performance. With 26 Atk instead of 27, all of Beowolf's merc friends (37 HP/8 Def, 2x18, 1HP left) are added to the list. So what's left for Fin to one-round, provided he's even going to fight (which it seems you don't want him to more often than like 4 times)? The lance knights from Augustry, the axe knights (but he doesn't want to fight those, you said so yourself), the mountain thieves (he doesn't even meet those, plus he's liable to miss with their +40 avoid from WTA and village), the weaker armors, and then some retarded stuff like the Priest, the Firemages, Fury's squad and the Longarcs. That isn't as impressive as you put it before! And that's all the best weapon Fin gets, I think the numbers speak for themselves if you equip something else, which you already seemed to consider as a possibility. Personally, if you're not letting Fin fight much, I think Cuan getting the Hero Lance isn't even a bad idea. His BASE Str (16) allows him to one-round everything Fin doesn't quadrupple better, and then he has 50% Str growth and generally kicked more butt than Fin in the first chapters. L8 Cuan has 18 Str, combine with 15 Mt and you got 33 Attack to play with. That kills everything instantly, except bosses and armors. And since Cuan is fighting more than Fin because he only has this and Ch3 left to get as close to L30 as possible, the Hero Lance is put to better use in the hands of the Lenster prince. "but Silver Lance" Then Cuan will have to finish off Elliot, which may not happen because you are in a fucking rush and Cuan will want to get to Heirhein with Sigurd as soon as possible. And then it's 20 Mt and 20% Continue vs 15 Mt and auto-Continue, where 5 Mt makes dick difference in one-rounding whereas Hero Lance allows him to rape about everything. "but Cuan HAS Continue already" Yeah, and while it's an existant chance, ~20% < ~100%. And he's KOing a lot with it that Fin isn't, and more dangerous enemies too. I'm not afraid of slow ass armors that cannot move again, I'm more afraid of mounted units attacking one unit repeatedly until it goes down. Told ya I'd better do short things first.
Cuan and Lex have ranged too, unless you meant "hax ranged", but whatever. "Hey Fin can do this (which is great because EXP is a pain) but that would be stupid" does not strike me as anything relevant. I'll just take "level up a bit" as that average 3 levels per chapter.
Yeah, and L7 Fin has only 8 more Luk, which makes your numbers flawed. Beowulf now has a 9 avoid lead against bow and magic users, and the Atk difference is like...2. And against bow users, Beowulf can trigger Duel whereas Fin is never doing more than in the examples above where he leaves them alive, and these bow users are also doubling Fin and not Beowulf. He also has 39 avoid vs -10.6 makes a massive 49.6 avoid lead against axe users, and there's some axe armors and axe knights among the enemies and this is actually a significant difference. Against lances, Fin has...3.6 more avoid. Watch out enemies, once in 33 or so battles Fin will dodge when Beowulf will not! So they have about equal Atk, Beowulf wins somewhere massively in avoid, by a small amount against others and then Fin wins by an even smaller amount against the last kind. And then Beowulf has 1.8 more HP and 0.2 more Def and has been labeled for "having bad durability" before by you. Suddendly Fin doesn't look like so much win anymore, if he even does - he wins in damage against the armors he can quadrupple if he even has the Hero Lance, and then he is getting fucked against axearmors. If Fin is using Slim, he actually has LESS attack than Beowulf in trade for leading by...lol 3.6 avoid again against bows/magic. As for Charge activating when Beowulf isn't countering, I decided to run a little test. I hacked into FE4 with FE4Edit, and made Sigurd into a Paladin with a bunch of Spd and 80HP. Then I gave Iron Axe 1~2 range and 30 Wt, giving Charge a circa 83% chance of activating. Then I just pitted him against a bunch of axefighters in the Prologue and watched as they swung their axe at the air and hit them. But they wouldn't ever attack more than once however often I pressed end turn, so it's pretty safe to say Charge only works when you're (counter)attacking. This isn't FE5 where you can use this to whine at Dagda, sorry! Prayer is so unreliable it isn't even funny. It's also going to be useless most of the time because risking Fin at close-to-death range is begging to get fucked over.
