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| CATS vs Sentenal | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 2 2007, 12:22 PM (529 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Nov 2 2007, 12:22 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| C475_1337 | Nov 8 2007, 04:39 PM Post #2 |
One serious d00d
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Serra vs Lowen, go Serra has three important advantages over Lowen from the get-go: She can heal. She doesn’t use up anyone else’s Exp. She boosts the Exp rank itself. Lowen has one important advantage over Serra from the get-go: He can attack. Considering that you have only one other potential healer for a long time, but a wide range of other possible attackers (many of whom are better at attacking than Lowen is), I’d argue already that Serra’s healing makes a bigger difference than Lowen’s attacking. Both are useful; you have only one of the first but atleast half a dozen of the second; which do you want more of? Clearly the first. And again, Lowen’s attacking isn’t even as useful as most units’, due to his bad offensive stats. But then on top of that, Serra also doesn’t use up Exp; if Lowen is replaced with Serra, Lowen’s kills go to other units, increasing other people’s levels. Plus, Serra is much better for the Exp rank than Lowen, because any Exp she gets is more than the usual amount. Lowen's Exp, meanwhile, simply goes to other units if he is removed. And then later on, Serra gains the ability to attack, so eventually Lowen doesn’t even have that. Looking pretty good for Serra at the moment. Now, before promotion, straight statistical comparisons are effectively useless, as the two do totally different things. So we’d have to look at post-promotion stats. Speaking of promotion, Serra will be doing that first; she and Lowen both join in the same chapter, but Serra’s had time in LHM. She has 7 chapters in LHM, so give her an average of .7 levels per chapter and she gains 4.9, making her LvL 6. But wait, we still have to do some Nils abuse to get 19xx. Nils has 5 chapters he can be used in, so give him .7 per chapter as well, and he’s at 4.5. That means he needs about 25 turns to get 250 Exp and reach LvL 7. 25 turns of Lundgren abuse for Serra is 275 Exp, or 2.75 more levels. Overall, she gains 7.65. LvL 8 upon rejoining, soon to hit 9. Lowen, meanwhile, joins at a mere LvL 2. Therefore we have Serra promoting when Lowen is about at LvL 13 (starts out at roughly LvL 9 vs LvL 2, 7 level gap). However, Serra’s growth rate actually increases after she promotes, because now she adds combat Exp on top of her Staff Exp, and also has a combat Exp bonus to help her with that. So in the time that it took Lowen to gain 7 more levels and promote, we’ll say Serra gained 9 levels, since she’s growing faster. It’s also safe to assume Serra receives a Body Ring; no other character benefits from it as much as she does, as no other character is weighed down by literally every weapon in their inventory. And the end result is: 21 Lowen 41.2 Hp 13.4 Str 11.4 Skl 13.4 Spd 12.0 Luck 16.2 Def 6.4 Res 12 Con Vs 30 Serra 34.0 Hp 17.0 Mag 15.4 Skl 20.2 Spd 22.8 Luck 8.2 Def 22.4 Res 7 Con As for supports, we’ll be generous and hand Lowen A Rebecca/B Eliwood. Rebecca’s use is highly questionable, but it can be assumed for the moment. In return, Serra can take B Hector/B Oswin. Yes, the supports are slow, but by this point they can easily be finished. One might argue that they’d take each other over Serra, but I’d disagree; both have high Atk and overkill Def. They only really need more AS and more Move in order to improve much, as they have plenty of Atk/Def already; unfortunately, supports offer neither AS nor Move. Therefore, Hector and Oswin don’t really care who they support, as it will make little difference in their performance anyway. Serra, on the other hand, can make very good use of the Def and Avo bonuses. So our final stats look like this: Lowen: 18.4 Atk, 13.4 AS—41.2 Hp, 17.2 Def, 63.8 Avo, 7.4 Res Serra: 18.0 Atk, 20.2 AS—34.0 Hp, 12.2 Def, 83.2 Avo, 26.4 Res Serra cleans house pretty thoroughly. 7 more AS and roughly the same Atk; 19 Res is perfectly arguable against 5 Def (physical enemies are more common, but Serra’s Res lead is nearly 4 times as large as Lowen’s Def lead); ~20 Avo, however, crushes 7 Hp easily. Constant 1-2 range helps Serra as well. This situation doesn’t improve much for Lowen, so w/e. Serra can start using Warp and possibly even increase the level gap. Serra’s now beating Lowen at attacking and defending and providing Exp rank boosting and staff utility on top of that. Speaking of staff utility, Serra also has even more of that after she promotes. The aforementioned Warp Staff is quite helpful, Rescue/Sleep/Silence are also available, her healing becomes even better as she now has Physic available, and she can also use Barrier/Restore to help against enemy magic units (these can be very important in chapters like CoD). Anyway, point is, Serra r winrar. |
