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First of all, lol @ this. Simon lost it before Reikken's omglogic was introduced to make Seth and Titania top of top tier in their games. I feel pretty gay using a banned unit.

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lol @ this. How Moulder ever recovers is totally beyond me. He can't see combat to gain moar EXP and locked to lower level staves for a while. Then, higher level staves are massively expensive and he competes with Natasha for those.

And it's not just Seth's stats that are pwning Moulder.

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Moulder is the single worst unit in the game on the enemy phase when he's around.

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"but he gets less EXP so everyone else gets more kills and he doesnt get to do much"

That's fine. It's only a larger advantage for him. He has a gigantic level and lets others get kills. Check this out:

Vanessa gets 200 kills and reaches 20/5
Franz gets 200 kills and reaches 20/5

vs

Franz gets 300 kills and reaches 20/10
Seth gets 100 kills and reaches 20/10

Obviously the situation where Seth is being used is far better since you have much stronger units. EXP gained is only reflected in how good the units are since there's no Experience rank to worry about here.

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First of all, keep in mind that Seth has been crushing Moulder for over 10 chapters. Moulder's only hope of winning now is to crush Seth back.

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So, after Seth was thrashing Moulder in stats in every area for a long time, we come to Moulder's promotion point around the middle of the midgame, I guess. Let's go on Ephraim's route, where Seth loses Eirik, to give Moulder the best possible chances of being better. On Eirik's route, where he gets a B support and gets to benefit the team by supporting another, Seth's wins are even larger. Logic would say that if he beats Moulder on Ephraim's route, he'd win by even more on Eirik's.

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wooooh lots of stats

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Seth
Offense: 20 Atk, 45.65 Hit, 14.7 Atk Spd, 14.85 Crit
Defense: 35.4 HP, 16.4 Def, 12.8 Res, 50.9 Evd, 21.5 Crit Evd

Moulder
Offense: 14.8 Atk, 33.8 Hit, 15.8 Atk Spd, 14.25 Crit
Defense: 35.9 HP, 14.2 Def, 17.2 Res, 61 Evd, 29.4 Crit Evd

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1. Seth has access to a large arsenal of weapons, namely Silvers, Killers, and Slayers to give him huge offense against anything, while Moulder does not. Seth has has far more WT control. His arsenal increases his offensive leads dramatically.

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2. Seth has a lot more mobility from 2 more MOV and move-again from everything but attacking. This allows him more flexibility and easier access to enemies, villages, other units, etc. when you play.

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3. Vanessa likes to fly away, so Moulder's B Vanessa will disapoof half of the time, meaning he loses 2 Atk, 2 Def/Res, and 10 Evd, which turns the debatable defensive area into Seth's clear win.

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4. This is Ephraim's route where Seth is minus 2 Atk, 5 Crit, 2 Def/Res, and 5 Evd. If this were Eirik's route, which we'll assume is played half of the time, Seth would not only have that B support, but he'd be benefitting another unit at the same time. Even while Vanessa is near Moulder, Seth would win anyways in everything.

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5. In order to get to this point, Moulder consumed 10 more levels of EXP than Seth did and had to use a promotional item. Seth consumed far less in EXP and funds, especially since he only used iron weapons until now.

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By the lategame, Moulder would have diminished the level lead a bit, but Seth would have his B Eirik back to cancel that out. Seth also has better growths by a lot ftw.

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So, it looks like Seth clearly wins even when Moulder is given the best possible situation. Should you go Ephraim's route, Seth can nab B Garcia instead and never lose out on a support anyways. How can Moulder ever recover from Seth's massive earlygame w1n and lategame pwn? Answer: He can't.

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I'm sorry, you missed psychology class. If I can argue Moulder beats Seth, would that ban Moulder or unban Seth? You know what I think on this anyway.

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You act as if being a fighter is better than being a healer. Are you forgetting that Moulder is your only healer at this point, and your only healer for a superlong time unless you use Natasha? I have a ton of units that can fight. And despite Seth having better stats than all of them, it is preferable to let them fight, because they gain more EXP (both because Seth has a higher (worse) level and because Seth is one-rounding). So Seth's stats are looking good, but in reality he doesn't do anything, since the early game is super easy and you never need the Paladin. I have no reason to use him, but I have plenty of reasons to not use him.

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Also, Moulder is better than Natasha for all it matters (though this isn't Moulder vs Natasha) and he's the only other guy who can heal people, and healing is important. Without healing, you have to stick to vulneraries or stick on forts forever or something. I don't see not using Seth forcing you to do something ridiculous like that.

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Check this.

Franz attacks Soldier and kills, but gets hit for 7/21 damage in return.
Franz has 14 HP.

Moulder heals Franz -> Franz has 21 HP.
Seth is there instead of Franz -> Franz has 14 HP.

Did Moulder just make Franz stronger by 7 HP? Indeed! He makes other people more durable on enemy phase. That's a lot more awesome than having another durable unit, because Moulder can increase the durability of anyone, whereas Seth has only his own durability. Never mind that Seth's durability lead over everyone will fade away, while Moulder will still be making everyone else more durable.

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Lol at merely posting evade growth, especially that of others. Seth's relative avoid growth early on is kind of 0, essentially, since he's not leveling at all.

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Moulder is much more of a team player than Seth.

