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| Solid vs CATS | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 17 2007, 12:42 AM (1,085 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Nov 17 2007, 12:42 AM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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I have to face the winner of Zeus and God. Hooray! |
 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Nov 20 2007, 07:20 PM Post #2 |
 
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This is my first official debaet with you, the debater who inspired me to become a debater, so this is pretty epic for me. I guess, judging from Inui’s comment, it’s pretty epic anyway. Let’s give the audience a dazzling performance, then. Let’s duel...nob.  Kent vs. Erk I’ll start off with a comparison at 18/0. For Supports, Erk’s got Pent and Priscilla and Serra. Kent’s got Sain, Fiora, and Lyn. Then I left out the garbage on both sides, such as Nino and Wallace (and Heath isn’t total garbage, but he’s late, so I left him out too). There may be contestation on the use of Lyn, so let’s get that out of the way first. It’s not imperative to my case, as Fiora exists, but I do feel that Lyn is underrated on FEFF, so I'll press the point. Earlygame, she has among the best offense, due to huge Speed during the period of the game where your units double the least. A hierarchy of Speed values for earlygame: 17/0 Matthew (19.8) > 12/0 Guy (19.3) > 13/0 Lyn (16.2) > 13/0 Florina (15.6) > 5/0 Raven (15) > 11/0 Lucius (13.2) > 13/0 Erk (13.0) > 13/0 Kent (12.4) > 20/2 Marcus (11.2) > 13/0 Sain (10.8) > 9/0 Eliwood (10.2) > 8/0 Rebecca (10.2) > 10/0 Lowen (9.4) > 11/0 Wil (8.6)> 9/0 Hector (7.8) > 16/0 Oswin (7.1) Only Guy and Matthew beat her, and it's largely irrelevant (highest AS in Whereabouts is a Myrmidon with 12, which she gets). Lyn also has Mani Katti, for h4x against Armors/Cavaliers. She’s possibly your best offensive unit early on (Guy has 1-2 Str but her Florina Support is faster than his Matthew Support, and Mani Katti > what's left) until others start to double more often. Her Support roster is also full of speedy Supports with people who want to Support her. Her Florina, Rath, Kent, Wil, and Hector Supports are all incredibly fast (54-81 turns to A). Eliwood/Wallace are also decent. Her Florina Support in particular is uberfast--fastest in the game, in fact, barring Pent-Louise. She caps level later on but continues to have high Speed, good Avo (59-66 Avo depending on Support setup at 20/0, and 75-82 at 20/10), and 20-25 Crit from Supports. You’ll also want to use her if you want to recruit Geitz, and she’s a necessary deployment in several chapters in the game (training her = your free unit slot isn’t wasted + she’s easier to keep alive). If Eliwood isn’t in play (what, he's bottom of High on Reikken’s tier list? That’s definitely nowhere near “always in play” or anything), Lyn’s promotion is fine. When he is in play, she promotes later sometimes, but then she helps out the lategame EXP Rank too, which is tough due to your units being high levelled. And she's arguably better at it than Matthew and Nino, since the former costs a lot of money and the latter is frail and will have to be babied. Then there's this:
Nope, I’m not saying that Lyn is the best FE unit ever or even close to it. I’m just saying that it’s perfectly possible for Kent to be able to Support Lyn. And, if not, substituting in Fiora doesn’t do him much harm (it’s still a fast Support, and Fiora is mounted, unlike Lyn, making it even faster; it’s just a bit later). Now that we've gotten Lyn out of the way, let's get to the actual, direct Kent vs. Erk stuff. Now, Erk doesn’t have Pent for a while, so he’ll have either Priscilla or Serra, depending on which one you’re using. The only way he’d have both is if both were in play, obviously, but depending on playstyle you might not even want to use two healers. Even if you are using them both, the Serra one is massively slow, so it’s not around for a good while (A Priscilla is 76 turns, whereas C Serra is 79...). I’ll assume A Priscilla for now. 18/0 Kent (A Sain/B Lyn or B Fiora) Irn Lance: 24.8 Atk, 123.5 Hit, 19.3 Crit, 14.6 AS | 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 46.6 Avo Javelin: 23.8 Atk, 108.5 Hit, 19.3 Crit, 12.6 AS | 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 42.6 Avo Stl Sword: 25.8 Atk, 118.5 Hit, 19.3 Crit, 13.6 AS | 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 44.6 Avo Klr Lance: 27.8 Atk, 118.5 Hit, 49.3 Crit, 14.6 AS | 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 46.6 Avo 18/0 Erk (A Priscilla) Fiyah: 17.8 Atk, 126.7 Hit, 21.4 Crit, 15.5 AS | 28.0 HP, 6.4 Def, 11.8 Res, 46.1 Avo Thundah: 20.8 Atk, 116.7 Hit, 26.4 Crit, 14.5 AS | 28.0 HP, 6.4 Def, 11.8 Res, 44.1 Avo Well, Erk has 1 point of AS, and Kent has 7 points of Atk with base weapons. With a Killer Lance, that changes to 10, and Kent has a lot more Crit, as well; if Erk wields Thunder then the AS lead vanishes but Kent retains 8 points of Atk and 24 Crit. Sure, Erk attacks Res, but that isn’t going to help him win this bout. Taking some random enemy stat examples from Chapters 19x-23, here are the differences in Def and Res (positive if Def is greater, negative if Res is greater): Peg Knight: -2 Mage: -3 Knight: +8 Shaman: -4 Brigand: +2 Nomad: +2 Cavalier: +5 Merc: +4 Soldier: 0 Fighter: +1 Myrmidon: +1 Archer: +2 Thief: -1 Wyvern Rider: +9 Monk: -9 Against Peg: Kent by 10 Against Mage: Kent by 11 Against Knight: Tie Against Shaman: Kent by 12 Against Brigand: Kent by 6 Against Nomad: Kent by 6 Against Cavalier: Kent by 3 Against Merc: Kent by 4 Against Soldier: Kent by 8 Against Fighter: Kent by 7 Against Myrmidon: Kent by 8 Against Archer: Kent by 6 Against Thief: Kent by 9 Against Wyvern: Erk by 1 Against Monk: Kent by 17 Assuming Killer Lance vs. Thunder, Erk wins damage by 0 against the Knight, but Kent has a significant Crit lead, so Kent is winning. Erk wins by 1 against the Wyvern Rider, but that’s the only victory for him, and suffice it to say it doesn’t come near matching over 20 Crit. Other Wyverns and Knights have higher Def-Res gaps (10 appears to be the highest in Kinship’s Bond), so that can be counted as a victory for Erk, but it’s minor at any rate; Kent’s damage leads are easily more decisive. So Erk wins against some high-Def enemies, whereas Kent wins against everything else. And Wyverns and Knights are not more common than all of the other enemies combined. Especially since Erk’s victory against those Wyverns and Knights is so small when it does exist. But that’s not all. Kent also does more damage to bosses, since they actually have decent Res. Behold: Darin: 16 Def, 14 Res Paul: 12 Def, 10 Res Cameron: 11 Def, 12 Res Eubans: 12 Def, 15 Res Aion: 7 Def, 18 Res Again assuming Killer Lance (or Killing Edge for Paul) vs. Thunder, Kent does 6 more damage to Darin and Paul per blow, 9 more damage to Cameron per blow, 11 more damage to Eubans per blow, and 19 more damage to Aion per blow (Erk probably can’t even attack Aion since the Kishuna Barrier is up that chapter), with a significant Crit lead against each. And Kent’s Killer Lances are readily available from Dragon’s Gate and onwards (even if they weren’t, the Atk difference is still 7 for Iron Lance vs. Fire, and Steel Sword vs. Thunder would only be reduced by 1, to 6; he could also still use Steel Lances against slower enemies such as Knights and go back up to 8). Aside from the Atk, the Crit is also very relevant. They’re not 2HKOing everything, so being able to have a chance to crit is helpful. Even if it’s not extremely reliable, it’s something to which Erk has no answer. And 50ish Crit is especially nice when Killer Weapons have already-decent Might to boot. There are effective weapons that you get here and there as well. They’re limited, but Kent’s one of the primary candidates for using them since he has such huge Move to outrange enemies, avoiding a need to lure in tough enemies against which you’d want to use such weapons. Like that Swordmaster in VoD. Of course, by that time, you can actually purchase some of those weapons as well, so Kent becomes even more likely to have them available. In the face of these facts, Kent wins offense quite easily. Defensively, they have about the same Avo. Kent has 5 more Def and 6-7 more HP and Erk has 4-5 more Res, and physical enemies are more common than magical enemies, so Kent’s winning. Against Axes and Swords, Kent can also get +1 Def/+15 Avo to add onto that, strengthening his defensive lead. Erk has 1-2 Range, yes, but he can only exploit that on Player Phase, for one. For two, enemies almost always have < 100% chance to hit our duo. That means that the chance of two attacks landing is a lot smaller than the chance of just one landing, and Kent needs to take two attacks to Erk's one for Erk to have a shot at winning durability. To demonstrate: a 100-Hit enemy has ~58% chance (real) to hit either of our units. The chance of two attacks striking Kent = ~34%, whereas the chance of one attack striking Erk = 58%. And Kent might have WTA, as well. And you can only take one blow on Player Phase, but you can take several blows on Enemy Phase, so the 2:1 ratio is ruined by that, as well. And even then, even if you're horribly biased to Erk and consider two blows of physical attacks to Kent compared to his one: A 13 Atk enemy attacks Kent twice, for 1.8 damage each time. A 13 Atk enemy attacks Erk once, for 6.6 damage. In two hits, Kent has taken 3.6 damage, 3 _less_ than Erk, and that’s without considering possible WTA, in which case it’d be less than a point of damage per hit and with a lower chance for each blow to connect. Something stronger, perhaps? A 16 Atk enemy attacks Kent twice, for 4.8 damage each time. A 16 Atk enemy attacks Erk once, for 9.6 damage. In two hits, Kent has taken 9.6 damage, the same damage as Erk. WTA makes him take 2 less than Erk, with -15% to take each. Stronger still? An 18 Atk enemy attacks Kent twice, for 6.8 damage each time. An 18 Atk enemy attacks Erk once, for 11.6 damage. In two hits, Kent has taken 13.6 damage, only 2 more than Erk (gogogo 6-7 HP lead). WTA reduces that to 0 more damage to Kent, with -15% to take each. So the potential advantage that Erk gains from 1-2 Range is incredibly marginal. When Kent wields Javelin, however, Erk’s 1-2 Range durability advantage entirely disappears, whereas Kent’s durability advantages remain (and as time goes on, Kent can wield Javelin/Hand Axe more and more often as he starts to 2HKO things). Against 1-2 Range enemies, Erk’s 1-2 Range advantage for durability similarly disappears. You’re also frequently finishing wounded enemies off (either enemies that got damaged on Enemy Phase or were attacked on Player Phase by another unit), so neither will take damage back on Player Phase and both will on Enemy Phase, in which case it’s clear to me who wins. Then there is the possibility of Kent OHKOing, as well. A level 6 Peg Knight, for example, with 20 HP/5 Def gets OHKO’d by Killer Lance Kent, so that means Kent takes no damage on Player Phase from it. In all of these cases, it would then be the same differences, only not doubled for Kent:
+possible WTA Erk’s marginal leads vs. Kent’s clear and heavy leads. Durability goes to Kent. And then Kent has more Move for visiting villages and rescuing and other miscellaneous tasks. Reaching more enemies makes his offense effectively better, as well. Yes, Erk does have better Move through Forests (the only form of terrain worth noting in this comparison, as Erk can’t cross Mountains/Peaks). Plains are far more common than Forests, however. And then, the most common situation involving terrain is Kent and Erk wanting to get into a single space of terrain for the defensive bonuses rather than going through a whole bunch of it. Kent uses up one more Move than Erk does in this case, but he already has 2 more, so he’s still winning. w1nn4r = Kent, by a mile. 20/10 Kent (A Sain/B Lyn or B Fiora) Slvr Lan: 37.2 Atk, 132.8 Hit, 22.5 Crit, 20.5 AS | 45.8 HP, 16.0 Def, 11.0 Res, 60.6 Avo Kilr Axe: 34.2 Atk, 122.8 Hit, 52.5 Crit, 20.5 AS | 45.8 HP, 16.0 Def, 11.0 Res, 60.6 Avo Javelin: 29.2 Atk, 122.8 Hit, 22.5 Crit, 20.5 AS | 45.8 HP, 16.0 Def, 11.0 Res, 60.6 Avo 20/10 Erk (A Priscilla/B Pent) Thundah: 26.2 Atk, 142.1 Hit, 33.6 Crit, 20.9 AS | 39.2 HP, 13.6 Def, 21.2 Res, 70.2 Avo Elfiyah: 28.2 Atk, 147.1 Hit, 28.6 Crit, 16.9 AS | 39.2 HP, 13.6 Def, 21.2 Res, 62.2 Avo Offense again. Kent’s got about 9-11 points of Atk on Erk and a substantial Crit lead when he’s wielding Killer (with Killer, Kent wins all of the important offensive stats against Erk with Elfiyah and only loses by .4 AS against Erk with Thunder, oh noz). The Def-Res gap still doesn’t tilt things in Erk’s favor. Heroes have around 5-6, Snipers 1-2, Warriors 5, Paladins 3, Berserkers 4, Wyvern Lords 9, Generals 8, Swordmasters 0-1, etc. Then Magic Users and such actually have much greater Res than Def (Bishops/Valkyries/Druids have 14-point gaps on average by endgame, quite a large margin--I even see 17's and 18's). Bosses also continue to have similar Def and Res stats, so Kent’s Atk lead matters just as much as before. The only things with over 10 in their Def-Res gaps are Knights and Wyvern Riders, which are unpromoted, so both of the units in our duo 2HKO those anyway. And Kent still has those effective weapons. Defensively, 6-7 HP and 2-3 Def vs. 10 Res and 9-10 Avo (only 2-3 with Elfire, lawl). With WTA, that’s +1 Def/+15 Avo for Kent against Axes, Lances, and Swords, so a lot of the time the Avo lead is actually on Kent’s side (barring some areas of Victory or Death or other maps where the enemies are diverse in small groups). Erk leads against Magic users, Kent leads against physical. Yes, Erk’s lead is greater against magical than Kent’s is against physical, but there are two times as many physical enemies as there are magical enemies in most chapters, aside from CoD or something, and with a Silver Lance Kent can outrange and OHKO many Magic Users before they even get a chance to attack him, so the point is fairly moot. As for 1-2 Range, Kent is using Javelin/Hand Axe very frequently now (against most of the unpromoted enemies), so that’s diminished quite a bit in usage. The situations named above exist to combat it, as well (finishing off an enemy, facing increasingly common 1-2 Range enemies, OHKOing, etc.). Kent also continues to have more Move for a lot more offensive h4x and other miscellaneous uses, same as before. Erk has Staves now, sure, but neither is he very good with Staves, nor do Staves manage to override Kent’s Mounted status. First off, Erk starts with only an E in Staves, worse than every other Staff user barring Canas (Lucius starts at C, Pent at A, and even Renault has an A; Priscilla and Serra will most likely be at A’s as well). So right there he’s one of your worst Staff users. With 17.2 Mag at 20/10, he loses to 20/15 Serra (19.5), 20/10 Priscilla (18.4), 20/10 Pent (19.2), 20/10 Lucius (23.8), and 20/8 Canas (18.5), winning only against Renault alone, who phails at life. This means that he has lower Staff Range and healing power than all of them. Meanwhile, Kent is among the best at doing his job (being a mobile unit, which is aided by having better and better offense and defense), if not the best. Kent’s durability stands solidly. Lowen is the only one who clearly beats him. Sain’s pretty similar. Isadora can get a lot more Avo through Supports but loses it when she wields...almost anything, lol. And not to mention her Supports are late. Marcus gets doubled by the faster enemies, despite having similar parameters otherwise. Fiora/Florina obviously don’t compete (Avo-reliant units losing Avo from almost everything they wield is fairly bad). Heath's Supports are late and his AS is pretty low. That takes care of most of them (except Vaida, but no one caerz about her, so meh). And then his offense is possibly the very best out of all your mounted units (including your flyers): 20/1 Kent (A Sain/B Lyn-Fiora) = 19.6 Atk, 16.5 Spd, 11 Con 20/1 Sain (A Kent/B Serra) = 24.8 Atk, 14.6 Spd, 11 Con 20/1 Florina (A Lyn/B Fiora) = 17.6 Atk, 18.8 Spd, 5 Con 20/1 Fiora (A Florina/B Kent) = 18.5 Atk, 19.0 Spd, 6 Con 20/1 Lowen (A Rebecca/B Eliwood) = 18.4 Atk, 13.4 Spd, 12 Con 20/7 Marcus (A Lowen/B Eliwood) = 18.8 Atk, 12.5 Spd, 11 Con 20/3 Isadora (no Supports yet) = 13.6 Atk, 17.0 Spd, 6 Con 17/0 Heath (no Supports yet) = 17 Atk, 11.5 Spd, 9 Con He very clearly defeats everyone except for Sain (he loses Spd to Florina, Fiora, and Isadora, but he has a ton more Con for actually using heavy weapons without AS loss), and it's arguable against Sain. With 2nd best defense and 1st-2nd best offense, Kent is going to be your best bet for performing mobility tasks. Plus, he Supports two other mobile units (Sain and Fiora), so they can often be coming along with him. Being h4x at a task >>> sucking at a task. Kent’s pretty clearly the winner. Then there’s your own LHM-abuse argument. Kent can be Lundgren-abused in LHM and promoted, providing you with a Jeiganesque figure in the main game to use, and one with substantially better growths than Marcus— HP/Str/Skl/Spd/Def/Res/Luck Kent’s growths: 85/40/50/45/25/25/20 Marcus’ growths: 65/30/50/25/15/35/30 lol h4x’d. Kent has higher growths in everything except Res and Luck, and 20% more for Speed growth. Is it a huge point in Kent’s favor? No, but it does exist, and it can’t be written away. It’s something that Kent can do and Erk can’t, and Erk has no answer to it. Kent debaet-cruxes Erk. |
| this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER | |
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| C475_1337 | Nov 24 2007, 06:29 PM Post #3 |
One serious d00d
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lol, I wonder which one of us is Zeus and which is God. Anyway, yeah, bring it nub 
Your whole post talked about performance only at two specific levels. Watch me counter: When they join: 12 Erk C Priscilla (might not have the very turn Kent joins, but soon enough afterward): 9.4 Att, 12.5 AS--24.1 Hp, 4.2 Def, 8.4 Res, 33.3 Avo, 7.2 crit 10 Kent (Erk joins 2 chapters earlier, hence the 2 levels): 9.6 Att, 11.1 AS--27.6 Hp, 7.2 Def, 3.2 Res, 26 Avo, 5.25 crit Therefore I conclude Erk >>> Kent, debaet over ......Or not. Your comparisons contained flaws anyway; for example, I see that you have Kent w/ A Sain during the 18 comparison, but Erk doesn't have C Serra, despite the fact that C Serra is only 8 turns slower and starts 2 chapters earlier. Anyway, on to more relevant forms of discussion. Concerning your wall o' text about Lyn, I shall respond:
That quote you provided from me was talking about what happens in the event that Eliwood and Lyn are used on the team together, but since that's a scenario which shouldn't happen in the first place, it has no relevance. If Lyn is used, then either: Eliwood isn't used because of promotion issues, in which case you trade a good unit (Eliwood) for a worse one (Lyn). or The player (for some reason) uses Eliwood anyway, and one unit (either Lyn or Eli) gets alot worse than they would be otherwise, due to late promotion. Not to mention that you now have to use two Heaven Seals, which is about the same as recruiting Farina. Ouch. Kent's use of the Killer Lance and other such shiny toys could very well be directly hampered by that. Clearly, these are both highly undesirable scenarios. As for Lyn's personal abilities, you did a good job talking about the only thing she has going for her, earlygame offense. After the earlygame, her offense is no longer impressive (MK is worn down and her Spd becomes largely overkill). Lyn's Str at 21, for example, is the lowest out of all originally unpromoted physical attackers, excepting only the Thieves and Lowen (and she's only beating Lowen by a mighty one-fifth of a point). That low Atk means the only things her offense isn't bad against are those that most people can't double, such as Heroes, but those are rare, and even against those things, she's still outdone by pretty much every other unit that *can* double them. Against the majority of enemies, everyone barring nubs like Bartre can double, and they're all doing more damage than Lyn. She also has terrible Con, and she needs all the Avo she can get, so using heavier weapons to improve her Att is a double-edged sword. And then her defense is never good, and at some points could be considered downright bad. Low Hp and Def (Lucius has more combined Hp/Def than her at base level) + good base Avo, which is lowered to only middling overall Avo due to an almost complete lack of Avo support. Overall, I might agree with you that Lyn isn't a total failure in terms of combat performance, but I'm inclined to say she's below average. From there, the issues her promotion raise certainly turn her into a unit I don't want to use. Even if I use her, the damage done to Eliwood (and in some cases the Funds rank) overrides any stat bonuses Kent or anyone else might receive from supporting her. You said her "roster is also full of speedy Supports with people who want to Support her." Well, first off, half the units you named as wanting to support her are garbage, so w/e. Secondly, the same is true of, say, Eliwood. Hector, Lowen, Ninian, Harken, Marcus, etc will miss him in the event that Lyn is used. Indeed, since Eli has the best affinity and Lyn the worst, one might argue that Eli's supports help moar. You also said Lyn can help the lategame Exp rank, and then named the major drawbacks to using someone else for it. I notice, however, that you cleverly forgot to mention Lyn's drawback: You have to use a bad unit as a main member of the team. For yes, when Lyn promotes late, she certainly qualifies as a bad unit. Stuck at 20 and generally wasting her combat slot for a long time, then underlevelled even after = not good, not at all. I'd much rather use a good unit instead of Lyn for the entire game (*cough* Eliwood) and then send Nino or someone for one or two chapters to fix Exp, if necessary (no one has yet given any proof that Exp boosting is actually needed most of the time). You also mentioned Fiora. You'll notice that she's like Lyn, except with worse combat and a normal promotion. In other words, she¡¦s on about the same level as a unit that I don't want to use. First off, her offense is similar to Lyn's (w/ Lances, slightly more Atk, slightly less Spd; w/ Swords, almost the same stats), but minus the period of time early on where Lyn's offense is actually good, and minus the Mani Katti in general. So overall, not good. And her defense is a tragedy. If she's supporting Florina and Kent and holding Iron Lance, then her Avo at 21 doesn't even break 50. That's barely better than trash like Bartre is doing; it's actually *worse* than Oswin is doing; and Fiora has neither the former's Hp nor the latter's Def to back up that pitiful Avo. Then, as if to rub salt in the wound, the designers gave her a class that takes extra damage from Bows and can't take advantage of defensive terrain. Ouch. Then, on top of all that, she joins underlevelled and supportless when others will atleast have some supports. No, sir, I'm sorry, but I don't want to be using Fiora. Sain, atleast, is a fairly solid unit who wants to support Kent. But Kent's probably going without a B support, whereas Erk isn't (he's got not one, not two, but three very solid units on his list, and they'll all take him). Now, you said "if Eliwood isn't in play," Lyn's promotion is fine? This is mostly true. However, note that as both are ranked as high tier by most standards, the odds of Eliwood not being played are about the same as *Sain* not being played; and Eliwood getting the boot doesn't automatically mean Lyn gets a spot, it just means her chances are better. So Kent is still left with a single, Wind-affinity support partner, and sometimes it goes only to a B support (you yourself pointed out that Lyn x Florina is the fastest support in the game, so that's probably getting preference over Lyn x Kent).
Well, that's a fairly lame argument. Depending on playstyle, I might not even want to use Sain, for example. Depending on playstyle, I might want to give Erk all my Dragonshields. Depending on playstyle, I might not even want Kent to use a promotion item. And so forth and so on.
Indeed. Before proceeding, I'd like to discuss Erk's constant 1-2 range. You claimed that he can only exploit it on the player phase; this is quite false. Ranged enemies are less inclined to attack Erk than a melee PC on the enemy phase; at the same time, Erk is better at countering said ranged enemies than melee PCs. If the player doesn't want Erk to be attacked, someone like Oswin can be sent in, and ranged enemies will hit Oswin instead of Erk due to Erk's ability to counter. At the same time, if the player thinks it's safe for Erk to be attacked and wishes for him to deal out counter damage, they can choose to position him so that ranged enemies must attack him. As you can see, 1-2 range can be exploited for the enemy phase. I'm not really sure what you're talking about in your section about Erk's 1-2 range on the player phase, so I'll just list the main benefit: Erk almost never has to take counterattacks on the player phase. Yes, you can only attack one enemy on the player phase, so this only prevents him from being attacked once per turn. It's about the same as letting him take another hit (i.e. if Erk is dying to something in 2 hits, and Kent in 3, Erk¡¦s 1-2 range cancels Kent¡¦s advantage; if both are dying in 3, then suddenly Erk has the advantage). Another important benefit: Erk has more flexibility in what spaces he can attack an enemy from. This helps him to end his turn on forests, near supports, out of range of certain enemies if desired, behind Oswin if desired, etc. There shouldn't be any need to elaborate further on that point. Kent can indeed emulate these effects, but doing so requires him to equip a weapon with terrible stats, so it's a two-edged sword. Certainly better than someone like Lyn's ranged capability, but not Erk's. --- Now, with all of the above in mind, I'll cover their initial performance, and then examine the effects of factors which might change the comparison as they come up (Kent's acquisition of the Killer Lance option, for example): Dropping the pretense that a single comparison at the specific level of 18 can accurately represent performance during the entire time that Erk/Kent are unpromoted, we find that Kent's case falls apart neatly. For example, Kent does not have the option of a Killer Lance for atleast his first seven chapters in the party, nor does he build up his Atk support for a good bit. Thus, upon joining, Erk clearly has the better offense, as demonstrated already: 12 Erk C Priscilla (might not have the very turn Kent joins, but soon enough afterward): 9.4 Att, 12.5 AS--24.1 Hp, 4.2 Def, 8.4 Res, 33.3 Avo, 7.2 crit (12.2 w/ Thunder), Res hitting, 1-2 range 10 Kent (Erk joins 2 chapters earlier, hence the 2 levels): 9.6 Att, 11.1 AS--27.6 Hp, 7.2 Def, 3.2 Res, 26 Avo, 5.25 crit The actual stats are similar, but Erk hits Res while Kent does not. This is effectively a Pow boost that's different for each enemy; +5-6 for Cavaliers, +8-9 for Knights, +2-3 for Brigands, etc. Erk winds up doing more damage than Kent to almost every single physical enemy, and considerably more to certain types (nearly 20 more damage per double against Knights = whoa). Erk can reliably kill almost every physical enemy bar the Sword types which he can't double; Kent can reliably kill only trash like Soldiers, and perhaps an occasional Peg or Archer or somesuch. Magic enemies reverse the Res effect, but those are still almost nonexistent during these early chapters. Then add on the bonus of Erk's 1-2 range (countering ranged enemies naturally ftw). At this point, Erk's beating Kent down pretty clearly in terms of offense. The defense is quite arguable. Kent has the advantage in concrete Def, but Erk fights back with 1-2 range. 15 Atk 3HKOs Erk and 4HKOs Kent; as you probably guessed, Erk¡¦s 1-2 range evens that out, and then since Erk has a small lead in Avo, he's technically winning (granted, it's by a very small margin, but it's a win nonetheless). Kent can pull ahead against sword enemies (WTA + low Atk to make his Def lead more notable), and slightly against Axe enemies (WTA switches the Avo lead over to him), which is countered by Erk's greater general flexibility due to 1-2 range, as outlined above. Kent equipping the Javelin will have a noticeable impact on his offense in almost any situation at this point, as he's still having trouble one-rounding very much at all, so that has little net effect. Better defense in exchange for worse offense, w/e. Overall, similar defense + superior offense make Erk the winner so far. --- The next major development is that Erk's going to use the Guiding Ring from Pirate Ship and go Super Saiyan, so that he can use Staves ASAP. Kent might want to do the same thing, but it doesn't really improve him as it doesn't add an entire second function to his repertoire, and then even if it was a good idea, there's 3 other high tier Knight Crest units who'd be wanting to do it too. So we have, at that point: 15/1 Erk, B Priscilla: 12.6 Att, 14.0 AS--30.1 Hp, 8.8 Def, 13.6 Res, 40.2 Avo, 16 crit (21 w/ Thunder), Res hitting, 1-2 range, Staves 13 Kent, C Sain or Lyn: 11.8 Att, 12.4 AS--30.2 Hp, 8.0 Def, 4.0 Res, 31.2 Avo, 8 crit Whoa, suddenly the concrete defense situation is violently reversed. 1 Def lead for Erk? wtf? With the same Hp, way more Res, and 9 more Avo? Yesplz. Note that, since you've made a point of Kent's Killer Lance, I've taken the liberty of posting their critrates as well. You'll see that Erk has a 13 crit lead for great justice. Erk actually leads in raw Atk and AS, so add on Res hitting, 1-2 range and higher crit, and he takes the offense trophy no problem. He's also winning defense easily, once again because of 1-2 range + higher actual defensive stats. Kent's WTA doesn't even save him here; same Hp/Def with a 6 Avo lead against Axe/Sword enemies, and then 1-2 range (reliable) beats out that small Avo lead (not reliable) very clearly. Not to mention Erk's now better at doubling Sword enemies than Kent, so w/e. You might complain that Erk's now suffering from lowered combat Exp gains, but that's countered by staff Exp. Speaking of that, yes, Erk has staves available now. You tried to argue that Erk is bad with staves, while Kent is the best mounted unit? I thought you were above such arguments, Solide. My response is simply: This debaet is Erk vs Kent. Not Erk vs Other Staff Users. Not Kent vs Other Paladins. Forget about the outdated "competition" arguments. lol @ 2 more move classifying as a separate and useful function anyway (and yes, to match healing, that's what it would need to qualify as). Besides, your view of Erk's staff use is rather flawed to begin with, as you assumed that he would be wielding Staves only during the lategame. At this point, there are only two other possible staff users, and Erk can hardly be called the worst of them (Serra doesn't reach 12 Mag until promotion). Indeed, I'd argue Erk as the best at the moment, as he's considerably more durable than Serra or Priscilla and thus better equipped for healing even when it means being exposed to enemy attack. Erk's added a second useful function on top of attacking, and he's already the best at it. He's arguably your best attacker too: L4 Marcus: 16 Att, 12 AS--33 Hp, 10 Def, 9 Res, 32.5 Avo 4 Att, 3 Hp, 1 Def, weapon triangle vs 2 AS, 5 Res, 8 Avo, Res hitting, 1-2 range Then Erk's presence increases the durability of all other units on the field, and also allows for straight attackers (like Kent) to gain more Exp than they would otherwise. Erk is more durable than Kent himself, and can also increase the durability of any unit the player wants. Erk's offense is better than Kent's, and Erk also gives everyone else a slight offense boost (slightly higher level). And so forth and so on. Thus, the stats at this point: 1 Att, 2 AS, 1 Def, 10 Res, 9 Avo, 13 crit, Res hitting, 1-2 range, increased team durability, higher levels for attackers vs......weapon triangle, I guess? And 1 move. Sit down, Kent. --- Now, to reach the next point where something happens that might upset the balance. Secret Shop in Dragon's Gate. First off, reaching that shop at all is questionable, as it's in the very bottom right corner and Legault runs toward the top left corner. In other words, you have to recruit Legault, visit the first shop (Physic is worth buying), and then take that Member Card all the way back across the entire map. Your tactics rank might not like that. But assuming that it's done...... 15/6 Erk, A Priscilla, C Serra: 14.6 Att (22.6 w/ Thunder), 16.5 AS--33.4 Hp, 10.8 Def, 16.6 Res, 53.7 Avo, 27 crit (32 w/ Thunder), Res hitting, 1-2 range, Staves 18 Kent, A Sain or B Lyn: 15.3 Att (25.3 w/ Killer Lance), 14.6 AS--34.4 Hp, 10.2 Def, 6.2 Res, 40.6 Avo, 13 crit (43 w/ Killer Lance), weapon triangle This doesn't actually help Kent very much. 11 crit lead? I know I don't care, especially when Kent only has that with a specific weapon that has limited uses; with anything else, Erk has a 19 crit lead. Plus, Erk will have more opportunities to crit in the first place due to doubling more often and being able to counter ranged (Killer Lance is 1-range, neener neener neener). Based on that, I'd be inclined to hand the crit win to Erk anyway. Besides, Erk was leading in crit for the entire game up to this point, so even if Kent was now winning crit, which he isn't, he'd have to do it for like 10 more chapters to make up for the time when Erk was winning crit. The only other thing Killer Lance does is add Att, but I'm not particularly impressed by that, either. See, Kent is losing in almost every single way other than Att, and he's not even winning Att by very much at all (a 3 point lead with his beloved limited-use Killer Lance, and no lead at all with the Iron Lance). A situational 3 Atk lead is beaten pretty easily by Res hitting and a 2 AS lead (Erk can reliably kill any physical enemy now, crits be damned? What?), and then Erk has all that other crap in his favor. I'll also point out that Erk's durability lead has increased. Kent's WTA only manages him a 2 Avo lead, combined with his lol1Hp, against Sword/Axe enemies, which is beaten by 1-2 range no problem, and then he gets whooped against anything else (13 Avo lead + 1-2 range ftw), and wtfraped when magic enemies show up (10 point Res lead fgj [for great justice]). In summary, Kent's shiny new toy doesn't really change anything. Quite different from Erk's shiny staff, which made him much, much better. Erk is still raping. --- Now, let's promote Kent. Odds are Erk's S Ranked his Anima magic by now, while Kent's been juggling two weapons types and recently added a third to play with, so odds are he's not there yet. 25 Kent, A Sain or B Lyn: 18.7 Att (28.7 w/ Killer Lance), 18.3 AS--41.5 Hp, 13.7 Def, 8.8 Res, 49.2 Avo, 15 crit (45 w/ Killer Lance), weapon triangle 15/12 Erk, A Priscilla, B Serra: 17.0 Att (25.0 w/ Thunder), 19.5 AS--37.3 Hp, 13.0 Def, 20.0 Res, 66.5 Avo, 38 crit (43 w/ Thunder), Res hitting, 1-2 range, Staves Not much is new on the block. Kent still has his little 2 Att lead, 4 situational. Erk's seen that already. He just uses the good ol' Res hitting + 1 AS lead and beats that down. On defense, raep Avo lead >>> 4 Hp/1 Def. Kent's triangle lets him get +15 Avo against alot of physical stuff, but he can't optimize that, since he can't change weapons on enemy phase, so in practice, it's more like +10, and against a group of enemies that are, what, half of the total? Prolly a bit more. We'll say 3/5 of the total. So +6 Avo overall. That makes it Erk's 11 Avo, 11 Res and 1-2 range against Kent's 4 Hp/1 Def. Erk still wins that hands-down; 4 Hp/1 Def often won't even matter, 11 Avo always will. Kent's Killer Lance crit is even less impressive now. Only a 2 point lead? Erk laughs that off, and then without the Killer Lance, Erk wins crit by a landslide, with a 28 point lead and more opportunities to crit (whee 1-2 range and AS lead). Kent has 1 more move than before, but Erk should have C Staves by now, so add Barrier and Restore to his bag o' tricks. All things considered, the net amount of w1n for Erk is about the same as before. Eventually Kent picks up Silver Lance, but then Erk picks up Physic too, so w/e. And that's about how it goes, folks. Erk wins clearly for the first few chapters after Kent joins, as an attacker with similar durability and better offense. Then Erk promotes and takes off, dominating Kent for the rest of the game with consistently superior offense and defense plus the considerable advantages of healing (significantly increased team durability, higher levels for attackers, gogogo; pwning at 2 functions >>> only doing one, and doing the one that's way more common, for that matter). --- Some minor nitpicks:
Erk can indeed move through mountains, my friend, it simply takes all his move. But he can do it for that sexy +30 Avo, Kent can't do it at all. Kent's 2 move lead is for 2 or 3 chapters, then it's reduced to an insignificant 1 move lead. By the time it goes back up to 2, there's hardly any villages left to save, so w/e. Concerning mobility in general, Erk's 2 range closes the gap by one space in terms of attack range (or atleast, attack range with a decent weapon), so that Kent has 1 more range for 2-3 chapters, then they have the same for awhile, then it's just 1 more for Kent for awhile more. Also, when there's even one forest, their range is either the same or Erk wins (if it's during the time he's promoted and Kent isn't), and when there's more than one, Erk always wins. Plus, Erk rapes Kent in mobility during the desert chapter, ftw.
