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| FE5 tier list; Suggestions? | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 6 2007, 12:56 PM (1,955 Views) | |
| Beta-Knight | Mar 4 2008, 06:45 PM Post #46 |
whatever
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At least you can control what happens in the fray. It's not exactly hard to have him steal stuff without putting him in a dangerous situation.
Well of course those two can do it better; the point is that he can still fight and defend himself to some extent. It's not exactly like Matthew could fight all that well after earlygame either.
All you have to do is let him get a few kills and steal stuff. There's plenty of stuff to steal, and there are quite a few kills in chapter 4 and such that aren't all that much harder for him to get than anyone else.
He's not very good at it, but he can still do it. You're making it sound like he's Ronan in terms of fighting. Because of his level lead, he's gonna be decent for a while. Speaking of bad fighters, Saphy, who you've definitely made it clear should be in the top, is one of the worst. She not only has some of the worst durability in the game, she also has only one- I don't mean one type, I mean one of that type- tome to work with until chapter 22. She's prolly not worth promoting at all, and yet she's in the top, is she not? I can't see Lifis in the top of the top, but I definitely can't see him an entire tier lower, either. He should definitely be at least in that tier, IMO. |
Formerly Dark Beta, Falaflame. Beta-Kraid or just Beta on other forums
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| Mekkah | Mar 5 2008, 01:45 AM Post #47 |
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I am not saying Lifis should not be top tier, at least not without knowing his reason to be there. I'd say he isn't the top of everything but I'm not sure where to place him...I think Machua and Parn don't deserve top tier as it is, and Lifis should be below Othin, Fin, Fergus and Shiva. Not sure of Mareeta, she may be one of the best units on this list but I feel that the joining time of the others overrides her (usually overkill) win in offense when trained, and then she also comes underleveled with no EXP rank. I advocate Saphy for top because, unlike Lifis, she's absolutely 100% required to come even remotely close to SSS-ranking. Even if you don't promote her. That just means no need for a Knight Proof in trade for her not being able to attack and not gaining EXP, neither of which she gives much of a damn about. Her ability to use Warp, Rescue, Restore and Repair and recruitment of two good characters as well as being one of two healers for a significant time is enough already. |
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| Zorak | Mar 5 2008, 03:12 AM Post #48 |
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I'm pretty sure he's talking about stealing tomes (such as Fire) for Asvel so he doesn't have to use Graphcalibur early game.
At least Matthew has Lck, Lifis has the worst Lck between all your units, 1 base + 5% growth is terrible, and with his low Def he can't afford that. |
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| Mekkah | Mar 5 2008, 09:27 AM Post #49 |
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Oh. That's nice indeed, though Mages are also easily captured by about anyone and I already factored in that the fact that he steals tomes is nice. |
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| szh | Mar 5 2008, 09:50 AM Post #50 |
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Well that is true, however capturing a unit means that: 1. You have to get countered by the mage. Unless you can OHKO (even with the reduced stats while trying to capture). Unless I'm wrong, most physical units have rather crappy mag/res (same thing I think), and thus would get some damage from the mage. 2. It wastes 1-2 uses of the spell you're trying to get  Minor point ftw.3. Since Lifis is supposedly not a good combat unit, why not have him disable a random mage for underleveled/low hp units to gain exp? Chests are not everywhere, and disabling a mage is kinda useful. Of course if he kills it instead it would be much better, but possibly it could be argued that gaining the Fire spell and not really losing the exp (only losing efficiency, as other units have to kill it) outweighs the Tactics loss. And you don't get much money in this game iirc. As you usually bring Lifis anyway, it's free money (and 10 exp).
