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| A tier list up for discussion; take #23782 at giving life to this board | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 22 2007, 04:43 PM (7,892 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Oct 24 2007, 03:31 PM Post #16 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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She's not better than Oswin defensively. |
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| Reikken | Oct 24 2007, 03:50 PM Post #17 |
 
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If only physical attackers existed, sure. He's definitely worse against magic. |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Oct 24 2007, 03:57 PM Post #18 |
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Yes, she is. Oswin takes 0 damage from physicals. Rebecca takes 0 damage from physicals _and_ magicals. |
| this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER | |
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| Big Boss | Oct 24 2007, 04:58 PM Post #19 |
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Oswin has a small RES and considerable HP advantage over Rebecca, so it's not like he's going to get killed by the magical attacks. Plus, Oswin is countering. Countering and not dying>>>not countering and not dying. And what about Lowen? Is Rebecca also a better tank than him? 
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 ^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan | |
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| Mekkah | Oct 24 2007, 05:01 PM Post #20 |
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And yet most of the time, all she has is that on enemy phase, and hardly any attacking if at all.
The same could be said about Bartre, but I don't want to use him.
How great is that when 2-range is not required, not nearly as required as 1-range, and then you also have sort of decent 1-2 range with Hand Axe Dorcas/Hector and actually quite good 1-2 range with Javelin Oswin. All of who fare better against Peg Knights. If her cons >>> her pros she would be utterly shit. However, her pros being >>> her cons does not make her high tier. It makes her usable. Rebecca does the least damage of everyone early game except Serra on player phase, and then ties with Serra for doing damage on enemy phase unless she's attacked by another bow user, but that won't happen. She also dies in two hits to everything except maybe two Iron Sword Merc hits or something. I would call that suck. I never saw the big deal in outranging stuff on player phase anyway, Rebecca should stay behind other units so your melee people take the melee enemies and allow you to advance more quickly in the end. If she goes out and plays decoy with her infinite dodge that's great, but what use is it when other people with great dodge and durability can do the same thing and actually damage shit in the process. She's probably the best Mid tier unit on that list though. |
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| Oath | Oct 24 2007, 05:23 PM Post #21 |
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Eh, I don't like the upper tiers much. I agree with Reikken on Raven > Kent. If Kent is supporting Lyn, all the more reason he doesn't belong in God. I do like her in the bottom though. I think Kent and Sain should both go at the top of high. Oswin should be higher as well as Prissy. God Guy Raven Lowen Marcus Priscilla Oswin High Kent Sain Eliwood etc. Lucius > Canas. Canas is supportless and too slow. Other than that, looks good. Props for putting Lyn in bottom. |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Oct 24 2007, 05:26 PM Post #22 |
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No, but the chance of Oswin dying is much greater. And it's not about Rebecca vs. Oswin. It's about Rebecca's defensive parameters. Best in game. We've already taken into account her class disadvantage. Also, Oswin has issues attacking on Player Phase with his low Move. Not outranging even unpromoteds without a Javelin or something ftl. So if you _are_ comparing Oswin vs. Rebecca, Rebecca has a substantial case (aside from earlygame, of course).
Oh, maybe not. Haven't checked. Lowen's pretty awesome in both Avo and Def. EDIT: Nope. Lowen actually takes damage from Magic, sry. And his Avoid is a lot lower. Taking 0 damage >>> taking 3-4 from physical and taking a fair bit from Magical.
That's enough when paired with her h4x on Player Phase.
No, the point is that you _are_ using Rebecca earlygame, so she's actually levelling up rather than not (what some people would argue).
What? No, Hector/Dorcas/Oswin have much lower Hit. And 2-range doesn't have to be required to be good. It's your only good, decent-Hit ranged option (aside from Marcus) until Erk. It fills in quite a few niches, especially as most people don't 2HKO that early on.
No, pros and cons balancing makes her Mid Tier. Pros being way >>> cons makes her higher.
And she also has 2-Range for not taking counterattacks early on. As far as offensively, the niche-filling of 2-Range is enough for her not to suck. It starts a bit bad, yes, but gain some AS and gogogo.
??? It means you get the attack on Player Phase instead of having to wait for Enemy Phase. That means that, compared to a lot of others, Rebecca can attack a lot more on Player Phase. It works as a bit of compensation for her inability to counterattack melee on Enemy Phase.