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Let's put Moulder in Seth's place. What's that? Moulder does not need kills (what's Franz doing in my debate? nice try)

Moulder gets 0 kills and reaches 20/1
Whoever gets 400 kills and reaches 20/13

Moulder wins that shit easily. It's probably more realistic to do

Moulder gets 0 kills and reaches 20/1
Franz gets 200 kills and reaches 20/5
Vanessa gets 200 kills and reaches 20/5

So Moulder over Seth gives you a huge package of extra EXP, even moreso than Seth, gives you more stat improvement, gives your entire team more durability AND allows you to use an extra unit and have the same levels than as if you used a smaller team. Seth's Jeigan savings need to be really back to make up for that...but they are virtually nonexistant. Enemies aren't abundant enough to warrant some God saving everyone. Many of them don't even attack until you're in range. Not only does that make Seth's stat lead more and more useless, it also makes it easier for Moulder to stay out of range.

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No, Moulder has been crushing Seth. Seth has to make up for it massively, especially since Moulder is now promoting and gaining attacking, and soon gains more and more stave utility, as well as promotion bonuses.

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Pretend to be generous all you want. Even taking Eirika route into account, a winrar is Moulder.

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Note how Moulder is now winning HP, evade, res, AS and lol crt evade. Seth already has stats to argue...now, can he take THESE important points?

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1) PERMANENT 1-2 range. Moulder wins against everything ranged on enemy phase by default, because Seth doesn't counter or sacrifices uses, cost, accuracy and power to use a Javelin.

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2) Moulder is hitting on resistance, which is lower than defense. Except against magic units, but Moulder was already winning those. Oh, and Pegasi, which are fail either way, and half of the pegasi in the game are in the desert chapter which Seth fails in, and the other half only exist on Ephraim Route which is taken half the time. There's some on Eirika route in Ch10 but Moulder isn't promoted yet and Seth is still too overleveled, so fuck those.

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3) Moulder's team is higher leveled/bigger because he saves even more EXP than Seth. I either have an extra unit, or each of them is stronger.

4) Moulder's team's durability is being increased every turn you are facing enemies. This doesn't only mean people are getting healed when hurt, but also stuff like Barrier helping sucky Res people to take on Mages better.

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All of those are limited - Killers can only be bought in Ch17, and Silvers in 19. Before that, Seth is sharing them with a lot of people, so him using them is taking away offense from others. Moulder, meanwhile, gets fancier staves, and practically nobody else wants/needs Elfire and Shine, which he can use without Spd loss. Or even if you do, you can buy them sooner than those melee weapons.

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Move again is important in a GBA FE? I don't think so, sir. "Everything but attacking" sounds big until you realize most of the time you will indeed be attacking. For raw movement, the lead is only 2, and then Moulder's better 2-range effectively makes that one a lot of the time, plus a lot of other melee units now have a space to attack the same enemy from if needed (support partners anyone?). When there's forests and such in the way, Seth's move lead is gone, and when you want to attack over walls or water or whatever, Moulder is even more flexible. And soon enough Moulder gains Rescue and Warp to increase the mobility of your other units by a massive amount. At this point there's hardly any villages to save anyway.

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Moulder the team player.

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Vanessa flies in and out when the player wants that so. Mid and late game, there is less need for Vanessa to fly away, and when she does Moulder can just stay out of enemy range and use Physic or even something random like Bolting. And if the bonuses are needed, Vanessa can return to Moulder quickly, which helps if you are splitting up your group for some reason. Franz and Eirika are forced to tag along with Seth, because if they are seperated they take longer to get back together again due to terrain penalties (remember, Franz and Moulder have the same move now).

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He'd have to be roughly 2-3 times as good as combat as Moulder is to compensate for the durability and EXP advantages Moulder gives the team, lol. Even with that B support he has trouble being 100% better due to Res-hitting and 1-2 range alone.

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Moulder consumed 17 levels of healing. Seth consumed 6 levels of fighting. Moreover, Seth's gains are a lot smaller for the earlygame and still smaller until everyone is promoted. The ratio is roughly 1:10 early on, and could probably be averaged overall as 1:6 or 1:7 taking the whole earlygame into account, and I think that's being generous. So for each of Seth's levels, I could distribute 6 or 7 over others. Since he's L7 but you mentioned some arena use (which detracts from other people using the same arena btw), that comes down to what, over 30 levels for others? Lol. Seth's been consuming more. I don't even agree with putting Seth at L7 but I don't care for bitching about it since he is still losing.

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For funds, sure, but if Seth wants to use Silvers and shit like you suggested, that lead is small. I'm aware it's better to be cheaper, but it's not like Moulder is robbing your bank account like FE7 Dart or even Lyn or something.

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Moulder catches up to Seth with his class EXP bonus alone, but on top of that he can both fight and use staves to be back on top in no time. If there's one enemy unit in range, all Seth can do is attack it. Moulder can attack, or he can heal for EXP while someone else attacks. On top of that, he can use high-end staves like Hammerne, Warp, Rescue, Sleep, Berserk, if not to utility then just for the sake of gaining EXP, so he will actually be gaining a level lead on Seth.

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Yes, because Garcia is a bog standard unit I guess. ~_~ Sure, feel free to take him into account. You need more than supports and stats to win this one.

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It would make me consider unbanning Seth.