Actually I can indeed write it away pretty easily. With the exception of the +2 Def, Kent's promo gains are about the same as him leveling up twice, but him promoting at L10 increases his level for Exp calculations by 11. Slightly higher stats + now hurting the Exp rank = about the same overall. Erk doesn't face the same problem, as his staff Exp evens out with the higher level for combat Exp. The fact that it's something Kent can do and Erk can't doesn't mean it's significant. For example, Erk can attack from 10 spaces away while Kent can't (heya Bolting), but you won't see me hyping that. |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Dec 1 2007, 06:50 PM Post #4 |
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Neither of us has used “%::%” yet. And we’re both LotErs. Shame. Thus, I shall commence by saying this: %::%
Indeed. You and I both know that that quote was merely meant to be a joke. You even followed through by quoting me from that same Lyn debaet. So lol @ actually countering it. Now on to the real stuff.
Irrelevant. Whenever you use someone below Top/top of High, you’re trading a good unit for a worse one. By that logic, most Mid Tiers are entirely invalidated for Support consideration. Trading a good unit for a worse one isn’t exclusive to Lyn vs. Eliwood. And exactly who determined that Eliwood is so much >>> Lyn? 10/0 Eliwood: 9.1 Atk, 10.6 AS | 25.2 HP, 7.7 Def, 3.1 Res, 32.3 Avo 14/0 Lyn (LHM level lead): 9.2 Atk, 16.8 AS | 25.1 HP, 4.6 Def, 3.9 Res, 45.7 Avo (Florina gives Lyn a couple points of Atk, whereas Hector gives Eliwood a couple points of Def, so meh.) Looks like Lyn is winning here. More AS/Avo (and, as outlined above, the AS matters a lot early on), similar Atk/HP/Res, less Def. Then later on: 20/1 Eliwood (A Hector/B Lowen): 18.5 Atk, 15.6 AS, 19.3 Crt | 37.2 HP, 15.7 Def, 13.6 Res, 71.8 Avo 20/1 Lyn (A Florina/B Kent): 18.6 Atk, 19.3 AS, 35.1 Crt | 32.3 HP, 8.8 Def, 10.7 Res, 59 Avo Lyn wins offense (same Atk, more Crit and AS), Eliwood wins defense. Lyn also has Bows for avoiding melee counterattacks on Player Phase, so that narrows the durability gap (concrete durability is obviously better, as I showed in my Kent vs. Erk comparison earlier, but the difference becomes a lot smaller). Eliwood is probably winning at this point since the durability gap is greater than the offense gap, but Lyn was winning earlier in the game, so they’re about even overall. Earlygame is arguably harder due to fewer Supports, PC Avoid not being as reliable, and enemy growths sucking compared to PC growths, so I’d say that Lyn is actually the winner overall. Even if Eliwood does end up winning the game as a whole, however, the margin between them isn’t anything huge at all, as you can see (offense vs. defense, prepromotion vs. postpromotion). Certainly not enough to merit Eliwood in High Tier and Lyn in Low Tier. So, the negative that you get from using Lyn rather than Eliwood is quite tiny, if it exists at all.
Except that it’s not anywhere near the same as recruiting Farina. Each Heaven Seal is 10k over a regular promotion item, so you’re losing 20k there. “40k” represents only the total loss for promoting both Eliwood and Lyn. The net loss that Lyn is giving you from using an additional Heaven Seal is only 20k, in reality, since you were already using one to begin with in your example (otherwise Eliwood isn’t in play and Lyn doesn’t have promotion troubles in the first place, so meh). It’s about half as bad as recruiting Farina, which is indeed quite manageable (the benefit that either Eliwood or Lyn provides for your EXP Rank means you sometimes don’t have to promote Matthew, saving 40k as well that way). So that's -20k to the Funds Rank. A regular promotion item is -10k to the Funds Rank. Kent's total deficit: -10k. So Kent gets -10k to the Funds Rank by requiring Lyn to be played. Kent is still not that much more expensive than Erk, however, if more expensive at all. If Erk is using Staves, a single Physic Staff is already over a third of the additional cost of promoting Lyn. By using only three of these, Erk’s gone over the deficit, and is now actually more eexpensive than Kent. If he gets to use anything like Barrier, Warp, Restore, or Fortify, the cost increases substantially (using Fortify even once adds 500 gold). Up until Dragon’s Gate, Lances (and possibly Axes if you LHM-promoted Kent) are much cheaper than Anima weapons, so Kent is saving lots of money over Erk that way. After Dragon’s Gate, Killers add to Kent’s cost, but Erk’s basic Mend Staff adds to his own expenses, so that about cancels, and Kent is still being less expensive with the rest (Iron Axe is 3 gold per use; Fire is 7, Thunder is 10). And Kent can promote in LHM, saving you 10k in the main game, making Erk actually a lot more expensive in the long run. And this is only of he were to take the burden of Lyn’s promotion entirely on his own shoulders (in reality it’s less since Lyn has another Supporter that is sharing the burden of the cost with Kent, as he’s dragging her into play as well). And when Fiora is Kent’s B Support instead of Lyn, it’s the same, only Kent doesn’t get -10k added to his account, so Erk is actually losing by a HUGE amount (10 to 20k or more). lolpwned Erk. ggnore
Being possibly the best unit for offense early on is indeed quite a boon. Don’t pretend otherwise. It’s worth a sizeable jump in placement, as earlygame is possibly the hardest section of the game (no Supports + PC growths are much greater than enemy growths). While “her Str at 21 is the lowest,” she gets +5 Atk/20 Crit form A Florina/B Kent, and she continues to have the highest AS on the team excepting Guy/Raven, which lets her double Heroes and Valkyries and the generally tougher set of enemies. Against those who have massive Atk, like Bartre/Oswin, she has a big AS lead, and against those who have massive AS, like Guy and Rebecca, she matches them in Atk—20/1 Guy with A Matthew/B Prsicilla only beats 20/1 Lyn with A Florina/B Kent in 1 Atk, and 20/1 Rebecca with A Lowen/B Raven ties her. The people with good AS and good Atk, such as, say, Kent, she loses against, but then I’m not claiming that she’s some sort of amazing FE unit. I’m saying that she’s Mid Tier, and that’s quite plausible. As for her durability, that’s not that bad before promotion (level lead from LHM + naturally high Avo). The lack of Avoid Supports makes it go down after promotion, but then she also gets Bows to avoid counterattacks on Player Phase, so she manages to slide back up to reasonable levels of durability.
The damage done to Eliwood is not much at all if she’s replacing him, since, as proven, the differences between her and Eliwood are at best marginal. Unless you want to suggest that Eliwood *also* sucks at combat, since they compare about the same, and that’s what would have to be true for you to continue to say that Lyn sucks at combat. And the Funds Rank? I’ve shown why that hardly matters in Kent vs. Erk.
No, they’re with totally different units, so you are indeed basing quite a bit off of Support structure. If it so happens that my team is helped out Supportwise more by Lyn being there (i.e., without her, I would have one or two units without Supports) than by Eliwood being there, then I will be using Lyn. For example, Kent and Florina might lack a second Support, whereas Lowen and Hector might have secondary options that they can turn to if Eliwood is out of the picture. The opposite may also be true, but it depends entirely on what your team needs. Writing it away as “Eliwood is Anima, therefore he wins” isn’t going to cut it here. The simple fact that he possesses an Anima affinity doesn’t mean I get more out of him being on the team and Supporting people. Giving full Supports to units that wouldn’t otherwise have them >>> giving better bonuses to units that would still have full Supports otherwise.
Eliwood is a good unit, you say? There you have it, folks! Lyn must be a good unit as well, if Eliwood is one, since they’re about the same overall (certainly the margin is nowhere near large enough to consider one “bad” and the other “good”). And, also, no, you’re quite wrong. Using someone else for EXP Rank, all I get is wasted kills on a unit that I’m not even using. With using Lyn for EXP Rank, the EXP that I’m using to add to my EXP Rank is actually being used by one of my units. A resource that’s actually put to use while achieving a Rank > one that’s not. So, reasons to use Lyn vs. reasons not to use Lyn: Best earlygame offense + Mani Katti + fast Supports + high AS always + strong 1- and 2- Range options for avoiding counterattacks + high Crit + forced deployment in several chapters + needing to be used to recruit Geitz + possible EXP Rank aid vs. meh concrete durability + average Atk + possible promotion issues. From that, I’d say it’s pretty reasonable for Lyn to be used. And if not, there’s Fiora:
Clever how you manage to poke holes in Fiora’s case as a unit but you neglect to mention her main contribution to your team: flying. Florina and Fiora are clearly your best flyers (the rest all come very late), so one or the other is almost certainly going to make it on the team. Why? Because flying is a function that no other type of unit is able to perform, and it does indeed have merits. I can have a team without a flyer, or I can have a team with one. The option is simple, no complications or anything about it. A team with a flyer can obviously do certain tasks better than one without a flyer. That’s common sense. That flyer has less durability due to not being able to use terrain and having a weakness to Bows, but it adds a unique and quite useful dimension to the team due to being able to bypass terrain, and with high Move to boot. Flyers are, for example, the only units who can successfully cross Mountains with any degree of proficiency. Rivers, long runs of Forested area, etc., also all pop up. I’ll go over some chapters where flying comes in useful after Fiora joins: 19: There are lots of little islands on Dread Isle, and foot units can’t cross over the Rivers very fast (they have to rely on going over the bridge) 19x: Mountains in the topmost corner. Fiora can ferry a unit over to Kishuna to kill him faster or can handle the Pegs that fly in and attack Merlinus from up here 21: Not only is this a chapter with a lot of Wyverns (flyers can intercept them), but there are villages here 23: loldesert 23x: This isn’t a flyer chapter, but Fiora is the highest-Res unit on your team barring magical units, and she can actually do significant damage to the enemies here unlike magical units, so she might be your best candidate for bringing to this chapter 24: Big river, Wyverns in Linus’ version; big mountain range, Wallace in Lloyd’s version 25: Huge Rivers. Monks everywhere that no one else can get to nearly as fast (and you’re most likely not recruiting Farina due to her cost) 26: Wyverns galore. HUGE Mountain Range + a village. 28x: lol, wut. There are big streams and disappearing bridges and good Magic users—flyers are h4x here 29: Mountains + Magic users. Fiora’s big Res and attacking Def rather than Res is most noticeable here 32: Huge Mountains, +around 40 Valkyries here (huge Spd + attacking Def + huge Res = makes Fiora w1n here) In all of those chapters listed, having a flyer >>> not having a flyer. Therefore, Fiora’s combat only needs to be average for her to earn a place on the team (meaning, as long as she doesn’t suck, you should be fielding her). But it’s not average. It’s considerably above average. So she’s got about as much of a chance on the team as Eliwood. In fact, if Lyn really is as bad as you say, then Florina loses quite a bit of value, and thus your best flyer is Fiora, giving her even more reason to be used, since Fiora will have a considerable advantage in Supports. (It doesn’t really matter to Kent, of course, which flyer you use. If you’re using Florina, Lyn is likely to be in play, so he can Suppport her. And if you’re using Fiora, he can outright just Support her. If you’re using both, he gets his pick. Or, if you’re using Heath for some reason, Kent can Support him too, though using him is a rare phenomenon). Then Fiora has high AS (19.0 at 20/1) and good Atk (she gets +5 Atk/20 Crit from Supports, just like Lyn, and Lances and Swords for WTA manipulation, for more w1n). Her defensive parameters are also nowhere near as bad as what you claim—you tried to compare her to Lyn? Her Def at 20/1 with A Florina/B Kent is 12.6 and her Res is 17.6 (easily one of the highest values on the team, and unlike a magical unit, she does a lot more damage to enemy Magic Users), whereas Lyn at that level has 4-5 less Res, 2 less Def, and 3 less HP, as well. To compare to another unit, 20/4 Erk (A Priscilla) has 11.4 Def and 16.8 Res—lol, h4x’d. And that’s with a level lead that he probably won’t even have since Fiora has flying to get more kills and thus close the level gap that exists from her joining underlevelled. Try 20/1, where Erk’s Def is actually _less_ than Lyn’s (it’s 9.8 compared to Lyn’s 10.8) and his Res falls to 15.6. Her Avoid is “barely better than Bartre’s”? Excuse me? 20/1 Bartre (B Raven) has 39. 20/1 Fiora has 52.9, for a 13.9 lead (-1 against Lances, 28.9 lead against Axes and 43.9 against Swords). She can also have +10-12 Avoid if Eliwood, Geitz, or Pent decides to Support her (Pent in particular isn’t unlikely—if you have Erk tied up with both healers like you do, Pent will frequently be going Supportless). So no, Bartre and Fiora are not anywhere near each other in Avo. Yes, Bartre does have an HP lead—however, Bartre also has less than 10 AS before promotion and a comparable amount after, so he, unlike Fiora, can get doubled. Plus, Bartre’s non-Raven Supports (Renault, Karla, Canas, Dorcas) are a lot less likely to be played than Fiora’s Supports (Florina, Kent, Eliwood, Pent, Sain, Geitz). And Fiora has a lot more Res, whereas Bartre has a couple more Def. Also, I notice how you cleverly chose Bartre to compare her defense to and labeled him as a “trash unit.” But Bartre and Dorcas’ problem isn’t durability—their problem is low AS, and Fiora doesn’t have that problem. Your other selection, even more ironically, was Oswin, who has one of the best defenses in the game. Her Def is on par with people like Kent and Sain (one less than A Kent/B Rebecca Sain) and her Res is huge. Yes, she does join underlevelled, but this is also a benefit to the EXP Rank. No, I’m not saying that being h4x for the EXP Rank overrides being underlevelled, but it does indeed make the “omg she’s unusable” aspect go away. Adding to the EXP Rank means that you can use Marcus and Oswin more early on. She doesn’t have Supports? lol, by Dread Isle, Supports haven’t advanced that far, since the early chapters are rather short. Erk x Serra isn’t even at a C by then. And then Fiora’s Supports are indeed quite fast—A Florina is 52 turns and B Kent is 54.
