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| Mekkah vs Sentenal | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 17 2007, 01:15 PM (490 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Nov 17 2007, 01:15 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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tl;dr 
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 MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH 
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| Mekkah | Nov 17 2007, 05:55 PM Post #2 |
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Hey Sentenal, long time no see! Holyn versus Lachesis it is. Seeing as this is FE4, where everyone can and will automatically be fielded, we should be looking at how each unit contributes to you getting an S-rank at the end of the game. The hardest rank in the game to fulfill is easily EXP. You need to level up every unit to their maximum potential to stand a chance at reaching the amount of required level-ups. Since Lachesis completely trumps Holyn when it comes to helping this requirement, she is definitely helping much more. How? Lachesis comes at L2, Holyn at L14. Assuming both max out, Lachesis contributes 28 levels, whereas Holyn only adds 16. For the record, you need to level up 982 times in the entire game to S-rank, with 48 playable characters, so on average each unit would have to level up a little over 20 times. And then there's a lot of people who aren't going to make that, like dancers, thieves, Deirdre, Hannibal, and obviously Holyn. And now, we'll focus on how these units are getting their EXP. There's essentially three main pools of EXP: - Field EXP from battling opposing armies - Arena - Healing There's also things like dancing, but neither of our units does that, so that's irrelevant. What is relevant is that the arena and field EXP are limited, and field EXP is also shared by every single other fighting unit. That means that beyond the levels that Holyn garners from the arena, he will be competing with other fighting units and getting a smaller portion. Lachesis, however, doesn't need to use field EXP once in her life and can still cap out her level. During Ch2, she can first heal her Paladin friends with her Live staff, and when she's done with that some other unit can come around and repeatedly lose in the arena and end up at 1HP. This doesn't even count as a combat loss, so it doesn't affect your rank. Meanwhile the rest of your army can take care of fighting armies and capturing castles and all. And then Ethlin can sell her the Return Staff which she can spam as well, and she can keep that up during Ch3. In Ch4, Lachesis will be ready for promotion, and that's when it's finally viable to compare her to Holyn. Holyn will have grown and promoted as well by now - going by our previous debate we could place him at L21, which also implies that he has taken from the limited shared pool of field EXP. Holyn L21 Forrest HP: 49.9 Str: 21.7 Mag: 3.4 Skl: 26.1 Spd: 21.7 Def: 15.7 Res: 4.4 Luk: 2.8 Mov: 6 Pursuit, 26.1% Moonlight Hit Swords Holyn using Steel Blade Offensively: 37.7 Atk, 15.7 AS, 110.8 Hit Defensively: 34.2 Avoid, 49.9 HP, 15.7 Def, 4.4 Res Lachesis L20 Master Knight HP: 36.8 Str: 22.0 Mag: 8.9 Skl: 17.8 Spd: 20.6 Def: 17.6 Res: 10.8 Luk: 12.2 Mov: 9 Pursuit, Charisma Swords, Lances, Axes, Bows, Fire, Thunder, Wind, Light, Staves Lachesis using Steel Blade Offensively: 38 Atk, 14.6 AS, 89.5 Hit Defensively: 41.4 Avoid, 36.8 HP, 17.6 Def, 10.8 Res Yeah, I just compared them using the exact same weapon, but as you know Lachesis can do much better than that. Lachesis is a Master Knight: she can do about ANYTHING for your team. She doesn't need to enter the fray for her EXP, but if there's anything tough you need her help for, she's the one to do it. Comparisons between the two against various Ch4 and Ch5 enemies with these stats. Granted, they'll be higher as time goes