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| Paperblade vs Inui | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 13 2007, 09:30 PM (376 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Oct 13 2007, 09:30 PM Post #1 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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this should be hot |
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| Paperblade | Oct 16 2007, 07:43 PM Post #2 |
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Paperblade posting on time, oh noez. Fin vs. Jamka kk Fin's helping the team by letting them have EXP but still giving +29 levels onto the EXP rank because of his hax access to Arenas, and he has the potential to one round basically every generic in Chapter 2+3 on his turn, which is sex for Combat Rank (or you can attach him to Lachesis at the hip to get better kids, which still works because honestly, he needs minimal combat EXP for a dude that joins at Level 1 unit without Elite, Fin's just uber versatile) Meanwhile, Jamka is hurting Combat whenever he doesn't counter, although he is pretty good at Combat (although Hero Lance Fin is about as good), but the fact that he can activate Charge when he can't even attack sucks, and he's not helping EXP rank as much. Fin also has high Move, which makes him more useful for Tactics, and in Gen 2 he can just sit at Castles and defend them because he hardly needs EXP, which helps with those ranks involved. |
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| +Ema Skye | Oct 19 2007, 01:54 PM Post #3 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Inui posting on the last day, oh noez.
It's a shame this has little relevance to first generation rankings. Jamuka is one of those units that easily gets to level 30 since he can clear every arena he encounters and kills practically everything he fights. Any benefit to the Experience rank that Fin has comes only from his starting at a lower level than Jamuka, since Jamuka can get tons of experience from the arena that doesn't take experience from anyone else. Having Fin follow Lachesis forever means Fin isn't doing much since he has to be next to her almost the entire time he's there in order for this pairing to happen. Jamuka can give you good children with Brigid or Edain without having to do something like this. Not that any of this matters...
Jamuka shouldn't be getting attacked on the enemy phase except by other bow users and magic units that have to attack him at range. Even if he is attacked a few times on the enemy phase, the damage to the Combat rank is extremely minimal compared to how well he does on his turn. He's one of the few units that can easily one-round sturdy armour knights and bosses early on. And the beauty of it is that he doesn't take a counter. Ayra could one-round an armour knight, but she takes a counter, and her poor defenses will make her get raped. Her crappy LUK makes her Evd very unreliable against lances and unreliable against swords.
Yeah, he's got a horsey and can move around a lot. Can't deny that. Jamuka, however, is better at fighting. Fin can move around all he wants, but he's not killing things better than Jamuka is. Soz, onto some actual negatives about Fin... He has a 0% chance of one-rounding things until he gets the Hero Lance. He has almost constant WTDA and no ranged attacks until you get him a Javelin. He relies on Prayer to have any durability at all, which isn't good compared to Jamuka simply relying on his good stats and not taking counters. Since Fin is using his movement to rush forward for Tactics, he's less durable because he has to fight on the enemy phase, and when he enters combat he's not one-rounding unless he has the Hero Lance. Fin doesn't wtfraep arenas like Jamuka, so he has to fight more in the actual game to gain levels, so he takes more experience from others even with his generation two usage. I don't see why you say this is some advantage anyways. Jamuka can just take a larger amount of experience from the first generation units and Fin can take a smaller amount from both generations, and they're both taking the same amount. Let's toss out some numbers. Level 1 Lance Knight HP: 32 - 70% STR: 9 - 30% +5 MAG: 0 - 5% SKL: 8 - 40% +1 SPD: 10 - 30% +1 LUK: 8 - 50% DEF: 7 - 30% +2 RES: 0 - 5% +3 