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| Mekkah vs Inui | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 27 2008, 02:21 PM (345 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Jan 27 2008, 02:21 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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hooray... imma get tl;dr'd |
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| Mekkah | Jan 27 2008, 02:50 PM Post #2 |
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NOT tl;dr Let's start with the easy part: Ch4 and Ch5. Lachesis is drilling Jamka into the ground, no questions asked. Jamka can be L24 or so, Lachesis just promoted at the start of Ch4 so I guess she's L20, probably more due to the arena but I already had these stats laying around and I don't feel like making new ones. Jamka 24 Sniper HP: 52.2 Str: 24.8 Skl: 17.8 Spd: 21.4 Def: 16.4 Res: 3.9 Luk: 11.2 Mov: 6 Jamka using Killer Bow Offensively: 39 Atk, 17.4 AS Defensively: 36 Avoid, 52 HP, 16.4 Def, 4 Res + Pursuit + 18% Critical + 37% Continue + 43-EnemyAS% Charge Lachesis L20 Master Knight HP: 36.8 Str: 22.0 Mag: 8.9 Skl: 17.8 Spd: 20.6 Def: 17.6 Res: 10.8 Luk: 12.2 Mov: 9 Lachesis using Killer Bow Offensively: 36 Atk, 16.6 AS Defensively: 33.2 Avoid, 36.8 HP, 17.6 Def, 10.8 Res + Pursuit + 18% Critical + Charisma (+10% hit/avoid for others) + Melee WTC (+20% hit/avoid) + Magic WTC (+20% hit/avoid) + Move again after attacking + Switch weapon after attacking + Wtfloadofstaveutility (Warp, Return, Relive, Reserve, Restore, Libro) + Can actually use other weapons than bows (given the same weapon for the sake of a fair comparison) There's no question of it. Lachesis actually fights on player phase, and while Jamka has some marginal wins and a ~15 HP lead, he cannot do anything on enemy phase other than getting picked on by enemies and not countering. Which is pretty bad in FE4 when enemy mounted units can move again and repeatedly hammer him then run away. Lachesis keeps the team alive using any stave possible, she switches weapons after attacking unlike Jamka (heck, she switches weapons period, Jamka cannot do that), she gives others 10 Hit/Evade, etc. She has dibs on the Hero Axe since Lex is probably capped by now. Before that, all Jamka really has is being win in the arena's in 2 and 3. During those chapters, Lachesis is just raising her powerlevel with the help of some retard like Ardan. It consumes stave uses and therefore money, but she has plenty of that. She gets the team a lot of bonus goods: Thief Sword, Earth Sword, Knight Ring, etc, so she pays for them by herself. She's not contributing on the main field in Ch2, but that's canceled by Jamka taking away from the EXP pool of others, and then overridden by him being a total complete useless fucknut on enemy phase as well as not doing anything at all before Amphony anyway due to being unmounted. If it's somewhere near a debate for 2 and 3, and Lachesis pounds him completely for 4 and 5 taking everything into consideration, how is Jamka going to make up for it? Being around for 4 turns in Ch1? I doubt it. Jamka loses. |
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| +Ema Skye | Jan 27 2008, 03:39 PM Post #3 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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First of all, I have a huge problem with the levels you posted. You propose that those are the levels for the start of Chapter 4, yes? Well, here's the exact levels of my party when I played the game trying to use every possible unit in order to not phail in the Experience rank. This means I actually put forth effort into raising Lachesis, but didn't give her any babying. The only unit that got "babying" was Ethlin because she got the Elite Ring to pass down to Leaf. I even held back on Lex a lot due to his Elite. "End of Chapter 3 Ethlin: Level 28.5, Slim Sword, Light Brand, Elite Ring Cuan: Level 17.4, Gae Bolg Fin: Level 20.8, Hero Lance, Javelin After Chapter 3 and Chapter 4's arena... Sigurd: Level 23.2, Silver Sword, Javelin, Speed Ring, Return Ring Noishe: Level 17.5, Steel Sword, Iron Lance, Knight Killer, Iron Cutter Alec: Level 17.3, Steel