on, but the general point will get across. - Pirate L20 *, 55/11/0/6/13/0/11/2, Iron Axe, -5, (6) Holyn does 2x26.7 to them, leaving them with 1 or 2 HP. He kills with Moonlight Hit, but 54% of the time that won't happen. Lachesis beats him with the Steel Blade that 54% of the time. Or she can just use the Hero Axe nobody else except your already capped Lex can use, and deal 38 damage per blow, killing BEFORE the counter, and having another two blows for backup if she ever misses. - Wind Mage L15, 41/1/11/10/13/0/2/9, Elwind, 11 (10) Both of our units one-round them with the given weapons. However, Lachesis whacks them with the Hero Axe before they can respond, and can switch to a Javelin/Hand Axe to discourage counterattacks. Holyn's best option is a magic sword (which Lachesis can use as well), but from his 3.4 Mag that will do dicky damage. And he's not mounted, so he cannot switch weapons after attacking. The boss of these faggots uses a Sleep Staff btw, and Lachesis can use Restore. - Pegasus Knight L18, 53/12/1/12/17/0/10/8, Slim Lance, Slim Sword, 11 (16 with Slim Sword) (9) [Whatever] Bow Lachesis doubles them when they have Slim Lance equipped for two guaranteed criticals and doesn't take a counterattack at all. Holyn one-rounds with Steel Blade but suffers WTD and can therefore miss and he's taking counters. Boss: Deetva *** - Falcoknight L21, 61/13/9/16/21/0/12/14, Silver Sword, Prayer Ring, 18 What a bitch, Holyn cannot even double her and thus deals ~26 damage, or ~38 with Moonlight Hit. Lachesis with Silver Bow has a massive 40 Mt, so she does 68 damage (Critical's *2 coefficient is calculated before substracting Def in FE4). Even with a Steel Bow she deals like 60, so she can finish off after anyone did even a tiny bit of damage. - Armour L19, 59/14/1/10/8/0/15/1, Javelin, -8 (7) These guys stand near Thove castle, on the opposite of the river. Elwind/Elfire Lachesis does 22.9*2 = 45.8 damage and can counterattack, Holyn does 23*2, so again he needs that 46% chance of having Moonlight Hit triggering once. He's not countering their Javelins either without dealing dumb damage with a magic sword. Lachesis can also use Tron if needed (since Tiltyu usually wants the accuracy of Thunder more than the power of Tron since she's usually picking severely weakened low Res units off anyway) to one-round, but that shouldn't be needed. Holyn does a little more damage but not enough to be very significant. - General L20, 60/16/2/12/11/0/18/5, Silver Lance, Steel Bow, -1 (3 with Steel Bow) (3) Holyn does 19.7*2 makes 39.4 damage, 57.4 if he triggers Moonlight Hit once. And in the meanwhile takes 20 damage in the chest from the Silver Lance which has 89.8 Hit on him. Having WTD sucks. Meanwhile, Lachesis with an Elspell does 17.9*2 = 35.8 from a safe distance taking 13 damage from that Steel Bow. Or she uses the Hero Axe for 38 Mt, so she's doing 4x20 damage. She kills even if they activate Great Shield once, whereas that totally ruins Holyn's damage output. - Swordfighter L22, 52/13/2/16/16/0/11/2, Hero Sword, 13 (2) Holyn does one-round them with the Steel Blade, but he's also taking 18 damage from their double Hero Sword slashes. Lachesis one-rounds with her trusty Silver Bow without taking counterattacks, and then she can just switch to whatever she pleases. She's also not at risk of the Sleep Sword Swordfighters on Player Phase, and obviously she wins against the Thunder Mages about as badly as against the Wind Mages. Boss: Lamia *** - Swordmaster L25, 65/19/2/22/22/0/14/5, Silver Blade, Life Ring, 16 Talk about a though customer. Holyn should be able to double by now for about 48 damage total, but will again take a counterattack. Lachesis does 35.8 with Elwind without taking a counterattack, so both are two-rounding. Slight win for Holyn for raw damage per hit, but not enough to compensate for the fact that Lachesis never has to take that 24 damage hit unlike Holyn. That