I think like all staff users are super important for SSS-ranking...the turn limit is really abusive for SSS-rank. My points might suck, I'm new at this. Tell me if they do in large capital letters. |
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| Beta-Knight | Mar 5 2008, 09:56 AM Post #51 |
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whatever
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Machua I can understand, but why not Parn? He's a better fighter than Lifis by far, with that wtfh4x countercrit. He's pretty much like a Lifis that requires no training. It doesn't matter that Mareeta comes underleveled. Her offense is gonna start out great no matter what, with her personal weapon and countercrit. |
Formerly Dark Beta, Falaflame. Beta-Kraid or just Beta on other forums
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| Former Guest | Mar 5 2008, 01:45 PM Post #52 |
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The deal with Amalda and Misha is that while most of their bases and weapon levels are none too slouchy and don't turn out so badly either, their base attack is a major issue. It's really, really bleh on its own. Base attack mired in the single digits at a promoted level........holy crap, that's even worse than FE7's Karla. Thanks to that low attack, I don't see them being even remotely viable for capturing business at any time. I don't see them OHKOing with armorslayers (if they want armors dead with killing edges, I gather they probably need criticals on both hits) and they're barely scratching past 20 attack with all the high ranks like silver while giving up their AS. I'm sure quite a few unpromoted 15-20/0 people around Lenster's liberation can have more than that with the weaker swords. On foot, their offense only consistently registers with the elementals which aren't too common and anyone else with a B rank is probably powerful enough to wipe dragon knights or peg riders out with the wind variety anyway. Amalda has a staff rank matched/surpassed by several others who don't often have damage output woes as severe or have to take direct counters to be versatile, and no supports whatsoever (which are better than just 3 universal hit/avoid). The both of them are some of the most cumbersome recruits to make, hands down. You have to field a relatively worthless underlevelled priest to convert Amalda and adjust the army with care so she doesn't ride into suicide. It's in your highest interest to lure and subdue Misha ASAP so you don't have to face four enemy factions at once instead of three, and she only has Karin to draw on for support who's easily promotable by then, or at least by when you can finally stop dragging Misha's snoring carcass around. Karin dominates Misha everywhere forever if you want a peg knight - damage output, accuracy, evade, concrete durability, miscellaneous flyer utility, etc. As prepromotes, their prospects for getting fielded in the first place just so they can work towards overcoming low base attack are looking kinda grim to me. You might as well slap a sticker on each of them that reads EMINENTLY REPLACEABLE. Beta, I concede they might be too low despite all this. I find it hard to secure a higher foothold for either of them, though. When they join, you have thirtysomething units able to do something they want to do in a more advantageous statistical position for the team to do it effectively unless they got insanely screwed or pointedly ignored (Nanna/Karin >>>>>>> Amalda/Misha), and/or something unique that's more than what Amalda&Misha can muster combined. And neither exists half the time. Maybe if somebody can put together a cogent argument for why A route is more preferable to traverse than B by far, they can rise above Dagda. |
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| Mekkah | Mar 5 2008, 02:16 PM Post #53 |
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Sure, Lifis stealing it MIGHT be more efficient, but nonetheless he is not the only one who can get Asvel weapons in Manster, merely arguably the best candidate for it.
Parn's joining time is more smelly though. His stats are pretty terrible though he does have some tight growths (40% Str and 65% Spd). He seems to be "okay" in supports - mutual one with Lara who is decent at what she does I suppose, then Trewd is alright and Salem is average at best. I didn't look at his countercrit before and it's indeed pretty decent, but since it only helps on Pursuited attacks let's hope his 24 HP/5 Def/3 Mag lets him use it. Overlooked the countercrit though, so overall I think he's in the right spot. Maybe I'd put him top of High instead but I don't think it matters a lot. Whether Armalda/Misha are outclassed by their respective people in their classes does not matter - what matters is which people are better than them and which are not. It seems nearly everyone IS better than them though, and to top it off they only exist half of the time. Them being a bitch to recruit doesn't help or hurt their cause in my opinion. You have to recruit everyone to SSS-rank, so even if you were not going to raise Amalda or Misha you would have to go through these painful ways. Randomly unrelated point: from ~15 unpromoted growing indeed seems to slow down for many units. Would you think it is more viable in an SSS-rank run to promote them quickly instead? I would think it is because you get to build up new weapon levels and use your promotion bonuses for longer, and you likely won't make 20/20 anyway. Plus, this makes them good enough for a bigger period of time in the future and allows others to get more EXP. |
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| Zorak | Mar 7 2008, 02:48 AM Post #54 |
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About the whole Amalda issue… The fact that her base Str sucks massively isn’t much of a problem for her, mainly because she will be fulfilling the role of a back up healer if played, which means different EXP pool. Her Str growth is pretty awesome, 55% won't do much with her terrible base, sure, but it will at least take her from massive suck to just sucking, you yourself mentioned that Nanna doesn't need the Earth Sword to fight, and Amalda eventually surpasses Nanna in Str (as well as always having better Mag and Bld) so she can at least fight later on. You seem to be overlooking that everyone gets fatigued at some point, when that happens, Amalda makes a pretty nice filler for whatever healer got the bench, and with their generally low HP this will happen often. Her concrete durability is also good, between all your staff users the only one I see her beaten by is Nanna, and only with the Earth Sword applied. C in staves isn’t really *good* but it allows at least to use Restore, and it’s guaranteed that a use for that will be found a few chapters away. And on finishing notes she doesn’t use a promotion item, her bld growth is quite good and she has continue. |
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| Former Guest | Mar 7 2008, 10:04 AM Post #55 |
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Filling a 'dedicated healer' role at first, you say? How unfortunate for Amalda that you could devise excuses in a similar vein to justify fielding shitty units like Laura, Rhys and Oliver for the entirety of Radiant Dawn's last act or Cecilia/Niime/Yodel in Bern. Not that I would. Saphy and Tina, on the other hand, can still get away with just using staves when Amalda is recruited, one reason being Lightning magic's rarity and then cost. Discounting them, I'd rather bring someone who can be called upon to fulfill the areas of offense and staff utility they're given as options - versatility ftw - Amalda is clearly eclipsed and questionable at that.