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It is better than being a healer. You can't beat the game by healing. Moulder can heal and heal and heal and it won't finish chapters. Other units can either not be put in situations where they need to be healed, or they can use items to heal. There are substitutes for healing and ways to finish the game without healing. There is subsitute for healing. Fighting is far more necessary, so what Seth provides to the team is better. In fact, he's fighter that doesn't need Moulder ever. By the time Seth's taking damage enough to need healing, you have people like Lute and Artur promoted.

lol @ reasons not to use Seth

Those would be what? Because the game is easy?

"There's no need for Moulder to heal anyone because the game is too easy and you never nead to. There's no need to raise your lower level units because the game is so easy that Seth can solo it."

Also, Seth can't one-round if you rescue a worthless unit or a unit you're not using.

I hope the rest of your post is better than this.

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Prove it. Why not add Natasha to the team? Why not replace Moulder with her? Moulder is your only healer for a brief period of time, and it's a period of time where items still heal a huge chunk of HP and while Seth is still a God amongst puny mortals.

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Ah, this is a bit better now.

Moulder approached the front lines to do this, obviously. Franz attacked the soldier first, and then got healed by Moulder. This means Moulder's in reach of enemies, and his bottom tier durability and lack of countered will now hurt your team. Adding another fighter, especially a durable one like Seth, adds to your team's durability by adding to the amount of units taking hits. If Seth is standing next to Franz, he blocks a space enemies can attack from, and Franz's durability is thus increased.

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Who cares if it's 0? And it's really not, anyways. He'll gain +5 very early from his supports. Also, his Evd is way higher than everyone else's, so his growth can be 0 and he's still got high Evd.

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Why's that? I'm not seeing it. That's the same garbage arguement that Simon and WJC used, and while it worked decently for WJC at the time, it's not going to work anymore. Seth's a beast, can move around a lot, can tank easily, rescue, support, etc. Not a team player, huh? Paladins raep at being team players. He's only not a team player if you solo with him. Seth can exist without healing, level up without healing, be durable without healing, and finish the game without healing. If fighters weren't around for Moulder to heal, then he'd be unable to even level up.

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That's an interesting concept, but it's actually not realistic. Adding Moulder to the team won't allow that unit to get the 400 kills since Moulder can't stay near it healing all the time. He'll be near the frontlines, and then he becomes hog shit. A unit that you have be careful with isn't as awesome as a unit you can do anything you want with. Seth can do whatever he wants in this game. He's Rick Astley. Moulder is the black guy serving drinks.

And "Moulder over Seth does blah blah blah" is not a valid arguement since they don't pull from the same EXP pool. My entire point was to crush the "using Seth hurts your team's level" logic, which I indeed successfully did. It had nothing to do with Moulder being better for EXP and overall team level. Sure, he's better for EXP, but there's no Experience rank, so EXP is only reflected in your power, and Seth being used makes that power higher.

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Roflmao. Yes, being the worst unit possible on the enemy phase and having way lower stats in every area sure is "crushing" Seth.

That's fine. Seth still has a large arsenal of weapons and huge mobility to counter healing.

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Eirik Route: +2 Atk, +2 Def/Res +5 Hit, +5 Evd, +5 Crit, +5 Crit Evd

All wins are narrowed. Seth now crushes in Atk by even more, and wins by more in Def and Crit.

Eirik Route + Vanessa flying off = no contest. Ephraim Route + Vanessa flying off = Seth wins.

Seth is winning almost all the time. That was Moulder's best case scenerio and Seth's worst case scenerio, and it's still debatable. Anything else isn't.

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And, at this point, still one-rounds with that Javelin as long as it's not a promoted unit, which Moulder won't one-round regardless.

Also:

Javelin cost per use: 20
Thunder cost per use: 20
Elfire cost per use: 40

Moulder's not cheaper even when Seth deviates from Iron.

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With Eirik, Seth has ~7 moar Atk. When Vanessa is off making use of her flying utility, Moulder has -2 Atk. Unless the Def/Res gap is larger than that, Seth's guaranteed to do more damage. And then Seth has access to weapons that have significantly more Mt than what Moulder has to use. On top of that, he has Slayers and Killers. How does Moulder compete in Atk? He has no Heavy Spear for Armours, Horseslayer for mounted units, Killers for giant Crit, or anything like that. Seth not costing you anything to promote, and his ability to spam Irons for long allows him to still cost the less or the same as other units while using these pwn weapons. Against all axe and sword users, Seth even gets +1 Atk, +15 Hit, +15 Evd, and +1 Def. Moulder can't do this except against the less common magic users, which Seth wins massively in offense against. He can just OHKO those with a Silver Lance, which he even comes with anyways.

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Already disproven.

We're not arguing who helps the team moar by disapoofing. It's who's better when you play the game, and that's clearly Seth.

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Seth starts with a Silver, and you get those other weapons as the game progresses through Colm's thieving, recruiting units, and enemies dropping them.

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Oh, as for cost/limited arguements:

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No, it's not "effectively 1 MOV" since Seth has 1~2 range as well and can use it without phailing. And, it's not like Moulder is actually moving to that spot. Seth can. If there's a Mage 8 spaces away? Moulder can't reach it, and Seth can ride up and OHKO it. If it's 7 spaces away? Moulder can attack it and kill in two hits, but Seth can still do the same thing, which involves costing less and not taking a counter.