Uh, Fin is doubling more reliably than Beowulf despite having 8 less AS with Steel/Hero Lance, and still 2 less with Slim Lance? Beowulf is doubling everything except Voltz, a handful of Swordfighters and lolFury in Ch2. Also, to resort to something very basic: having Duel > not having Duel. Fin without the Hero Lance is not going to attack more than twice, and that's against enemies Beowulf is most likely to D-d-d-d-d-Duel.
And Fin isn't one rounding anything in Prologue and Ch1, and is only one-rounding if he gets the Hero Lance Cuan is using in a much more awesome way, and then a lot of the things he one-rounds are retarded (Longarcs, Priest) or have WTA against him (axeknights, axe armors). Over Beowulf, the only non-retarded things he one-rounds are Lanceknights, the weaker Bow/Lance Armors and all of the two Duke Knights. And most Lanceknights are in an army he's not fighting according to you, and the same goes to the armors. Well, Beowulf doesn't need to last-hit as much since he has some enemies to WTA against in this chapter as well as some he is weapon-neutral against (and those he doubles, unlike Fin who didn't double the Hunters "back in the day"). Yeah, in other words, Beowulf is leveling up faster than Fin in Gen 1, which is what the whole debate is about. You argue that it's better for the whole ranking aspect to let Fin level slowly, then you shall suffer the consequences in Gen 1.
Yeah, I agree, Fin shouldn't kill too much. All the better so Beowulf actually has and keeps a level lead. Hey, if Fin is last hitting, what does he need a Javelin for? And Javelin also ruins his ability to double, say, L10 Axefighters with non-Hand Axes.
But in the end the actual levelups that Fin will have done is 29, whereas for Beowulf it's 21...but then again, for the first gen, which we're concerned about, Fin is only gaining 12. What Fin does in the second generation is irrelevant. Oh, and if you let him sit on a castle at L30 and he's attacked, he's :wasting: EXP. If he's not attacked, then him sitting there is a pretty big waste of a unit. Loze/loze
Would have agreed, but then Fin is gaining only 3 levels per chapter so his win is becoming very, very contestable. And Beowulf wants the Iron Cutter the most...since you seem to raise Alec as the main example later on against the pegs, I'll adress him here for a bit longer. Alec can use an Iron Lance and do more than Beowulf ever could with a Steel Sword if he doesn't do Duel, and that also is better for no WTD against the lance armors. Or Alec could just fight something else besides Armors...he can use the Horseslayer against those Lance knights in the west, he can use it against the bow knights in the north or just fight well there.
Yeah, Fin shouldn't be fighting them, but then again you were the one who continued on it. But still always having to be healed twice...blegh. And disagreeing with yourself is pretty blegh too.
Steel Lance Fin certainly is not > everything, if you meant that, be it your units or enemy units. Doesn't one round anything except shit like Longarcs in Ch2, lol. Whoever killed Shagaal can sell it in the Pawn Shop of Silvail, and then Beowulf can buy it in Madino. Not that hard.
And it was against the pirates anyway which you conceded for Fin whereas Beowulf still does well against them. "Underleveled Fin" what...by your logic of 3 levels per chapter for Fin, he should be L13 right now. I've handled Ch2, so here's Ch3. Fin L13 Lance Knight HP: 40.4 Str: 16.6 Skl: 13.8 Spd: 13.6 Def: 11.6 Luk: 14.0 Includes both the Cuan talk and the +3 Str and +1 Def villages. Pursuit, Prayer Slim Lance Atk: 28.6 Def: 11.6 AS: 7.6 Hit: 117.6 Avo: 29.2 Beowulf L14 Free Knight HP: 42.0 Str: 16.0 Skl: 13.0 Spd: 12.5 Def: 11.5 Luk: 4.0 Pursuit, Charge Steel Sword Atk: 26.0 Def: 11.5 AS: 9.5 Hit: 106 Avo: 23 And that's Beowulf at his normal rate at the beginning of this chapter (5 and a quarer per chapter, so L9+5 = 14) while Fin at the end (1 + 3 for Prol, + 3 for Ch1, + 3 for Ch2, + 3 for Ch3 makes 14). But but but! Beowulf is going to stand next to Lachesis a lot as opposed to Fin who is usually going somewhere else, increasing Beowulf's avoid to 33 thanks to Charisma, so he's on par. And if Lachesis is already in love with him, that's another +10 hit/+10 avoid for Beowulf. Takes 350 love points with 7 per turn, so 50 turns in about two chapters. Given that we're averaging about 35 turns per chapter and that both 2 and 3 are extremely long, this is not unlikely to happen at all.