Correction: she might eventually surpass Nanna in build as well if Amalda's even regularly fielded. When you recruit her, she ties at best (no, I don't play Elite Mode). "Nino might eventually surpass Pent and Erk in raw stats" etc. The magic stat lead is miniscule enough to be pretty irrelevant. With the sheer number of levels Nanna has to develop it opposed to Amalda, it's completely possible even that lead won't exist. Hand her the Sety scroll for a handful of levels as a mere tip for all the backbone she provides and it's gone.
However, the number of superior staff users all growing fatigued at once is doubtful. Yay, if two or something happen to be left, one falls short of a C rank, and I decide not to stamina defibrillate any of the rest, she can be filler.
No, Nanna thrashes her always. Concrete doesn't count for much when you use staves. I'd say her durability is still worse than every staff user above her because she has no supports and usually has to take counters on both phases. Overrated half-existent pally...... |
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| Mekkah | Mar 7 2008, 10:37 AM Post #56 |
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Proposing Carrion for God tier. I believe the main reason people don't want him to be there is joining time/level, but he joins you at about the same time Halvan and Othin rejoin you (to draw a comparison). If that was really a terrible time then they wouldn't be God tier either, Ch1, Ch2 and Ch3 really aren't that important. What does Carrion look like when he comes? Well, he's gaining massive EXP from everything, and massive * 2 in Elite Mode (nobody's ever been insane enough to SSS-rank this game without Elite Mode, and the one who did it with was Chinese and probably still insane, so this is fair to at least throw out there). He is obligatory fielded in Ch8 and almost as much in Ch9 because no matter what your team is, you'll want Carrion to talk to Selphina for the Elite Sword. His bases are pretty amazing for a L1 unit, and while that sounds like "Nino has amazing bases for a L5 Mage", he can really hold his own very well. Bases, both PC and enemies, are pretty bad in this game, and Carrion joins with 8 base Spd and can very well double. His offense is actually pretty damn good off the bat: 4 PCrit (FYI, this is on par with Halvan), and then Leaf gives him 10 more Crit always, as well as other bonuses. He can use lances for more power outdoors, and then slayer-ish weapons to improve more. He's 10 WEXP away from D swords and 20 from C lances and he has a long enough time to build up and be able to use hax stuff lategame. To top it off he has a movement star for kicks, and of course being mounted outdoors is a very good pro on its own, being able to move again, switch weapons, etc. He is quite a lot like Fergus in some ways: horsie with good stats and high countercrit, likely to receive a support bonus and a movement star. Of course Fergus is better due to joining time and even higher countercrit (he has 5), but then again Carrion can use Javelin and has pretty massive Bld and isn't locked to swords and his support (Leaf) is 100% fielded as opposed to fielded a lot (Karin). In the end, I think they're a pretty good match for each other, and Fergus is definitely Top tier, so Carrion is too. |
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| Beta-Knight | Mar 7 2008, 07:32 PM Post #57 |
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whatever
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@FG: Exactly how does all this make Amalda bad, though? Low tier is for units that actually drag you down, not ones that are outclassed. I've changed my mind about Misha, though. Her base durability suxz. |
Formerly Dark Beta, Falaflame. Beta-Kraid or just Beta on other forums
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| Zorak | Mar 8 2008, 06:19 AM Post #58 |
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Wth are talking about? Amalda is easily fieldable because her stats are decent + mounted, such is not the case for all the above mentioned.
You want to talk about versatility? All your healers are more likely to be using staves that attacking since they get exposed, Saphy and Tina obviously won’t attack, if they promote at all. Then there’s the fact that they all lose in movement by 3 points, so they might not even reach a wounded ally/ enemy when needed and might rely on libro, so healing with Almada >>> No healer wants to get attacked, but Amalda can take a hit or two if needed and can counter, that means that your staff users are only using their offense on player phase, and that’s only the case if there’s no one to heal/warp/restore etc and/or if they even reach the enemy due to staying back, so most healers are clearly eclipsed and questionable at that. Their durability easily interferes with their movement/ healing/ offense, Amalda doesn’t have such a huge burden.
