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| Mekkah vs Solid; Fiora vs Geitz | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 8 2008, 01:26 PM (208 Views) | |
| Mekkah | Jan 8 2008, 01:26 PM Post #1 |
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If you're leaving a spot open in your team for one of these two, I'd prefer to put Fiora there for Geitz. Why? Because Fiora is guaranteed to exist while such is not the case with Geitz. To get Geitz, you must train Eliwood. Eliwood turns out good later, but early on he is complete crap. Low power, worst defensive statistics out of everyone except Rebecca, no range, WTD against the majority of enemies. He basically sucks in arguably the hardest part of the game, and thus he's only making it harder. I don't want that. To get Geitz, you must train Lyn. Lyn is kind of like a Lowen that replaces defense with offense: horrible at one, good at the other, but not so good to warrant use. Lyn's evade looks good until supports of others kick in, and from there it's unreliable. Like Eliwood, no 1-2 range and durability fail means I must spend a lot of healing on her to use her, or rely on her shaky dodge. To get Geitz, I must kind of cap out Hector ASAP while his EXP could go to other units while I'd rather let him have some breathing room between now and his uberlate promotion, if only so he gains EXP from killing Vaida's wyvern friends. Then, you either need to put them on your permanent team and go and waste 20k for each just for promoting them due to lame Heaven Seal, or ditch them and essentially, you will have wasted an assload of EXP just to get Geitz, while I could just give it to my main team and thus have a better team. Plus, I need to field Dart to even recruit the guy, and send a lure or Ninian in that direction too (the total opposite direction my characters should take to finish the map ASAP). No, I don't want to train Dart, he just trashes the funds rank, kk. Fuck you Geitz, you have all of this going against you before even considering combat, and then Fiora also supports everyone's two favourite cavalier duo with full Atk (and in Sain's case, full Crt) or Florina for double flier sex, and she has flier utility for transporting people (Pent in the desert chapter anyone? just an example there). Geitz needs a lot of combat win or something to make up for all of that, so I bet you'll be doing your best on that. Good luck! |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Jan 9 2008, 07:30 PM Post #2 |
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Good luck to you as well! I'll try to keep it pretty brief since these are the first two posts and we're trying to avoid tl;dr.
Earlygame, you also have very few units, and no one besides Marcus is consistently one-rounding, so removing any one unit significantly decreases your attacking force. *Not* using Eliwood during this period of time is a disadvantage, to you, in fact. All you get from doing that is a wasted unit slot, whereas, had you actually used Eliwood, he could have benefited your team by weakening or finishing enemies (even if his offense starts pretty low). Then, by the time you get the Character Select Screen, there are so few long-range alternatives to Eliwood that you’re definitely going to be using him anyway (lol Wil or Bartre—training them is a complete waste of energy), and soon after that he’ll have built up a few levels of Hector/Lowen support and will be on his way to being a good unit. By level 15-16 w/full supports, he's actually one of the tankier figures on your team, and he gets massive points for that.
Didn’t you just say “earlygame is arguably the hardest part of the game” in discussing Eliwood? And here you want to actually not use one of your best earlygame units (and one you can’t even replace for another one, in fact) just so that he can be used later on instead? lol, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Also, if Hector isn’t used early on, he’s not benefiting your team, whereas if he isn’t used later on, he can still be providing support bonuses and be useful at combat (despite hurting EXP Rank). Being useful both early and late >> just being useful late, especially when “earlygame is arguably the hardest part of the game,” as you say.