Even if you call it "1 MOV," Seth's still a lot more mobility, and more flexibility due to winning base durability by a gigantic amount. Franz can run away and he's chill. Vanessa flies away, and Moulder's already in big trouble.

On the enemy phase, it's always a 2 MOV gap since Seth can be places Moulder can't be for blockading and whatnot. Also, it lets you end your phase farther away, so you can advance more. It'll become a 2 space lead, then 4, then 6, etc.

Rescue and Warp? Low-usage staves that cost a lot? Seth was already pwning Moulder in cost, and now it'll be even bigger.

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Moulder the money-gobbling unit that delays the promotion of another magic user and forces units to stay near him or else he'll die.

Yeah, real team player there.

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Yes, she does, but she has tons more mobility than Moulder and isn't dependant on him to survive, so she likes to fly off and kill something. If the choice is to fly off and do something or just stay near the Moulder, the former is obviously better, but Moulder's piss-poor supportless durability stops her from doing this. That's obviously a negative.

On Ephraim's Route, Seth doesn't even have to worry about this because both he and Franz have pwnage stats and frontline easily.

Franz and Moulder have the same MOV only if Franz is a GK, which is not a gaurantee. Even then, Franz has more flexibility to move around safely, so his mobility is still higher anyways.

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lol, disproven

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That 17 levels of healing could have gone to Natasha, and you've yet to provide any arguements saying Natasha is worse than Moulder. Also, part of those levels could go to a promoted Lute or Artur.

Other people suck in the arena. Haven't you ever used that Chapter 5 arena? Other units have harder matches that yield less EXP for some reason, while Seth gets huge EXP and easy matches. It's awesome for Seth and bad for others unless you sit there a lot. Plus, you want the others getting the kills in the actual level instead of Seth, right? Then let them do that while Seth levels in EXP and gets your team even more money, lol. Pwnage.

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His promotional item alone accounts for almost all of the Killers/Silvers that Seth will ever end up using.

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Level lead?

Saying "EXP boost and staves" isn't going to prove that when Seth started with a 17 level lead initially and gets to see more combat later due to better mobility, offense, and defense.

Moulder gaining a lead on Seth is absurd. You and I both know damn well that only Seth and Duecel will realisticaly get to 20/20, so what you're saying implies that Moulder could get even higher. Moulder being the only healer and nearly soloing maps ftw???

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Kk.

If you're going Eirik route, he gets +2 Atk, +5 Hit, +5 Crit, +10 Evd, +1 Def/Res, +5 Crit Evd added onto the initial comparison. Omg, pwn. Now he's winning everything but Res, lol.

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Nice job addressing the point made: you have an endless supply of fighters. You have NO other healer now, you will have ONE alternative for the rest of the earlygame, and about 2-3 more for mid and endgame. All of these fighters are a reason to not use Seth: they can replace him. Nearly nobody can replace this function done by Moulder.

Did you seriously try to play the "healing won't complete chapters" card on me? This debate is long enough as it is without you throwing long-ago-nixed points at Moulder. Indeed, early on you can use vulneraries instead of Moulder. That is FAR less efficient though.

Durability:
Heal: 30 uses
Vulnerary: 3 uses

Cost (for all you like to post about that, might as well address this):
Heal: 20G per use
Vulnerary: 100G per use

Power:
Heal: 10 + Moulder's Magic
Vulnerary: 10

Space:
Heal: Only one of your units has to carry a Heal staff
Vulnerary: Every unit that ever wants to be healed needs to get his/her hands on a Vulnerary (takes up an item slot as well)

Alternatives:
Heal: Mend (still more useful), and then some rarer staves such as Recover and Fortify
Vulnerary: Elixir with 1000G per use and being rare as fuck with the same problems as above

Plus, a unit actually has to waste a turn using the vulnerary, decreasing your offense. If Moulder heals that unit, no problemo.

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For Seth rescuing to weaken his offense, he still has a shot at critting, and he will still lessen the amount of EXP gained since other units still gain three times as much from weakening. Plus, this may work for chapters 2 and 3 when units you aren't using are forced on the field, but from 4 and on I don't think I'd want to field a unit just so that Seth can rescue that unit.

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"being a God" and "being a Healer" aren't even the same comparable functions. Seth is a fighter.

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Either way, even if this was a good argument, Moulder > Natasha, quite easily. When Natasha joins:

5 Moulder
5 Mag - 21.0 avo, 21.4 hp, 2.5 def, 5.5 res, 1.4 critavo

1 Natasha
2 Mag - 22.0 avo, 18.0 hp, 2.0 def, 6.0 res, 6.0 critavo

1 avo, 0.5 Res and 4.5 critavo. That's it. The reason to use Natasha. Against that, we have
- better support affinity
- already building up supports
- better support partners
- 3 magic (at a point 3 points can still make a difference when healing)
- 3.4 HP and 0.5 Def for all it's worth
- sooner promotion (which means sooner promotion bonuses, sooner gaining the ability to attack)

Natasha can't even close the level gap because they both gain equal EXP. So if Moulder is owning his only possible replacement in every single regard, while you can point out a lot of units that own Seth in mid and lategame, that makes you look pretty silly for bringing up "why not replace Moulder with Natasha".

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So, because a healer approaches the frontlines to heal, they can't heal or don't increase durability at all? Alright Serra, Priscilla and Clarine, back to bottom tier you go!