No, Amalda will have better Bld always; Str is extremely dubious, yes, but more Bld means better weapons, she can at least wield Silver without getting weighted down, which helps her offense.
Wtf? Have you looked at her averages? Nanna only ties with Amalda’s base Mag at 20/20, no, its impossible that the lead won’t exists unless you have a huge Nanna fetish/ huge RNG blessing. So what if she might have more Mag with the Sety Scroll? I could give the Heim Scroll to Amalda and she stays way ahead, period. I could have given the Sety Scroll to anyone else so it doesn’t even matter.
You can never have too many staff users, the healers you might be using on the long run though might be like, Nanna, Asvel, Homer and maybe Sarah and Linoan, which all have HP problems except for like…Nanna and Asvel. Amalda can easily fill a gap between since having them all playable in the same chapter is even more doubtful, and the latter might not even be used.
No, I’m talking about in the scenario that they both get hit, if that’s the case no staff user is beating her. If she can survive a counter on both phases (she will rarely be fighting on player phase anyway), she is better off, none of your staff users want to get attacked, and with their low movement they have to be very restricted of where they go, Almada doesn’t suffer from these disadvantages since she has 10 mov and good durability, she doesn’t slow the team down in that sense. You think that Saphy is better off? A unit with average avo and around 2 def? That’s not even a comparison, its massive rape. And even when Amalda doesn't want to get attacked she can heal and move away due to being mounted, furthering the durability gap even more.
You are the one underrating her, I acknowledge that she isn’t awesome, but decent; you seem to have the idea that she’s terrible, she easily compares with the mid tier units rather than the low. You completely overlooked that she can use Restore, no Promo item, one movement star and has Continue, which is pretty nice. And no one is saying Amalda >>> Nanna. |
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| Mekkah | Mar 8 2008, 08:05 AM Post #59 |
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Low tier is for units that are lower than about all the rest. Very few units drag you down, and those that do are at the VERY bottom. Even if Armalda was decent she isn't there for very long and objectively seen exists half the time giving each route equal rating, so that cuts her overall usefulness by a lot. EDIT: Eyrios seems a lot like FE7 Karel to me: not bad at all, but you need to give up an awesome character to even obtain him. To top it off, he has these existence issues. Pretty damn bad. Would moving down Machua to top of High tier, below Karin and Carrion, be a very far stretch? The Dakia troops (Salem and Trude) seem relatively high...but I'm not entirely sure of them. Salem is staves which I like, but not sure what to make of him for the rest. His Def and Luk are bottom of the barrel and it probably takes him time to pick up on speed with these tomes weighing him down. Trude seems interesting but no sword skills..pretty bulky though. EDIT again...
Fred is better than all of those in my opinion. When he joins, he has dibs on a lot of random soldiers that are attacking Olwen, which had him leveling up about twice in my Elite Mode playthrough, so one level from that seems reasonable. From there, he gets a +10 support from Olwen, who is High tier. Neither of them needs a Knight Proof which is very good. To illustrate how good: You get 6 of them until Ch10. In 12x, there is two of them, but the second one takes waiting 25 turns and not killing any dancers to get, so in my opinion that isn't any more than 7. In Elite Mode people are already promoting by now. Moving on, you only get one more in Ch13, which is nicely hidden beneath a Bishop on an island, so you'll need Karin or Warp to get it. So you get eight until you route-split. If you assume a team of 10 units including Leaf, that means you need either Linoan or one prepromote for sure. Anyway, back to Fred, his non-HP bases are obviously on the unimpressive end, but he has those when everyone else is unpromoted so realistically he's not that far behind. His Str growth is quite amazing (60%) so he'll catch up there. 10 base Spd is enough to double for now, and since he's been so resource-free and nearly everyone else has amazing Spd by now, he should be able to nag the Sety scroll for a few seconds, which together with his already alright 35% Spd growth makes him quite alright. In outdoor maps he's already advantaged over foot units, but indoors he is hardly worse thanks to a prepackaged A in swords. His base movement is also 6 (9 outdoors). So in conclusion, he's never anything short of good. The Dorias-house people all need Knight Proofs and babying, and have their own issues (Kein and Alba use different weapons when dismounting, and Robert is fodder on player phase). Delmud comes really late, so his only points over Fred are Charisma and supporting and his sword, which he shares with a Top tier...Xavier isn't even outstanding when you finally get him. Pushing Fred any higher gets hard because I like the units in that area a lot better, but this should be the least I can do. |
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| Successor of Raphael | Sep 22 2009, 05:47 PM Post #60 |
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I'm only bumping this because I'm about to play it and I want some talk. So what's making Olwen good? Her class? |
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