FE 8 Tier List

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FE 8 Tier List
Topic Started: Jan 20 2008, 10:36 PM (2,480 Views)
Mekkah	Jan 21 2008, 02:36 PM Post #16
Posts: 667 Group: FEFFer Member #1,400 Joined: July 24, 2007	Quote: The ability to one-round virtually anything in the game for a big portion of it is indeed handy. Also, even though he gains little EXP, he's most definitely getting kills. There's no reason to deprive him of kills. No, people don't get priority for kills. There's no EXP Rank in this game, so there's no reason to give away Seth's share of the kills. If you have to do that, it just means that Seth is even better than his own stats would suggest; he's letting others be at a higher level by not needing kills himself. The first is just easier to measure, but the second is quite a degree better. Even without the EXP rank, it is only logical to give a kill to the person who gains most EXP out of it whenever you have the choice. Why'd I give Seth "his share" when others use it 10 times as well as he does? That's why I'm all for Seth allowing others to be better in the way you described. Problem is, I don't think that makes him the second best unit in the game. If you're going to use the "there's no EXP rank" argument then it's all pointless. If there's no rank, you should go by the "it's always better to kill faster, be cheaper, etc" rule, or it's all pointless. Which it is, really. But fun anyway.



+Ema Skye	Jan 21 2008, 02:38 PM Post #17
Snackoos = <3. It's science! Posts: 20,952 Group: Advisor Member #40 Joined: June 9, 2005	Quote: I don't get the massive Seth hype. Then you don't get Reikken's broken logic. XD
	MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH


Mekkah	Jan 21 2008, 02:41 PM Post #18
Posts: 667 Group: FEFFer Member #1,400 Joined: July 24, 2007	Post it.



Super Saiyan SolidSense	Jan 21 2008, 03:39 PM Post #19
Posts: 896 Group: FEFFer Member #1,311 Joined: June 15, 2007	Quote: That's why I'm all for Seth allowing others to be better in the way you described. Problem is, I don't think that makes him the second best unit in the game. It actually does. Say that using Seth normally is Method X. Using Seth this way is Method Y. If Method Y > Method X, as you say, then Seth must be even better than the stats for Method X suggest. It's two ways of using the same character. One way makes Seth worse but others better--then you not only have to measure the value of Seth himself, but those 4 extra levels that Franz has, or those 4 extra levels that Vanessa has, or all of those little things like that. If this way is truly "better" for your team overall, those little things should add up to more than Seth's value used in the other way. Quote: If you're going to use the "there's no EXP rank" argument then it's all pointless. If there's no rank, you should go by the "it's always better to kill faster, be cheaper, etc" rule, or it's all pointless. No. It's always better to kill faster, yes. Be cheaper, yes. Survive, yes. Those save the player from tedium, and that's what matters here. A character gaining more EXP, however, in of and itself has no value whatsoever. It's intrinsically worthless. EXP Rank is the only real rank that doesn't matter intuitively. I don't even know why the developers included it in FE7/6. It makes absolutely no sense. It makes no more sense than me saying that there's a "High Level Rank," and Seth satisfies that for most of the game.
	this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER


Mekkah	Jan 21 2008, 03:44 PM Post #20
Posts: 667 Group: FEFFer Member #1,400 Joined: July 24, 2007	It is a plus for using Seth. But this same logic would tell me Saleh and Myrrh and shizzle are up there because they aren't using earlygame EXP either but are still very viable later on. Hell, Gerik could draw the same card. But they're pretty damn for "second best units". Gaining more EXP = gaining more stats. That is an advantage similar to Seth giving more levels to others if he's in your team. You can't like one and ditch the other. Two units with 50% growths across the board. One gains 3 EXP per kill, the other 30. The other gains more, so the other taking that EXP improves the team more.



quanta	Jan 21 2008, 04:09 PM Post #21
Posts: 28 Group: FEFFer Member #1,606 Joined: December 23, 2007	Quote: It actually does. Say that using Seth normally is Method X. Using Seth this way is Method Y. If Method Y > Method X, as you say, then Seth must be even better than the stats for Method X suggest. It's two ways of using the same character. One way makes Seth worse but others better--then you not only have to measure the value of Seth himself, but those 4 extra levels that Franz has, or those 4 extra levels that Vanessa has, or all of those little things like that. If this way is truly "better" for your team overall, those little things should add up to more than Seth's value used in the other way. You've gotta be kidding me; that logic can be applied to a totally shitty unit to give them a better tiering. I can use Duessel by Method X (where he fights) or Method Y (where he doesn't) Now, Method Y (not using him) is clearly the better option. Those levels that your other characters gain should clearly add up to more than his Method X worth. Therefore, he's clearly better than his stats would suggest. Hell, the amount of levels he's letting others gain by not being used is roughly in line with Seth. So is Duessel = Seth? Is he even only one tier lower? I don't fucking think so. This logic can be applied to basically any character you don't bother to use. Then suddenly they are "worth" as much as Seth was for vast portions of the game. If you aren't using a character, they aren't worth shit. Are we going to put Duessel in high tier because of how great it is to NOT use him? I don't think so. SolidSense A character gaining more EXP, however, in of and itself has no value whatsoever. It's intrinsically worthless. Maybe not in and of itself, but it happens to raise your stats. Now if the fastest, easiest way to clear the game with Seth was to solo it with him, it might be true that it didn't matter who gains exp. But by midgame and endgame, it's better to have other characters be at higher levels and closer to Seth's level. Considering that early on, you admit it's better for other characters to pick up the exp. since Seth gains jack shit, it seems like all it does is reduce Seth's worth. Seth's base stats are great; Seth's base level isn't so great.