Moulder doesn't have to be in reach of enemies at all to heal. They come in small numbers, and early on very few of them attack ranged. Note that Franz killed the soldier too, so there'd have to be another enemy in there for Moulder to be in danger. A lot of the time you can heal, then advance with others so any kind of fray is away from Moulder's spot at the end of player phase.

For Seth standing next to Franz, if anything it makes Franz more likely to get targetted by anything that can reach him because enemies don't want to touch Seth. Or it gets Seth targetted instead of Franz and he reduces the efficiency of gaining EXP. Neither is desirable.

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It's more than 0, but not a lot moreso. If he fights as much as everyone else does, his natural growth of 115% divided by the 6-7 times of how much everyone else gains from the same enemy, it's more like 17%. That still isn't much at all.

Anyway, bickering just about evade growth isn't good, it's why we use averages. I can counter by saying "well, Moulder gains more evade from supports" or "Moulder still has a promotion bonus to look forward to", so in the end just look at the averages.

20/1 Moulder. A Gilliam/B Vanessa: 61 avo, 100% growth
20/6 Seth.... A Franz/B Eirika: 54.9 avo, 115% growth

Now Moulder is gaining EXP at a faster rate due to lower level, and he gains EXP about every single turn as opposed to only when there's fighting and Seth gets to bash some enemy's skull in instead of someone else. So in reality, after Moulder promotes, Seth isn't really going to win evade ever anymore.

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Moulder's a beast, can move around with average pace but still move around, makes others tank, can't rescue but that's ass, support, etc. I'm not saying Seth isn't a team player. Moulder is just moreso. Stronger team, lots of stave utility, that owns "fighting moving and uuuh rescuing".

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Moulder is one of these guys who bang the bitches Rick Astley dances with, but behind the scenes. Seth is the fencejumpnigger.

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"Moulder over Seth blah blah" as you call it is valid. As far as I'm concerned, when you debate about two units, you are debating whether it's better to add one or the other to your team. Using one means not using the other. Or you could go by adding both to a hypothetical team and looking at what they both add, but that comes down to the same as what I did.

Sure, Seth does not hurt your team's level moreso than, say, Franz does if he gets equally as much or less kills than said other unit. It's just that Moulder does that to an even better extent: he BOOSTS your team's level no matter what, and you did not counter that at all.

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Not going to repeat everything I said or that I'm going to say here. Suffice it to say this paragraph has nothing new, or nothing that won't be countered later.

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Even on "no contest mode" Moulder can make a case for himself thanks to all the next points named and the stronger team in general. Sure, I'll conceed that he's being crushed on his own stats, but that doesn't make all his other wins vanish.

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That Javelin makes Seth blow a bit of monkey dick against anything with a Hand Axe, and hurts his accuracy in general. Morover, Javelins only have 20 uses, so you'll have to replace them a lot or run around with low uses on them, and you should know how gay it is to only have 1 use left on a weapon.

Moulder can also switch to a more accurate and cheap Fire tome for a weak enemy on a forest or something, which Seth will have trouble hitting then.

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Uh, I could just go "if you're on Ephraim route without Garcia in play, Seth has ~5 more Atk" etc. Anyway, there's wyverns with a Def/Res gap that big, for one. Then, Seth lowers his efficiency against a lot of other crap on enemy phase when using something like a Slayer, and hurts the team's offense by stealing a Killer or something similar over just Iron. We'll come back to that when you're hyping weapon costs.

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No, not at all. In fact, if Seth helps more by disapoofing, it's Moulder that wins, lol. Anyway, no need to repeat things.

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Just because Seth comes with a Silver does not entitle him to using it. I don't have to use, fight, or even move with Seth to have his Silver Lance available. For that, all I'd have to do is to recruit him, but that's done automatically, so nobody gets any dibs on it.

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Neither is he alone entitled to using these others, as limited as they are. You get 1 Silver Lance, 2 Killer Lances, 2 Silver Swords and 2 Killing Edges for the entire early and midgame, and Seth is sharing them with everyone who shares the weapon type.

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For cost, lol. If you're going to raise that there's no EXP rank, I may as well raise there's no funds rank. There is no reason to let a weapon rot in your inventory. The only way weapon cost is reflected in actual gameplay on weapons you do not buy is when you plan to sell them otherwise. And you have gold coming out of your ears in this game, especially with no reason not to sell gems, so that is a very small point right there.

What's important is how many of a limited weapon you have, and how many others do want it. Moulder is sharing any freebie tomes with one or two potential others, and sharing high level staves with likely nobody in your team unless you decide to use both him and Natasha. Weapons like Wyrmslayer and Heavy Spear don't grow on the trees: they have low amounts of uses and you usually only get one or two at most, and nearly anyone who can weild them may want to use them.

Cost per use is never really important unless the gap is really big. As it is, you will have a big fat wallet to buy basic or slightly advanced weapons for everyone, this argument enhanced by the Silver Card in Ch15.

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Seth's 1-2 range does indeed fail lategame. Before that, Moulder wins at attacking at 2-range, mostly due to having more reliable accuracy. As far as charging ahead goes, that robs Garcia/Eirika of their bonuses and effectively lowers their usefulness. Moulder doesn't have to be in enemy range at all to be useful - in fact, healing and general stave use are totally unaffected by whether supports are near. When he gets access to Physic, he has wtfmassive flexibility as he can go anywhere and still heal.