MOV: 8 Pursuit, Prayer Iron Lance: lol crap and super heavy ftl Fin joins before Jamuka, but he's not turning any heads when he joins. Almost every enemy in the first two chapters gets WTA against him, which is -20 Evd and -20 Hit for him. That's terrible when it's basically against everyone. He has Prayer, but that's not guaranteed, especially with the constant WTDA. He has a horse and Pursuit, and that's about it. He joins with a crappy weapon, even. When Jamuka joins, he's wtfmassiveraep. Level 6 Archer HP: 36 - 90% STR: 11 - 50% +5 MAG: 0 - 0% SKL: 14 - 10% +2 SPD: 14 - 30% +2 LUK: 4 - 40% DEF: 9 - 30% +2 RES: 0 - 5% +3 MOV: 6 Killer Bow: 14 Mt, 100 Hit, 3 Wt Pursuit: Attack twice if his Atk Spd > enemy Atk Spd, which is almost always given his good SPD stat and lightweight Killer Bow. He's way faster than almost every enemy ever, so he should always be doubling things. Continue: Attack twice in a row at Atk Spd + 20% activation. So, it starts off at 31% and ends up at 40%. Duel: Activates 2~20 rounds of combat when HP is above or equal to 25 at unit's Atk Spd - enemy's Atk Spd + HP/2 % chance. Critical: Attack with a critical at SKL = % chance. Starts off at 14% and ends up at 18%. He attacks twice pretty much every time, and has three skills stacked on top of both of those hits. Even against the tanky armour knights of Chapter 2, he'll have a very high shot at one-rounding them. Two shots for Critical, Continue, and Duel all stacked up. H4x. His offense is ridiculous. He has a very terrible SKL growth, but a very good base and a very accurate weapon. Jamuka's offense >>>>>>>>>>>> Fin's. Fin can be like...level 10 and still lose. Also, durability. Fin is often reduced to low HP and relies on Prayer to survive, while Jamuka just has tons and tons more Evd from using a way lighter weapon and having much more SPD and almost never taking counters. Jamuka also beats Fin in HP by a decent amount. 0.5 moar when each at level 6, and then Jamuka's 20% superior growth will kick in and make him win by more and more as the game progresses. Lucky for Fin, he lolleaves before the HP gap gets big. Also, DEF. Fin loses that by 0.5 consistently. Oh, Fin gets +1 from a conversation with Cuan, but still loses in HP. So, now he wins DEF by 0.5 consistently. He has absolutely no concrete durability win, and has tons less Evd. He relies completely on Prayer compared to Jamuka, who just relies on his being amazing. The first generation is much nicer to unmounted units except for Chapter 2, but his being mounted doesn't matter at all in Chapter 1 and actually gives him less movement when Jamuka joins since everyone is in forests. Chapter 2 isn't kind to unmounted units, but Jamuka gains levels from raping two arenas anyways. Chapter 3 is nicer to foot units, and he's definitely doing better as usual. Jamuka's dropping bombs on everyone while Fin is just poking them with a twig. http://eaichu250.superbusnet.com/feartwork...ans/fe3-008.jpg Jamuka looks really bad-ass. He has no problems killing anyone, and his temper and his power back that up. He'll fire a missle at you and you'll just instantly die. Or he'll fire like twenty missles thanks to his skills, actually. Jamuka is royalty, and since his jerk brothers and ancient father all die in Chapter 2, he becomes the King of Verdane. Fin is a commoner. Point for Jamuka. Fin is fit for shining Jamuka's boots and cleaning his bow. |
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| Paperblade | Oct 25 2007, 12:31 AM Post #4 |
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Paperblade posting super late.
Little relevance to first gen rankings? There's no such thing as "First Gen" or "Second Gen" rankings, just an overall FE4 ranking, and Fin is win for the most difficult one, EXP. Fin gets access to 8 Arenas, Jamka gets 4 (assuming you have Edain Warp or Ethlin Return in Chapter 1). That's DOUBLE the access, and getting 29 levels total vs. 24. And if Jamka is getting "tons of EXP" from 4 Arenas, then Fin is getting even more from 8.
I think you missed the part where Fin doesn't NEED to be doing much because of his ridiculous access to EXP. He's in 9 chapters and gets 8 Arenas, he can afford to miss 2 chapters to get that pairing, because 7 chapters and 8 arenas is still more than any other character in the game.