Which FE4 are you playing? These armors charge from the start and Beowulf can hit-n-run them if he needs to (though he doesn't, since as you said, he can go north and kick butt there)  With Lachesis next to him in a forest (innuedo) that's 53 avoid in a forest. These Javelin-losers have 24 Atk, so they do 13 damage if they hit him, which is 16 (Skl) + 60 (Javelin hit) - 53 (avoid) = 23% of the time. He can take 3 hits, so he'd die in like 12 rounds. And Lachesis is healing him every time, so not happening. The General has 100 hit so about 50/50 chance to hit him, and with his 34 Atk does 23 damage. Which means that even if the General hits him, he only dies if two out of four Javelin guys hit him. But since the General isn't getting to him before he fucked one of these Javeliners over, naganna happen. Beowulf can take his chances against this one, or he can just take the safe route and go up north. Not an entirely relevant fight, but not one where Beowulf is going to roll over and die. Duel is not activating other than when Beowulf is hitting, as I proved.
Yeah, we've been over that and concluded that Fin is not fighting those. Especially since the +1 Def village is near Silvail, so if he wants that he's never getting there. I am not arguing RNG screwage. You were assuming Fin had exactly his average stats in order for the pirates to hit him so that he would land somewhere between 1 and 10 HP so he gets Prayer. However, if he has other (could be lower, but it also applies when higher) HP/Def, he could miss out on it because every pirate is doing another amount of damage. Not that Fin is at the level you proposed him (19), but rather at 14, making your comparison even more moot.
But Beowulf has more avoid against Wind Mages than Fin has against axe users. And I didn't see Fin countering Hunters and Hand Axe Axefighters without equipping "his" Javelin, in which case he just gets raped more by axe users. If Fin isn't fighting then he's not really helping tactics a lot though, which is about as annoying as EXP. And Fin is liable to dying early on if you don't guard him, so he's not helping that "combat" (more like survival) rating either. Cuvuli, the Bishop with the Sleep Staff, has 16 Mag. The condition for hitting with the Sleep Staff is simple: have more Mag than the target has Res. Let's see who has 17 or more Res at this point. If a unit is not listed, then he has less than 17 Res even at L30. Claude Fury (averages 16.4 at L30, so very unlikely) Levin (averages 16.4 at L30, so very unlikely) Tiltyu (averages 16.7 at L30, so even more unlikely because she came at L3 at the end of Ch3) So yeah, Beowulf is a target for the Sleep Staff. So are Sigurd, Alec, Noish, Ardan, Ayra, Lachesis, Azel, Brigid, Jamka, Aideen, Dew, Fury, Levin, Holyn, Sylvia and whoever I forgot. Better off just hurting and leaving alive one of the Wind Mages, because Cuvuli prefers healing one of his minions over putting someone to sleep.