about sums it up for Ch4's enemies, both the most common as well the most threatening ones. Lachesis' wins over Holyn range from noticable to massive here, she is definitely the better fighter. Let's see how this is for Ch5, shall we? Both of their levels will now be 25 or so. You can argue it's a little different but if anything, the more goes to Holyn the more field EXP it takes, whereas for Lachesis she is doing better at combat while also having staves as an EXP source. Holyn L25 Forrest HP: 54.3 Str: 22.9 Mag: 3.6 Skl: 27.0 Spd: 22.9 Def: 16.9 Res: 4.6 Luk: 3.6 Mov: 6 Pursuit, 27% Moonlight Hit Swords Lachesis L25 Master Knight HP: 39.8 Str: 24.3 Mag: 9.1 Skl: 18.3 Spd: 21.6 Def: 18.6 Res: 11.3 Luk: 14.2 Mov: 9 Pursuit, Charisma Swords, Lances, Axes, Bows, Fire, Thunder, Wind, Light, Staves Holyn using Steel Blade Offensively: 38.9 Atk, 16.9 AS, 111.2 Hit Defensively: 37.4 Avoid, 54.3 HP, 16.9 Def, 4.6 Res Lachesis using Hero Axe Offensively: 40.3 Atk, 9.6 AS, 99.5 Hit Defensively: 33.4 Avoid, 39.8 HP, 18.6 Def, 11.3 Res Lachesis using Silver Bow Offensively: 42.3 Atk, 13.6 AS, 109.5 Hit Defensively: 41.4 Avoid, 39.8 HP, 18.6 Def, 11.3 Res Lachesis using Elwind Offensively: 23.1 Atk, 19.6 AS, 109.5 Hit Defensively: 53.4 Avoid, 39.8 HP, 18.6 Def, 11.3 Res - Mountain Thief L30 *, 65/14/0/9/16/0/14/3, Steel Axe, -2 (5) It's like that Pirate from Ch4 all over again. Holyn does 24.9x2 damage with Steel Blade, and thus has a 53% chance of not killing this guy. Lachesis does 4x26 damage for the easy KO with Hero Axe. Or she does what Holyn does with Steel Blade except no Moonlight Hit, or she does a little more with Silver Bow except she's not taking a counter. Lachesis is, as always, the winner. - Axearmour L17, 57/14/1/10/8/0/15/1, Steel Axe, -10 (5) Holyn doing 23.9*2 and taking a counter versus Lachesis doing 22.1*2 with Elwind and not taking a counter, or doing 25*4 with Hero Axe and one-rounding them. Yeah. - Thunder Mage L17, 43/1/12/14/11/0/2/10, Elthunder, 4 (2) Both one-round, though Lachesis kicks its ass with Hero Axe before they can blink. And Elwind Lachesis has WTA and counters perfectly whereas Holyn's ranged option sucks and he cannot switch weapons after attacking. - General L20, 60/16/2/12/11/0/18/5, Hero Axe, -1 Holyn does 20.9*2 = 41.8. Lachesis does 18.1*2 = 36.2 with Elwind or 24.3 * 2 = 48.6 with Silver Bow. And she is not getting countered by that double Hero Axe. Even if Moonlight Hit triggers once, Holyn is not killing. - Axeknight L17, 47/12/1/11/11/0/11/1, Steel Axe, -7 (9) Classic. Lachesis kills these guys with 29*2 damage from Hero Axe repeatedly. Holyn is stuck leaving them at 1HP if we round his Atk up to 39. Boss: Slaydar ** - Great Knight L20, 60/18/2/13/13/0/16/5, Silver Axe, -5 24*4 damage from the Hero Axe sends this faggot to his grave, whereas Holyn's 2x23 isn't impressing anyone. He'll need Moonlight Hit to mimic Lachesis here again. Lachesis can also just do ranged with Silver Bow again and outdamage Holyn that way. - Archknight L18, 48/12/1/11/11/0/11/1, Hero Bow, 3 (8) This is a total joke. Holyn is again not one-rounding without Moonlight Hit. Lachesis with her Silver Bow does 31*2 and actually counterattacks. A good case of massive rape. Of course she can use Hero Axe on the player phase to not take a counterattack from them. Boss: Andre **** - Bowknight L22, 60/16/2/14/14/0/14(+5)/5, Hero Bow, Shield Ring, 6 If you're not letting his sister kill this guy, Lachesis does quite nicely. 