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| Sentenal | Nov 12 2007, 12:37 AM Post #3 |
When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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I'm going to try and keep quoting at a bare minimum. First, we are talking about Lowen vs Serra from the get go. You basically are saying its healing, and all the nice stuff that comes long with it, verse attacking. But, this is false. The game isn't that simple. Lowen has plenty of advantages over Serra, from the get go. You already covered attacking, so I'll just mention that briefly. Are their units who attack better than Lowen? Sure. Is Serra one of them? lol no. Is Lowen's offense terrible? No. Lowen has but lances and swords early on, for lots of WTA control. He also has good CON for using heavier weapons, like an Iron Blade. Attacking itself is more important than healing. You can heal a unit all day, but healing won't complete chapters. Attacking will, and Lowen attacks. Point in Lowen's favor. Now, other advantages. You say a statistical comparisons between these two is meaningless prepromotion. Well, offensively, yeah. But defensively, a statistical comparison is perfect valid. Lets just see how durable these units are. Level 9 Serra. 21 HP, 3.2 DEF, 33.2 avoid. Level 2 Lowen. 23 HP, 7 DEF, 17 avoid. Lowen also has swords to counter the earlygame axe users, so WTA can factor in to make Lowen even better defensively. So, Lowen has a good 4 DEF and 2 HP victory, over Serra's 16 avoid victory (1 avoid if Lowen has WTA). Serra's dodge isn't even reliable yet, so Lowen is easily more durable than Serra here, even with her level lead. So, that brings me to my next issue. Supports. All of Serra's supports take 5 million years. Lowen has quick supports with a plenty of people. Marcus, Eliwood, Rebecca, and eventually Harken. You claim Rebecca's use is questionable. Why...? Sure, she is an Archer, and doesn't start incredible. But, later on, she gets one of the best offense in the game, and is one of the most durable units in the game due to avoid. Its perfectly acceptable to have her fielded. And even if she isn't, there is Marcus and Eliwood. Serra can support lots of people, but do they really want her? You say Serra can get Hector B Oswin B. Well, yeah, she could. But the supports are all so slow. 66 turns for Hector C, and 71 turns for Oswin C? Thats kinda slow. Actually, its really slow. And might not even exist. First, yes, they might take each other. If they do (and its a fast support), that means they are getting tons more DEF and avoid that much earlier, rather than waiting for Serra. Hector also has Eliwood, Matthew, and Florina as possible options, on top of Serra. All of which build faster. Oswin has Matthew, Priscilla, (Hector), and Dorcas, all of which are faster as well. So, yeah, Serra might get those supports. But will she all the time? No, of course not. They have plenty of other options, options which are faster. Does Lowen have this problem? I think not. Lowen gets full avoid from all his supports. Eliwood gives 1 DEF. Rebecca and Eliwood give Lowen full attack. Serra, if she gets supports, gets full DEF/avoid. However, as I said, that is a pretty big 'If'. Maybe she can get Oswin B. Maybe. Anyway, point being, since Lowen is pretty much always getting supports, and Serra isn't, the avoid gap is closing pretty fast. And then if we factor in Lowen's 40% DEF growth, Lowen is getting plenty more durable than Serra. So, other advantages Lowen has? Lets talk mobility. Lowen is mounted, and has 7 MOV. Need a village that needs to be saved? Lowen can ride faster than most to save it. Have need of some tanking on the other side of your army? Lowen can ride over there and tank it. Is someone dangerously injured, and no healers around? Lowen can rescue and run away. Of course, more MOV makes him able to engage enemy units easier as well, since he can cover great distances to attack an enemy a foot unit couldn't, or can move farther than some to get on some terrian. So, if it comes down to Healing vs Attacking, Defense, and Mobility, I'm taking the latter. Healing is good and all, but Offense/Defense/Horsie>>>. Now, about the level gap. First off, I'm such a novice at FE7, I got no idea what Nils abuse or Lundgren abuse is. 