For Valkyries and stuff like Tomahawk Berserkers, she can actually counterattack. For Heroes and such, she can attack on Player Phase, since she outranges, doubles, and kills with a Crit (91% Crit on a double). Which is a lot more than most can say on Player Phase (Guy, for example, can't outrange the Hero; he has to wait for Enemy Phase). And decoying with 0% chance of dying >>>. It is indeed useful. *As* useful as other tanks like Oswin that counterattack? No, but then she has an advantage over them on Player Phase. A massive one. 20/13 Rebecca, A Lowen/B Dart Iron Bow: 30.3 Atk, 162.8 Hit, 40.8 Crit, 25.4 AS | 39.6 HP, 95.3 Avo, 9.6 Def, 12.3 Res Steel Bow: 33.3 Atk, 147.8 Hit, 40.8 Crit, 22.4 AS | 39.6 HP, 89.3 Avo, 9.6 Def, 12.3 Res Killer Bow: 31.3 Atk, 152.8 Hit, 70.8 Crit, 24.4 AS | 39.6 HP, 93.3 Avo, 9.6 Def, 12.3 Res 70.8 Crit = >91% chance to Crit once on a double, and with 24 AS, she doubles everything except that one VoD Swordmaster and maybe a boss or two. 93-95 Avoid also >>>. Things need >> 110 Hit to have anything non-negligible on her. Her class does not drag her down past High. Not with those stats and h4x Supports. EDIT: I’ll do this with a unit commonly considered h4x. 20/13 Rebecca, A Lowen/B Dart Killer Bow: 31.3 Atk, 152.8 Hit, 70.8 Crit, 24.4 AS | 39.6 HP, 93.3 Avo, 9.6 Def, 12.3 Res 20/13 Guy, A Matthew/B Priscilla Killer Sword: 32 Atk, 149.8 Hit, 87.5 Crit, 27.2 AS | 50.3 HP, 84.4 Avo, 12.1 Def, 9.2 Res Guy’s AS lead is irrelevant as both double everything anyway. Rebecca’s Hit lead is similarly irrelevant. The Atk doesn’t matter; they can both Crit. Guy leads in Crit, but the %chance to Crit on a double is similar, so that hardly matters either. Defensively, Rebecca has more AvoRes, Guy has more Def/HP. They’re both virtually indestructible (though, with Avo of these levels and Guy’s WTD to Lances, Rebecca arguably wins). As far as counterattacking…Guy can’t counter 1-2 range, which is common in HHM, but Rebecca can counter 1-2 Range with correct positioning. Then she has the aforementioned outranging for more Player Phase h4x. Rebecca also has more good Support partners. Guy wins, obviously. I’m not arguing otherwise. I’m trying to show that midgame/lategame Rebecca is super h4x. |
| this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER | |
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| +Ema Skye | Oct 24 2007, 10:14 PM Post #23 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Enemy phase. A bunch of enemies attack Oswin and he whacks them once with a Steel Axe, doing tons of damage. Oswin's chance of dying against physical units is basically nothing. Rebecca does nothing at all. Player phase. Oswin moves and kills something. Rebecca kills something. Oswin is clearly better. And this is later on. Earlier in the game, Oswin has a level huge and a huge durability lead. Since Rebecca can't double yet, Oswin having the second best Atk means he rapes her in offense. Oswin also promotes earlier and sees more combat thanks to the enemy phase. Oswin rapes. Maybe if you didn't have Tactics Gods like Marcus/other mounted pplz, then Oswin would suck, but he's only bad in chapters like Bernard's and Ursula's. Those are really the only chapters his movement hurts him. Everywhere else, the enemies just rush you down and you play defensively anyways, so who cares? In addition to all this stuff, Oswin can get +15 Evd and +1 Def against swords and lances, narrowing the Evd gap and making his Def win even more massive. Oswin is the most durable unit in the entire game. He has massive HP and Def, good Res, and then high Evd after supports. He has an affinity that grants bonuses in all defensive parameters. Oswin is a God. Mekkah, just because it's hard to compare thieving to combat, it doesn't make ranking the units mpossible, and keeping them out because it's "not fair" to the other units or something is silly. -God- Kent Guy Lowen Marcus Matthew Ninian/Nils Oswin Raven Sain -High- Eliwood Erk Geitz Harken Hector Legault Pent Priscilla Serra -Mid- Canas Dart Dorcas Fiora Florina Hawkeye Isadora Lucius Rebecca -Low- Bartre Farina Heath Jaffar Karel Karla Louise Lyn Nino Rath Renault Vaida Wallace Wil |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Oct 24 2007, 10:42 PM Post #24 |
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Oswin does not kill something. Less offense (by a lot) ftl.