Deetva's Peg Knights 53/12/1/12/17/0/10/8, Slim Lance, Slim Sword, 11 (16 with Slim Sword) (9) Slim Lance Pegasi have 22 avoid. Using calculations from Serene's... Alec L22 Paladin Pursuit, Awareness Wing Clipper HP: 46.0 Atk: 23.0 Def: 16.0 AS: 14.0 Hit: 110.0 Avoid: 38.0 Alec does 36 damage per hit with Wing Clipper, and doubles if they have Slim Lance. He has 68 hit on them (110 hit - 22 avoid - 20 WTD). In case Deetva is giving Leadership, he has 48 hit. Beowulf L21 Free Knight Pursuit, Charge, Continue Wing Clipper / Silver Blade HP: 47.6 Atk: 25.8 / 39.8 Def: 15.6 AS: 15.6 / 14.6 Hit: 119.6 / 109.6 Avoid: 36.6 Beowulf does 43 damage per hit with Wing Clipper, and doubles if they have Slim Lance. He has 77.6 hit on them (119.6 hit - 22 avoid - 20 WTD). In case Deetva is giving Leadership, he has 57.6 hit. Beowulf does 29.8 damage per hit with Silver Broadsword, and doubles if they have Slim Lance. He has 67.6 hit on them (109.6 hit - 22 avoid - 20 WTD). In case Deetva is giving Leadership, he has 47.6 hit. So, Alec is having pretty shitty hit on them when they have their lance equipped. If they got Slim Sword equipped he has no chance of one-rounding at all. Beowulf has 10 more hit on them, and if he misses or doesn't double he's got other skills to try some more, whereas Alec has no such option. And that's without factoring in that Lachesis is there, who gives +20 hit/avoid to Beowulf. Lachesis is more often near Beowolf than Alec, but even if she's standing near both Alec only receives +10/+10 since she's Beowolf's bitch and not Alec's (or Fin's for that matter). This however you twist or turn it widens the gap even more. And then there's Deetva herself. Boss: Deetva *** - Falcoknight L21, 61/13/9/16/21/0/12/14, Silver Sword, Prayer Ring, 18 Neither of our horsemen is Pursuiting. Alec with Wing Clipper is therefore doing 46 (23 Mt * 2) - 12 (def) = 34 maximum. Beowulf is doing 51.6 (25.8 Mt * 2) - 12 = 39.6 per hit, and has a 35% chance of activating Continue and one-rounding that bitch. And also a 23.8 (MaxHP/2) + 15.6 (AS) - 18 (enemy AS) = 39.4 - 18 = 21.4% chance of triggering Charge. Beowulf's chance of not-one rounding Deetva is 65% * 78.6% = 51.09%. Not factoring in that Lachesis can give him a Lover critical. Alec's chance of not-one rounding Deetva is 100%. Beowulf does more damage per blow, has a chance of one-rounding her, and has more accuracy with the Wing Clipper than Alec does. At least if Alec shifts to Steel Lance he has WTA over Deetva. Alec is Beowulf's main competition for the Wing Clipper. Beowulf > Alec at Wing Clippering, therefore Beowulf gets the Wing Clipper.
You did say that. I'll quote it again.
Also, Fin has 27.8 Atk at L7 in Ch2, while Beowulf has 24 at recruitment level. Againt a 13 Def armor that means Fin is doing 29.6, while Beowulf is doing 22. But Beowulf is doubling Swordarmors (either 12 or 14 Def) whereas Fin is not, so Beowulf is doing 24 or 20, while Fin is doing 15.8 or 13.8. So a 7 dmg advantage for Fin against, say, Lancearmors, but 7 or 9 advantage for Beowulf on Swordarmors, and against Axearmors Beowulf is better defensively due to that 30+ avoid lead, and Beowulf also has a chance to trigger Duel against the slow ass Armors.
Holyn can use a Steel Blade, though he comes with an Iron Blade anyway and does really good with that too. That still leaves Beo with the Silver Blade. Fin doesn't one-round anything particulary interesting with his Steel Lance, but that's okay since he's not helping your army against enemies anyway since he "doesn't need the EXP". Depending on how much you used Sigurd, he can be running around with 50 kills on his Silver Sword already. He doesn't need to one-round much anyway, because he's not a unit that requires leveling anymore. I'd rather let the Sigurd that you assumed to be L25 in Ch4 set up some kills for units that have just promoted or still have to, like Lachesis, Levin, yeah Beowulf, Fury, or perhaps you wanna get in some major EXP by letting Tiltyu finish off something. Sigurd fights plenty to hit L30 by the end of this generation, especially since he's going to do a huge portion of the fighting against Reptor if he hasn't gained enough by Tyrfinging through Ch5 anyway.