'Abuse' throws up a red flag, and once I find out what those things are, you can expect something about it in my next post. I also see Lowen gaining levels faster than you make it out to be. One, Lowen being level 2 means that he is going to be gaining EXP pretty quickly. Plus, when Lowen kills something, he gets like 30 exp or something. Regardless of exactly how much he gets, fighting in combat will net Lowen more EXP than Serra healing for 10 exp or whatever every round (not even every round). Serra may help the EXP rank more, but Serra helping the EXP rank isn't maintaining her level lead. Anyway, I'd rather compare them 20/1 Serra to like, 15/0 Lowen. Lowen (Eliwood/Rebecca B): 34.7 HP, 14.9 STR, 10.9 SPD, 13.2 DEF, 51.3 Avoid Serra (Oswin/Hector C): 29.5 HP, 12.5 MAG, 16.6 SPD, 8.8 DEF, 60.6 Avoid So, Serra already got her promotion bonuses, and she is really only winning in AS. Lowen is still more durable. And Lowen still has good WTA control, which he can use to completely nullify her avoid lead. Then, you say Serra's level lead increases here? Because Serra now can attack and heal? Well, yes, she can. She can't do both at the same time. If she heals someone, she can't get EXP from attacking. If she attacks something, she can't get EXP from healing. She can't go out there like Lowen can, and tank tons of enemies to build EXP like Lowen can either. So no, Serra isn't increasing her level lead here, no way. Yeah, so lets get Lowen promoted now. 20/1 Lowen vs 20/6 Serra. Lowen (Rebecca A/Eliwood B): 41.2 HP, 18.4 STR, 13.4 SPD, 17.2 DEF, 63.8 avoid. Serra (Hector/Oswin B): 32 HP, 16 MAG, 18.6 SPD, 11.6 DEF, 77.6 avoid. Lowen now has complete WTA control, so Lowen can easily kill that avoid lead Serra has. Lowen is STILL more durable. Lowen gets axes now too. I don't have any AS samples, but Lowen's offense is better on units that both double/neither double, which I'd wager is more enemies than just Serra doubling. Plus, effective weapons. But wait, you want Serra to get a body ring? Well, yeah, she would benifit from one. But she isn't the only one. I bet your Pegasi would like to not lose SPD from lances. Those are the top contenders for that stat booster, but there are plenty of units who would love to not get AS penalities from weapons. Will Serra get it, when tons of people in your army want one? It isn't guaranteed at all. So, AS lose from Serra's weapons help bridge the AS and avoid gap more. Yay. Oh yeah, Lowen has 8 MOV now. Lowen can almost go anywhere, and do anything. He is one of your most durable units, and also one of your most mobile units. So, saving villages, riding around teabagging things, rescuing units, all that sort of things Lowen has over Serra. My post seems pretty long-winded, but I'll sum it up. Lowen attacks before promotion, Serra does. Lowen>>> Lowen is ALWAYS more durable than Serra. Lowen>>> Lowen is mounted/has more MOV than Serra, so horsie Lowen>>> Lowen's is much more likely to get fully supported, as opposed to Serra. Lowen>>> Serra can heal, and Serra has some staves she can use. Not greater than sign all the shit Lowen can do. |
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| C475_1337 | Nov 15 2007, 05:09 PM Post #4 |
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One serious d00d
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Alot of the quotes are paraphased in the interest of saving space and reading time for the judges.
Only at first. For the better part of the game it’s attacking + healing vs just attacking, but even before then, Serra is still winning.
Wow, this proves nothing at all. Check out my 1337 counter: Are their units who heal better than Serra? Can’t see any. Is Lowen one of them? Well, considering the answer to the last question, obviously not. Healing is essentially a boost to your team’s overall durability, while attacking is obviously a boost to total offense. However, Lowen sucks at attacking and I’d much rather use one of the many units who don’t suck at it, whereas Serra is the best healer (or if she isn’t, then she’s a very close second). The fact that there are numerous units who beat Lowen at attacking, while there are none who clearly beat Serra at healing, makes it obvious who’s better at performing their given task. Keep in mind that higher defense not only helps pplz stay alive, but it also allows them to get more attacks in without having to waste turns using Vulneraries, or waiting for the attention of your single healer because you didn’t field Serra. Kent, for example, might fight two Cavaliers and then be too injured to safely continue. Lowen, in the same situation, might be able to fight one more Cavalier after the first two because of his higher durability, but then he’d probably have to retreat as well. Serra, on the other hand, could heal Kent and send him back into combat on each and every turn, so that he never has to retreat and waste a turn, and since Kent’s offense is considerably better than Lowen’s, this is the better deal.