You only need to get Lyn to level 10 to get Geitz (assuming Hector and Eliwood get to level 20), and you can easily do that in LHM, where her combat performance is actually good due to durability not mattering, so w/e @ training Lyn being some sort of detriment. Additionally, earlygame Lyn is actually pretty good. Thanks to huge Speed—second only to Matthew and Guy—at a time when even people like Kent and Erk aren’t doubling yet, a high level from LHM, Mani Katti, and an uberfast Florina support, she probably has the best offense on your whole team early on (you compared her to Lowen, but Lowen’s defense doesn’t get good until later, and even then it’s not the best on the team until post-promotion, whereas Lyn’s offense starts amazing the moment she joins). In fact, it’s funny that you mention Lyn, because you’ll notice that, before promotion, Fiora is similar to Lyn, with one exception: she's quite a bit worse. Like Lyn, Fiora has pretty bad concrete durability, only, unlike Lyn, she starts underlevelled, gets a Bow weakness, and can’t use defensive terrain, so she’s a good deal worse than Lyn is in the defense department. She has high Speed, just like Lyn, but unfortunately, by the time Fiora arrives, huge Speed doesn’t matter as much, as most people are doubling pretty consistently then. Plus she doesn’t have the Mani Katti for h4x again Cavaliers and Knights, and has no other form of offensive bonuses since she doesn’t have supports yet. Indeed, it seems that Fiora is actually being a lot more damaging to your team early on that Lyn is (and you don’t even actually have to use Lyn in HHM if you trained her in LHM, whereas not using Fiora means she phails in comparison to Geitz later on). So, while Geitz forces you to use Eliwood, Hector, and Lyn earlygame (one of which you can train in LHM, and the other two of which you’re almost guaranteed to be using anyway), any detriment you face from that is completely overridden by the massive suckage that Fiora gives your team before Geitz even arrives. In fact, it’s so horrible that’s it turned in the opposite direction. w1n for Geitz.
You need to field him, not train him. All that fielding Dart does is use up a unit slot, and Geitz fills that anyway when you recruit him, so you break even. Or, if you were using Dart anyway, you actually end up ahead, and get to use an additional unit that chapter. w1n. I like how you mentioned Dart “destroying” the Funds Rank, btw, especially since that’s one of the areas where Geitz massively ownz Fiora. Not only are both of Fiora’s weapons more expensive than Geitz’s main weapon, but Fiora is using weapons for several chapters before Geitz even arrives, and she also has to use a promotion item while he doesn’t. 10k from promotion +5k from pre-Geitz weaponz (Killers included) + 5k from more expensive weapon types = about 20k altogether. That’s about the same negative as you get to your Funds Rank by having to use Dart (21k), rofl. And you don't even need to use Dart for Geitz (unless you want him as a supporter), so Geitz has a huge Funds advantage.
Actually, Geitz only needs to match Fiora in combat for Fiora to be losing, since she’s already got a pretty big negative going for her by suxing massively early on and he doesn't. Anyway... Geitz’s main victory against Fiora is defense. When he joins: Geitz: 44 HP, 11.8 Def, 38 Avo 19/0 Fiora (A Florina/B Kent): 29.4 HP, 10.4 Def, 52 Avo lol, all Fiora has is a piddly Avoid lead, and her Avoid isn’t even high enough to be considered reliable. She loses Avoid from pretty much any decent weapon she wieldsl; with Killer Lance, for example, her Avoid is reduced to 46, and with a Javelin that becomes 42, giving her an mighty 4-point lead over Geitz. Then, against the average Bow user, the Def gaps increases by 9, so Fiora is phailing even harder when they face those enemies. But the fun doesn’t stop there. Geitz has Bows, for not taking damage from melee enemies on Player Phase whenever he wants (Fiora can imitate this with Javelin, but, unlike with Geitz’s Bows, there’s no such thing as Killer Javelin or Silver Javelin, and she loses much-needed Avo from