21*4 from Hero Axe, down before you know it. Counters on player phase while Holyn is doing 40 damage unless Moonlight Hit triggers. In which case he still isn't one-rounding. We've discussed Generals and obviously neither of our units is going to face Langobart. Now it's time to head into the desert. Yes, Lachesis' movement is being hindered by the sand, but so is Holyn's. I lack exact terrain numbers, but I believe Holyn can walk 3 squares whereas Lachesis walks two. Lachesis being able to move after attacking something will easily compensate for that. - Dragon Knight L18, 58/15/1/12/11/0/16/1, Horseslayer, -5 (13) Oh boohoo, Horseslayer. Before we compare our units defensively here, let's just note that Lachesis RAPES them with her Silver Bow and Holyn obviously leaves them hanging. Now, defensively, it looks like Holyn is finally about to claim some sort of win here. Too bad that even with the Critical bonus they get, they're doing about 31 damage, so Lachesis lives. They do 9 to Holyn, which admittedly isn't much when looking at his HP. Now, the chance that Holyn gets hit is about 65% due to WTD. Lachesis with her Hero Axe actually has WTA over them, so they only have about 30% chance to hit her. If you supply her with Sigurd's leadership, that becomes 20%. If Beowulf's her lover and stands near her, that becomes 10%. Holyn with the same treatment (leadership + lover) plus the Charisma from Lachesis (!) has a 35% chance to get hit now. Looking at the overall picture, they both survive a good bunch of assaults, only Lachesis is doing better offensively in both phases, and defensively winning on player phase due to not getting countered. Does that mean...Lachesis wins even against these guys?  Boss: Magorn *** - Dragon Master L25, 70/19/2/16/14/0/21(+5)/2, Hero Lance, Shield Ring, 2 Another easy kill for Lachesis' Silver Bow of doom before he can even put up resistance. Over 80 effective Mt is nothing to sneeze at. Holyn? 2x13 damage, needs 3 rounds to kill. He needs 2 Moonlight Hits to be able to one-round him. And then he is still getting countered for 17x2 damage with WTA and good accuracy in general for his opponent. This just screams "Lachesis is winning". - Firemage L18 *, 44/1/15/11/11/0/2/10, Meteo, Elfire, -1 (-19 with Meteo) (6) Nothing fancy here, they just do more damage with Meteo to Holyn than to Lachesis. I could show results of Holyn and Lachesis versus Reptor's army if you like, or any other enemy in Ch4 and Ch5, and Lachesis would be the winner, or at least tie in the absolute worst case. And this is all not taking into account that Lachesis is giving everyone around her Charisma bonus, she's making Beowulf or even Azel better with a lover bonus and...she has staves! Free EXP alone is still a big plus, but besides that it obviously keeps your army alive. Got hit by these dumb Sleep Priests in the Desert? Lachesis can use Restore. Need general healing? Lachesis has the most healing range of EVERYBODY. Fury is mounted but has no Libro, Levin/Aideen/Claude can use Libro but have less movement. Lachesis is both mounted and can use Libro. Need to transport people from Thove to your home castle or Silesia in Ch4, or from the fray at Barhara to a usable castle? Lachesis can use both Return and Warp. Need your entire army cured? Lachesis can Reserve. Lachesis is by far the most versatile unit in the game when she promotes, and arguably as good as Holy weapon users at fighting, at least better than Holyn. The only thing that Holyn has over her is that he is fighting in chapters 2 and 3, but that is a double-edged sword as he's taking EXP away from others, and nearly your entire army could fight in his stead. Also, forgot to factor in her conversation with Beowulf that boosts her stats. Heh. |
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| Sentenal | Nov 27 2007, 03:06 PM Post #3 |
When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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Well, okay, lets get started with this bastard. I'm not going to let you smother me with numbers. First, your early point, with the EXP rank. Lachesis does indeed gain more levels than Holyn. She does indeed drawn from the healing EXP pool as well. However, it seems that all your arguements leading up to Lachesis' promotion is that gaining more levels>Anything else. And just look at some of the things you are suggesting doing!