o rly? L10 Lowen: 9 Str/9 Spd L10 Eliwood: 9 Str/11 Spd L10 Erk: 9 Mag/11.5 Spd L10 Florina: 9 Str/14 Spd L10 Guy: 10 Str/18 Spd L10 Hector: 12 Str/8 Spd L10 Kent: 10 Str/11 Spd L10 Lucius: 11 Mag/13 Spd L10 Lyn: 8 Str/14 Spd L10 Raven: 13 Str/17 Spd L10 Rebecca: 8 Str/11 Spd L10 Sain: 13 Str/10 Spd In case you didn’t notice, Lowen has the lowest Str/Spd total on this list, and his Skl sucks even more. LvL 5 Cavalier: 27 Hp/7-8 Spd/7 Def/1 Res Vs Lowen w/ Iron Lance—Steel Lance: Takes 9 Dmg once—Takes 12 Dmg once, and Lowen can miss Vs others (I’m just gonna list the total damage done by each unit, in order, w/ optimal weapon, so that you can see they’re all better than Lowen’s): 22.5, 25, 12, 20, 26, 16.5, 28, 32, 26, 12, 16 Lowen only manages to compete with Rebecca and Florina, couple of little girls with crap Atk, and even then, he has to use Steel, and is thus more likely to miss so he still loses. The others either flat-out beat him (Kent/Sain) or annihilate him (Erk/Lucius/Raven/etc). LvL 5 Brigand: 28 Hp/7 Spd/4 Def/0 Res Vs Lowen w/ Steel Sword: Takes 14 Dmg once Vs others: 22, 31, 16, 30, 19, 24, 30, 20, 36, 20, 18 Losing to everyone now, getting whooped by over half. Awesome. LvL 5 Mage: 21 Hp/6 Spd/3 Def/6 Res Vs Lowen w/ Iron Lance—Steel Lance: Takes 13 Dmg once—Takes 16 Dmg once, and Lowen can miss Vs others: 22, 22, 26, 24, 20, 28, 16, 20, 30, 22, 34 Close to Lucius, phails to everyone else. And etc etc etc. Also note that Lowen’s total Str/Spd growth is less than that of any other unit on this list. Lucius/Hector/Sain’s Pow growth alone is equal to Lowen’s Str/Spd growths combined; Guy’s Spd growth alone is greater than Lowen’s combined Str/Spd. So Lowen never really improves relative to the rest of the team; indeed, if anything, he actually gets worse.
That’s some fairly pathetic logic. Dancing doesn’t complete chapters either, and yet it’s preferable to bring Ninian into a chapter instead of Dart or Canas or whatever other random attacker. Healing and attacking can’t be compared in such a direct sense as that, because there’s no concrete values assigned to their worth. Rather, the facts which must be considered are these: Lowen is one of 20-some-odd units in a useful role, and is subpar within that role compared to his counterparts. Serra is the best of two units in a useful role (and even if she wasn’t, worst of 2 >>>>> 15th of 20 or something). Without Serra, your healing power is halved. With Serra, your healing power is doubled. Without Lowen, your attacking power……isn’t reduced at all, because his slot could’ve just been filled with some other generic attacker. With Lowen, your attacking power……might actually be worse off, because there’s plenty of units with better offense who could’ve been used instead. Clearly, Serra’s presence on the team makes a bigger impact than Lowen’s. Now, on top of this inherent advantage, Serra has two more. The first is that she draws from a theoretically infinite Exp pool, taking Exp away from no one else in order to grow herself, whereas Lowen must partake in a limited pool shared by many others, and thus, in order to grow, has to take Exp that could and would have gone to other units. This means that while the team with Lowen on it has one extra attacker, the team with Serra on it has one extra healer and higher levels for all the attackers, because there’s one less unit they all have to share with. The higher levels for everyone could easily cancel out Lowen’s own attacking capability; 11 attackers vs 10 attackers w/ slightly better individual offense. Since Lowen’s offense is bad, that’s actually almost certainly the case. And then you have Serra’s healing abilities available for her team on top of that, making said team clearly superior. As if that’s not enough, there’s the last thing Serra has going for her, though she’s already winning so it’s really just icing on the cake: Serra helps Exp Rank moar. Her presence opens the door for another 100-200 Exp per chapter, while if Lowen is fielded, he’ll simply be gaining Exp that other units would have gotten instead had he not been fielded, and thus there’s no real difference. Doubled healing power (significant durability boost) + higher levels (slightly improved offense/defense) + Exp Rank >>>>> another generic attacker (unimpressive offense boost; the “improved offense” part of “higher levels” cancels this out, and then Lowen has no answer to all the other stuff) And again, later on, Serra gains attacking as well, and then Lowen is left hanging.