using it anyway, so it’s poor mimicry at best). He can also use defensive terrain, giving him at least +1 Def and +20 Avo, which not only erases Fiora’s Avo lead but actually pushes it in the other direction, w1n. Given all of that, I’d say that Geitz’s durability lead is pretty massive at this point, and things don’t change much as the game goes on. Fiora gains promotion bonuses, but soon Geitz is going to be actually building up supports, so the gap actually increases from that: 12 Geitz (B Dorcas, B Dart): 51.6 HP, 15.6 Def, 68.8 Avo 20/11 Fiora (A Florina/B Kent): 42.1 HP, 14.6 Def, 65.9 Avo lolh4x. Same advantages as before, only now Geitz is actually leading in Avoid, ftmw. You could probably argue against the use of Dorcas, but he’s an amazing earlygame contender (and, in your words, “earlygame is arguably the hardest part of the game”), and then he stays pretty decent throughout the game with massive Atk, big HP, and great supports (supporting Oswin = pretty w1n, since he struggles to get full supports). And . . . that’s all he really needs to be considered viable, so w/e. Offensively, well, it’s Atk vs. AS. Anything that Geitz can double, he wins against, and that’s most things except for really fast enemies like Heroes, Swordmasters, and Nomad Troopers. He wins against stuff like Wyverns, Generals, Warriors, Paladins, etc, so he’s easily winning overall (lol @ enemy AS values in this game). Winning both offense and defense while present and not sucking massively beforehand makes Geitz the winner in this comparison. Fiora only has flying to compete, but you’ll notice that she’s supporting Florina, so there’s already another unit guaranteed to be on the team who can do this, and flying would need to w1n massively in the first place for her to be able to override Geitz’s other advantages, and it actually does the opposite, since it removes her from her support partners a lot of the time (yes, even Florina sometimes) and doesn’t let her use terrain, phail. Geitz = WinRar. |
| this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER | |
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| Mekkah | Jan 11 2008, 07:51 AM Post #3 |
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tl;dr you are disqualified Eliwood
If Eliwood wants to be in the positive, he would have to do damage and take no damage or something - kind of like Rebecca on player phase. However, if Eliwood attacks anything but a Brigand while he's standing on terrain, he gets hit and requires Serra attention or a vulnerary. And Eliwood is not even remotely durable yet. Everything here is in real hit, with enemy samples from Ch12. L1 Eliwood - 18 HP, 5 Def, 0 Res, 21 evade, 7 AS Brigands have ~52 hit on him and do 10/18 damage, 2HKO Mercs have 97% hit on him and do 6/18 damage, 3HKO, and also have a shot at doubling (their base Spd is 10) Archers have 86% hit on him and do 8/18 damage, 3HKO. They don't counter Eliwood, but Eliwood doesn't counter them either. Pegasi (Iron) have 98% hit on him and do 10/18 damage, 2HKO, and have massive range. He also does the least damage out of everyone except Rebecca to anything but a cavalier with his measly 12 Atk with Rapier, and he doesn't have range unlike EVERYONE else except Matthew (and Serra I guess). For him to be a clear positive, he would have to deal finishing blows only (and god hope he doesn't miss, which happens with terrain and lances everywhere). If Eliwood is doing that, can I give Fiora some of that treatment as well? After all, you said Fiora is suxxing massively when Geitz isn't even around...yet Eliwood is doing the same when Fiora isn't around, and Eliwood is a part of Geitz. The Character Select Screen comes at Ch14 already, when Wil isn't even there yet...if you want to use Wil as an argument, try including that you have Hector Oswin Kent Sain Lowen Florina Erk Serra Priscilla Guy Matthew "Dorcas" "Lyn" by now, and if you're going to put soon in the equation I may as well add Raven and Lucius. That's plenty of people I could want to bring over Eliwood, some arguable, some clearly. I've already handed you that Eliwood becomes great once he gets