If this isn't babying, I don't know what is. Lets just talk about some of this stuff. One, you are having a unit fight repeatedly in the arena, getting his ass kicked every time, just for Lachesis to heal. Now, let me quote something else you said: "You need to level up every unit to their maximum potential to stand a chance at reaching the amount of required level-ups." Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but how does suiciding a person time after time help that person level up to their maximum potential? It looks me me like you are having them sitting around, artifically boosting Lachesis' level at the cost of their own. Not to mention doing this will kill their weapon, causing you to have to spend more money, and cost you alot of money in staves (and since she is sitting there healing, she isn't getting money from villages or with the theif sword). Both units need to be leveled. Is that all that matters? Hell no. Ease of getting that EXP is important. With Lachesis, you have to baby the hell out of her to get all that EXP. No matter how you look at it, that is a disadvantage! Holyn? Well, he doesn't have the stave pool to draw EXP from, but Holyn also has an advantage that Lachesis doesn't, at least for now. The Arena EXP pool. Holyn is one of your most powerful units, and one of few who can actually complete the Arena. The more levels and EXP that he gets from the arena, the less EXP he needs to get from combat, taking EXP away from other people. And, he gets all his EXP easily. Holyn basically kills nearly every single unit he fights in one round, during chapter 2. Moonlight hit + High STR + High SPD=Offensive monster. When playing, you we have two objectives. One, obviously, is getting the best ranks possible. The second one, which goes without saying normally, is completing the game. Holyn plowing through chapters 2 and 3 TONS better than Lachesis does, helps you complete the game easier than any advantage a Master Knight Lachesis might have over Holyn later on. But, lets now look later on into the game. Now, lets use your own words again.
So, lets take this to the next level. Any unit getting beyond 20 levels of EXP, is lessening the amount of EXP that other units can get, if they are getting it through combat. And doing that makes getting the EXP rank that much harder. If you think about it like this, Lachesis fighting past level 22ish, when she finally ABLE to attack, hurts your EXP rank. Holyn, on the other hand, needs to gain as many levels as he possibily can, do help the EXP rank as much as he can. Holyn needs to fight all the way to level 30. Now then. Lots of your examples has Lachesis one rounding them, and Holyn leaving them at low health. Now, Lachesis also shouldn't be fighting, letting other people get EXP. She already got her 20 levels, and can just ride the rest out on healing. Holyn fighting, gets him EXP, and against certain enemies, doesn't kill them, which allows for WEAKER units, who you HAVE to level up, get an easy kill. So, I'll wrap this up. Earlygame: Both gain EXP. Lachesis has to be babied for 20 levels, which (according to you) requires another unit to be taken from the field to suicide in the arena, so Lachesis can heal. Holyn drawns lots of EXP from the Arena, and massacres much of the enemies he fights in chapter 2 and 3. Much better than Lachesis, in terms of actually helping to complete the chapters. Later: Lachesis got her 20 levels. She has met the average amount of levels a unit must get. Any more levels she gains in the Combat EXP pool, takes potiental levels away from people who have not gained that 20 levels yet. So basically, its still Healer vs Offense (healing doesn't drain any EXP pool), unless you want to hurt your EXP rank. Healing doesn't complete the game, offense does. Holyn has not gained the most EXP as he can yet. Holyn, unlike Lachesis, is helping to fulfill your quota of 20 levels per character, by continuing to fight at this point. In most scenarios, both units will one-round their enemy. However, in select situations, Holyn doesn't one round. That means both EXP for Holyn, and EXP for whoever finished it off. Win for Holyn. Lachesis already getting those 20 levels is good for nothing other than the EXP rank. If she fights more, she hurts it. Holyn fighting more, doesn't. And then you have Holyn being vastly superior earlygame. Holyn>Lachesis. |
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| Mekkah | Nov 28 2007, 10:28 AM Post #4 |
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I'll do it with arguments then. Obligatory good luck wishing here.
I won't pretend that gaining more levels is >all. However, it certainly is an important aspect of it.