On enemy phase, you are not moving, period. On enemy phase, Moulder's permanent 1-2 range comes into play more, as Seth is forced to hold a lame Javelin while Moulder is always chill.

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Oh, a new point, Moulder using a Guiding Ring. I believe we agreed people promoted on around ~Ch14, amirite? You get 3 Guiding Rings up to that point. One from Ch5 end of chapter, one in 10 Eirika/12 Ephraim, and one in 14 both routes. So even if all of Moulder, Lute and Arthur are in play (lol, like that's gonna happen often), the damage is extremely minimal. Plus, if nothing else, Moulder can just delay his own promotion a little bit and still be useful through healing while Lute/Arthur promote and continue to gain EXP.

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Vanessa likes some of those Moulder bonuses to survive before promotion (when she gains +3 AS and finishes her supports). I'd definitely prefer someone other than Vanessa to do her job if possible. This also allows Lute to keep the bonuses intact for longer.

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Both Franz and Seth get much worse terrain penalties than Moulder does, coming to a climax in the desert where Franz can hardly go anywhere at all so he and Seth are forced to stay out of the sand. And yes, Franz as a Great Knight is the standard. Axes and 2 move are about on par, and then better promotion bonuses and caps finish off any reason to go Paladin. Even if he goes Paladin, he has these terrain issues.

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Feel free to prove why Seth gets more EXP, because I can freely claim the opposite. I can throw in Joshua and he'll do quite fine from my experience. Also, using the arena for more than 1-2 fights REQUIRES a healer. I guess that unless you want to waste levels on Natasha, even Seth wants some Moulder in there. Plus, if Seth wants to arena while everyone else wraps up the chapter, the rest of your units will be without a healer.

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The only way that ever works is Seth getting 5000G on "his account" for when you can actually buy these, because otherwise it holds very little significance as I explained.

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He only really starts seeing combat after the difference between Seth and other fighters is significantly smaller.

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20/20 with no abuse but a few turns of arena? On anyone? On Duessel? Lol. For that to happen, assuming Seth is L6 at Ch14, he'd have to gain like 2 levels every chapter. At the same time, Moulder has to gain about 2.7, but he is gaining some extra EXP from the same amount of combat, and then a lot more due to staves (using up Warp alone gives him 425 EXP). Early healers are the most likely to hit 20/20 out of anyone. Not fucking Duessel, that guy doesn't even know what doubling is.

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Yeah, note how lenient I was when sarcastically approving of assuming Garcia is always in play when you go Ephraim route (Eirika route gives Seth an Eirika support...iono what you're babbling here).

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Who cares? There's substitutes for healing. Moulder's monopoly on healing ends quickly, and healing's not even needed. They can replace Seth...with half his stats, and then require more EXP to be good later.

Yup, healing is way better than using items. That was not my arguement at all, though.

Fighting = 100% required to finish the game at all.
Healing = not required at all to finish the game at all.

What Seth does as a fighter is necessary to complete the game, while what Moulder does before promotion just makes completing the game easier.

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Enemies have less than 3 LUK? Seth will only have 3 Crit when he rescues someone.

It lessens the amount of EXP gained by a very small amount, while allowing you to use Seth without stealing kill EXP from anyone else. Other units, due to being weak, are put in danger if you use them for both weakening and killing a lot, and sometimes it takes three rounds to kill something. Seth increases efficiency a lot with this without taking kill EXP.

Well, if you have the extra slot, which you very well should, you can field a unit for Seth to rescue without it mattering at all, so okay.

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If our units were not comparable, how could we be having this debate at all?

Answer: They are indeed comparable, including their functions.

Seth's an unstoppable God that can't die and kill any enemy he chooses to. He has utility to move around a lot, tank, slay things, etc. Moulder can only heal, which is a function of convenience and not vital. You can compare their worth.

God > healer.

Moulder's use on the enemy phase = 0.

That's horrible. That's already literally half of the early game that Seth is better by default, and then Moulder has to try to be better with healing on the player phase versus Seth's God status.

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Yes, you pointed out some pretty numbers. Go you.

However, the only one that truly matters is the Mag.

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Since either healer getting attacked is a huge detriment to efficiency and both have horrendous durability at this point, their other stats don't matter.

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Natasha is indeed inferior to Moulder, however, her mere existance nullifies his "omg only healer" positive. He can no longer claim to be performing some sort of Moulder-only, god tier function that your team supposedly masturbates to.

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Nah, not bottom tier, but their utility as only healers is indeed limited. Their movement is restricted since they must avoid enemy attack ranges, and them getting attacked at all is horrible. I don't care about those units right now, anyways.

"A lot of the time" is not all the time. If Moulder is healing people, he's near some level of combat by default since it was combat that reduced the other unit's HP. Moulder having restricted movement not only because it's low compared to Seth and other mounts, but having to stay out of all enemy attack ranges, is a big disadvantage.

"Efficiency of gaining EXP" would matter if there was an EXP rank, but there isn't, so the only thing you can argue is that Seth getting a few kills somehow harms the team a lot, which it really doesn't.

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Seth was given his worst set-up for Evd, and Moulder his best, and he barely wins.