I don't see how Ayra is relevant to this discussion, and I like how you ignored Javelin users (of which about 66% of the Lance Armors in Chapter 2 are), Axe Armors (5 in Chapter 2 compared to 6 Sword Armors), and Bow Armors (admittedly rare, at only 3). Also, Fin has the potential to one round them all with the Hero Lance at a 100% rate (which is more than Jamka can say, because even with all his hax skills, there's still a decent chance he won't Crit/Charge/Continue), although this is assuming we aren't going for his Lachesis pairing. . . But like I said, he really doesn't need to be, because he's already haxxing EXP Rank, which is really a more difficult rank to get. And Big Shield with 15+ Defense and 55+HP >>> Jamka's chances of one rounding Jamka at 16 has 15 Skill and 30 Attack with 14AS, meaning 34% Continue and 15% Crit. 39% chance of Charge against the lowest level General in Chapter 2, dealing 14 damage a hit, which is a 4HKO. So let's see, 100% Hit rate. . . Oh, and the boss has a 14% Big Shield chance. It doesn't seem very reliable. Is there a chance? Yes. Well he likely bring the boss to half or below? Yes. Does this matter? Not really, since most bosses can be 2HKO'd anyway.
Level 5 Fin with a Hero Lance 4HKOs and doubles (and with Continue, that means 4 hits) any Armor except for the Level 14 Axe/Bow Armors at Anphony and the Sword Armors. 10.2 Strength + 1 from Cuan talk + 15 Might frm Hero Lance is 27.2 Attack, truncate to 27. The Level 14 Sword Armors are before he gets the Lance and he can't double anyway because Swords are hax. So the second highest is Level 10, with 54HP and 13 Armor. 27-13 is 14, 14*4 is 56. Pew pew, Fin wins. At Level 10 he can one round the Level 14s. 100% of the time. Even on enemy phase (except for the 3 Bow Armors at Anphony).
Fin hardly needs the EXP, and he's doing minimal fighting because it's not necessary for him to be doing so, since he still owns 3/4 of Chapter 2 with minimal EXP. Also, there's a Javelin that sells in Chapter 1 IIRC, and Axe-user Avoid sucks so bad he could probably use it effectively (most have about -20 Avoid, which compensates for WTD)
Well, Lance Armors do exactly enough damage to knock him to 1HP, which makes him basically invincible for a turn, which then lets him run back to Edain or something (she wants the EXP anyway and probably isn't in range). Is he losing out on EXP? Yeah. Does it matter? Not in particular.
Fin rapes Chapter 2+3 and 7-Epilogue's Arena easily because of Hero Lance hax. Also, the First Gen gives far less EXP than the Second Gen, because of less and lower level enemies as well as less Civilians to rescue (the Second gen gives liek 18 and the First Gen only gives 6), which means that Fin is better off helping out here and there in the First Gen, getting high enough to be able to help Leaf (I'd say about 15, although it really depends on what you're passing on to Leaf and Nanna). Chapter 1 he can Clear Rounds 1-4, which is about a level. Chapter 2 he can clear up to Round 5 without the Hero Lance, then clear rounds 5+6 with it, which is about a level and a half, and then another level. Chapter 3 1-5, MAYBE 6 at the end with the +3 Str and +1 Def villages (as he would be knocked to Prayer activation Range with the +1 Defense at 15 and then win). About 2 levels, then an extra half level if he completes Round 6. Chapter 7 is raep. About a level and a half. Chapter 8 is raep, but he might not beat Round 7. 2 levels if he beats it, 1 and a half if he doesn't. Chapter 9 is easy. One and a half levels. Chapter 10 he might not beat Round 7. A level and two thirds if he does, a level and a third if he doesn't. Epilogue, probably loses around Round 5 for a level and a half, if he doesn't, he's getting two and a half. So that's. . . about 13-15 levels from the Arena. Jamka's getting about 11, assuming he doesn't get unlucky and lose (he has a reasonable chance to lose to 4's Level 30 Big Shield-using Volcano-casting Baron, since it has a 30% chance to block his stuff and 2HKOs him plus it has a Skill Ring). So Fin needs about 1500 EXP, over the course of about 315 turns. Jamka needs 1300 EXP, within about 140 or less turns. Oh noes, Fin needs to kill something every 5 or so turns, and he has mounted movement and good attack. Meanwhile, Jamka needs to kill something every 3 turns, which sucks for him because he isn't mounted and downtime in the First Gen sucks (running to Mackily in 2, conquering Silvail and such in Chapter 3, and waiting for Mahnya to die in 4, running through the desert+waiting for Cuan and Ethlin to die in 5). Fin only has to deal with half of those timesinks for his EXP, and they don't even matter that much because that's time to build Fin/Lachesis up.