It's not babying. It would be babying if other units and ranks were hurt or denied kills or something. Indeed, if a unit stays behind with Lachesis, he might be deprived of EXP from the field campaign. But that EXP suddendly isn't lost or anything: it will go to other units. You can leave your most retarded combat unit at that point behind with Lachesis. That would be Ardan, but since Ardan is going to the beach to find a Pursuit Ring, you can use someone else who isn't much of a help in the first part of Chapter 2, and then Ardan take over the slacking since he's useless anyway. A good candidate for this would be Dew. He has to get near Lachesis to give her the Thief Sword anyway. Of course they shouldn't be standing next to each other too much so they don't fall in love, but that's easy since entering and then exiting a castle allows you to move the remainder of your movement. Both Ardan and Dew are pretty good at not kicking ass in the arena of Ch2. There is no way Dew ever gets past Lovin the Lanceknight, let alone the Lance Armor. Ardan MIGHT get past those if he's uber lucky (he will get a bazillion attempts and the Pursuit Ring after all), but the Thunder Mage with Shield Ring is too much for him. They're not missing out on anything, really. Your mounted units will conquer Heirhein before turn 11 to get the crucial Bargain Ring, so these two are never making it there to begin with. Dew can technically make it to the Free Knight army if he hurries up, but he'd likely only get one or two chances to steal 2000G and he deals like 5 damage while risking death, so he is more of a hinder than a help. Then against the Armors of Amphony (or Heirhein for that matter) he doesn't do anything. After your goal becomes McKeily and Augustia, Dew can tag along with everyone else while Ardan takes over. He is in grave danger against McKeily's Fire Mages and also gets doubled by both the Swordfighters and the Bowfighters, and might get put to sleep by Clement. Then you rush to Augustria and there's Javelin Armors and a bunch of mounted units he sucks against. Better off letting your 6, 8 and 9 move units go for the tactics rating. So, these two would be useless if you keep them in the "main army", and they are much more useful if they keep Lachesis company. The second point you brought up is money loss. Well, here's the news: Holyn fighting with his Iron or Steel Blade is costing money as well. Less per use than Lachesis' Live Staff, yes, but don't pretend his leveling is free. And money isn't an issue, even if Lachesis isn't getting any villages. She comes with freaking 10,000G: she can repair her own Live Staff twice with that if you completely break it. Add 2500G from the first two levels of the arena which she can easily beat, perhaps even 4500G or 7000G if she manages to trigger Prayer with her Prayer Sword against the next opponents. No need for it, but hey, it's there. Then she can sell her Prayer Sword for ~4000G since she doesn't need it after getting the maximum out of the arena, and the Thief Sword for 500G. And then Chapter 2 ends, and she gets the Knight Ring which is worth 20,000G. In Chapter 3 she also gets money because you kept all allied castles intact (if you don't, your tactics rank drops), and for some last minute repairing she gets she insanely pricy Earth Sword from Elthsan which can be sold for 5000G. There is no funds rank or anything, so as long as Lachesis has enough money to have enough stave uses left to promote, she is a-okay. She only needs 1800EXP to promote, which is 120 times using Live, and she can already afford 100 of that with her starting money. So Lachesis can heal, promote and still buy Christmas presents for Elthsan, Beowulf AND Fin without getting red numbers on her credit card.  The unit that's losing in the arena loses a really small amount of money. Iron Swords cost just 1000G to buy (and since you likely can get one from the Pawn Shop where it's used, it's even cheaper), and when it's broken there is no need to repair it since you can just proceed to use it in the arena. For absolutely free, with a nearly guaranteed loss. They only need to fight every 2-3 turns too, because Lachesis doesn't heal their HP completely yet. Or you could leave Aideen/Ethlin with them if you wanted to so you can heal more often every turn and so they can sell their staves to other people later, such as Claude, Levin, Fury and...Lachesis. I'd like you to define babying for me, because it seems to imply that someone else in your army is losing out, or your rank is losing out. But all I see is that you are putting two offensively retarded units to good use to realize a really good unit's amazing potential. I mean, who else can say they improve this much from a promotion? We're talking about +7/+0/+7/+4/+7/+0 and 7 extra weapons here. Now, Holyn, he is actually using a resource that others want to use. And he cannot one-round Armors without getting Moonlight Hit twice, so he will need some kill set up for him. It's almost as if :gasp: Holyn is being babied!