Sword, Iron Lance Azel: Level 19.5, Elfire, Thunder, Wind, Magic Ring Lex: Level 27.1, Hero Axe, Hand Axe, Shield Ring Midale: Level 12.3, Steel Bow Arden: Level 5.2, Iron Sword Ayra: Level 21.8, Hero Sword, Thunder Sword, Barrier Ring, Knight Ring, Leg Ring Jamuka: Level 21.5, Killer Bow, Hero Bow Edain: Level 17.2, Relive, Warp, Restore Dew: Level 4.1, Iron Sword Holyn: Level 21.2, Silver Sword Beowulf: Level 17.1, Steel Sword, Slim Sword, Wing Clipper Lachesis: Level 13.1, Prayer Sword, Live, Earth Sword, Silver Blade Levin: Level 21.4, Elwind, Libro, Life Ring Fury: Level 16.6, Slim Lance, Steel Lance, Slim Sword, Wind Sword Sylvia: Level 5.4 Tiltyu: Level 11.4, Tron(gains +5 HP from Azel) Claude: Level 23.3, Reserve, Valkyrie, Live, Fire, Thunder Brigid: Level 20.5, Ichival, Skill Ring" This seems to be quite the opposite of what you did, at least with regards to Lachesis. Jamuka is also a bit lower, and this is with constant fielding and clearing every arena he has access to. What exactly are you doing? Forsaking Tactics and overall Experience to level up both of our units extra? Lachesis being limited healing, having very poor combat parameters, and her poor movement makes her difficult to level up that quickly. She can't clear arenas, or win more than 1-2 rounds at all, until she's promoted. That being said, I can't exactly humour your stat comparison from above. Unless I'm horrible at this game or something. When I played through this file, I did pretty well in my Experience rank. Pretty sure it was perfect. "but personal experience" Sure, sort of. What else can we go off when it comes to a rank like this? There's generally no surefire way of getting an S that's used every time the same way, and it's not like every move is predicted and predone for getting these ranks.
lol, no. When Jamuka joins, he's wtfmassiveraep. Level 6 Archer HP: 36 - 90% STR: 11 - 50% MAG: 0 - 0% SKL: 14 - 10% SPD: 14 - 30% LUK: 4 - 40% DEF: 9 - 30% RES: 0 - 5% MOV: 6 Killer Bow: 14 Mt, 100 Hit, 3 Wt Pursuit: Attack twice if his Atk Spd > enemy Atk Spd, which is almost always given his good SPD stat and lightweight Killer Bow. He's way faster than almost every enemy ever, so he should always be doubling things. Continue: Attack twice in a row at Atk Spd + 20% activation. So, it starts off at 31% and ends up at 40%. Duel: Activates 2~20 rounds of combat when HP is above or equal to 25 at unit's Atk Spd - enemy's Atk Spd + HP/2 % chance. Critical: Attack with a critical at SKL = % chance. Starts off at 14% and ends up at 18%. He attacks twice pretty much every time, and has three skills stacked on top of both of those hits. Even against the tanky armour knights of Chapter 2, he'll have a very high shot at one-rounding them. Two shots for Critical, Continue, and Duel all stacked up. H4x. His offense is ridiculous. He has a very terrible SKL growth, but a very good base and a very accurate weapon. Jamuka's offense >>>>>>>>>>>> anything Lachesis can do for the entire game in terms of offense, even with her variety. When Lachesis joins, she's wtfmassivefail. Level 2 Princess HP: 26.0 - 60% STR: 6.0 - 50% MAG: 8.0 - 5% SKL: 9.0 - 10% SPD: 13.0 - 20% LUK: 5.0 - 40% DEF: 7.0 - 20% RES: 9.0 - 10% Bottom tier in offense. Only Edain is losing to her due to having no offense at all. But, Edain's winning durability. Lachesis at joining: 26 HP, 31 Evd w/o weapon, 7 Def, 9 Res Level 8 Edain: 31.5 HP, 35 Evd, 2 Def, 10 Res Considering the weight of swords, Edain is crushing Lachesis in Evd, and then she makes up for her Def loss with a big HP lead. That's really pathetic. So, your entire team is pwning her in offense and defense. You say she's gaining 18 levels by the start of Chapter 4, and I don't even see that as possible without babying her a lot, thus hurting Tactics and the rest of your team. Lachesis's abysmal growths ensure that she won't be changing much until she gets her promotional bonuses. The enemies will increase in stats almost as well as she does as you play through the game, which is pretty sad. Before promotion, she's bottom tier trash. Her only benefits are Charisma and healing, and if she's doing that, she's near the frontlines, and