Oh no, a hit loss against enemies with -24 Avoid. Even with it, Fin has >100 Hit. The only one that matters is the Avoid loss. It's worth noting that Fin's attack is better than most at this point, since Noish and Lex and Cuan don't double, Alec and Midayl do less damage, and Arden just fails (as does Ethlin, but Ethlin can heal). That leaves Azel, who has even lower durability than Fin and less move, and Sigurd, who is broken. Is his durability weak? Yeah. Is he still 2 rounding every generic axe user, which is more than what anyone who isn't Azel or Sigurd can say? Yeah.
Wait, the unit that joins 2 chapters later 5 levels higher has superior base stats? What are you trying to prove? Jamka's offense is better for that half chapter after Jamka joins and before Fin gets the Hero Lance, since Fin at Level 5 is more reliable than Jamka against those dreaded armors.
Jamka's offense for roughly half a chapter is better. There's still one a half more chapters after that where they're both there.
Good thing Prayer tends to give massive Avoid boosts, and most enemies don't hit hard enough to negate it. And Fin's 10% better Luck growth is about as useful as Jamka's 20% better HP.
Yesh.
1HP Fin getting swarmed and dodging every attack and owning everything on the counter > Jamka one rounding one enemy a turn
And then they get out of the forests, and Fin quickly overtakes Jamka while running to the next castle. And then the chapter ends. Then in Chapter 2, Jamka spends the first half of the map trying to catch up, then more fun backtracking, fight swordies, then Jamka gets left behind again as we charge Shagall. Chapter 3 is about equal.
Deadliest twig I ever saw.
Good thing none of them will hit because he has no skill.
Jamka's adopted, and Fin is pretty much the godfather to the Prince and Princess of Lenster, plus he's probably gonna get king of Agustria or something because Lachesis wants him and Sigurd decided to kill off everyone in power. Verdane is the crappiest country in Jugdral anyway (seriously, it's a country full of bandits, it wasn't even founded by a Crusader), being royalty there isn't worth much. |
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| +Ema Skye | Oct 26 2007, 12:35 AM Post #5 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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What I mean is that it doesn't do anything for your rankings during the first generation. What Fin does during the second generation isn't applicable to this debate. It's in the rules. If it wasn't, Fin would automatically win, maybe even over units like Sigurd... Or maybe not. Either way, it's kinda dumb. So, you're going to limit Fin a lot by keeping him at a low level, which benefits one difficult rank. Jamuka can crush things and be good. That makes Jamuka better in this First Generation debate tournament. Also... I recently recorded all of my levels as I progressed through the game, trying to use every single unit for that EXP rank without killing other ranks. Here are his levels at the start of each chapter. Chapter 2: Level 11.2 Chapter 3: Level 17.3 Chapter 4: Level 21.5 Chapter 5: Level 26.0 Endgame: Level 30.0 Ohsnapz, a lot of that is from the arenas. He can max out his level pretty easily. Lots of EXP from arenas and then just fighting like everyone else does it.
Then he is balls. Jamuka can rape four arenas, and rape everything he attacks, and never die, His only problem is his class. In this game, countering isn't as important as it in others, because there's a lot of rushing and offensive stuff. You don't just camp and play defensively. You have to rush and kill things because of all the castles and the Tactics rank. Yes, Fin has a horsey, so this is good for him, but Jamuka's movement isn't lolmagicuser level, so he's not doing terrible. He also has one more range than all of the other foot people except Brigid. And, if Fin is hanging with Lachesis, less use for him. So what if he's benefitting the second generation by just hanging back and gaining his EXP there? Then he's not even doing anything in the first generation, so whatever, Jamuka wins.
Ayra has ridiculous offense. Most offense in the first generation after getting the Hero Sword. Jamuka, however, doesn't seem to be losing to her, and he is more durable. Javelins suck. They're barely a threat to him. He actually has high Evd, good HP, and good Def. He also doesn't have WTDA. He has more Evd than Fin and more HP. He's doing better at fighting Javelin users.