"At least now" indeed. It's like Holyn's only true victory, better rub it in. Yes, Holyn can gain more levels than Lachesis in the arena. But can he play the arena all day long? No, he still has to get field EXP, and Lachesis doesn't at all. High this, high that. Holyn isn't destroying everything in one round. Moonlight Hit isn't guaranteed, and he needs it TWICE to one-round Armors. With 20 Skl, he's not triggering anything 64% of the time. I'll give him that he can one-round things like Free Knights, Swordfighters, Fire Mages and lolLongArcs though. But then you tried to hold the fact that Lachesis one-rounding things in Ch4 and Ch5 against me because she would be preventing others from EXP. Apparently only Holyn is allowed to say he helps the team by one-rounding. You can only get ranks if you complete the game, and one of the ranks is actually determined by how quickly you complete the game, so I don't see why you're trying to make them into seperate points. I suppose Holyn is technically helping this quick-seizing a little bit more during Ch2 and Ch3. However, let's try to imagine what happens if we leave Holyn off the team. You lose a combat unit - a good one, fair enough, but it's just a combat unit. How many others do you have that fight and kill and do what Holyn does? At this point, you have 13 of them, not counting Dew, Ardan, Lachesis, Ethlin, Aideen, Sylvia and Deirdre as fighters for obvious reasons (though Ethlin can fight with her Light Sword). How much of an impact is it going to have whether you have 13 or 14 combat units? I'd wager not much at all. If Holyn made completing chapters possible, or faster by a really high amount, you would have a point. As it is, Holyn's total contribution might be like...2, 3 turns off the tactics rank maybe? Whereas Lachesis is gaining about 9 of these precious level-ups in this chapter and then 9 in Ch3 and then 10 in the next two, which is completely necessary to S-rank. I'd wager Master Knight Lachesis is contributing more to that rank than anything else too, considering her insane amount of staff utility while also being able to remove 99% of the enemies with no sweat at all.
Holyn fighting beyond L22 gains just as much EXP as Lachesis does. The difference is that he HAS to do field combat, and is also worse at it than Master Knight Lachesis, while Lachesis also has an alternative that allows her to not fight at all, which in turn allows other units (such as Holyn) to take her share of combat EXP. If Holyn needs all the field EXP he can get to L30 while Lachesis can do it without interfering with other units' resources at all, would that be a point to Holyn or a point to Lachesis? Whether Holyn gets to L30 is a good question in itself too, because I'm sure there's plenty of people who are still below L20 even in Chapter 5 (think Tiltyu, Ardan, Dew, perhaps Noish), and those would gain a lot more than Holyn from attacking or killing something.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that Lachesis cannot weaken things for others to kill? If anything she does it BETTER than Holyn, because - she doesn't take counterattacks from 1-range people, while Holyn does - her amazing weapon versatility allows her to pick the perfect weapon for not one-rounding. All Holyn has for tuning his damage amount is going with an Iron Sword or something, whereas Lachesis can theoretically do any amount of damage to about any enemy. - she's mounted, so she can step aside to make room for someone like Tiltyu or Dew to finish off a crippled enemy - she's mounted, so she can reach more enemies, pick an enemy that's easier to finish off for the weak unit (for example, units outside of leadership range) - she's mounted, so she's at the frontlines earlier, so she can work together with Leg Ring Tiltyu/Dew/Ardan - she's mounted, so if she's weakening for units that have low movement she can still catch up with the rest of the group afterwards - her Charisma gives these babied units a slight boost in hit and evade - she can use a staff whenever there's nothing to weaken - she's able to one-round other things on the field if the weaker unit's protection is a priority, or if that weaker unit already found another target to pick off And if Holyn triggers Moonlight Hit against something he would normally leave at anywhere between 1 and the difference between his Atk and the enemy's Def, then he is killing. Based on the RNG, something you cannot control. Lachesis doesn't run that risk at all. You've also left Lachesis' amazing staff utility, Charisma boost to others and lover boost during the endgame completely uncountered, while those certainly help complete chapters faster, especially the ability to Warp/Return people. And of course healing allows other units to advance faster as well. Don't give me the "healing doesn't complete chapters" bullshit. Seizing is the only thing that completes chapters - Holyn can fight all day long and kill bosses, but it won't complete chapters. Your fighters actually need healing once in a while (this game doesn't even have Vulneraries, Elixirs or en-route forts to make up for it) or they, you know, die. If Sigurd is put to Sleep, is Holyn going to wake him up and save 4 turns of waiting? No? He doesn't help complete the chapter at that point then. Do you have an assload of other fighters who could take Holyn's job at killing stuff? Yes, you do. What effect would removing Holyn from the game have? 16 less levels on the EXP rank, actually you'd lose less than that because others now gain more field EXP and thus have a higher level potential. What effect would removing Lachesis from the game have? Besides misc stuff like having to fight Elthsan, not getting the Earth Sword, Knight Ring and Thief Sword, you miss out on 28 levels of EXP, a bunch of healing utility, a force more massive than Holyn's in Ch4 and Ch5, and one unit wouldn't get a lover and therefore no lover bonus.