Stuffz to consider:
- One of Moulder's supports is a flier, so she's not always around.
- Seth can have B Garcia instead for +5 more Evd than what's shown.
- Supports in general are not in play every turn, and Seth wins by a lot when they're not.

Seth will win Evd against anything he can get WTA against, which is every non-archer melee unit in the game(hi lancereaver).

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Moulder's not a beast at all. He 100% requires other units to be near him at absolutely all times in order for his durability to not fall into worst-on-the-team level, and his offense often suffers the same fate. That is not beastly at all.

Moving around a lot >>> average pace.

Being able to rescue decently > not being able to.

Seth being able to stay with his supporters a lot better > Moulder losing one a lot since she disapoofs to make use of her flying pwnage.

Stronger team? Huh? Assuming both units are used on seperate playthroughs, you have higher level units in general with the Moulder team, but your minus Seth's own power and supports on that team, so it's not stronger. Seth is still part of this team stuff.

I thought you said this was a counter to what I said?

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No. Moulder can't do whatever he wants, so he can't possibly be Rick Astley. He must hide behind shields and stay near support partners in order to not die. Seth does whatever he wants for almost the entire game.

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Who makes those standards? Last I checked, I am the head debate judge at FEFF, FEP, and FES. If anyone has the authority to make standards, it would be me, and I'd usually get Solid's opinion on it now like I used to with WJC when he was around more. If anyone has the right to declare what you're truly debating, it would be me, however, I don't really do that besides basic rules. Saying the point is to prove which team benefits more in the absense of the other is pretty silly, imo.

No, Moulder doesn't boost your team's level at all. The only level he's boosting is his own. He's not taking combat EXP from the team, but he's also not somehow creating more of it. Maybe if your logic is to use 5 fighters + 1 healer over 6 fighters with no healer, but then you just have a larger combat team to make up for the small difference in level, and then your teams overall power is no different. If one of those fighters is Seth, however, he has a giant level regardless and the others also get to have a larger level since Seth took far less kills than what another fighter would have required.

Actually, if we're going by what you said up there, using Seth is still better because he requires so much less EXP than everyone else. Seth can either pwn earlygame chapters massively, or sit there with his gigantic stats and be used more later and let others get the EXP. Unless you're not using Natasha at all, Moulder's indeed taking EXP from someone else, and they both need it a lot.

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Okay, but I'll just repeat something so the judges notice it.

Moulder is the worst unit ever on the enemy phase until he promotes. That's half of the game until he promotes. Seth is useful on every phase, in every chapter, for the entire game.

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No, the difference is far larger than what you're making it out to be.

On Eirik Route, Eirik stays with Seth the whole time, so Moulder's leads disapoof and Seth becomes better overall. Vanessa likes to disapoof and make use of her pwnage flying, and unlike Moulder, she does not need another unit in order to survive. Seth likes to disapoof from Eirik sometimes as well, but that's fine. Seth minus Eirk is a lot better than Moulder minus Vanessa.

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more stats

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Seth's Hit with Javelin: 115.65
Moulder's Hit with Lightning: 128.8

lolwut? Moulder's barely winning even with his absolute most accurate tome, and Seth's using his least accurate weapon? If Seth's Hit with a Javelin is bad, then Moulder's with his most accurate weapon is somehow mediocre.

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But, Seth can do this:
Seth's Hit with Iron Sword: 140.65
And now it's not even possible for him to miss since no enemies have more than 41 Evd right now, or even close to that.

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Seth's Atk with Javelin: 29
Moulder's Atk with Elfire: 24.8

lol

Seth can be using the bottom tier Javelin against Moulder's Elfire and still have more offense. They'll have pretty much the same Hit, but Seth will have more Atk. Then Seth will be costing a lot less.

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lol @ vs hand axes and forests. For the enemy to get to attack from a forest with WTA also, you'd have to be a pretty crappy tactician. After the -15 Hit from WTDA against a hand axe normally, the enemy would need 21 Evd just to put Seth's Hit at 80, which is really 92.

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Why would you go on Ephraim's Route and not use Garcia if you're using Seth on your team? Are you using Natasha, then? Seth is going to get a B every time, so trying to deprive him of it isn't going to work.

The Wyverns have big Def/Res gaps, but Seth's one-rounding those anyways, and he's actually OHKOing with a Slayer. The Def/Res gap stuff only benefits Seth since it lets him OHKO magic users while it lets Moulder OHKO absolutely nothing.

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Seth can't possibly help more by disapoofing. He'd be the single worst unit in the entire game if that was so.

Inui

 

We're not arguing who helps the team moar by disapoofing. It's who's better when you play the game, and that's clearly Seth.

Mekkah

 

No, not at all. In fact, if Seth helps more by disapoofing, it's Moulder that wins, lol. Anyway, no need to repeat things.

Inui

 

Seth can't possibly help more by disapoofing. He'd be the single worst unit in the entire game if that was so.

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None of the other lance users have enough Atk to one-shot with it until much later besides Franz, and he's enjoying his axes already, so they're better off doubling with another lance instead of wasting a use of the Silver Lance by needing two shots to kill something with it.

Inui

 

Franz and Moulder have the same MOV only if Franz is a GK, which is not a gaurantee.

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How many Silver/Killer/Slayer type weapons can Moulder get? None at all. Sharing something with the team is hardly a disadvantage in the face of not having access to it at all.