That’s somewhat questionable to begin with. 16 Avo is nothing to laugh at, and while certainly significant, 2 Hp/4 Def are not impressive leads. However, I’m not going to bother going into more detail, because that comparison fails to take many important things into accounts. First off, it’s without considering MDef, which Serra annihilates Lowen at. And yes, magic enemies do exist and are a threat, and though they’re less common, Serra’s victory over them is far greater than any lead Lowen scrapes up against physicals. It’s also without considering the fact that Serra never has to take counters while Lowen quite frequently does, and that Serra also doesn’t even need to get as near to the enemies as Lowen in order to do her job. But regardless, Serra wins when it comes to defense anyway, because (as stated already) her presence increases the durability of all other units on the field. Healing a unit can let them take atleast 1 or 2 more hits than they could’ve otherwise, and this effect multiplies as time goes on and more and more enemies are needed to bring down a single PC. What’s more, it can be applied to any unit you want within Serra’s range, whereas Lowen’s personal durability can be applied only to himself. One unit’s personal defense is no match for healing capabilities at all, and Lowen’s personal defense isn’t even clearly better than Serra’s (rather sad considering that defense is supposedly Lowen’s strong point).
Rebecca has trouble being fielded. You named her two problems below: she has the game’s worst class, one which forces her into the role of a frail unit regardless of whether or not she actually is (more on that below), and she also has a fairly terrible start. Harken’s only present late, and Marcus is only present early. Neither one of those is much help. A B support with Eliwood is fairly constant, assuming Eliwood is played, which isn’t all the time.
“doesn’t start incredible” is an understatement. As you can see above, her initial offense is only slightly better than Lowen’s, which is to say, quite bad. “One of the best offense in the game” later on? Well, let’s see: 28 Rebecca A lowen/B raven: 22 att, 22.5 spd 30 Dart A rebecca/B geitz: 30 att, 22 spd 30 Eliwood A hector/B lowen: 23 att, 19 spd 31 Erk A priscilla/B serra: 19 att, 21 spd, hits res 30 Guy A matthew/B priscilla: 23 att, 26 spd, crit boost 30 Kent A sain/B fiora or lyn: 23 att, 20.5 spd 31 Lucius A raven/B serra: 26 att, 21 spd, hits res 30 Raven A lucius/B rebecca: 25 att, 26 spd Levels are adjusted as follows: Rebecca’s slightly lowered due to the fact that she’s almost totally unable to gain Exp on the enemy phase, whereas a melee unit can regularly gain 10 Exp or something through countering an enemy. Erk’s and Lucius’s raised one because of staff Exp. The average Spd of these 8 units is……22.25. Meaning Rebecca’s is a whole one-fourth of a point above average by comparison to all these other units. Meanwhile, the average Att is 23.875, meaning Rebecca’s about two points below average. I don’t see anything at all special about that. Now, I can believe that Rebecca would have better offense than someone such as, say, lolLowen (who, btw, would have 21 att/16 spd if put into that list; I shouldn’t need to tell you that that’s bad, the worst on the list easily), but one of the best offenses in the game? Nahhhhh. I’m not impressed. Actually, when you consider that she nearly never deals damage on the enemy phase, she clearly has the worst offense of any unit on that list. Kent or Eliwood or whoever can run into a group of several scrub enemies and counter-kill them all in one turn; Rebecca can never imitate that feat, except against enemy Bows, which are usually mixed in with melee enemies anyway. Rebecca can only ever kill one unit at a time. A melee unit can kill one on the player phase, then perhaps counterkill two more on the enemy phase. One of the most durable units in the game? Well, yes, after promotion, she is. But unfortunately, she can’t ever put that huge Avo to good use. See, Rebecca cannot counter melee enemies, which means two things: 1. She’s the number one target for any nearby melee enemy. The AI always attacks a target that can’t retaliate if possible. So if exposed to melee enemies, they flock to Rebecca like nobody’s business. 2. When she gets attacked by a melee enemy, that enemy takes no damage, whereas it could’ve taken damage or possibly been killed had it attacked a melee unit. Obviously, you’d rather the enemies take damage than not take damage. The net result of these two facts? You don’t want Rebecca taking attacks from melee enemies, ever. If exposed to them, as many as possibly can will attack her and take no damage that phase. You don’t want that to happen, so if possible, you always want her to be protected from them. Problem is, she has to go within the enemies’ range in order to snipe at them with her bow. Therefore, she’s going to need some bigger folks such as Kent/Sain/Oswin/whoever to block the melee enemies from reaching her. You’ll see that this is exactly like the treatment an extremely frail unit would receive; needs to be shielded at almost all times, and will nearly never deal counter damage because they’ll nearly never be getting attacked. The only difference is that, *if* she gets attacked, the consequences are different (w/ Rebecca, the enemies don’t take damage, whereas w/ a frail unit, said frail unit might die). But, they’re still negative consequences, so she’s still worse off than all your melee units (basically, the entire rest of your army). Rebecca has to suffer this for the entire game. Now, add on top of that the fact that her stats are downright bad when she joins, and remain subpar for quite some time afterward. Bad initial offense + decent later offense – ability to counter = overall substandard offense (bad and decent come out to below average overall, and then add in the fact that she can’t counter). Bad initial defense + good later defense cancel out, for decent overall defense, but it doesn’t matter, because no matter how good her defense ever is, she still has to be treated like a frail unit; either that, or the player loses efficiency due to all the enemies which will go untouched for a turn by attacking her. A unit that needs to be shielded like a pansy (same effect as bad defense), has subpar offense, and brings just about nothing else to the table. Now why would I want to field that?