Woah. According to your logic, if Lachesis didn't have staves ever, her fighting beyond 20s wouldn't hurt EXP, because she needs the EXP to get to L30 now. Despite the fact that she is getting the same amount. Needing something other field units want (EXP) > not needing that something. What you see in the game is that Lachesis can ride to L30 without knowing what an enemy unit is, but that is merely a consequence of a positive property: not needing field EXP. The fact that she trumps Holyn at fighting during Ch4 and Ch5 but doesn't need to do it and thereby frees up EXP for others shows just how hax she is. So: Ch2 Lachesis allows two craptastic units to be good for something and boosts the EXP rank by 9 levels. She obtains the Thief Sword and the Knight Ring. Negatives: ohno she spends gold Holyn kills enemies, maybe saves a turn or two for your tactics rank and boosts the EXP rank by 3-4 levels or so. Negatives: He takes EXP away from other units, rendering any EXP gain on the field when it comes to boosting the EXP rank effectively null. Ch3 Lachesis boosts the EXP rank by another 9 levels. She obtains the Earth Sword and she scares Elthsan away. She can actually heal and do the Charisma thing on the field now due to lack of dumb NPC Paladins, so she also supports the team. (maybe promoted) Holyn kills enemies, maybe saves a turn or two for your tactics rank and boosts the EXP rank by 3-4 levels or so. Negatives: He takes EXP away from other units, rendering any EXP gain on the field when it comes to boosting the EXP rank effectively null. Ch4 Lachesis promotes, and from here does whatever you need her to. Heal the team, weaken enemies (for Holyn, perhaps), kill enemies (and maybe save a turn or two on your tactics rank), Charisma support, Warp/Return people, save villages. Negatives: every time she attacks, she is taking a bit of EXP that others could have gotten. Promoted Holyn kills enemies, maybe saves a turn or two for your tactics rank and boosts the EXP rank by 3-4 levels or so. Negatives: He takes EXP away from other units, rendering any EXP gain on the field when it comes to boosting the EXP rank effectively null. Or maybe he's weakening just like Lachesis can except do it worse. Or maybe he is accidentally triggering Moonlight Hit and killing something that you were reserving for Tiltyu. Too bad, Tiltyu, should've asked Lachesis instead! Ch5 Lachesis: See above, minus promoting because she did that already. Promoted Holyn kills enemies, maybe saves a turn or two for your tactics rank and boosts the EXP rank by 3-4 levels or so. Negatives: He takes EXP away from other units, rendering any EXP gain on the field when it comes to boosting the EXP rank effectively null. Or maybe he's weakening just like Lachesis can except do it worse. Or maybe he is accidentally triggering Moonlight Hit and killing something that you were reserving for Tiltyu. Too bad, Tiltyu, should've asked Lachesis instead! So overall, looking at what you need to S-rank... Complete the game in 400 or fewer turns. If we're nice to Holyn, he saves 6-7 turns or so here. Lachesis using Warp/Return/healing/Charisma'ing allies so they can advance faster > that, easily. And then you add Lachesis' possibility to speed up Ch4 and Ch5 with her own superior fighting abilities, and obviously she has a horse... Level up 982 times or more. Holyn levels up 16 times, using arena and field EXP. Lachesis levels up 28 times, and can do it with just staves and a bit of the arena. Have everyone live. Holyn...doesn't die. Lachesis doesn't either. But Lachesis also makes other people survive with staves and Charisma. Guess who helps more with that? Have three or fewer total unit defeats/battle losses. Kinda like above - Holyn doesn't really do anything for survival ranks. Lachesis owns Holyn at everything, even at incest. |
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| +Ema Skye | Jan 7 2008, 03:30 PM Post #5 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Sentenal can't take the tl;dr! |
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MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH
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9:14 AM Nov 8