LOL @ both of those quotations. Nice logic there. You’re trying to tell me that since the chance of Eliwood not being played (and Kent therefore being able to get Lyn) is about the same as Sain not being played, Kent can’t have full Supports? I’m afraid it doesn’t work like that. When a unit is in play (in this case it’s Kent), all of that unit’s Supporters have extra reason to be used. For example, if a unit is in Mid Tier normally, and a unit in play really would like a Support with that unit in Mid Tier, the chance of the Mid Tier being played is about the chance of a normal High Tier being played. If this weren’t the case, we would never use anyone outside of the top 12 units, which obviously doesn’t fly. Kent being in play means that Sain has a lot more chance to be in play. It also means that Lyn has a greater chance to be in play. Since this debate is about Kent and Erk, the only units we know are in play for sure *are* Kent and Erk. When you’re sitting there planning team structure, you’re going to try to base as much of your team as possible around these two units’ Supports, provided that their Supports aren’t more negative than they are positive (*cough* like Erk Supporting two healers). And then even your comparison is flawed. For one, you completely forgot Fiora. You included Lyn, but you left out the possibility of Fiora, whom you said was about the same as Lyn? You’re contradicting yourself, buddy. Then, the gap between Eliwood and Lyn isn’t that big. Finally, Eliwood and Sain have quite a difference between them, on any tier list you look. Eliwood is near the bottom of High, and Sain is near the top of High, so you can’t say that the chances of Eliwood not being played is “about the same as Sain not being played.” Kent can have: A Sain/B Fiora, A Sain/B Lyn, A Fiora/B Lyn, or Lyn/B Fiora. Given these options, and the fact that playing Sain is almost a guarantee and that the chance of playing Fiora is quite high, Kent is almost always going to have full Supports, even if you discard Lyn for the most part. Actually, even without a B Support, Kent still wins against Erk. Going back to my 18/0 comparison, 18/0 Kent (A Sain) Klr Lance: 25.8 Atk, 14.6 AS | 34.4 HP, 10.2 Def, 6.2 Res, 41.6 Avo 18/0 Erk (A Priscilla) Thundah: 20.8 Atk, 14.5 AS | 28.0 HP, 6.4 Def, 11.8 Res, 44.1 Avo All that removing a B Support does for Kent, notably, is lower his Atk. He’s still winning defense despite the defensive loss (4 Def, WTA, 6-7 HP >>> 1-2 Range, 3 Avo, and 5 Res, for reasons already covered). Losing Atk by only 5 now, Erk can arguably lead in offense, but the lead that Erk gains here, if there is one, still isn’t going to shift the margin too much. Kent wins against anything with under 5-6 w/WTA in their Def-Res gaps, and as you can see from the samples given in the first post, that's quite a lot, even if a little less than what it would be if he had B Fiora or Lyn. And he still has a 2 Move lead. Kent is definitely going to have a B Support, but removing it doesn’t cause Erk to suddenly win, either. Kent will still win when he doesn’t have it, but when he does have it, the margin will be much greater, and since he’s going to have it the majority of the time, he w1ns by quite a lot.
No, I explained my reasoning behind that, and you even countered it. Clever, trying to make it appear as though I had made a mistake.
The biggest problem with Erk Supporting two healers is that if you’re using two healers in the first place, they’re not going to be concentrated together. Serra wants to heal a unit over on the left and Priscilla wants to heal a unit over on the right. That’s generally the point of having two healers. As the game goes on, you're dividing up your army more and more as maps get much bigger, and you're sending one healer off to each little group, meaning that either Erk loses his Support bonuses (as do the healers) or you have to scrunch together and hurt your Tactics. Your healing force is small, whereas your combat force is quite large. Supporting two combat units doesn’t concatenate any significant portion of the combat force around a single unit, whereas Supporting two healers does indeed cause your entire healing force to be stationed near one unit (Erk), largely defeating the purpose of having two healers in the first place. And then, no, playstyle is indeed quite important in deciding whether to use Serra or Priscilla or both. Using two healers gives me another unit to shield early on, and I lose another shielding/attacking unit. In exchange, I receive benefit to the EXP Rank/more durable units. Oftentimes, there is also only one wound to heal, and either Serra or Priscilla finds herself unable to perform an action that turn. Two healers are also never, for practical purposes, going to heal the same unit, whereas two combat units are going to very often be attacking the same enemy. In this case, Kent can slide in between the two and still be Supporting them, whereas Erk can't. Erk also needs a minimum of 4 units (possibly even 5) to be chained together to Support both his Supporters on the same turn, since they're actually going to be healing other units. Kent, however, only needs a chain of 3 (since the other slots are occupied by the enemies). For Supporting one unit at a time, Erk needs 3, Kent only 2. Another problem with Priscilla is that she isn't very durable, even after promotion. Earlier you mentioned how Lyn has “meh to bad” durability, I believe. If Lyn has bad durability, then what of Priscilla? 20/7 Priscilla (A Erk/B Guy) has 29.4 HP/8.4 Def (68.4 Avo). 20/1 Lyn has 32.3 HP/8.8 Def (59-66 Avo). Lyn beats her in both parameters at 6 levels lower (and that’s not even going to happen if she’s actually played), and then Priscilla’s HP growth is 40, Lyn’s is 70; Priscilla’s Def growth is 15, Lyn’s is 20. Anyway, the point is: Priscilla is pretty frail, especially early on, when she lacks Supports. Having to shield her when she can’t counterattack, therefore, is pretty bad (Lyn at least gets to counterattack the enemy). You have another worthless unit on Enemy Phase, and one that’s even a liability. And you’re using two healers. That means two worthless units on Enemy Phase for quite a while. And even if we were using both healers, what’s to say that they’re both Supporting Erk? The chance of that is definitely not high enough to be considered a guarantee. Erk’s Serra Support is extraordinarily slow, for example. This means that by using Serra and having her Support Erk, you have a unit that goes without full Supports for a while. In fact, let’s see just how slow Erk’s Serra Support is: A Sain = 121 A Lucius = 121 A Hector = 226 A Oswin = 231 A Matthew = 236 A Erk = 239 A Florina = 241 wut All the Supports except for the one with Florina are faster, and Hector, Oswin, and Matthew start several chapters earlier? h4x. Yes, Erk has Thunder affinity—no, one is impressed. See, while Priscilla fails at durability, Serra’s main problem is offense. She loses a constant -1 AS from your basic Lightning tome, and her Mag at 20/1 is 12.5. She attacks Res, but using the weakest type of tome (Light) and getting little Atk from Supports make her offense quite borderline a lot of the time. So if she’s Supporting Erk for a B, the most she can get from her other Supports is +1 Atk (without Supporting Erk she can make that +2, and the other Support will be guaranteed to be faster except in the case of Florina). “she can’t use offensive bonusez before promotion” Indeed, but this is entirely irrelevant, especially since we’re talking about her Support with Erk. Serra isn’t even likely to have C Erk until about the time where she’d be promoting (she’s one of your highest-levelled units, so she’ll be one of the earliest to promote), so Erk’s defensive bonuses aren’t even in play before promotion. Priscilla . . . Erk’s Support with Priscilla is indeed at a good speed. There’s another problem here, however—Priscilla has one of the best Support lists in the entire game. This means that virtually everyone wants to Support her. Even if Erk is the best, the difference between, say, Erk and Raven, is marginal at best (Ice vs. Thunder Affinity, about the same speed except that Erk is a few chapters earlier—one of which is the 7-turn Talons Alight, another of which is False Friends, during which they’re not together). Then Lucius, Guy, Heath, Oswin, and Sain might all want Supports, and she’s not overly likely to refuse any of them. Sometimes the Erk Support might only go to a B, for example, if she wants to A someone else. For one final problem with Erk Supporting two healers—remember that 1-2 Range that you tote so much? It means that Erk is taking less points of HP damage than direct attackers are (he also has lower HP/Def, so he basically needs that to keep anything near decent durability, in case you wanted to say “just don’t attack indirectly” or something). That means that the chance of Priscilla/Serra healing Erk is a great deal less than the chance of them healing someone like, say, Sain. While this isn’t _huge_, it does damage the speed at which the Supports can build, and given Erk’s already-slow Serra Support, that’s an issue. So, in the face of these facts, Erk is not going to get both Serra and Priscilla most of the time. Even if both are in play, only one might be willing to Support with him. Therefore, sometimes he has C Serra, sometimes A Priscilla, and sometimes A Priscilla/C Serra at the levels posted. I was assuming A Priscilla as an average of these (even though in reality it’s tilted closer to the former than the latter due to Serra’s level lead, so we’re still being quite generous to Erk).
Erk with a level lead? That’s highly unlikely. Erk joins several chapters after Kent does in LHM, and Kent can expect to have a substantial lead on him coming out of LHM. “but you completely control LHM EXP flow” Indeed, but that doesn’t mean that Kent and Erk are going to come out at the same level. If Erk needs to take others’ kills to come out at equal levels with everyone else, that’s obviously a bad thing. That’s similar to giving Kent a Energy Ring or an Angelic Robe or something, though on a different scale. By the time Erk joins in LHM, Kent has already gained several levels. Enemy concentration in LHM is relatively the same no matter what chapter you’re playing on, but earlier on, there are fewer units, so Kent is getting quite a bit of EXP. He probably has a 4-5 level lead on Erk when Erk joins. You could justify Erk’s level lead if EXP flow in LHM were infinite (in which case I could also justify Kent having a huge level lead, so that’s moot anyway), but it’s not, so by LHM Chapter 10, Kent is already 3 or so levels above Erk. Then Erk has two chapters in HHM to make up the deficit. One is a Defend Chapter, and for the other, he isn’t even present for the entirety of the chapter (most of it, sure, but he misses a few turns). If anything, I was being generous in assuming that they maintained equal levels. If you’ll notice, it’ll actually be Kent that has the higher level (probably by 2, since Erk is overlevelled for False Friends/Talons Alight, and will likely only gain 1 level combined there), so your comparison is indeed quite flawed. And Kent’s greater Move allows him to maintain that higher level and possibly even increase it, as reaching more enemies = killing more enemies. And I notice you also have Erk with C Priscilla. Aside from the fact that Priscilla might not want to Support Erk/be on the team, there’s another major problem with this: turns. Priscilla doesn’t get to rejoin the main team in False Friends until the chapter is nearly over, so they can barely Support there. Then they effectively have Talons Alight together. C Priscilla is 22 turns. Talons Alight is limited to 7 turns, and you most likely aren’t going to be Supporting every turn out of those 7 (when it comes down to attacking an enemy or Supporting your partner, you’re going to choose attacking an enemy). So by the time Kent joins, Erk has 5 or so turns at the very best built up with Priscilla. But wait . . . ! Kent’s Sain Support is 71 turns to A. Erk’s Priscilla Support is 76 turns to A. The difference is exactly 5 turns. So much for Erk’s earlier Support advantage. And then Kent and Sain are both mounted, making it easier for them to Support (if Sain is 4 spaces away from Kent, for example, and Kent wants to attack an enemy 3 spaces away, Sain and Kent can still Support that turn). Kent can also Support Lyn if she’s being used, and needless to say that’s _way_ faster than Erk’s Serra Support—it’s also 1 turn faster than his Priscilla Support. So Erk having C Priscilla (22 turns) while Kent doesn’t at least have a C Sain (17 turns) is quite a preposterous notion. Rewriting your comparisons, we come up with this: 12/0 Erk, C Priscilla: 9.4 Atk, 12.5 AS – 24.1 HP, 4.2 Def, 8.4 Res, 33.3 Avoid 13/0 Kent, C Sain: 11.8 Atk, 12.4 AS – 30.2 HP, 8.0 Def, 4.0 Res, 31.2 Avo The situation is quite different now. Matched in AS, and Kent is winning Atk by 3. Then a Fire Tome has 5 Mt. whereas an Iron Lance has 7 Mt., so tack on another 2 Atk for Kent. So Kent’s Atk lead is already 5 here. The only things with over 6 more Def than Res at this point are Knights and some Cavaliers (Wyverns don’t exist yet), so Erk wins against those while Kent wins against everything else. And then there is also WTA, as well, not to mention that Kent has Armorslayer available to tie up the gap between Knights. Offensive w1nn4r = Kent. Then for durability, that’s obvious. 4 Def, 6 HP, and WTA vs. 2 Avoid/4 Res? The former is clearly preferable. You yourself said this later on in your debate post:
If Magic users are “almost nonexistent,” then Erk’s Res lead amounts to about nothing, whereas Kent’s Def and HP leads are still quite relevant. So Kent is winning. It doesn’t have to be a comparison at 18/0, as you can see. And that’s only if Kent’s level lead is 1. From LHM it should be 3 or so, and then Erk can reduce it by 1 in HHM, and then Kent has greater Move to gain more levels that way, so it may be even worse for Erk. And that’s considering that Lyn isn’t in play, otherwise he’d also have a C Lyn by now. Now, for 1-2 Range. You made a case about this, but you almost entirely ignored mine, claiming that you “didn’t understand” what I was trying to say. I thought that at least for this debate you’d avoid spewing bull. Apparently not. Let’s address this:
Kent can equip a Javelin and have much the same effect. If the situation is dire enough that neither wants to be attacked, then Oswin can Trade with Kent and have him equip a Javelin so that he’s not attacked either, meanwhile sacrificing no Atk on Player Phase. You say that Kent using a Javelin sacrifices offense? But if 1-2 Range is used to avoid being attacked anyway (as it is in the case that you mentioned), neither is attacking, so it doesn’t even matter. At all. Also, there is the chance that the enemy will go after Erk anyway. Very often the AI doesn’t care about taking a counterattack and will go after a less durable unit either way. Especially if the only nearby unit is one like Oswin, to whom they’d do 0 damage. To Kent with Javelin, however, the case is different. Kent has greater concrete durability than Erk does, so if the choice is between ranged Kent and nonranged Oswin, there’s an even greater chance of the enemy choosing Oswin over Kent than there is of it choosing Oswin over Erk. There’s almost no durability advantage on Enemy Phase for Erk’s Magic.
And in exchange for this, Kent has a concrete durability lead. “Both dying in 3 hits” is rarely going to happen. At the levels posted above: 12/0 Erk, C Priscilla: 9.4 Atk, 12.5 AS – 24.1 HP, 4.2 Def, 8.4 Res, 33.3 Avoid 13/0 Kent, C Sain: 11.8 Atk, 12.4 AS – 30.2 HP, 8.0 Def, 4.0 Res, 31.2 Avo A 13 Atk enemy kills Kent in 7 hits, Erk in 3. Erk needs to take 4 less attacks than Kent to be able to match Kent. There are several impediments to this, and I’ll list them all succinctly this time, so you can’t ignore them again: 1.) Enemies can attack several times on Enemy Phase, only once on Player Phase. Both take damage on Enemy Phase, so Erk’s 1-2 Range advantage is nonexistent there. 2.) Kent might OHKO the enemy. In this case, he takes no damage on Player Phase, just like Erk. This also erases Erk’s 1-2 Range advantage. 3.) Kent might be wielding Javelin on Player Phase, in which case Erk’s durability lead disappears for 1-2 Range. And the more Kent starts to 2HKO, the more he can use Javelin (and later Hand Axe). 4.) As stated, Kent dies in 7 hits from this enemy. Erk dies in 3. Even if Erk’s 1-2 Range capabilities somehow did allow him to take 4 less attacks than Kent, Kent would be winning durability. The chance of 7 hits hitting Kent is a lot less than the chance of 3 hits hitting Erk. A 100-Hit enemy has ~69, 82.3% real on Kent and ~67, 78.55% chance to hit Erk. The chance of Kent getting hit by all 7 attacks (death) is 25.6%. The chance of Erk getting hit by all 3 attacks (death) is 48.46%. h4x’d/10 Do you think what you said counters those 4 points at all? Because they were in my last post and you never addressed them. I don’t blame you for ignoring these points. You have to in order for Erk to win durability, which is a part of your case. However, I’m not an idiot— I’m not going to fall for the typical “I don’t get what ur sayin, let’s look at it this way” type deal.