Seth, at the point we're discussing, needs only that Silver Lance to effectively OHKO lots of stuff. It's later in the game, when such weapons are far more commonplace, that his true arsenal advantage comes into play. For the earlygame, he has gigantic stats. In the lategame, he has a giant arsenal.

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I hope you don't whine about me giving Seth h4x weapons for lategame comparisons, then, since cash apparently doesn't matter at all.

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How does it fail? He has gained more in every parameter by the lategame, and can replace Javelins with Short Spears or a Spear to have much better range. Before that, Moulder is not winning, as shown above.

It doesn't matter if you're not moving on the enemy phase. If Seth's 8 MOV gets him to Chokepoint X or in front of Unit X that's in trouble or in front of Door X to stop a thief or anything like, his movement is indeed being used for enemy phase purposes.

After every turn, Seth's movement win increases by 2.

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No damage at all > minimal damage. Can't deny that, right? Tiny win for Seth...!

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You didn't address that he forces Gilliam and Vanessa, two units that do not depend on him at all for survival, to stay near him, because his durability falls to nothingness when those two are not near him.

Moulder
Offense: 11.8 Atk, 33.8 Hit, 15.8 Atk Spd, 7.25 Crit
Defense: 35.9 HP, 9.2 Def, 12.2 Res, 36 Evd, 4.4 Crit Evd

That's disgustingly horrendous for the midgame. Every other unit's base durability is stomping that into the ground. He's glass, and I don't mean the greatest mercenary of all time from FE 7.

Compared to supportless Seth:
Seth
Offense: 17 Atk, 38.65 Hit, 14.7 Atk Spd, 7.85 Crit
Defense: 35.4 HP, 13.4 Def, 9.8 Res, 43.9 Evd, 14.5 Crit Evd

He's not failing miserably like Moulder is when his partners are absent.

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Before promotion indeed, but we're not discussing that point in the game. Moulder have have +1000 Evd from his supports and still suck on the enemy phase when he's attacked since he's not countering if we're talking about before promotion. Vanessa's flying utility is used before promotion to make her disapoof, as well, just not as safely as she can after she promotes. If the choice is to fly off and do something or just stay near the Moulder, the former is obviously better, but Moulder's piss-poor supportless durability stops her from doing this. That's obviously a negative.

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Terrain penalties don't make them have less MOV overall. Not even close. Franz is stomping on Moulder before promotion, and then they tie after that. Seth is always beating Moulder by a lot. Moulder has situational stuff that grants him minor MOV advantages of like 1 while Seth is raping him everywhere else.

lol, desert. A single chapter. Seth and Franz both have absolutely no need to go into the sand. You need units to fight Valter's big hoarde of enemies.

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kk

*loads up game*

Level 6 Seth enters arena, trashes a level 3 Paladin, gains 59 EXP.

Level 1 Eirik enters the arena, beats a level 1 Myrmidon, and gains 32 EXP.

Seth, at a higher level than his enemy, still gained more EXP.

No, you have two healers right now, and Seth crushes the arena terribly anyways. The Paladin had 39 Hit and did 9 damage, how scary.

Yes, Seth benefits tons and tons more with the arena than anyone else does, and he does it far more safely. Eirik's opponent almost defeated her, while Seth had no chance of losing.

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Seth can use 5,000 Gold more in terms of weapons/etc. and still cost less than Moulder. That was the entire point. My arguement was to make sure you don't go "omg then he costs too much" when I give him h4x weapons.

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Moulder can't even see combat until he promotes.

Seth attacks a random with a unit rescued, and fights like two things on the enemy phase without a kill and gets 9 EXP. Moulder heals on his turn and gains 11 EXP. Lol, Seth can gain almost as much pretty easily. How does Moulder ever get a level lead?

After that, Seth is still a better fighter and more mobile.

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Seth and Ephraim Route Duecel are the most likely due to their gigantic leads.

Btw, I had Seth at 20/7 for Chapter 14, so it's a bit less than that. Some chapters later on, like the Rausten one, have a lot of EXP. Then boss kills exist, etc. Hitting 20/20 in the final is fine for Seth and Ephraim Route Duecel. Moulder? Nah. Why is he likely to hit that level? Because you want to spam Warp and then use the Hammerne on it? Lol wtf. How much in resources is this supposed team player supposed to be consuming? He's depriving your team of 57 uses of something like Garm by having the Hammerne wasted on his Warp, and for what, just to give Moulder a big level? No. Making Moulder a high level with such a bogus strategy just to win a debate is ridiculous.

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Typo, meant Ephraim's route.

Well, you didn't provide any reasoning against Garcia. Jeigan makes good arguements for the big guy, and he indeed is pretty pwn if you go the Hero route to give him swords and +2 Spd.

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lategame

Inui

 

Zanbato vs mounts: 18 Mt more like 12
Armourslayer vs armours: 24 Mt more like 16
Wyrmslayer: 24 Mt vs wyverns more like 16

Inui

 

Heavy Spear vs armours: 27 Mt more like 18
Horseslayer vs mounts: 21 Mt more like 14
Dragonspear vs wyverns: 30 Mt(OHKO ftw?) more like 20, 2HKO ftl

Inui

 

On top of all that, Seth can use Vidofnir, while Moulder will have an S in staves and have no legendary weapon.