Tons more Def and Avo? No, they get the same amount, they simply get it faster by supporting each other. However, it’s Def/Avo that they absolutely don’t need, as they come closer to invulnerability than any other two units you get (earlygame, atleast, which is the only time they get more bonuses by supporting each other). And taking each other leaves Serra *without* that Def and Avo, which she *does* need (or atleast want). Therefore, what makes the most sense is supporting them with Serra. Significantly improving Serra’s defense >>> Improving Hector/Oswin’s overkill defense sooner
Eliwood is again constant in the event that he’s used. Florina may prefer Fiora/Lyn/Ninian, or may not even be used, so that’s quite iffy, and the same for Matthew on account of him being a Thief (not always fielded later on, often off looting things, etc; he wants combat bonuses for about the first 1/3 of the game while Serra wants them for about the other 2/3, and Hector doesn’t care himself, so usually it’s going to Serra). For Oswin x Matt, see above. Priscilla can support Raven and Erk alot of the time, and even if she can’t, her defense isn’t improved as much as Serra’s by an Oswin support, so Oswin/Serra is still the better idea. Dorcas has trouble being fielded, but if he is, yes, he can expect to support Oswin. These two can take one non-Serra partner and still have room for her. That should be a fairly common scenario. The only pairing discussed here that’s at all consistent is Eliwood/Hector. And then even if one of these two is not available, Serra has three other viable options. Erk/Serra is faster than Erk/Pent, believe it or not, because it starts that much sooner (if you build supports ~10 turns per chapter, Erk/Serra hits B Rank about one chapter before Erk/Pent hits C), and Erk’s only other decent option is Priscilla, so he still has room for Serra. Lucius and Sain both want Serra and actually support her at a reasonable speed. Also, in the event of B’s w/ Oswin, Hector or Erk, a random C support with one of the other 3 is quite likely. So in the big picture, Serra has no trouble at all finding supports.
Lowen’s supports feel far “iffier” than Serra’s. The only consistent one is Eliwood, and it goes to only a B Rank. Rebecca is bad, Marcus is gone after the earlygame, Harken is only there for the lategame. Eliwood is better than any of Serra’s options, individually, but 5 different options combined >>> Eliwood alone. Lowen’s other options all have crippling problems.