As much as Erk wants to go Super Saiyan, I’m afraid that you need to have a power level of at least 9,000 to get there, and his power level is quite a fair degree under 9,000. Kent has competition for Knight Crests but Erk doesn’t for Guiding Rings? Are you joking? Lucius, Serra, and Priscilla are all sure candidates to want that first Guiding Ring as well. While Erk has a level lead on Lucius, Lucius gains a C in Staves at promotion, better than Erk’s E by far, and his Mag to use such Staves is higher despite being at a lower level. 13/0 Lucius beats 15/0 Erk by 3 Mag, and Lucius gets 2 more Mag from his promotion than Erk does from his own, adding to a total of +5 over Erk. If it’s a good idea to promote Erk early due to Staves, it’s an even better idea to promote Lucius early, due to his better Staff level and higher Mag. Then there is, of course, the fact that YOU have me using both Serra and Priscilla, as Erk’s Supports. Gaining attacking > gaining healing, since that makes your healers no longer useless on Enemy Phase (the comparative gain of staff utility is nowhere near as large, especially for a unit who starts with an E like Erk does). Even if that weren’t true, however, Serra and Priscilla also earn an EXP bonus, unlike Erk. Gaining attacking and an EXP bonus >>> gaining Staves at an E Rank. So both Serra AND Priscilla also want to jump onto this “promoting early” boat. The only one who doesn’t want to, arguably, is Canas. For Serra, it isn’t even really “promoting early," since she has a higher level than most of your team. Serra sees a lot of use in LHM, due to Nils. In LHM, the enemy concentration is low, so your attacking units don’t need to be Nils’d. However, PC Avoid is not high by any means, and enemies are wielding Iron rather than Steel, so you’re getting hit in LHM quite a lot, which means that the need for extra healing _does_ exist. Therefore, Serra is going to be getting Nils’d a lot, and is going to end up at a high level. By the end of LHM, level 10 or 11 is not out of the question, and then level 20 by Chapter 18 is perfectly natural. Or, if she's level 8-9 by the end of LHM, then 18-19 by Chapter 18, she still wants to promote before Erk since she can’t continue to gain many more levels without doing so. The first Guiding Ring is in Chapter 18; the second, in Chapter 20. Two of Lucius, Serra, and Priscilla are almost always going to take those first 2, so Erk gets stuck with the third, which is in Chapter 23. By Chapter 23, Erk is so ridiculously close to 20/0 anyway (if not *at* 20/0) that the notion of “promoting early” becomes impossible, unless you’re keeping Erk underlevelled, but that would only hurt him. Kent is actually in a better relative situation than Erk is in regards to promoting early. First, he can actually promote in LHM, before the HHM campaign even starts. Second, the first Knight Crest found in the actual campaign is in Whereabouts Unknown, Chapter 17, before you get your first Guiding Ring. Finally, his competition’s promotions are not better than his own, unlike in Erk’s case. Sain and Lowen gain the exact same benefits that Kent gains, and Kent can expect to have a level lead over Lowen from LHM. Oswin is the only one that can be argued, as he has a higher level (not by much, though, since Kent has LHM and Oswin is already gaining less EXP than everyone else other than Marcus). When they both promote on time: 18/0 Kent (A Sain/B Lyn or B Fiora) Irn Lance: 24.8 Atk, 123.5 Hit, 19.3 Crit, 14.6 AS | 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 46.6 Avo Javelin: 23.8 Atk, 108.5 Hit, 19.3 Crit, 12.6 AS | 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 42.6 Avo Stl Sword: 25.8 Atk, 118.5 Hit, 19.3 Crit, 13.6 AS | 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 44.6 Avo Klr Lance: 27.8 Atk, 118.5 Hit, 49.3 Crit, 14.6 AS | 34.4 HP, 11.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 46.6 Avo 18/0 Erk (A Priscilla) Fiyah: 17.8 Atk, 126.7 Hit, 21.4 Crit, 15.5 AS | 28.0 HP, 6.4 Def, 11.8 Res, 46.1 Avo Thundah: 20.8 Atk, 116.7 Hit, 26.4 Crit, 14.5 AS | 28.0 HP, 6.4 Def, 11.8 Res, 44.1 Avo h4x I’ve already covered why Kent wins in this comparison in the first post, and you never countered it, so there’s no need to cover it again. Of course, this was also being generous to Erk in assuming that Kent didn’t have a level lead, but Kent still wins anyway, so it doesn’t matter. In the rare event that Erk *does* promote early, however, Kent has LHM promotion to counter it. Let’s fix your comparison:
Firstly, Kent only has a C Support while Erk has a B with Priscilla? That’s totally out of the question since Erk only has False Friends and Talons Alight (lol, 7 turns) with her. Secondly, you still have Erk with a level lead of two levels. That’s also ridiculous, as noted. Thirdly, you again include that “or” clause in there. Kent isn’t going to have one or the other; he’ll have both (unless he’s waiting for Fiora). Fourth, Kent himself can promote in LHM. Taking all that into consideration, let’s do a rewrite: 15/1 Erk, B Priscilla: 12.6 Att, 14.0 AS--30.1 Hp, 8.8 Def, 13.6 Res, 40.2 Avo, 16 crit (21 w/ Thunder), Res hitting, 1-2 range, Staves 12/3 Kent, B Sain/B Lyn: 16.2 Att, 13.9 AS--33.0 Hp, 12.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 52.4 Avo, 6.3 crit, full Weapon Triangle, 2 Move So, Kent is obviously winning defenses, with a Def/HP lead, more Avo, and constant WTA now due to all three weapons. He’s winning offense, as well—they have the same AS but Kent has a 4 Atk boost normally and an 7 Atk boost when you consider weaponry (go Axes). Enemies *do not* have 8+ in their average Def-Res gaps, as mentioned many times, so Kent takes the lead there. And then there’s +2 Move. w1nn4r? Kent. I don’t really need to rewrite your other comparisons; it follows logically that if by rewriting one of them we can come up with Kent winning, we can do the same to the others (you just basically made one base comparison and posted it at different levels, so I only need to counter one). And even if not, it doesn’t matter, as this situation doesn’t represent the majority of the time—which is a normal promotion. In that case, view my first post, please. Kent wins when it’s a normal promotion by even more than he’s winning here, so it doesn’t even make a difference.
No, it’s not even close to being countered by staff EXP. A level 15/0 Erk gets 20 EXP from killing a level 12 enemy. A level 15/1 Erk gets 7 EXP from killing a level 12 enemy. He lost 13 EXP from a single kill. A Heal Staff gives promoted Erk 5 EXP, and a Mend Staff gives him 6. Even in two turns, with one heal and one kill, I still haven’t made up the deficit from promoting. So this Erk actually grows a lot slower than an unpromoted Erk, allowing an unpromoted Kent to gain a substantial level lead. He can hit 20/1 by the time a 15/1 Erk has reached 15/3-4 or something, and then obviously Kent is going to win that comparison. Maybe you should check your statements first next time?
That logic can be applied when they share the same functions, but in this case, they don’t. Erk has Staves and Kent has h4x mobility, and neither of those do they share in common. Therefore, the relative value of each is indeed important—if Erk is one of the worst Staff Users, and Kent is one of the best mounted units, Kent has a lead already. The value of Staves themselves? Two Staff users early on already have trouble healing every single turn. You add on a third, and now you have three Staff users, with one frequently doing nothing at all. You also have both of the other important Staff Users (Serra and Priscilla) Supporting Erk, so Erk adding Staves doesn’t spread out your possible Staff Range—it just makes it so that you have one more Staff user where there were already two gathered together. lol And then there’s Lucius, which makes 4. On the very basis of how much you need combat vs. how much you need Staves, and what Rank Erk starts in with Staves, we can already see that his Staves are diminished in value by quite a lot. In fact, they’re almost entirely worthless—you seldom need to add on a third Staff User when you already have two, let alone a fourth when you have three. As for when he promotes later on . . . well, I’ve already demonstrated how Erk fares with Staves then. He promotes to gain an E, easily the worst of the lot barring Canas, and his Mag is lower than everyone’s except Renault’s. Two Move does indeed matter, by the way. Miscellaneous utility functions such as rescuing and visiting villages are important, and mounted units obviously >>> nonmounted units for completing them (they can Move Again after visiting villages and have more Move itself), and if Kent is the best of the mounted units, as shown, that means that he’s the number one candidate in the whole game to perform such tasks. h4x. Erk can never claim to be number one in anything at all (while his durability is greater than Priscilla's, it's arguable against Serra, and he still loses in Staff Rank to both). Finally, even if 2 Move didn’t qualify as a separate function, it does indeed help offense, as it allows Kent to reach and therefore kill more enemies than Erk can. So if you view Staves as adding on to Erk’s durability and mobility as adding on to Kent’s offense, those cancel out and you’re left with Kent’s already-superior defense and offense. In that case, Kent wins. Staves don’t change this debate much at all.
Guy alone makes up the Tactics deficit in subsequent chapters. He can reliably kill anything in one round after he gets his hands on some Killing Edges (~96% chance to land a crit once on a double, and he doubles everything), including bosses. This means that you’re progressing through chapters much faster. So much faster that the Tactics Rank is not even hurt—rather, it’s helped. There isn’t only Guy, after all—most physical units benefit from the upgrade to Killer. Sain/Lyn/Florina/etc, both thanks to the Atk boost and the Crit boost.
o rly?
This is what you said earlier in your post. And, unlike in my comparison, which was Staves vs. h4x mobility, neither of which Kent and Erk have in common, you’re comparing an outside unit’s direct attacking capability to Erk’s. If Kent is better at combat than Erk (and he is), Erk being better than Marcus is hardly relevant.
Promoted Kent can indeed move through Mountains as well. Your point? As for 30 Avoid . . . not only is gaining that impractical, but Kent does indeed have a relevant counter to it—Reavers. A Reaver weapon gives him +30 Avoid against enemies. And they’re buyable. h4x. No, they’re not in constant use, since they only have 15 uses, but they’re certainly in use more often than Erk’s “lol I Movez into the mountains to become a hermit,” which sums to about 0.1% total value, especially after Kent can do it too, which is just past the promotion point. Reavers can, in fact, make durability a completely laughable comparison (30 Avoid lets things have 0 or near to 0% hit chance on Kent very often, and it increases his Def also), and Erk doesn’t have access to them while Kent does. Point for Kent. And, actually, Erk can’t even win Move in Forests before promotion. If they’re crossing 1 Forest, Kent’s 7 Move is reduced to 4, Erk’s 5 Move to 3, so Kent’s winning. If they’re crossing 2, Kent’s 7 Move is reduced to 1, Erk’s 5 to 1, so they’re tying. Neither can even cross 3 until promotion, at which point Erk can claim a win. However, that win is incredibly marginal—when would you _ever_ want to move through three Forests? It’s highly impractical. Kent would still be winning in the most common situation—that is to say, if they both want to get through to 1 space of Forest to use its defensive bonuses.
Apparently the term “Kishuna” doesn’t mean anything to you? There are more Kishuna Chapters (3) than there are desert chapters (1), and Erk can hardly take any actions in those chapters all, whereas Kent certainly can in the desert chapter (Wyverns fly outside the sand area, and there are Cavaliers there as well).
No. See, promoting also gives Kent +Axes, +1 Move, and +2 Con, in addition to +2 Def and “2 level ups.” That is indeed pretty nice. The Con is useful for not losing AS from weaponry (0 AS loss now from Javelin, ftmw), and I don’t have to illustrate why 1 Move is useful; then Axes round out Kent’s WTA so that he pretty much has a constant +15 early on and an Atk boost to boot (plus he’s even cheaper nao, moar w1n). And you save 10k in the main game, even more w1n. So it is indeed significant, and Kent can do it while Erk cannot. As proven in the comparison, LHM-promoted Kent can handle early-promoted Erk without a problem, so if anything Kent’s LHM promotion serves to balance Erk’s potential early promotion (or, if you don't LHM-promote Kent, he gains levels faster and then catches up and wins anyway, as illustrated), and then you’re left with a normal promotion, where Kent easily wins. To conclude, this is pretty easily Kent’s win. When they both promote like normal units, Kent dominates, as demonstrated in the first post. He wins offense due to a huge Atk lead that the Def-Res gap on enemies can’t fix, and he wins defense due to more concrete durability (and I’ve shown why this is > 1-2 Range in both posts, and you never contested my points). When they don’t promote like normal units, which is rare for Erk, Kent still wins—the margin is just less. If Kent wins either way, and the way by which he wins moar is the more common way to use them, then Kent easily takes the cake overall. Your entire case is based on Erk having a nonsensical level lead, Kent not getting full Supports, a promotion time frame that occurs only about 10% of the time, if that, and the assumption that a 15/1 Erk gains EXP at the same rate as a 13/0 Kent. lol wut Kent >>> Erk |
| this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER | |
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| C475_1337 | Dec 10 2007, 04:41 PM Post #5 |
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One serious d00d
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damn, u caught me, lol
A 4-5 level lead for Kent when Erk joins in LHM? Kent has 4 chapters before Erk joins, and there’s barely even 4-5 enemies in half of those chapters, and it’s 3-4 kills to get a level up, and Kent’s sharing his kills with Sain, Lyn, and possibly others. Taking that into account I would expect maybe three levels gained; of the 4 chapters, only #4 has enough enemies to go around at all. Once Erk joins, he has priority for any kills that he can make over the others such as Kent, because his Exp gains are higher. Every kill made by Erk brings me closer to another level of stats than a kill made by Kent would have; when the choice is presented, it’s more efficient to give the kill to Erk. Yes, the difference is very small, as I’m sure you’ll point out, but it’s still a difference, and there’s no counter-reason to give Kent the kill. The most efficient way to distribute the Exp is to distribute it as evenly as possible. And since, like you said, you can mostly if not completely control who gets what kills in LHM, there will be plenty of opportunities for that to take effect. So overall I’d most certainly expect them to come out on the same level, but then Erk has two chapters in HHM which Kent doesn’t, and thus he’s on the higher level when Kent rejoins in HHM. Erk has chapters which Kent doesn’t in HHM, and it’s the opposite in LHM, but the gap created in LHM can and will be solved without issue before LHM is done, and LHM combat performance has no relevance, so the lead Kent has for a while there means nothing. However, since HHM is the mode being debaeted, Erk has a small lead there which *does* matter while it exists. Ofcourse, it quickly goes away, so it has little significance overall, but it does rather defeat the notion of Kent ever being the one with a higher level, except when he promotes in LHM. Also: Lundgren abuse is necessary to get 19xx, and Erk is better able than Kent to partake in that. On average Kent has to be L13 in order to hurt Lundgren w/ the Javelin, while Erk only needs to be L5 to hurt him w/ Fire, or can even hurt him at base level w/ Thunder. There’s only one space that melee units can attack Lundgren from, and Lyn and probably others want some too, so Kent has to share with them, while Erk can hit Lundgren from range and not care. Even if Kent could hurt Lundgren w/ Javelin, his accuracy with it is considerably less than Erk’s w/ either of his two tomes, so Erk would still get more out of the process.
Right now it’s pretty much only Oswin who can regularly take zero damage, and even he can still be hurt by alot of things, and no one has reliable Avo. The only way there’s only one unit to heal alot of the time is if there’s only one unit attacking in the first place, but that’s a ridiculous notion when you’re fielding not 1, but rather 8 or so attackers. Most people take counters, or take them most of the time, and then some also get attacked on enemy phase, and pplz have a significant chance of taking damage both times, and there’s probably atleast 4-5 units attacking on most turns, more on some turns if you can manage it; since this is still early on and individual offense isn’t good yet, I need way more attackers to kill the same number of enemies compared to what I’d have to use later on in the game. Observe: If I have 3 enemies, Guy can kill one, then Lowen/Eliwood have to gang up to kill one, and Hector/Rebecca have to double-team in order to get the last one, then that’s 5 units just to take out a mere 3 enemies, and they’re all taking counters except Rebecca, and again, no one has reliable Avo early on, not even Guy. So yeah, lol @ healers not having anything to heal.
A 5-6 Att lead for Kent? I find that to be quite excessive. 11.8 – 9.4 = 2.4, not 3, for starters. anyway The gap in natural Pow starts off as the same, then when the level gap closes, Kent gets +1, and then when he gets C Sain around the same time, he gets another +1. As for weapons, why would you only consider Fire? That’s like me ignoring Kent’s considerable arsenal, instead pretending that the only weapon he can use is the Iron Sword, and then saying Erk has more Mt from weapons because Thunder has 8 Mt while Iron Sword has 5. Thunder exists, and Erk even rejoins from LHM with a copy of it, so Kent’s not getting any kind of base Mt advantage from his weapons. So at best, Kent can expect a 2 point lead in raw Att. That goes up to 3 against sword enemies, and axe enemies in certain situations, but at the same time, there’s the chapters before he builds up that 2 base lead to consider, so it still comes out to about 2 overall. That means he has an Att lead against……Soldiers and Peg Knights, both of which Erk kills anyway. Erk, on the other hand, has the advantage against most of everything else, Knights and Cavs in particular. The only time Kent edges out any kind of damage lead which matters at all is possibly against Myrmidons (one of the very few enemies Erk can’t kill), and it’s achieved only by using the Steel Lance, which is a bad idea if there’s other enemies around against which the cuts to AS/Hit would hurt him, so even that is situational atbest. And even when it’s happens, it’s only liek 2 more damage for Kent, which probably won’t matter anyway. Erk’s winning situations, however, feature a much more noticeable difference. A 10 damage lead (5 per hit) against Cavaliers is the difference between one-rounding and not one-rounding, for example. Unlike Kent’s win against Myrmidons or w/e, that’s actually significant, and its significance is also constant rather than situational. Erk also does more damage to nearly all of the rest, and depending on the enemies’ stats, Kent may not be able to one-round some of those other things, such as Brigands, but Erk consistently will.