rolling, but that isn't happening while he is sucking earlygame, when he only has C-B Hector yet. Lowen is very questionable anyway - some chapters like whereabouts Unknown require some cavalier charging, and others like Port of Badon have very few unit slots that I want to fill with units that are doing something. In this particular case, I'd want to do Hector (required)/Oswin (Damian)/Raven (EXP from L4 Pirates)/Guy (hax against jacked pirates)/Florina (villages + talk to Fargus)/Healer (duh), and then even if Eliwood is given consideration because of his support with Hector or something, I would still want a ranged attacker such as Erk over him to help with these scary pirates. And Lowen himself isn't that great - his bases are somewhat impressive, but his growths and lack of jawsome supports (Eliwood is his only friend really) screw him over lategame, and I'm already in a fuss over Knight Crests. His durability after promotion may be good, but durability is something nobody really has problems with at that point. Offense and doubling is where Lowen struggles, and everyone else is at the point of doing that while Lowen tends to fail at that. Hector
I'd be insane if I said anything like "I don't want to use Hector". He gets plenty of necessary use early on. However, I have no reason to continue powerpumping him once, say, Whereabouts Unknown runs around and my team is shaping up. He has the least reason of everyone to be trained by now, because he has until the end of Cog of Destiny to get to 20. Assuming you don't go to 19xx, that's like 0.588 levels per chapter between Noble Lady and Cog of Destiny, assuming he's at L10 there. That's like half of what everyone else is assumed to get normally. If I want Hector at 20 at the end of Genesis, that means he needs like 0.9 level per chapter. Early on that won't be difficult, but the HM EXP cut will catch up to him, and he also has to use one turn to seize usually, and there's shit like him being slow in Living Legend and having to recruit Hawkeye out of enemy range. Plus, now Hector's attacking powers are 100% useless between Four Fanged Offense and Cog of Destiny and he has slowed down the leveling and promotion of others. Not using Hector at all can be seen as a sin, but powerleveling him to 20 before FFO is something I would rather not do. Lyn Getting Lyn to L10 alone in LHM is hurting Kent/Sain/Erk/Matt/Florina - spreading it evenly, they should be about L7-8 at the end. Lyn cannot even Lundgrenabuse to up her level a bit as she gets raped by his Silver Lance and cannot do ranged. She'd have to take up Nils and Serra attention to survive. Also, assuming Lyn only needs 10 means Eliwood has to cap at the end of Genesis as well, and unlike Hector he isn't hax at all early on, so he'll have some trouble with that, plus then he is useless during FFO and Crazed Beast. Earlygame Lyn's offense is indeed fairly good, it's her defense that lacks: locked to swords and therefore no 1-2 range, therefore requiring healing all the time or having to stay back unless she fights axes? Nothx. Fiora, however, has 1-2 range and massive flexibility. If you're going to chastise her for not getting terrain bonuses, at least mention being able to fly right over it in one breath. You're just jealeous Geitz doesn't have wings like cute Myrrh, because in fact being a flier is better than not being a flier. More movement, move again, massive aid, and not hindered by terrain clearly is better than not being weak to bows and getting terrain bonuses. It's 4 wins vs 2 wins here, with kind of hard to compare things. Saying Fiora is damaging to your team is pretty funny - I don't quite see how Fiora is damaging while the massive amount of treatment the lords need for Geitz to :exist: isn't. Fiora gets to pick her fights on her own and can throw a Javelin and still be safe most of the time. She can do shit like flying over to Kishuna's Sniper friends and hit them for massive EXP while everyone else is busy down south. Plus she's supporting at least two people in your army...if you're going to say a capped Hector gets points for that, give some to Fiora as well.