Ok? This isn't about Oswin vs. Rebecca. This is to show that Rebecca should be High Tier. And the statement was about midgame/lategame.
No. You move wherever it's best to move, and Oswin has trouble with that.
It doesn't matter how "narrow" the Avoid gap gets. Rebecca is never taking damage against anything, whether physical or magical. She is indeed more durable than Oswin. |
| this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER | |
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| +Ema Skye | Oct 24 2007, 10:49 PM Post #25 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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No. He weakened a bunch of things on the enemy phase, and he can easily crush something in two hits. He can kill any of those weakened enemies. He can also OHKO with effective weapons very often. Weakening a bunch of enemies with no chance of dying and being able to OHKO a lot >>> killing one thing on player phase.
Super lategame when her supports are maxed and she's next to both partners, yes. Oswin, however, is extremely durable for the entire game, while Rebecca has a lot of lolglass time. |
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| Reikken | Oct 25 2007, 02:58 AM Post #26 |
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Do note that if Oswin is attacking on player phase what he just countered on enemy phase, he isn't moving, and with his low move, he can't afford that. |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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| Mekkah | Oct 25 2007, 03:06 AM Post #27 |
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You can rank them, but it wouldn't be accurate since you're looking at apples and oranges even more than if you are comparing two vastly different normal combat units such as Rebecca and Oswin. In other news, Athos isn't on your tier list. If I :were: to rank them I'd do it kinda how you did it though, except maybe Hector in God, though maybe not if you don't like the seizing argument. |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Oct 25 2007, 06:09 AM Post #28 |
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He can't reach any non-threatening enemy (there are quite a few) or any enemy more than 6 spaces away from him (without Javelin, with which "OHKO" is quite out of the question). Rebecca can reach enemies _8_ spaces away from her. That adds flexibility to Player Phase for sure.
What part of "this isn't about Rebecca vs. Oswin" didn't you understand? This is to show Rebecca's defenses being great. No one is saying that Rebecca is > Oswin.
"Next to both Support partners" occurs almost all the time. 3 squares is a fairly huge distance; 7 squares from enemy to enemy if three Supporters are attacking or more if the units have Range. Rebecca's h4x durability starts around midgame (as does her high Crit). As for "lolglass," that's earlygame. Which goes back to the point. Earlygame + lack of melee counter vs. h4x Supports (Raven, Sain, Dart, and Lowen? Yes, please), h4x midgame, and h4x lategame. The latter quite easily push her into High Tier. Very high into High Tier? No. But it does indeed place her there. As you saw, same offense as Guy, better defense than Oswin. I have lots of qualms about the list, but this is the one I felt like mentioning first. |
| this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER | |
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| +Ema Skye | Oct 25 2007, 09:08 AM Post #29 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Better defense than Oswin = lolno. She only has a case for more defense against magic users, and even then I'd go for Oswin due to a huge HP win and a RES win. Rebecca's bad start and suckiness in the earlygame keeps her out of high tier. She should be top of mid. If she's high tier, she should be on the bottom of it. Not countering almost all the time on enemy phase and having such a sucky start hurts her. |
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| Reikken | Oct 25 2007, 02:59 PM Post #30 |
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You, sir, are clearly insane. Oswin is very far from invincible against magic. He takes damage and quite a bit of it. His decent res can't even help him against Luna. Rebecca, however, does not take damage. Who's the winner? Here's an example (assuming Oswin 20/12 and Rebecca 20/10-11): 5 Valkyries = 9% chance of death for Oswin 20 Valkyries = 0.05% chance of death for Rebecca |
| NP: Wind Waker, Clannad, Ever17, Shoddy Battle, Brawl (Wi-Fi) | |
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