Yeah Sherlock, it was about Ch4, where Beowulf is owning and Fin is not helping at all. Lol.
It seems that the times axefighters are there Beowulf is quite good at fucking them up, and seeing as they are either burning down villages or capturing civilians I would say doing so faster is a good thing. A better thing than not being there. The enemies that Fin is convincingly better against in Ch2 and Ch3 are like, pretty rare. Steel Lance Fin is one rounding Lanceknights, Longarcs and maybe some other uninteresting things. Slim Lance even less. Hero Lance is okay, but not as "ownage" as you presented it earlier and Cuan is better at Hero Lancing anyway.
Beowulf fucks over Peg Knights a lot better than Alec with the Wing Clipper. He hits more often (a lot more often if Lachesis is near, which she is), he attacks more often thanks to his skills in case he misses, he can one-round the boss. You gave Alec a huge level lead anyway, why would you want him to kill Pegasus knights? He's worse at it and gains less EXP.
Like who? Ayra can do it with her Hero Sword, but Steel Blade Holyn needs Moonlight Hit to do it, Sigurd just falls short at L25, Fury won't make it, Jamka needs skills to trigger just like Beowulf (and is taking the harder-to-dodge Steel Bow counters), etc. Beowulf is better than a handful of your good units at these Warriors, and some are just as good as he is.
Or you could give him an Iron/Slim Sword which nobody needs at this point, and is good enough to prevent Lamia doubling him. Point is, Lamia only doubles him if you're dumb. Or think you need one of these weak swords on someone else. Sigurd has to fight less at this point because he was always in the thick of the action. He's likely to fight bosses because if he can kill a boss he can seize that turn. He has plenty of EXP and is going to be L30 anyway, and for that he only needs his Silver Sword. Holyn is doubling everything and after he's promoted he basically triggers Moonlight once 50% of the time which results into a one-round. Kill counts is done per weapon. If Beowulf kills something with Silver Blade, it gets +1. If Holyn does it, it gets +1. I don't know how this affects Beowulf using it at all. Ignoring the weapon deal (which has been touched plenty now) Beo makes the team weaker in the same sense that Sigurd or Ayra does - they need their share of EXP, but it's hardly noticable in the end, except that at the end of Ch5 not using Beowulf results into 21 less level-ups on your rank than when you use Beowulf. That more than compensates for whatever amount of levels you would've gotten if Beowulf wasn't there, because nearly all of the time he's gaining more EXP than your other fighting units. As far as 1st Gen is concerned, Fin gains 12 level ups and Beowulf gains 21. The gap between Beowulf's and Fin's fighting when Fin would be winning has been proven to be small, while when Beowulf is there and Fin isn't, Beowulf is kicking butt with weapons he deserves to have. And Beowulf actively taking part in fighting helps more than Fin weakening with Javelin or Slim Lance or whatever weapon he has.
Yaya, except Fin is never using his Hero Lance against magic users, plus this is about Ch4 Thunder Mages which Fin cannot fight because he's running away like a pussy. Beowulf's 38% > 0% anyway.
Beowulf is using a Silver Blade, a Wing Clipper and an Iron Cutter, plus something like an Iron Sword which nobody needs. That leaves two Iron Blades, a Steel Blade, the Prayer Sword, the Defense Sword, the Thunder Sword, the Wind Sword, the Earth Sword, two Silver Swords and a Hero Sword. Give Ayra Hero Sword. Give Holyn Steel Blade. Give Sigurd Silver Sword. Give Lachesis a Hero Axe, and if you want her to fight these Swordguys, she can use her Earth Sword. Then, for mattering sword users, you've got Alec, Fury and perhaps Noish and lolDew/Ardan. Fury can use a Silver Sword if she's promoted, which shouldn't be much of a problem by now. Otherwise she can use the Prayer Sword and Silver Lance or something, and snipe with Javelin throws. That means promoted Noish can get the Hero Lance, and if Noish isn't promoted then he doesn't have anything better than Steel Sword to use. If Noish isn't promoted Alec can use the Hero Lance since he IS promoted. Then there's the Defender Sword and these Magic swords left to divide among those who want them. What's the problem?