A decent chance he won't? Wtf? By the time he's fighting them, he has 15% Crit, 34% Continue, and 35% Duel vs a 0 Atk Spd unit. Since he has Pursuit, all of these have two chances to activate. This means he has a ~86.7% chance of something activating. This only increases as he gains HP, SKL, and SPD. ~94% of something happening vs 0 Atk Spd at level 30. Yes, he's relying on chances, but those chances are incredibly high, so it's very reliable.
Uh, the only Generals around are the bosses, and Jamuka has a chance of one-rounding them. I'm pretty sure Fin's chance is 0%, and he has to fight against their close-range weapons, which are way better than lolJavelins. Duel counts negative SPD? Hmm, that means Jamuka's chances are even bigger than I calculated? I'm not sure.
If you're keeping him at such a low level, he's going to be devastated by the counter, and his chances of dodging will be nonexistent. Countering on the enemy phase? Lol, not if you're keeping him this low. If he's higher, sure, but then he's relying on Prayer, which isn't 100%, or even that reliable given that his HP could be at 9 instead of 1 before it activates, and then he's going to die.
Ugh, not that again. Lots of other dudes want that Javelin. Sigurd, Alec, and Noish, to be specific. Fin's not definitely getting it. He has more durability on his turn, and less on the enemy phase, and less offense in general with it.
Ohohoho, now I see why you kept him at Level 5. Not just for your EXP arguement, but because he gets down to 1 HP exactly? Crafty. Well, if you do that, he's clearly failing in terms of combat to Jamuka, and Prayer doesn't even make him more durable unless you're being attacked by like 10 things at once, which doesn't happen. Jamuka has HP/Evd/Def to keep him alive for a single turn very easily.
Eh, never missing > having a shot at missing. More Hit is nice. Cuan has like ~20% to one-round while Fin's is 0%, so he's losing offense to another unit. Alec at least doubles and has WTA. He's outdoing Noish in offense, sure.
Level 6 Fin w/ Cuan conversation HP: 35.5 STR: 11.2 MAG: 0.2 SKL: 11.0 SPD: 11.5 LUK: 10.5 DEF: 9.5 RES: 0.2 Hmm, yeah, Jamuka's better at even levels. Fin's total growth minus worthless MAG = 255. Jamuka's total growth = 255. Fin can't possibly have better stats than Jamuka. But wait, there's more. Fin's promo gain total = 12. Fin's promo gain total = 14. Damn, promotion just makes it worse. So, now that we have it settled that Jamuka's stats are always better, we can move on, right?
It's still better after Fin gets the Hero Lance. Fin gets to whack non-sword armours 4 times, but Jamuka is winning everywhere else. Fin also almost always takes counters, while Jamuka almost never takes counters. He has huge chances of raping the super tanky things with all of his shit stacked up. Fin has a 0% chance of one-rounding bosses and Generals. So, Fin is better at one-rounding some armours by a small percent, and Jamuka's better at one-rounding Generals/bosses by a lot since Fin's chance is 0. During all this, however, Fin is taking counters, and therefor at risk of death, even with Prayer.
When they get out, there's just moar forestz. Well, he moves along with everyone else, kills things when he encounters them and stuff. He kills a few armours, and he can move ahead to kill some free knights. Then when you're done with that, you can warp him. That's nice EXP for Edain and/or Ethlin. If you're doing this "Fin should wait for second gen to fight" stuff, then Jamuka is possibly promoted in Chapter 3 and absolutely crushing Fin.
His KILLER Bow has huge Hit, so he has very high Hit anyways. Harhar.
Adopted? I never knew that. He doesn't look adopted. He just looks younger. His son becomes the King of Verdane at the end of the game, so he's probably not adopted. Being royalty somewhere >>> being a commoner. King of Agustria = Aless. Sorry, nppb. Here is your entire debate: Fin can just stay at a low level and let everyone else level up since he can level up in the second generation, and this makes him supposedly better for the gay EXP. Well, I'm pretty sure you have more units to level up in the second generation anyways, and they like starting at lower levels, so... |
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| +Ema Skye | Nov 2 2007, 12:23 PM Post #6 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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PB forfeits. |
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6:17 AM Nov 8