I did say field not train, in fact. Uhm, what are you even babbling about with funds? Dart's promotion ALONE is 50k...his negative is 21k because of the 29k set aside for him. Fiora has that too. They arrive at the same fucking chapter too, and for some reason you aren't even counting Dart's weapons "killers included" yet, or "expensive weapons". What expensive weapons is Fiora using before Geitz arrives? How much would she actually need to use to cost 10k on weapons alone? If every unit costed that much just for ~8 chapters, imagine how much someone like Guy, Eliwood or Lowen goes over the limit, seeing as they're around for longer, in a longer time without Silver Card, and in the case of Eliwood, having to use the 6k Rapier. Plus, try including that training Eliwood to 20 kind of implies you're promoting him in Unfulfilled Heart...20k promotion cost hi. If we use Fiora over Geitz, I can sub that with a prepromote and take that 20k off the bill, or at least with a normal 10k unit. Combat
Again, I like how Fiora is in the negative solely for existing, lol. Supports + flier utility + 1-2 range + flexibilty + some EXP rank help sounds more like a positive to me. 19/0 Fiora...way to pick the time best for Geitz. Fiora promotes way before Geitz even has a C with anyone, so it's safe to say this is when the gap is smallest. Also, Fiora is kind of owed a Body Ring from Living Legend. Nobody else but Florina is using that thing and getting as much out of it. The only people who lose Spd from their basic weapons are Serra, Nino and Pegasi. Serra only loses 1 AS from Lightning and won't notice this at all, especially since she is using a staff most of the time. Nino only exists for a couple of chapters, and if used, is dealing killing blows which means AS doesn't matter for her, especially since she has 1-2 range. Plus she's a Low tier. Florina is Fiora's only competition, which would mean she still gets +1 Con on average. If Florina doesn't exist for some reason, Fiora can still go B Kent/B Sain/C Pent, and get +2 Con. Funds? Eh, you can use your stat boosters without your funds rank dying as long as you don't use anyone overly expensive (lol Dart), and remember that Geitz being in play implies the use of Eliwood, whose Rapier and promotion item alone are worth way more than this. If you're using Dart to support Geitz, lol @ any kind of funds claim. I see no one else who gets as much merit out of a Body Ring as Fiora does, and I see no stat booster that helps Geitz more than everyone else (especially since he joins later than a lot of people). Dorcas in play and supporting Geitz alone raises a question mark seeing as A Oswin/B Bartre is his preferred support. Plus, he is someone who struggles to double in FE7 - the only other person who manages that is Wallace. That's pretty damn awful right there - he may be helpful earlygame, but not being able to double (and therefore one-round) a lot of things late-game is utter failure. Dart isn't going to be used unless you like Iron weapons: he goes over the limit by enough to prevent you from liberally using stat boosters and expensive shit like Prf weapons, Warp staff, etc. That hurts the team by a lot, so he'd have to be good enough on his own to make up for it. Sadly, he isn't. Then you raise the point that Fiora only has flying and that Florina weakens that point. Try using 2 fliers in the game - you'll love it. In fact, you'll hate trying to get HHM Genesis without them, and thus you'll find it hard to S-rank as Genesis has some really sexy requirements (25 turns for tactics, awesome). Double the fliers is double the fun. Genesis itself becomes a lot easier: two high-range units with 1-2 range that work under Kishuna's Seal and hit on Def while having good Res in a Magefest chapter? Yay. Cog of Destiny has 99% magic units, a bunch of status staves and a village with Warp that needs saving. Plus, Fiora doesn't even need Florina in play to have a full support roster at all...in fact, Fiora is a lot more secure in her supports than Geitz is, with one middish unit and one really fucking super expensive one with a set promotion time. Lolbtw, with only 2 thieves and one going down south to pick up the Ocean Seal and a Guiding Ring to steal, who is going to pick up all these other treasures in the sand? That alone is a boost to funds. Wow, did I go overboard? EDIT: also, about flying removing support partners, that's kind of like a move gap between mount and normal unit removing supports (Eliwood and Lowen prepromotion, Eliwood and Hector postpromotion, anyone?). You'll find that when Fiora flies off from her support partners (most of which are mounted), it's often to do something she needs little combat help with, such as saving that village in Crazed Beast for an Elysian Whip. Heh, she and Florina are the only ones who can do that before that brigand destroys it...10k/2 = 5k more to their bank account, as there's no way you're saving it without a flier? I guess so. Flying otherwise is a move/flexibility boost that allows multi-tasking for a small group of supporting units without losing bonuses more often. If Florina and Kent or Pent each go one direction and do something, then need to return to each other, they do that faster than, say, Geitz and Dorcas, who each have 6 movement and take terrain penalties. |
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8:23 PM Nov 24