Super Saiyan SolidSense	Jan 21 2008, 04:09 PM Post #22
Posts: 896 Group: FEFFer Member #1,311 Joined: June 15, 2007	Quote: It is a plus for using Seth. But this same logic would tell me Saleh and Myrrh and shizzle are up there because they aren't using earlygame EXP either but are still very viable later on. Hell, Gerik could draw the same card. But they're pretty damn for "second best units". No. Seth's advantage is being able to give BOTH use and higher levels to everyone. If you don't give Seth those kills, he'll still be good. The same is not true of Gerik and Myyrh and Saleh. It's "h4x unit + normal levelled units" or "awesome unit + higher levelled units" and it's the same thing. Quote: Gaining more EXP = gaining more stats. That is an advantage similar to Seth giving more levels to others if he's in your team. You can't like one and ditch the other. Seth starts with 2000 EXP to begin with, when you think about it. And no, gaining less EXP only affects Seth himself, not the team overall. We're already accounting for that by having him gain less levels per kill; there's no other disadvantage. Penalizing someone for being _better_ than your team by having a higher level is totally counterintuitive.
	this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER


Mekkah	Jan 21 2008, 04:38 PM Post #23
Posts: 667 Group: FEFFer Member #1,400 Joined: July 24, 2007	Actually, Seth being "better" does have a negative: he kills enemies, especially bosses, a lot faster than others, depriving others of even more EXP.



smash fanatic	Jan 21 2008, 06:20 PM Post #24
Posts: 114 Group: FEFFer Member #1,404 Joined: July 27, 2007	Quote: He wins earlygame. That doesn't mean much in my eyes, considering the difficulty of that portion of the game. The entire game is easy. "This portion of the game is easy" is not a point. Quote: That's actually not true. Franz is not invincible, while Vanessa is. 100-Hit enemies do indeed exist in this game, in addition to 120-Hit Dracozombies. Dracozombies are few and far between. Quote: Yes, Franz wins offense by more than Vanessa wins defense, and Franz also has an earlygame win, which doesn't matter all that much. Overall, I'm not inclined to say that his leads matter more than flying, given the vast amounts of terrin in this game. The oceans, the bridges, the mountains--this game easily has 3-4 times the terrain that FE7 has, and, unlike FE7's flyers, Vanessa has no weaknesses except for mediocre Str, which is changed to above-average Str thanks to supports. When Vanessa goes flying, she also loses her supports. Quote: Neimi is only beating Ross at anything when he is still a baby. If you're using Ross he should be promoted by Ch5 at last, and from there he is still gaining EXP faster than anyone else including Neimi, and he can actually frontline, especially against lances. He's the least durable of your 1-range guys, and has the 2nd worst offense on the team. Why would I throw him in front of enemies when I could use others? Quote: Neimi is stuck in Sniper mode until promotion, and even after that she cannot switch weapons on enemy phase. It's better than phailing at frontlining. Quote: Even if she could, she can't use Killing Edge yet and about every E/D rank sword is either weak (Iron), too heavy (Steel) or too specialized and rare (Zanbato). Plus she needs to build up 60 more bow attacks to get Nidhogg and +5 Hit/Crt which Ross will get earlier, in addition to Garm. Too heavy? lol. Neimi has enough spd to use it. Quote: Actually, Seth being "better" does have a negative: he kills enemies, especially bosses, a lot faster than others, depriving others of even more EXP. wtf? Having better offense is a BAD thing?



Super Saiyan SolidSense	Jan 21 2008, 07:10 PM Post #25
Posts: 896 Group: FEFFer Member #1,311 Joined: June 15, 2007	Quote: The entire game is easy. "This portion of the game is easy" is not a point. Yes, it is. The whole game can't be compared relative to itself, so it's not easy. Earlygame is ridiculously easy relative to the rest of the game, and yes, that does matter. It's similar to the difference between LHM and EHM. Quote: Dracozombies are few and far between. But they do exist, and so do enemies which can hit Franz and actually do significant damage to him. No, he's not dying, necessarily, but he has to be healed, unlike Vanessa, and that's almost as significant as the offense gap. Quote: When Vanessa goes flying, she also loses her supports. So? Franz doesn't have that option, and Vanessa does. She can't do both at the same time, but he can't do the latter. Also, restricting team size further and further increases Vanessa's stats further and further, but you can never make Franz fly--he loses mobility by even more after prmotion, in fact.
	this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER


Blackbird	Jan 21 2008, 07:15 PM Post #26
Posts: 181 Group: FEFFer Member #1,584 Joined: December 10, 2007	The problem is that Seth gains about as much exp for hitting things early on as he does for killing them, whereas the rest of your units have a much more significant gap in exp between a hit and a kill. If Seth kills something, you deprive your other, underleveled units (anybody who is not Seth, at this point) of the opportunity to kill that unit for several times as much exp. The exp increase in itself is "meaningless" but gaining several more levels (and levels of stats) for the same number of kills isn't. Leveling your whole, underleveled team much faster is better than leveling just Seth faster. That said, there is little harm in using Seth to simply weaken tough enemies and have other units finish them off, because Seth's "hit" exp does not lag behind as much. This is pretty straightforward to do... just give him slim weapons to decrease his hitting power a bit early on.



+Ema Skye	Jan 21 2008, 07:30 PM Post #27
Snackoos = <3. It's science! Posts: 20,952 Group: Advisor Member #40 Joined: June 9, 2005	Blackbird Jan 21 2008, 07:15 PM The problem is that Seth gains about as much exp for hitting things early on as he does for killing them, whereas the rest of your units have a much more significant gap in exp between a hit and a kill. If Seth kills something, you deprive your other, underleveled units (anybody who is not Seth, at this point) of the opportunity to kill that unit for several times as much exp. The exp increase in itself is "meaningless" but gaining several more levels (and levels of stats) for the same number of kills isn't. Leveling your whole, underleveled team much faster is better than leveling just Seth faster. That said, there is little harm in using Seth to simply weaken tough enemies and have other units finish them off, because Seth's "hit" exp does not lag behind as much. This is pretty straightforward to do... just give him slim weapons to decrease his hitting power a bit early on. No, not slim weapons. Do better so he can't even double or have Crit. Rescue a shit unit like Neimi or Ross and then he's fine.
	MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH


Super Saiyan SolidSense	Jan 21 2008, 08:11 PM Post #28
Posts: 896 Group: FEFFer Member #1,311 Joined: June 15, 2007	Quote: If Seth kills something, you deprive your other, underleveled units (anybody who is not Seth, at this point) of the opportunity to kill that unit for several times as much exp. The exp increase in itself is "meaningless" but gaining several more levels (and levels of stats) for the same number of kills isn't. That's a logical fallacy. Those just concern two different ways of using Seth; one way gives everyone else more EXP. The other way does not.
	this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER


smash fanatic	Jan 22 2008, 01:41 AM Post #29
Posts: 114 Group: FEFFer Member #1,404 Joined: July 27, 2007	Quote: Yes, it is. The whole game can't be compared relative to itself, so it's not easy. Says who? Quote: Earlygame is ridiculously easy relative to the rest of the game, and yes, that does matter. It's similar to the difference between LHM and EHM. And how exactly do you determine difficulty? Quote: But they do exist, and so do enemies which can hit Franz and actually do significant damage to him. No, he's not dying, necessarily, but he has to be healed, unlike Vanessa, and that's almost as significant as the offense gap. You should be fielding at least one person who can use staves. Chances are, each unit on the field can be healed at least once with no drawback to the rest of the team, so if only one or two guys are posing a major threat to Franz, having to heal Franz once or twice over the course of the cahpter is no big deal. By the way, Franz wins durability for earlygame and most of midgame, before Vanessa gets her supports. Extra weapon in the triangle and can use terrain, and no bow weakness. This is also during a time when neither are invulnerable. That's certainly worth more than Vanessa winning durability lategame when neither have major issues. Quote: So? Franz doesn't have that option, and Vanessa does. She can't do both at the same time, but he can't do the latter. It lessens the worth of the lead. Quote: Also, restricting team size further and further increases Vanessa's stats further and further, but you can never make Franz fly--he loses mobility by even more after prmotion, in fact. And I'd rather be working with a decent size team than having less people, like what you're implying. If I have to use 8 or so people just so Vanessa's bad str doesn't hamper me, that's a bad thing. Shrinking team size also doesn't do anything for earlygame and only has a small effect on midgame.



Former Guest	Jan 22 2008, 12:56 PM Post #30
Posts: 88 Group: FEFFer Member #1,469 Joined: September 18, 2007	Seth for top of top tier is more than reasonable to me because if you just use him like a regular team player and not have him gallop into enemy crowds solo, he's your best unit by a fuckton for the early chapters before you have to choose routes, and his bases/growths ensure he remains at least solid and among your finest for the entire game. No other character finds themselves in such a lofty position, though Duessel is a must-have on the hard mode phantom ship before anyone else. The only way I could see Seth being argued even slightly down from MVP is his lack of 100% weapon triangle control without lancereaver later on, but that weapon isn't in particularly high demand and you can easily indulge him there since he's been cheaper than your units who have to promote.



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