What if Cuan doesn't kill Elliot? He and Sigurd arrive there first, and Cuan is better to deal earlier blows than Sigurd due to Sigurd having WTD. But fine, give Fin the Steel Lance and watch him still fail to one-round anything spectacular. Yeah, less EXP for Fin, and less Fin helping the team in weakening bosses, or killing them so Sigurd can seize and the rest can move on. Thanks. His situation only got worse compared to how you used to present it, like he doesn't even one-round the Duke Knights anymore without his precious Hero Lance. And again, at this point Fin has like 3-4 more Atk than Beowulf, and Beowulf has higher AS, and against lancers Fin has like a 3.6 avoid lead whereas against everything else Beowulf is leading in avoid, and he also has a very slight HP/Def lead. So if Fin is doing better than Beowulf here it's by a (rather short) toenail length.
I'm sick of swordhogarguing but once more: the "good" swordusers (Sigurd, Ayra, Holyn I believe are your main arguments) are doing really fucking well without these weapons, whereas the worse ones (I believe Alec is your favourite) are not doing as well as Beowulf is. And Beowulf needs EXP more badly than these others do due to level leads, so he is statistically the best one to use them. These extra attacks only make Beowulf do more damage with these weapons than others can do with them, which matters against things like Deetva and Generals in Ch5. Fin wants this one weapon while Cuan wants it more because Cuan has 2 chapters left to gain EXP whereas Fin has 5 and Fin isn't even fighting things other than for the purpose of weakening, as you admitted. And then Fury joins and also has good reasons for using it.
The first three have a level lead on Beowulf, which is one reason for him to be killing things with these weapons. Then Holyn has Moonlight hit with extremely high activation, Sigurd has Critical if he has 50 kills on his Silver Sword and can also use a Steel Lance against slow enemies. More multihit skills = more chances to get autocrit or to launch that 40+ atk on something = more damage = better results.
Then let Levin and Sigurd stand in front of him so Reptor cannot reach Beowulf.
Then Sigurd is sloooow too, and Leptor is slooow as well (like 1 walking range, then 1-2 range, meaning 3 range). Not very difficult to keep Beowulf out of that and still get him kills, because Reptor also brings underlings that move faster through the desert: 2 Forrests, 2 Snipers, a High Priest and 4 Thunder Mages.
Wait. So these Knight Killers had 31 hit on him? Let's decrease that to 11 because Lachesis gives Charisma and Lover bonus. Which means his chance of dodging them all is about 22%. Except the Lenster army tends to kill one, sometimes two on average, increasing it to 25%. And then Beo also survives one hit, coming nearer to 30%, etc. The chance the boss hits him twice in a row (i.e. does enough to 2HKO) is 34% now by the way. But whatever, Beowulf is making fun of Reptor's army anyway.