Nah, you can’t just ignore 1-2 range for Erk. That’s no better than me claiming that Erk wins because it’s “WTA vs. 2 Avo/4 Res/1-2 range,” and totally ignoring Kent’s Hp and Def leads. 1-2 range makes it a close race atbest; Kent takes less damage per hit, but has to take more hits overall. Putting them both on L13: If they don’t get attacked on enemy phase, that means an auto-win for Erk. Erk simply doesn’t take damage that round, while Kent gets countered. This is obvious. If they get attacked once on enemy phase, Erk takes less damage that round so long as the enemy has 12 Att or more, which it will. Taking 17 Att, Kent gets countered for 9, then attacked again for 9, for a total of 18. Erk gets attacked for 12.6 once. Taking Kent’s Hp lead into account, that means Erk has ~4 more Hp when the enemy phase begins, and they have the same Hp on the start of the next player phase. Kent can only claim a win if the enemy has under 15 Att, which is pretty rare. If they get attacked twice on enemy phase, Erk *still* takes less damage so long as the enemy has 16 Att or more, which should be the case more often than not. However, Kent’s Hp lead means he should have a bit more Hp left anyway, so he wins here. If they get attacked 3 times on enemy phase, Kent would definitely win, but he has a chance to die if the enemy has 16 Att or more, so odds are that you aren’t letting this happen anyway. Kent’s WTA gets him another point of Def in some situations, but at the same time, against ranged enemies, Erk is less likely to be attacked. As you can see, the advantage for either side is entirely situational. It’s not a clear win for either one at all.
This situation turns it from “5 Hp, 4 Def, and WTA vs not taking counters & discouraging ranged enemies,” to “5 Hp, 4 Def, and WTA vs not taking counters & not making another unit waste their turn,” which is a win for Erk. Allowing another unit to actually do something is similar to the effect of a dancer. Ofcourse, in this situation Kent can pick the unit whose turn he wants to waste, which is the opposite of a dancer choosing whose turn they want to refresh, but it’s still a very significant disadvantage.
In order to have Javelin equipped on enemy phase, Kent must either attack with it on player phase, which *does* sacrifice offense, or have someone trade it to top of his inventory, which was covered above.
What? No, the AI is not inconsistent like that. The only thing that takes precedence over not being countered is killing someone, so if Erk could possibly die to that individual enemy’s attack, then yes, they’d go for him over Oswin. Otherwise no.
If Kent equips Javelin, then this is true, but that doesn’t eliminate the disadvantage, it just passes it into another form, so w/e. Objectively it’s the same, or probably worse if he’s wasting someone else’s turn. If Kent doesn’t equip Javelin, then Erk has an advantage anytime ranged enemies are around, which is certainly often enough to be significant.
That’s only happening, if ever, against magic enemies, where Erk wins anyway.
14 Kent C Sain w/ Javelin: 17 Att, 11 AS, 94 hit 14 Erk C Priscilla w/ Thunder: 18 Att, 12.5 AS, 110 hit, Res hitting It’s now superior defense for Kent, except maybe vs Axes, against an even larger offense win for Erk. Considering that Javelin use made the defense go from “neutral” to “Kent wins,” whereas it made the offense go from “Erk wins” to “Erk wins even more,” it’s pretty clear that the offensive gap is more significant.
13 Atk is rarely if ever seen on the enemies. A Merc or Myrm w/ Iron Sword can have 13 (or maybe a Slim Lance Peg? Not sure), but that’s about it.
Okay, let’s roll with a single AS value which favors our own unit. My counter: How do they perform, for example, against a 40 Att enemy? Both are OHKO’d, so Erk wins, because he doesn’t have to take its counter, while Kent does, so Kent can only attack it with the crappy Javelin. “but enemies dun have 40 att” Obviously not. Nor do they always have 13 Att.
Naw, you only need 1337 power level, and erk gets dat easily.
Only if they’re in play. Serra and Priscilla are, but Lucius most likely isn’t. Not so much because he sux, but more because of this: When a unit is in play (in this case it’s Kent), all of that unit’s Supporters have extra reason to be used. For example, if a unit is in Mid Tier normally, and a unit in play really would like a Support with that unit in Mid Tier, the chance of the Mid Tier being played is about the chance of a normal High Tier being played. If this weren’t the case, we would never use anyone outside of the top 12 units, which obviously doesn’t fly. Kent being in play means that Sain has a lot more chance to be in play. It also means that Lyn has a greater chance to be in play. The same principle works in reverse here. When Kent is in play, you want him to be supported, so you have more reason to use Sain and Lyn. Likewise, when Erk/Serra/Prissy are all in play, you don’t want pplz promoting later than usual, so you have more reason to not use Lucius or Canas. Combined with the fact that Lucius isn’t especially likely to be in play to begin with, that means he’s almost certainly not used in the scenario of Erk + 2 healers being used.
If you’re interested in gaining a healer who can counterattack, you’ll notice that promoting Erk turns him into one, just like promoting one of the other two would have done for them, so there goes that argument. Priscilla’s not even going to be at L10 when the first Ring shows up, so w/e @ her. Now, promoting Erk increases your total number of healers from 2 to 3, which promoting Serra does not. Given that I’ve only got 2 healers but about 8 or something attackers, I’d much prefer to have a new healer over a new attacker. I have plenty who can attack already, whereas there are comparatively few who can perform the also-useful function of healing; Erk promoting increases my healing power by 50%, whereas promoting Serra increases my attacking power by alot less (assuming 8 attackers already, 12.5%). With 4 times as many attackers as I have healers, it’s quite obviously the attackers who are going to have trouble all finding something to target, not the healers.
Giving her 1 level per chapter, she hits 20 in Dragon’s Gate. Perfect timing for the second Ring. You can obviously argue that she’s growing faster than 1 level per chapter, but there’s reasoning to support the opposite viewpoint aswell (5 and 6 in LHM have no Nils and very few enemies; 13x is only 7 turns so she can’t possibly gain 100 Exp there; etc), so w/e.
If an LHM-promoted Kent was 12 by the end of Ch. 10, then Erk is at 13 in Ch. 14. Not that I agree that Kent should be L12 at the end of LHM (I consider 10 to be pushing it already), but, it doesn’t really matter as long as Erk is given an unnaturally high level aswell. Thus, Erk is 15 upon Kent rejoining in Noble Lady: 15 Erk: 10.6 Att, 14.0 Spd—26.2 Hp, 4.8 Def, Res hitting, 1-2 range 12/1 Kent: 11.4 Att, 13.0 Spd—31.3 Hp, 9.8 Def, WT, move The concrete defense is now a 5 Hp/5 Def initial lead which is going to get smaller, instead of a 3-4 Hp/3 Def initial lead which gets bigger. Kent has about 1 more Att and the same AS if Erk uses Thunder, which is a clear win for Erk overall. Kent now has Axes, which is pretty cool. Overall, Kent has improved, but this is simply an arguable scenario now (offense vs defense), as opposed to a clear win for Erk when Kent didn’t promote in LHM. Now consider that Erk is quite a bit better for the Exp rank than Kent, and Erk clearly wins again. And since Erk’s better for Exp rank, he’s got priority over Kent for kills again, on top of higher natural Exp gains, and this is early enough that those higher Exp gains are quite noticeable. Liek, the 20 Exp vs 7 Exp thing that you posted later. However, Erk’s sharing this status of “better to give kills to than Kent” with pretty much everyone else sans Marcus, so it won’t matter *that* much……probably it’s liek, 1 level for Kent for every 1.5 that Erk gets, or something. So when Erk promotes under this scenario: 18/1 Erk C Priscilla: 12.8 Att, 15.5 Spd—32.0 Hp, 8.4 Def, 13.8 Res, 41.1 Avo, Res hitting, 1-2 range, staves 12/2-3 Kent C Sain C Lyn: 14.0 Att, 13.7 Spd—32.1 Hp, 11.2 Def, 6.2 Res, 36.9 Avo, WT, move Kent’s phailing, just like he would be if he’d stayed unpromoted. His Hp lead disappeared, and his Def lead was reduced from 4 to 3, which means Erk is now the one winning durability unless they get attacked by 3 or more enemies on the enemy phase, which remains a fairly unlikely scenario. Offensively there’s no contest, Res hitting vs 1 Att is a w1n for Erk, and Erk’s considerably faster aswell. On top of that, Erk’s actually going to close that level gap and eventually be on a higher level himself, due to staff Exp which Kent doesn’t have.
Naw, it can cause phailure of the LHM funds rank, so that you only get a Blue Gem instead of a White. A White Gem is worth 10K more than a Blue Gem, so it would come out to be the same, or if you get a Red Gem, you actually lose funds. But w/e, funds shouldn’t be much of an issue anyway.
This would be accurate in the beginning, when it’s liek L10 Kent vs L7 enemies, but Erk isn’t promoted during that time either, so w/e. Then PCs continue to level up, but enemy levels stay largely the same. 15 Kent killing a L8 enemy is only 8 Exp. 15/1 Erk killing that same enemy gets 6. The difference between Kent and Erk there is less than half the Exp gained by a single casting of Heal. Erk and Kent can both partake in the combat Exp, and Kent gets slightly more from it, but Erk can also heal when you don’t need additional attackers, which is pretty often the case with so many attackers floating around. So it comes out to be the same.
no u
You’re right in saying that they don’t share the same functions. Well actually, they do share the function of attacking, but then Erk has a second function in the form of staves, while Kent has no second function at all. There isn’t anything on Kent’s side to compare staves to. Maybe if Kent could Dance or Steal or something. However, he can’t. Using his Move as a match for Staves doesn’t work out, because Erk can Move too, but Kent can’t use Staff at all. Attacking adds offense to the team, while healing adds defense; both Erk and Kent are adding offense to the team, but Erk’s the only one of the two who is also adding defense. In addition to Erk taking hits himself, he can allow any unit you choose to take additional hits after being injured. Kent has nothing like this, and it can’t be pretended that he does. The best he can do is Rescue injured units out of the fray, which is a pitiful imitation atbest. Point: Erk The ability to heal is particularly handy if you advocate the use of low-durability units such as Fiora and Lyn; both lack reliable Avo and have low enough Hp/Def that they can’t simply take hits, and on top of that, they nearly always have to take counters, and Fiora can’t even camp on terrain to try and improve her Avo. With a unit like one of those in play, they’ll need healing liek every other turn, on a good day. Erk can assist in keeping them in the fray and thus keeping their offenses at work on the enemies as often as possible; Kent cannot. Add on to Erk’s personal offense all the additional times that he lets Lyn or Fiora (or any other unit that needs healing at the time) attack where otherwise they would’ve had to retreat or stay back. Now also consider that Erk healing units produces Exp for Erk himself *without* taking any away from the limited pool of combat Exp; the kills he would’ve otherwise taken during those turns spent healing go to other units, so they get to grow more than usual, while Erk himself continues to grow aswell. More Exp for Lyn or Fiora or whoever else, which equals higher levels, and thus higher stats all-around. Even more w1n. Advantages like these can match up to an advantage in raw personal offense. Kent can spar with Erk in terms of who’s better at attacking, but he can’t even challenge him in the arena of healing, and both are significantly useful functions; if anything healing moreso than attacking, because your options for healing are alot more limited. So Kent has a steep mountain to climb already; he has to not only beat Erk at attacking, but also beat Erk at attacking to the extent that his w1n there even beats Erk’s healing aswell. Sadly enough, though, Kent can’t even scale the first slope of that mountain, because his attacking isn’t clearly better than Erk’s at all. If anything, it’s quite the opposite. Even if Kent managed to win at attacking, which he doesn’t, the fact that it can be reasonably disputed in the first place would be evidence enough that the gap between Kent’s offense and Erk’s isn’t large enough to overcome Erk’s staves.
This argument is no better than me coming out and saying “Kent has h4x mobility and Erk has h4x res, and neither of those do they share in common. Therefore, the relative value of each is indeed important—if Erk is one of the best units with h4x res, and Kent isn’t one of the best units with h4x mobility, Erk has a lead already.” Obviously such an argument phails; instead of weighing the actual case of Kent vs Erk, all I did was pick a particular trait for each unit which the other lacks, compare them to other units who have that same trait, and then say based on the results that Erk > Kent. However, the results of such a contest are irrelevant and inaccurate regardless of what they are, because I compared Kent and Erk to two totally different sets of units and thus held them to two totally different standards, and worse even than that, I didn’t even actually compare Erk to Kent at all, which is pretty phail in a Kent vs Erk debaet. This kind of logic would also tell me, for example, that Rebecca > Lowen, because: “Rebecca has Bows and Lowen has Swords, and neither of those do they share in common. Therefore, the relative value of each is indeed important—if Lowen isn’t the best Sword User, and Rebecca is the best Bow User, Rebecca has a lead already.” You can see how silly that is. It’s merely a more intelligent attempt at the old competition arguments.
Obviously it matters. It simply is not in any way comparable to staves, like you implied above. The two things differ on a fundamental level. Move is, well, move; I can’t really think of anything else that it’s at all similar to, except having more attack range (which Erk has, btw). Staff is a weapon rank and a function. There’s no basis at all for trying to give those equal worth, as there’s no way to objectively measure their worth compared to each other. It would be liek me trying to use Erk’s Res lead to cancel out Kent’s move lead; that would be laughed down aswell. The two things are completely different and can’t be objectively weighed against eachother. Anyway, the hard benefit of extra move is most often that it increases Kent’s flexibility in where he can attack enemies from, and what positions he can take to end his turn on. You’ll notice that Erk’s 1-2 range produces the exact same type of advantage; Erk has more options in where he can attack from and what positions he can end his turn on as compared to a unit with only 1 range. So there goes Kent’s extra move.
Knoll is number one in summoning, Franz can never claim to be number one in anything at all. Knoll > Franz.
That only applies when Kent can reach an enemy that Erk can’t, which is extremely unlikely to begin with given that Erk’s attack range is only one less (if Kent wants to use Javelin, then you can remove the word “killing” from your statement) and there also needs to be no forests or forts or anything in the way for a solid stretch of 7 tiles, and Erk has to also have absolutely nothing else to attack, and there also has to be no one else who’s going to attack that enemy over Kent, and it also has to be safe for Kent to charge ahead that far. In other words it pretty much never applies, and the idea of it giving Kent significant amounts of Exp which Erk can’t access is fairly silly. I might as well try to argue that Erk’s higher earlygame crit from Thunder gets him alot of unexpected kills and thus alot of Exp that Kent won’t get. Certainly mobility is a positive for Kent, but by no means is it the difference between Kent fighting and Erk doing nothing. This is a combat game, not a racing game.
Right now it’s pretty much only Oswin who can regularly take zero damage, and even he can still be hurt by alot of things, and no one has reliable Avo. The only way there’s only one unit to heal alot of the time is if there’s only one unit attacking in the first place, but that’s a ridiculous notion when you’re fielding not 1, but rather 8 or so attackers. Most people take counters, or take them most of the time, and then some also get attacked on enemy phase, and pplz have a significant chance of taking damage both times, and there’s probably atleast 4-5 units attacking on most turns, more on some turns if you can manage it; since this is still early on and individual offense isn’t good yet, I need way more attackers to kill the same number of enemies compared to what I’d have to use later on in the game. Observe: If I have 3 enemies, Guy can kill one, then Lowen/Eliwood have to gang up to kill one, and Hector/Rebecca have to double-team in order to get the last one, then that’s 5 units just to take out a mere 3 enemies, and they’re all taking counters except Rebecca, and again, no one has reliable Avo early on, not even Guy. So yeah, lol @ healers not having anything to heal. Maybe if you had a team of invincible units, but, you don’t. Arguing that staves are worthless is a pretty tough case to make; staves are essentially a boost to team durability, so in order to argue that staves are worthless, you’d have to argue that durability is worthless.