Did you not read? By the time Lowen promotes, Serra has 83 Avo. 88 with a C thrown in to top it off, assuming she got Hector and Oswin for B’s. That makes her practically invincible. An enemy with a Steel Sword needs around 17 Skl just to reach 20 displayed hit against 88 Avo, and that’s still not even threatening at all (~8% chance to get hit, lol), and something with a Steel Sword probably won’t hurt Serra much even in the unlikely event that it manages to hit her (a 10 Str Merc would be doing 5 damage, a 7HKO). A Steel Axe Fighter could put some actual damage in her, but will have 0% hit, so w/e. And etc. Even promoted enemies don’t scare her: Hero w/ Silver Sword: 28 Att, 112 Hit Vs Serra: 15 Dmg (3HKO) at 24% Hit (11.76% real), ~0.162% odds of death after 3 attacks, and I can’t even think of any situations where there’s 3 Heroes all together. Now, granted, Lowen’s probably not going to do alot of dying himself, either. Defense is his strong point. However, he’s still losing that battle to Serra because he’s more likely to take damage; that same Hero, if it fought Lowen, would need 4 or 5 hits to kill him (shouldn’t happen), but would be about four times as likely to actually land a hit every time it attacked. And yes, that’s even with WTA considered. Against alot of lesser enemies, Serra’s chance to be hit drops into the region of “entirely negligible” or even “absolute zero.” Lowen, meanwhile, has a significant chance to get hit by almost anything that attacks him (Axe enemies being the closest he gets to Serra’s level of “I ain’t gonna get hit”). Add on top of that the advantages Serra has from her constant 1-2 range: She rarely has to take counters on the player phase, ranged enemies are discouraged from attacking her, and she has more spaces she can attack from, so as to help her end her turn on terrain and/or near supports. Lowen can get 1-2 range, but at the cost of making his offense even worse, so it’s not much help to him. So Lowen is more likely than Serra to take damage (less Avo) and will have more opportunities to take damage than Serra (no constant 1-2 range), and thus will need healing/Vulneraries/whatever else more often than Serra. Obviously, not taking damage > taking damage, and since neither one is going to die, that’s what decides the contest in Serra’s favor. As if that weren’t enough, remember that Serra crushes Lowen in MDef, and Lowen is actually vulnerable to magic enemies. Luna Druid: 21 att, 117 hit Vs Lowen: 79.84% real chance to hit, 8% chance to crit, ~6.3% chance to one-shot Vs Serra: 4.06% real chance to hit, 0% chance to crit Serra dominates. Thunder Valkyrie: 28 att, 120 hit Vs Lowen: 21 dmg, 83.47% real chance to hit Vs Serra: 1 dmg, who caers/10% chance to hit Domination again. So Lowen can normally die against magic, while Serra doesn’t normally die against anything.
For alot of the time Lowen is unpromoted, Serra is promoted, reducing the Move gap to a mere 1 point, and Serra has constant 1-2 range, so unless Lowen wants to pull out a crappy Javelin or Hand Axe (not a good idea given his already-bad offense), they have the same attack range, or if there’s forests in the way, Serra actually has a wider range because she doesn’t suffer as much from terrain penalties. Speaking of terrain, Serra can take advantage of Mountain terrain while Lowen can’t. Then Serra also rapes Lowen in mobility during the desert chapter, and later on can use Warp/Rescue to move people around, increasing the team’s overall mobility.
Meh, I don’t see anything else about it in this post. Anyway, Lundgren abuse very clearly helps you S Rank HHM (gets you 19xx and higher levels for multiple units), and the goal here is to S Rank HHM, not LHM, so it should indeed be happening. In theory, one could abuse Serra up to 20 in LHM, since none of the LHM ranks affect HHM at all except Funds, but I won’t argue that point. Not yet, atleast. Serra rapes Lowen enough already.
Lowen isn’t always LvL 2 and isn’t always gaining 30 Exp per kill. That slows down very rapidly, as PC levels grow faster than enemy levels. LvL 10 Lowen gets around 11 Exp for killing a LvL 7 enemy. Serra’s Exp gains, meanwhile, remain constant and are unaffected by the considerable HM Exp cut. And yes, while Lowen gets more Exp for killing than Serra does for healing (at first), Lowen’s also going to have fewer kills than Serra has heals. Serra is healing on almost every single turn, whereas on many turns Lowen will only be injuring an enemy (he’ll probably be doing this alot more often than actually killing anything since his offense is so bad), and on some turns Lowen won’t do anything because he won’t have anything to attack. With 10 or so attackers floating around, there’s no way that enough targets will be available for all of them on each and every turn; pplz will get left out sometimes. With all that in mind, odds are that they’re growing at about the same rate overall, until Serra promotes.
She’s not doing both at the same time, she’s doing whichever one is better for the given situation. If everyone is healthy and there’s alot of enemies nearby that need killing, Serra and Lowen both can go and attack one of them. However, when those enemies are mostly gone and there are several injured PCs who need healing, Serra can heal one of the PCs, while Lowen more often has no way to gain Exp on that phase. Keep in mind also that when multiple PCs are injured Serra’s more likely than Lowen to receive Ninian’s attention, as healing is what is necessary at the moment, and thus her Exp gains for that phase are doubled. At this point Serra should also have Barrier and Physic floating around; the former allows her to gain Exp when there’s absolutely nothing better to do (such as on the first turn), while the latter increases both her healing range and doubles her healing Exp. On top of that, Serra now has a combat Exp bonus, so her combat Exp gains are not much if any less than those of someone like Lowen, even though her level is so much higher.