60 evade from 30 Spd (which Levin has after he promotes), then 40 more because he gets +20 Spd from Holsety, then 10 more from 10+ Luk makes it 110. Then Sigurd is there and compensates the avoid loss of the desert with his leadership. Armors have 102 hit with Steel Lance/Steel Bow, 82 with Javelin. They're going to stall. Forrests have 60 hit with Silver Blade, but 18 Skl so 96. They're going to stall. Snipers have 116 hit, so they might attack him. High Priest won't attack. Thunder Mage has 80 hit + 30 from Skl so 110. Except they have WTD against Wind, so they're going to stall. Generals have 80 hit + 24 from Skl so 104, so they're going to stall. Then Reptor comes in with 90 + 72 = 162 hit from Thor Hammer. If he dies to Levin now, you miss a lot of EXP. If he doesn't die from either not attacking or not getting killed in combat, then you'll want to kill as many units there as you can before you have to kill Reptor. Levin absolutely dominates the arena even without Pursuit and gains levels really quickly. He's also the one that kills all these mountain thieves in Ch2. He's also a great candidate for the Pursuit Ring, basically the only one who uses it even remotely as well is Noish. And Levin is also a very likely candidate for the Bargain Ring since he and Sylvia are most near it, which means Pursuit Ring costs less to buy every now and then, combined with the gold he gets from villages there and the arena. He only needs 6 levels per chapter, and a lot of that can come from the arena and Holsety spam. Levin is likely to make L30 before Reptor's army.
Except Brigid starts with 40 HP/9 Res and Reptor has 51 Atk (21 Mag + 30 Mt). So she needs 2 HP level-ups to make that, which Brigid averages with just 3 level ups thanks to 90% growth. I don't think you'll have trouble getting that on an Ichival user, especially considering she has to defend herself against pirates when she joins. Heck, Holyn can take a hit on average if he's just promoted (20*, 48.8 HP, 4.4 Res). Ayra can do it at L26 (47.4 HP, 5.1 Res). Claude ALWAYS can do it (34 HP and 20 Res at base). Fury can do it at L20 (39.5 HP/15.4 Res). Jamka can do it at L21 (49.5 HP/3.7 Res). You have a lot of units who can take a Thor Hammer whack which Beowulf can hide behind.
It's not a question of "need more". He does more damage with them - it's more common that Alec fails to one-round with autocrit than Beowulf. Holyn's offense is not "nuked". How do you nuke someone's offense if he still gets to use a Steel Blade and have a guaranteed one-round with Moonlight Hit a lot whenever his 37.4 at L20* power isn't enough? Why'd you let Fury fight armors again when there's always a Mage to pick off in Ch4 or Ch5, or when there's mountain thieves to kill when they're burning down villages, again in both chapters? Fury is like the last person I'd give the Iron Cutter to.
Beowulf rapes both of these squads anyway. And since Fin is hardly winning anything worthwhile against even lance users in Ch2 and Ch3 if he even is (Beowulf wins in offense against anything that the Cutter or Clipper crits), and in Ch4 and Ch5 he is not winning at all since he is not there. Ch3: Eltho's squad uses Javelins from distance, yes, but up close they have Steel Swords, and Beowulf is doubling them while Fin is not. There's also axearmors up north, and of course villagepilfering. Ch2: Yeah ok. Then again I already explained that Fin's win against lancers is 3.6 avoid, while Beowulf's win against axers is like 30+ avoid, plus even higher chance for Duel. Ch5: He's not facing Knight Killer squad, or if he is they should be fucked up quickly anyway because Sigurd, Alec, Azel, Lachesis and any other mounted unit gets raped by them as well. And yes, Beowulf owns all of these Dozel troops, including the Generals next to Langobart.
And why would Sigurd try to fuck up armors when he only needs 4 levels per chapter on average and gains much more than that in the first few chapters because he is such a goddamn rapist that kills bosses for quicker seizes? Alec got a level lead on Beowulf as well and cannot even one-round any of the Generals in Ch4 and Ch5. (18 Str + 5 Mt) *2 Crit = 46, L20 Generals have 60HP/18 Def. In the meantime Beowulf has just a pinch more Str so he can Pursuit, and even if Great Shield activates he will Continue or Charge them to death. Holyn has a massive level lead as well because he just rules the arena every chapter, and with his capped Skl and Moonlight hit triggering all the time he doesn't need a cutter.
Why has your Sigurd grown 20 levels over the course of 5 whole chapters when he fights bosses for quicker seizes? More importantly, why is he fighting these when he should be repairing the Tyrfing? Or why do you want him to gain more levels when he has nearly guaranteed dibs (only shared with Levin) on a lot of Reptor's army, killing Langobart, killing Reptor, and all of Phinora castle (fucking Sleep Priests).