With this line of thinking, I can easily belittle Kent’s attacking capabilities far more than anyone can belittle Erk’s staff capabilities: In fact, Kent’s ability to attack is almost entirely worthless. You seldom need to add on a 9th or w/e attacker when you already have 8. Not only am I going to have trouble finding things for 9 attackers to all attack on every turn, but using that many also means that I have more units than ever to divide the combat Exp between, so everyone’s on lower levels than they would be otherwise. The addition of a ninth attacker would only matter on the rly huge maps like VoD or something, where you have tons of enemies to cover in multiple areas. Alot of the time it might actually be better to have fewer total attackers, because you’re rarely exerting 9 units’ offense to its full extent, but you’re feeling the effects of those lower levels on everyone all the time. If your unit can only perform a single function which 20+ others can also do, and the other unit can perform that function *and* another one which only 2 others can do, then it makes little sense to try and argue “you have too many pplz who can do this already.” That logic primarily tears down the function which 20+ others can do, leaving only the one which just 2 others can do, and which your unit can’t do at all while the other unit can perform quite competently. |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Jan 7 2008, 07:56 PM Post #6 |
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Levels
orly? In Chapter 1, there are 5 enemies, and no one is one-rounding (and sometimes you don’t even two-round), so each gets at least one kill, one shot on the boss, and two regular hits. +.8 level. In Chapter 2, there are 6 enemies. One is near the bottom of the map, and Lyn wants to reach the throne, so either Kent or Sain has that kill entirely to himself. Again, no one is one-rounding, so each can get a shot on the boss, and two regular hits, and 1-2 kills. +1 level. In Chapter 3, there are 9 enemies. Florina is a nub who can barely handle the Axes and gets raep’d by the Bows at this point, and Wil is an Archer so he’s only attacking once per turn (and you’re probably not using him in the main campaign anyway), so it’s still mostly Lyn, Kent, and Sain, with higher levels but more enemies, so +1 level. For Chapter 4 in particular, Kent and Sain can expect to wall in the south entrance (since they have WTA against both the Mercs and Brigands) while Lyn recruits Dorcas and goes down towards the boss, Florina hits up the Mercs, and Wil doesn’t get used. They can see more kills there than anyone else can here, quite easily. +2 levels. Seems like 4-5 levels to me, even after accounting for progressively higher levels throughout the chapters (if anything that just tilts it closer to 4 than 5). Besides, lowering it to 3 doesn’t make a difference—it only lowers Kent’s level lead in the main campaign by 1; it doesn’t, as you’re trying to suggest, give Erk a level lead. That’s quite out of the question.
lol @ this. I thought you were above such tactics, WJC. First, when Erk joins, his Speed isn’t high enough to double LHM enemies, whereas Kent can be doubling them and one-rounding them quite niftily. Thus, there is a counter-reason to give Kent those kills. A level 1 Archer, for example, has 4 Speed. Base Erk has 7, failing to double it. Kent only needs to be level 3 to double it on average, and you said in your post that he’d be level 4, so he most definitely doubles it. Brigands have 5 Speed, and Kent gets them by level 5-6 on average, whereas Erk also needs to be 5-6, and Kent is obviously reaching level 5 earlier than Erk is. There are also Shamans in Chapter 7, 7x, 8, and 10, and even a level 8 Erk can’t 2HKO them (13 Atk – 1 WTA – 2 Res = 10x2 = 20 dmg, and they have 22 HP), whereas Kent can do so at level 8. The only enemies Erk could ever win against would be Knights, but those only appear in boss-form in LHM, and Kent also has advantages over bosses as well (such as Beyard and the bosses that appear before Erk is even there), so naming those would be pretty moot. If Kent can kill lots of enemies that Erk can’t, there most definitely is a reason to let Kent kill it—you’re already hurting your chances of a better gem by abusing Lundgren, but delaying kills just to get Erk to a higher level makes it even worse. Not only that, but Kent also has more Move. Yes, maps in LHM are small, but so is the difference in stats gained when Erk gets a kill and when Kent gets a kill. Since the enemy concentration in LHM is so small, in fact, units are just plowing ahead a lot of the time. Over the course of two turns, Kent has moved four more spaces than Erk has, so an enemy from one to three spaces farther away than Erk’s Atk Range is fair game for Kent. Again, there’s no reason at all to delay killing that enemy just so Erk can get it. Even if all of that that weren’t true, Erk getting closer to gaining a level means that others are getting farther away from gaining levels, as well—if Erk takes 3 more kills than his fair share, that’s 3 less kills that others would have gotten. Since the difference is small, as you said, I’m not gaining or losing much of anything either way. Erk gets a higher level, my other units get lower levels. Those cancel at the best. So, if Erk needs to be forcefed kills just so he can compete with Kent, it’s still an advantage for Kent. Kent gets his kills naturally, his fair share, while Erk has to deprive other units and take more than his fair share. The view that you give the unit that gains more EXP the kill every single time is rather flawed; it’s the same logic as was used against Titania in FE9; it failed then and it fails now. Of course, this is on a much different scale than was the case with Titania, but it applies nonetheless. You have no reason (short of EXP Rank, and LHM EXP Rank is easy to S with Nils and Serra anyway) whatsoever to give kills to Erk over Kent just because he “gains moar stats.” If Titania +8 kills is still better than Boyd +8 kills, then depriving Titania and giving Boyd more kills doesn’t make sense. Similarly, if Kent +4 kills is still better than Erk +4 kills, then giving Erk more kills has no relevance whatsoever. It’s no better than me giving Kent a Speedwing or Dragonshield or something. Finally, if you’re LHM-promoting Kent, you have a major incentive to give him as many kills as possible—the more levels he gains, the less he loses out on by promoting early. In the face of all this, I’d say it’s practically impossible for Erk to have a level lead. And even if he did, he has one measly Defend Chapter and a chapter where he doesn’t even start as a PC unit to get it. On top of that, he’s overlevelled compared to the likes of Lowen, Eliwood, and Rebecca, so he’s gaining less EXP per kill, and so the same logic, according to you, that gave him “priority” over Kent for kills in LHM is now giving everyone else priority over him for kills in HHM. Even if he gets one level in those two chapters, he’d at best have a level lead of one on Kent, and Kent easily closes that, so meh. He shouldn’t have it anyway, as shown.
If it existed, it indeed would. However, in the comparisons in your first post, you were assuming that it never went away (you had Kent consistently two levels lower even after Dragon’s Gate—lol @ that). I was the one who had Kent and Erk at the same levels. Are you now retracting your statements?
Iron Lance Kent damages Lundgren at level 8, and that’s certainly reasonable by the end of Chapter 10. Kent can also use Heavy Spear/Armorslayer and do damage at base level if need be, though he shouldn’t need to do so. Yes, he takes up the 1-Range attack slot, but Nils exists, and you can rotate units out every turn. Chances are you’re only using Sain, Lyn, Erk, and Kent for combat units in LHM. Maybe throw in Lucius or Florina. Sain can damage Lundgren at level 7 with Javelin, so he’s not competing with Kent. Lucius has 1-2 Range, so he’s not competing with Kent. Erk’s not competing with Kent. For Lyn, you have the least reason to abuse her since she’s probably the one who’s going to be killing Lundgren in the end anyway (Mani Katti ftw). Not to mention her promotion in the main game is a bit inflexible, so Lundgren Abusing her just makes her cap ram her level that much faster and hurts your HHM EXP Rank, which is a phail idea. Same applies to Matthew if you throw him in. It seems that the only person who might be competing with Kent is Sain, due to Javelin’s inaccuracy, and maybe Florina, if she’s in play, so that’s not much at all. But, also keep in mind that getting 19xx isn’t always possible. It requires killing Kishuna in 19x in a single turn; even one miss can screw you up, and restarting = too much tedium. Basically, it’s based on chance, so even if you get Nils to level 7 by abusing Lundgren, it’s not guaranteed that you’re going to get 19xx. This means that not only do you lose out on the best gem from LHM, but you also don’t get the items from 19xx to compensate, which phails since Dragon’s Gate with its juicy Killers is right up next. Abusing Lundgren to get 19xx is largely a wager in the first place. Indeed, it seems to me that the majority of the time that you do abuse him is when either Kent or Sain wants to LHM-promote, in which case the brunt of the abuse is being focused on them anyway. So w/e @ Kent not being able to get EXP from Lundgren. Anyway, Erk is never going to have a level lead on Kent like you say—rather, it’s the opposite. Even if he did, it’s only liek 1, so lol; as if it would matter at all. You mentioned Priscilla and Serra being able to heal after this, but we agreed to stop arguing about supports, so meh. I’ll cover healing when I get to Erk’s Staves later on. Offense
The “level gap,” if it exists, favors Kent, not Erk, so if anything it’s a point bigger at that time. At equal levels, 13/0 Erk has 9.8 Mag and 13/0 Kent has 10.8 Str. So that’s +1 right there. And it’s more than just C Sain. Both of Kent’s Supports are pretty uberfast, and we’re assuming optimal Support setup, remember? C Sain/C Lyn is +2 Atk for Kent over Erk. +3 already, before weapons are even considered.
While Erk has Thunder to upgrade from Fire, Kent also has Steel Lance, Killing Edge, Lancereaver and Armorslayer to upgrade to when the need arises before Dragon’s Gate, and Killer Lance/Killer Axe/Killing Edge very consistently after. Combined with a 3-point gap in Atk, this is indeed going to push offense towards Kent. Let me draw up my example from the beginning: Def-Res Peg Knight: -2 Mage: -3 Knight: +8 Shaman: -4 Brigand: +2 Nomad: +2 Cavalier: +5 Merc: +4 Soldier: 0 Fighter: +1 Myrmidon: +1 Archer: +2 Thief: -1 Wyvern Rider: +9 Monk: -9 Assuming Iron Lance (or Iron Sword against Axes) Kent vs. Thunder Erk, Kent wins against: Peg Knight, Mage/Shaman/Monk, Brigand, Myrmidon, Nomad, Archer, Fighter, Thief, Soldier. Considering WTA, he ties against the Merc, but if he pulls out a Steel Lance against it, he wins, and by Pirate Ship, where Mercs are the most common, Steel Lance Kent becomes entirely plausible as they wouldn’t double him anymore. With that in mind, and with Erk having no alternate for better performance against said Mercs, I’d actually say that this, too, is a victory for Kent. Now, Soldiers, Pegs (though not Slim Lance ones), and Archers Erk can probably one-round, and Thieves are pretty insignificant, but he won’t get the Mages, Shamans, Nomads, Myrmidons, and Brigands. Even though Magic isn’t that common right now, there’s a significant number of Shamans in Pirate Ship and Mages in 19x, and Erk can’t 2HKO either set of enemies, whereas Kent can, so that matters as well. Erk can win against Wyvern Riders (not even existent yet), Knights, and Cavaliers. Erk’s victory against Cavaliers is reduced to 2 damage per double if you apply Kent’s initial level lead. If the Cavalier in question has a Sword (Steel or Iron), the gap becomes even shorter: 2 without level lead and 0 with. Or if Kent upgrades to Steel Lance (which he will do on a number of occasions, such as when neither can double or when the enemy has been hurt by another character previously) or Horseslayer, he actually turns the tables around and wins. So Erk’s major victory here is against Knights, a single enemy type. That’s not nearly enough for him to claim a lead in offense. In fact, if Kent ever uses the Armorslayer, which isn’t that unlikely at all, Kent will be winning against Knights as well, and Erk’s offensive advantage against them entirely disappears. Kent’s leads are easily more decisive than Erk’s lead against Cavaliers and Knights. And then, if that isn’t enough for you, Kent also wins against bosses, as illustrated in the first post, since they have good Res and he has a big Atk lead. Sealen, Aion, Darin, Cameron, Bernard, etc. Kent performs considerably better against all of those enemies. Hmm? And you said that Kent was only winning against Pegs and Soldiers? Phail, WJC, phail. And this is all before Dragon’s Gate, where the Atk gap is at its smallest. After Dragon’s Gate (and as the game progresses and you get better and better physical weaponry) Kent raeps Erk in offense by so much that it’s not even a comparison. 20/10 Kent w/Killer Axe, optimal supports: 34.2 Atk. 20/10 Erk w/Thunder, optimal supports: 26.2 Atk. Kent has 8 more Atk. That means that he wins against: Heroes, Warriors, Paladins, Berserkers, Generals, and Swordmasters, since all of those enemies have less than 8 more Def than Res (Generals have 8, but WTA gives Kent the lead there too). They tie against Wyvern Lords, since those have 9 more Def than Res, and Kent has 9 more Atk after WTA. Then they both 2HKO all the unpromoted stuff and Snipers, so w/e. As you can see, Erk never wins against anything at all. Bring Valks or Bishops or Druids into the picture, and Kent is winning by more, since they actually have more Res than they have Def. Against Valks, for example, the 8-Atk gap becomes a total of 21. It’s so bad against those, in fact, that Erk can never ever 2HKO a Valk at all, no matter what level he’s at or what supports he has. Even being downright stupid and giving Erk a 3-level lead or something, like you were trying to do earlier, the gap only decreases by 1, so Kent still w1ns against the vast majority of the stuff. Erk can switch to Elfire, but Kent can switch to Silver Axe, and the Atk gap actually increases by +2 when they do that, so it only hurts him more. Slayer weapons also exist, and Kent can use them to kill enemies he couldn’t get otherwise, while Erk has no such option, so that w1ns, and Kent has moar Crit thanks to the presence of Killer weapons. And bosses still have more Res than Def, or at the very least similar Res and Def. Sonia, Denning, Limstella—all of those units have way more Res than they do Def. Others, like Paul or Jasmine, have at worst a Def-Res gap of 2 or so, which means that Kent wins massively with his huge Atk lead. Do I even need to mention Genesis? Woo Kent. For Erk to have an offense lead, you’d have to have him be gaining EXP at ridiculous rates, faster than an unpromoted Kent, and Kent has to be denied his supports. I can anticipate you arguing that supports aren’t always in range, but they’re almost always there on Enemy Phase (since it’s the enemy moving then, not the player) so that’s 50% of the time, and they only have to be around half the time on Player Phase to be considered mostly constant, and for the remaining time the unit in question is providing other units with bonuses, so it works out to about the same as if that unit had those bonuses all the time. You could maybe have said earlier that Lyn and Fiora, specifically, aren’t always in range, but we agreed not to attack the supporters (otherwise I could just as easily hurt Erk’s defensive support bonuses, since you have both your healers around the same unit), so it’s too little, too late. +4 from supports, +2-3 from weapon, +1 inherent, +1 WTA = ggnore Erk. Defense
“Ignoring it” (which I didn’t do, btw, since I mentioned it right after the quoted section) is better than making up bullshit about it, like you’re doing.
lol, “Kent takes less damage per hit, but he has to more hits overall” is indeed true. However, you cleverly neglected this: with each additional attack that Kent needs to take to die, the %chance of his dying becomes a lot lower. If 8 hits are needed to kill Kent, and 5 are needed to kill Erk, and Kent takes 8 and Erk takes 5, Kent is winning massively since the chance of all 8 hits striking him in the first place is a lot lower than the chance of all 5 striking Erk: A 90-Hit enemy = 60% real on our two. ~1.68% chance of Kent dying from 8 attacks. 7.78% chance of Erk dying from 5. And that’s without considering Kent’s possible WTA, which becomes almost constant after promotion. w1n
that’s cancelled out by this: “If they don’t get attacked on Player Phase, that means an auto-win for Kent. Kent takes less damage that round, while Erk takes more. This is obvious.” And the situation I mentioned is easily more common, as during the Player Phase, it’s the player in control, not the enemy, and you can only get hit once on Player Phase, whereas you can get hit several times on Enemy. Additionally, earlier on, people aren’t one-rounding a lot, as you yourself said in your last post; if Lowen attacks an enemy and Kent finishes it, Kent takes no damage that Player Phase, just like Erk. This is happening at least a third to a half of the time, depending on the specific part of the game. So Erk’s advantage is now only half of what it would be otherwise, which means that Kent is quite clearly winning.
lol, yeah, let’s totally ignore Hit%. The chance of Kent taking two attacks from a 90-Hit enemy is 48%. The chance of Erk taking one attack from a 90-Hit enemy is 60%. Quite a difference. In fact, it’s such a big difference that it easily overrides any 1-2 Range durability lead that you could possibly argue for Erk (and here you’re not even arguing a lead, you’re just arguing that they’re even, so that’s even worse for him)—12% is quitealot. And if Kent has WTA, the chance of his taking two attacks becomes 10.24%, so the difference is now 37.76%. If Kent OHKO’s an enemy on Player Phase, then neither takes damage on Player but both do on Enemy. If neither attacks on Player Phase, then neither takes damage on Player but both do on Enemy. If Kent finishes off an enemy, neither takes damage that turn but both do on Enemy. Or if they were attacking a 1-2 Range (nonmagical) enemy on Player, both take damage that turn and both do on Enemy. In all of those cases, Kent wins due to greater concrete durability. That, combined with the fact that the probability of Kent taking moar attacks is less likely than the probability of Erk taking fewer attacks, pushes it entirely to Kent.
No, because you said that putting Oswin out in front can lure the enemy away from Erk. If the situation is indeed dire enough to need to do that, Oswin can just Trade Kent a Javelin. You lose something only if Oswin would have been attacking that Player Phase otherwise, and that’s countered by the fact that Kent needs to do it less than Erk since his concrete durability is greater, and so his %chance to die is lower.
If there were two enemies in range, and they could kill Erk combined, they would try it, despite low Hit%, and still attack Erk over Oswin (or at least the first would, and, if it hit, the second would follow), whereas they wouldn’t do this for Kent since they wouldn’t be able to kill him as easily, very rarely in 2 or 3 hits.
Uh? You don’t ever want a nonranged unit in range of a ranged unit ever if you can avoid it. Only if the situation is extremely dire can you say that Erk has an advantage there, and even then, someone can Trade a Javelin to Kent, and Erk’s advantage disappears. Maybe it gives Erk an offensive advantage to not have to switch to a worse weapon, but certainly not a defensive one. And Kent was winning offense clearly anyway, so w/e @ a few ranged enemies. Also, most 1-2 Range enemies are Magical, which Kent can one-round with Javelin or Hand Axe a lot of the time anyway, so lol @ the notion that this somehow matters.
“Erk wins anyway”? No. If Kent OHKOs a magical enemy on Player Phase, and physical enemies comes in and attacks them on Enemy Phase, guess who has the lead? That’s right, Kent. A lead in concrete durability is indeed better than 1-2 Range, even in this case. It’s a different story if you’re facing groups of magicals, sure, but by the time you see those (outside Pirate Ship and 19x), your guys are promoted, so they barely affect durability at all. The only really threatening Magic users later on are Luna Druids and Valkyries. Against Luna Druids, Kent has more HP, so he’s winning durability anyway. Against Valkyries, neither can outrange those, so chances are that they’re not attacking them on Player Phase anyway, in which case Erk’s 1-2 Range is moot, and Erk won’t face them anyway, since his damage against them is pathetic. Finally, with Killer Lance, there’s over a 40% chance of Kent criticalling on the first attack on Player Phase, which means that he doesn’t take damage that Player Phase, just like Erk, and both do on Enemy Phase, so he’s w1nning by a lot again thanks to concrete durability.