No. 21 Serra means 13 Lowen, roughly. Serra needed 11 levels to promote upon joining, and since they’re growing at about the same rate up til now, that means 11 levels for both. Also, Rebecca support is removed, because Rebecca herself is bad. She will not often be used, and even when she is, the positive of her supporting Lowen is cancelled by the negative of fielding a bad unit. 13 Lowen B Eliwood: 12 att, 10 spd!!!33 hp, 12 def, 4 res, 39 avo 21 Serra B’s w/ Lucius/Sain + C Erk—C’s w/ Hector/Oswin + C Erk: 14.5 att, 17 spd!!!29.5 hp, 11 def, 21 res, 66 avo—12.5 att, 17 spd!!!29.5 hp, 10 def, 20 res, 66 avo Averaging the two stat sets for Serra together: 13.5 att, 17 spd!!!29.5 hp, 10.5 def, 20.5 res, 66 avo 1.5 att, 7 spd, 16-17 res, 27 avo, 1-2 range, staves, Exp Rank, higher levels for others, Res hitting vs 3.5 hp, 1 def, 1 move, weapon triangle raep 27 Avo alone beats Lowen’s little leads. Then Serra has multiple other huge advantages (7 Spd, Staves, etc.) to flatten Lowen over and over again.
Serra’s been growing faster than Lowen since we last checked (Staff Exp + Combat Exp > Combat Exp alone), and so Serra gets more levels between now and then, and it started as a 7 level gap. Try again: 21 Lowen B Eliwood: 15 att, 13 spd!!!41 hp, 17 def, 7 res, 49 avo 30 Serra (B Oswin/B Hector/C Erk and B Lucius/B Sain/C Erk, averaged together): 18.5 att, 20 spd!!!34 hp, 12.5 def, 27 res, 83 avo 3.5 att, 7 spd, 20 res, 34 avo, 1-2 range, staves (now featuring Warp/Rescue/Hammerne), Exp Rank, higher levels for others, Res hitting vs 7 hp, 4.5 def, 2 move, weapon triangle raep once again Lowen’s Hp and Def leads increased, but so did Serra’s Avo and Res leads, so that’s about the same. Lowen now has one more move and Axes, but Serra has some shiny new staves to play with (Warp/Hammerne technique adds mobility, helps Serra grow, and is great for Exp rank). Overall, about the same amount of raep as before.
Yes, everyone wants it, and yes, Serra will get it. Even Oswin wants a Dragonshield; even Guy wants a Speedwing; even Hector wants an Energy Ring. Getting +2 to a stat > not getting it, no matter how good you are in that stat already. Thing is, ofcourse, those units want said stat boosters *less* than everyone else, and thus they don’t get them. Stat boosters are applied to the units that will be most improved by them. Normally, the RNG plays a role in determining who wants a stat booster the most (a Str-screwed Kent, for example, might end up getting an Energy Ring that would usually go to Guy). However, Con is unaffected by the RNG, and thus this is not the case with Body Rings. And yes, the Pegasi are the only ones who can really compete with Serra for that Body Ring, but they still lose it to her more often than not because their natural Spd is higher, and thus they are better able than Serra to cope with an AS drop. They also have the Slim Lance and Iron Sword available as last-ditch resorts, and while those aren’t weapons you want to use very often, they’re better than the nothing which Serra has if she wants to maximize her AS without a Body Ring. Plus, you get two Body Rings, so usually there’s enough to go around anyway.
Even if Serra doesn’t get a Body Ring, it’s -1 AS/-2 Avo for her to use Lightning. Way too minor to even begin to tip the scales.
Before Serra promotes: Doubled healing power (significant durability boost) + higher levels (slightly improved offense/defense) + Exp Rank >>>>> another generic attacker (unimpressive offense boost; the “improved offense” part of “higher levels” cancels this out, and then Lowen has no answer to all the other stuff) After Serra promotes: 1.5 att, 7 spd, 16-17 res, 27 avo, 1-2 range, staves, Exp Rank, higher levels for others, Res hitting vs 3.5 hp, 1 def, 1 move, weapon triangle raep 3.5 att, 7 spd, 20 res, 34 avo, 1-2 range, staves (now featuring Warp/Rescue/Hammerne), Exp Rank, higher levels for others, Res hitting vs 7 hp, 4.5 def, 2 move, weapon triangle raep once again etc. |
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| Sentenal | Nov 17 2007, 12:38 AM Post #5 |
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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tl;dr, ur gay, go win this tourny. |
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9:30 AM Nov 8