That's great, pick it off with Tiltyu or Noish or someone else for EXP++. Or if Holyn was just one level higher he'd one-round it anyway.
|
|
|
|
| +Ema Skye | Oct 7 2007, 12:00 AM Post #8 |
|
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
|
tl;dr *randomly votes* |
|
MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH
| |
|
|
|
| Mekkah | Oct 8 2007, 03:34 AM Post #9 |
|
I raped the character limit so here's the rest of my post
Alec with Hero Lance has 18 + 15 = 32 Atk, 32-15 def = 17 damage. 17x4 = 54 damage. As a bonus, 20 more avoid.
Pretty sure.
Still not helping your army killing things then.
It's by far the hardest part, and the longest walk from castle to castle while you have to do it in 11 turns for the Bargain Ring. But that's ok, Fin doesn't have a noticable advantage in Ch2 over Beowulf anyway.
Don't get me into this again.
EXP-wise: nearly everyone is, and at least they are killing things which is not bad Weapon-wise: no, Beowulf is the best user of these swords
No, he'd likely be using Hero Lance. Or you just use someone else against Armors, someone who gains more EXP out of the deal. Someone who is actually passing his stats to someone in the second gen as opposed to someone who ends up having no kids. Yeah, let's look at the second gen in a first gen debate. @_@ Still, Delmud and Nanna exist and are as good as they are thanks to Beowulf, and together they are worth a hell lot more than Fin simply because there's two of them and they're excellent units in their own right and give Charisma off and all.
Yeah, except we were talking about "having broken stats for the first generation" and you switch to Fin helping EXP rank by not killing things on the battlefield, which results him in not helping your army finish things up faster. Great trade. Fin, for the purposes of the first generation, is in only 3 arena's (1, 2 and 3) and gets to L14 (3 levels per chapter), we're not looking at second gen. Fin is not everywhere, or if he is, so is Beowulf. Phew, I suppose that wraps up the actual gameplay part. Short but sweet summary: - Fin exists in Prologue, 1 and first part of 2 before Beowulf. What he does according to our Fin supporter is arena'ing and dicking around, maybe stealing a few kills since he cannot do that on his own without taking huge damage in 0 and 1. - Then Beowulf joins and his statistical wins over Fin vs axe users are grand, whereas Fin's wins against lance users are very slight (we're talking 3.6 avoid AGAINST 1.8 HP and 0.2 Def or something) and then Beowulf is winning against bow/magic. - Fin proceeds to gain 3 levels per chapter whereas Beowulf is speedleveling because you'll want him to be awesome in Ch4. - Beowulf gets the Iron Cutter (start Ch3)/Wing Clipper (end Ch3)/Silver Blade (begin Ch4) because he's the best user of these, and he does awesome damage with them. Fin does not exist anymore, he's running off, fully satisfied with the knowledge that he helped your team to 13 level ups, not killing anything on the field and therefore not helping for your turn limit. And he sucked in Ch0 and Ch1, and Cuan is outperforming as a Hero Lance user.
Beowulf/Lachesis is predestined at least, but a little more than that since Beowulf TELLS Lachesis to go to Fin. And then both Delmud and Felgus are Beowolf's sons so they can use the Beo Sword, rendering it not irrelevant. Does Deu tell Lachesis to go somewhere safe in Ch5? I think not. Cuan's convo in Ch1 still smells of innuedo, and you still didn't counter my point that Beowulf basically gives Lachesis to Fin. He's a pimp, he can afford to lose a girl. The princess of Nodion is not dumping him, he dumps the princess.
No, they didn't come from Beowulf's fail, because Beowulf does not fail. Delmud is, in fact, Beowulf's son always, even if Lachesis ends up in bed with Ardan. |
|
|
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| « Previous Topic · Debates · Next Topic » |
2:03 PM Nov 8