The average Atk value on Noble Lady of Caelin is 13-14. It rises to 14-15 in Whereabouts Unknown. And considering that’s the section of the game we’re talking about, it certainly is not rare. It’s the same in Dragon’s Gate, even (14-15). lol @ 40. Even Limstella only has 39. Yeah, let’s pick an enemy they’re never going to face ever (and if they do, it’ll be Kent since he does a lot more damage and can use Killers to Crit her 0 Luck) as opposed to enemies that they’re going to face very often. I’m sure that’s a great idea. :rollseyes: Promotion
That’s essentially the gist of what you just said. Indeed, the chance of playing Lucius is less than his normal Tier List position due to what you said, but, on the same note, it’s also higher by that same logic thanks to his Supports. First, Lucius is one of Serra’s best supports. Serra can get B Erk, but it’s massively slow, so B Lucius > that, and Sain usually has A Kent, so she wants an A support as well, and A Lucius is her fastest by far with the exception of that. Then, Raven wants him as well; Raven only has Rebecca, who is an Archer and one of your worst units earlygame, so she’s unlikely, and she has other options anyway, and Priscilla, who probably doesn’t even want him with her massive support list, headlined by Erk and Guy. So, it’s lower since you don’t want promotion troubles with Erk, but it’s higher since Serra and Raven both want to support him. That balances, and you’re left with Lucius’ worth as a unit—Upper Mid by FEFF standards. Since you tote Staves so much, and he starts with a C, it should be even higher than that according to you. Playing Lucius is indeed a possibility, and as illustrated, he wants to promote before Erk does, since he’s the better Staff user (more Mag, higher Rank).
no, nub. Erk is a healer who can counterattack. Serra/Priscilla are healers who can counterattack and get an EXP boost. Quite a difference. Also, gaining attacking > gaining healing in the first place, since without attacking, you’re almost completely worthless on Enemy Phase—a total and utter liability. Without healing, you’re not being a liability in any way whatsoever. Erasing the tremendous disadvantage of the former is obviously preferable to adding something that Erk isn’t even good at anyway. Even if that weren’t the case, the EXP bonus pushes it towards them overall anyway.
It’s not about when they hit 20. If Erk is promoting at 15/0 with the Guiding Ring, they can be doing so, as well. Since they have an EXP boost, they’ll make up the levels they lost by ending at a higher level, even more than Erk would have. Serra at the worst is 17/0 by Pirate Ship, perfect timing to promotify with the Guiding Ring. She loses 3 levels but gains a lot more in the end due to an EXP boost, so in reality she loses even less than Erk if Erk were to promote early. Priscilla by Dragon’s Gate is . . . maybe 12/0. So she loses 8 levels, but gains about 7 or so overall. It’s plausible for her to promote right when you get the Ring. Or, if not, there’s also the possibility of playing Lucius, in which case he promotes early, and combined together, the chance is almost 0% that Erk gets to promote by Dragon Gate.
You also have 4 times the number of enemies as wounds taken, due to Avoid, Range, WTA manipulation, walling, etc., so that about cancels at the very worst, and then you have EXP boost left over and not being useless on Enemy Phase anymore, so the healers do indeed get priority over the attackers for promoting early. Also, healing someone at 1 HP less than the maximum barely increases that unit’s durability. Finishing off an enemy at 1 HP is a substantial gain to Tactics, and the more units that can do this, the more that can be moving forward toward the next enemy unit. Attacking is itself massively better than healing, since it’s necessary and healing is not. You’re just spewing bull if you say that adding better attackers doesn’t do as much as adding more (not even better in this case) healers—obviously, both have their merits, but healing is something that you don’t need, whereas attacking is something you do need indeed. That about cancels with the fact that your healer options are more limited, so your point is moot.
wth How in the HELL did Erk gain a one-level lead over Kent in LHM? For yes, that’s what would have to be true for Erk to come back at level 13 in Chapter 14 when Kent was 12/1. That’s utterly ridiculous for a number of reasons, the major one being that you’d actually have to forcefeed Erk kills to get him that much higher than Kent in LHM, and the other one being that Kent starts at a higher level to begin with. So this comparison more directly applies: 15/1 Erk, B Priscilla: 12.6 Att, 14.0 AS--30.1 Hp, 8.8 Def, 13.6 Res, 40.2 Avo, 16 crit (21 w/ Thunder), Res hitting, 1-2 range, Staves 12/3 Kent, B Sain/B Lyn: 16.2 Att, 13.9 AS--33.0 Hp, 12.2 Def, 7.2 Res, 52.4 Avo, 6.3 crit, full Weapon Triangle, 2 Move h4x’d Now, I see you changed one thing in your comparison: you now have Erk promoting at 18/0 instead of 15/0. If he’s doing this, then Kent isn’t going to promote in LHM anyway, as 18/1 Erk is about the same as 20/1 Erk, and Kent is only matching Erk’s promotion time frame (if Erk wants earlygame h4x in exchange for lategame h4x, so does Kent, etc.).
No. If Erk’s getting EXP from healing when there’s “no attacking to be done,” as you said earlier, then that means that frequently your units are just moving ahead with the full extent of their Move. Each turn, Kent ends up 2 spaces farther than Erk, which means that not only can more enemies reach him on Enemy Phase, but he can reach more enemies on the next Player Phase—there doesn’t even necessarily have to be nothing for Erk to attack, but since Kent has greater Move, he gets better kill choices, so he’ll be going after the enemies that give more lucrative EXP gains (like Soldiers early on—ftw). So, basically, if Erk gets more EXP from having Staves, Kent gets more EXP from having Move, and if those cancel and Erk is promoted and Kent is not, Kent’s gaining EXP at a significantly faster rate than Erk is. Or, if Erk doesn’t get more EXP from having Staves, since, as is more likely, you’re attacking most of the time, Kent doesn’t get more EXP from having more Move but still gains more EXP from being unpromoted, and thus still ends up growing much faster. Finally, Genesis exists, and that’s one of the most EXP-rich chapters in the whole game. These enemies have up to 11 more Res than Def, meaning that Erk killing them is quite out of the question unless you baby him, whereas Kent can kill them quite easily (17/0 Kent w/Killer Lance = 27 Atk, and that kills all of them, whereas Erk needs to have 34 Atk to get them all, and he doesn’t _ever_ get that, not even at 20/20 w/Elfire, rofl). You could say “desert,” but there are enemies outside of the desert, too, whereas in Genesis all the enemies are enemies that Erk struggles with.
Except that when neither is attacking, Erk’s 1-2 Range isn’t going to allow him any advantage, whereas Kent’s Move will indeed let him move farther ahead that turn. Two Move, 4 spaces, difference in total Atk Range = 3, or a full 4 if Kent uses Javelin. Yeah, Javelin is inferior to Kent’s standard equip, but if it can do the job (and it can increasingly do so as time goes on, or if Kent is just finishing an enemy someone else attacked, or doing the initial damage so someone else can finish, which isn’t unlikely early on), it makes Erk’s 1-2 Range advantage completely disappear. Erk can never make Kent’s Move advantage disappear outside of the desert, which is combated by Kishuna chapters, and terrain, where at the worst it’s a tie. Besides, Javelin is only 1 Mt. less than Iron Lance, so earlier on it has to be a situation where a damage difference of exactly 2 is the difference between killing and not killing for Kent to be unable to use it comfortably. That certainly is the case sometimes, but when it’s not, Kent does indeed want to use Javelin, which heightens his advantages and lowers Erk’s advantages, and Erk can’t reverse that situation, so w1n for Kent. Oh, and 1-2 Range doesn't even affect the enemies' ability to reach Erk on Enemy Phase, whereas Kent's 2 Move does indeed. And this isn’t even touching rescuing or visiting villages or anything like that.
Staves vs. Move, you mean, so no, it doesn’t let Erk get to a higher level. Close it, sure, but never actually turn the tables.
If it’s “pretty often the case” that you don’t need additional attackers, then it’s also “pretty often the case” that Kent and Erk are using all their Move, in which case Kent ends each subsequent turn farther and farther ahead, so he can reach more/be reached by more, and, therefore, gets better kill choices/more kills. Also, if Erk is stopping to heal, he may be using less than the full extent of his Move, so that makes him fall back even further. So it’s that and gaining more combat EXP per kill vs. healing when they’re not attacking—thus the level gap does indeed decrease and eventually close. Also, again thanks to his Move, even when there are going to be attackers “floating around,” Kent is less likely to be one of them. People like Oswin and Bartre, maybe, but not high-Move units like Kent and Sain. When healing is just a substitute for attacking, which it is in the majority of cases, there’s not even a notable difference between that and if Erk had just attacked the enemy instead, so that doesn’t even matter. Or, when you’re facing higher leveled enemies and bosses (which Kent wins against, by the way), like in the example I gave, the actual gap in combat EXP is quite large. From two of those level 12 enemies, for example, there’s already a difference of 28, over 5 times the amount of EXP given by Heal. Enemy levels actually do increase as the game goes along, or else you’d never see promoted enemies. When promoted enemies do appear, actually, the gap rises to even moar since they start out pretty evenly in levels as compared to your characters (20/2 Kent to 1 Hero or something). Of course, Erk’s lead is probably entirely diminished by then, but that’s just in case it weren’t. Anyway, with Serra and Priscilla/Lucius, +LHM to add to Kent and Erk’s levels, Erk isn’t promoting before 18/0 or thereabouts anyway, so discussing early promotion is rather moot. Staves
In your example: Lowen attacks w/Javelin, doesn’t get countered. Eliwood finishes. No damage taken. Rebecca attacks with Bow, doesn’t get countered. Hector finishes. No damage taken. Guy attacks with Sword. Maybe he takes damage, maybe he doesn’t (if he’s attacking an Axe user, chances are that he won’t; if he’s using the KE, he also might Crit). Only one unit possibly damaged? h4x. Or, if Javelin is too inaccurate for you, realize that since we’re talking about Erk’s Staves, this isn’t the very start of the game; this is considerably later on (around Dragon’s Gate if you promote early, later if not). In which case, people’s Hit ratings with Javelins are indeed becoming more accurate. Lowen, specifically, doesn’t yet have good Hit with Javelin, that’s true, but keep in mind that for Lowen, taking damage doesn’t matter that much after about level 14. Healing someone like him, Hector or Oswin is usually just “lol I got EXP,” which is considerably less valuable than actually increasing someone’s durability, as you’re trying to claim Erk does. AND Avoid is starting to work more reliably—you’re arriving at the promotion point, where almost everyone has at least two weapons for WTA manipulation to make Avoid ratings soar compared to enemy Hit ratings, which actually falls thanks to the upgrade to Steel weapons. People are also starting to use Killers now, for at least 30 Crit (moar with half Skill, and moar if the unit has an S Rank in that weapon type, and obviously some from Supports, so an average of 40-45 is probably more accurate), or 1/3 chance to OHKO each and every enemy, in which case 1/3 of the time no damage is taken, and at least another 1/3 of the time no damage is taken again due to Avoid. The 1/3 of the remainder features Hector, Oswin, Lowen, etc., so chop off something from that, and tack on people who use 1-2 Range not to take counterattacks, and you’re left with hardly anything for Erk to heal with the presence of two other healers. Erk replacing Priscilla’s action, especially when Priscilla is still unpromoted (which is the case for a while when Erk promotes before Serra and Priscilla), means little, if anything at all.
Except that the worth of Res can be objectively measured by looking at the number of Magic Users in the game, and their power. One can quite clearly deduce that it’s not worth very much as compared to Def, Spd, etc. The worth of Move (or healing) isn’t as easy. I can belittle healing. You can belittle Move. If we can’t decide objectively, then the debate about Move vs. Staves is entirely subjective, and so we’d do well to assume them equal.
Rebecca being the best Bow User does indeed give her an advantage over Lowen. Unlike in the Move vs. Staves situation, however, we don’t have to resort to relative values in this case. Bows suck. This is obvious to anyone who’s played the game, or even knows about the mechanics of the game. They fulfill a certain niche, so she gets points for that, but not very much at all. I cannot, however, say that having more Move sucks. I can’t say that having Staves sucks. Both are indeed useful, and they share neither in common. Kent is the best mobile unit, Erk is not the best Staff user. That’s already an advantage to Kent. Kent has more Move both before and after promotion, Erk only has Staves after promotion. Another advantage to Kent. Now, if we can determine Staves to be inherently > more Move, that’s an advantage to Erk, but Kent has two advantages to Erk’s one, and even if that one were great enough to override the other two, the margin wouldn’t be great at all, certainly not great enough to override Kent’s other advantages.
oh yea? I can belittle your case as easily as you can belittle mine: “Knoll has Summoning and combat, Franz just has combat. Knoll > Franz.” That’s essentially what you’re trying to imply with your case about Erk’s Staves, is it not? In fact, Knoll also has Staves, so I can belittle your case even further: if functions cancel each other out, then Knoll is massively better than Franz, since he has three functions to Franz’s one. Knoll for Top Tier.
Move is a stat just like Def, Str, or Spd are stats. Move’s an obvious improvement; it doesn’t necessarily have to be a second function. You might as well say that Alan being better than Lilina at combat and mobility doesn’t matter since Staves is a second function that only Lilina has, whereas combat is a single function that they share in common and higher mobility isn’t even a function. Besides, even if Staves were > Move by a lot, Kent has more Move, more offense, and more defense, all vs. Staves, so you’d have to argue the value of Staves as being enough to override all of that, which is a pretty tough case to make. For Erk to add durability to your team via Staves, there would have to be at least three wounds to be healed (add in Lucius and/or Pent, and it becomes more, up to five, which is pretty ridiculous to begin with if you have “additional attackers just floating around”), otherwise all he’s doing is letting your other healers attack, which isn’t worth much at all since it’s just switching actions rather than adding one. Not only that, but those three damaged units would have to also be units that would need the healing (not Oswin or Lowen or tanky types), AND the enemies would have to have been particularly damaging, AND there would have to be more enemies ready to attack. If there’s “frequently no attacking to be done,” that means less damage is taken, and therefore, there are fewer wounds to be healed, so that works both ways, son. Also, killing faster is always an advantage since it lets you progress faster no matter what the circumstance. It’s not just adding a 9th attacker—it’s adding a h4x 9th attacker, with awesome offense and defense and mobility. That’s the fundamental difference that you keep ignoring. You’re trying to say “well, combat < combat + Staves,” but in reality it’s moar liek “combat Level 4 > combat Level 2 + Staves”, after accounting for both Kent’s offense and defense leads. Throw in mobility, and you have a landslide victory for Kent. Also account for the fact that Erk is one of the worst Staff users (starts with bad Rank and later on has the lowest Mag), and it’s quite clearly Erk that has a mountain to climb, not Kent. Not to mention that Staves only starts existing as an advantage for Erk after he promotes; Kent’s advantages always exist.
2? No. Priscilla, Serra, Lucius, Pent, and Canas if you’re using him. Athos in Final. Nino and Renault very rarely. At the least five other units can perform the function as well—2 is quite an exaggeration. And 20+? Don’t joke. For that to be the case, you’d have to include the likes of Bartre and Wil, and then say that they’re just as capable of killing and surviving, or nearly as capable of killing and surviving, as Kent is.
Kent does indeed add to the team’s durability, my friend. Killing enemies much faster lets the team take less blows, first of all, and, secondly, since Kent’s durability is better than Erk’s, Kent can take on large sections of enemies and divert attacks from the rest of the team as well. 1-2 Range can’t even be applied in this case, so the gap is indeed quite large—3-4 attacks against some things, h4x.
So, basically, you mean, don’t add much at all, since that situation is rare with so many other healers around (at best the advantage is reduced to “let your other healers take different actions,” which is phail in comparison to what you’re trying to pass Staves off as). Also, I notice that you keep using Lyn and Fiora as specific examples. It’s clever of you to still argue against supporters even after we agreed not to do so. To that I will only respond with a quotation of my last post: You also have both of the other important Staff Users (Serra and Priscilla) Supporting Erk, so Erk adding Staves doesn’t spread out your possible Staff Range—it just makes it so that you have one more Staff user where there were already two gathered together, which phails. lol I bolded the important part. -- So, what have we got? Kent is winning offense for pretty much the whole game (+1 inherent Pow lead, +4 from Supports over Erk, +2 from Killer Lance vs. Thunder, +1 WTA, for a total of +8, and more with Axes/Silver weapons), is winning defense since concrete durability > 1-2 Range, and has +2 Move. Erk only has Staves, so Staves have to be > all of Kent’s leads for Erk to even stand a chance. If Erk promotes early, Kent does too, to match his early promotion, so that’s entirely moot, not to mention Erk promoting early is in itself a ridiculous notion since Serra/Priscilla are almost always in play in this debaet, and Lucius might be as well. Kent >>> Erk. |
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12:23 PM Nov 23