her bottom tier offense and defense makes her a prime target for enemies. She's sharing the Pit of Phailure with Arden and Dierdre in this chapter. Even worse, she has those knights following her around, and they all have to survive in order to get the Knight Ring. She has to be held back due to this. But, it's no loss to your team. Ethlin's a mounted healer, and Edain and Dierdre have bad mobility but they're still there. You also have a good chunk of durable units that don't need healing a lot, like Sigurd, Alec, Noishe, Lex, and Arden. So, Lachesis joins with bottom tier stats and bottom tier growths. In order for her to promote, you have to baby her excessively during a period of huge suck. Jamuka never sucks. He's always good because he starts good and has growths that exist. Jamuka: 255% Lachesis: 215% lol "but he can't counter on enemy phase!" And Lachesis can? If she's attacked at range or up close, she dies. If Jamuka is attacked at range, he counters. If he's attacked up close, he survives easily. Not countering up close >>> high chances of dying when you're attacked regardless. "but prayer sword!" lol, chances. Enemies in this game won't be knocking her down to the proper HP for that in a single blow almost all the time, so she's going to have issues using that effectively, especially when she's twoshotted. Then, it sucks massively against accurate stuff regardless.
So, she's staying back with Arden, using staves for no reason, and not helping the team even slightly? Interesting. She's even worse than I thought. You don't have to use her in order to use those items at all. Lachesis can get 0 EXP and you can get those items and weapons anyways and just give them to better units. How can you compare not contributing at all to not countering on the enemy phase and using EXP? At least when Jamuka is taking EXP he's killing stuff and making you progress, and then leveling up and getting better. Lachesis is apparently doing nothing at all, and then levels up sometimes and gains 2.15 stats. That's horrible. The first generation is much nicer to unmounted units except for Chapter 2. Chapter 2 isn't kind to unmounted units, but Jamuka gains levels from raping two arenas anyways. Chapter 3 is nicer to foot units, and he's definitely doing better as usual. For the one chapter where being mounted is the best, Lachesis is merely a level 2 Princess with bottom tier stats. No win there. It's actually a huge mobility loss due to her piss-poor durability and needing to keep those twins from dying. Joining as one of the best units and staying that way for a mere fraction of the effort due to pwning enemies and clearing every arena >>> joining as one of the worst units and needing babying to get good at all and then barely winning in the very end of the game. Btw, I'd wager that Lachesis consumes more EXP than Jamuka with regards to how much they take from the team. Jamuka clears arenas for huge loads of free EXP, while Lachesis healing takes EXP from Dierdre for one chapter, Ethlin for two chapters, Edain forever, and Claude, Fury, and Levin later on. Not that Jamuka consuming EXP is a bad thing. He's helping you finish the game and then getting stronger from it. Also, huge lulz @ Lachesis being a good healer. "Lachesis L20 Master Knight Mag: 8.9" Yeah, okay. She can run around healing and healing and healing and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. You have to kill things in order to finish the game, and you have to do tons more killing than healing. Fighting is tons more necessary, so don't even pull "healing utility is better" or some shit. |
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| Mekkah | Feb 10 2008, 03:34 PM Post #4 |
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First of all, I have a huge problem with the levels you posted. You propose that those are the levels for the start of Chapter 4, yes? Well, here's the exact levels of my party when I played the game trying to use every possible unit in order to not phail in the Experience rank. I'd object too if Jamka was being thrown into every corner possible. Anyway, what you just posted is indeed personal experience at its maximum. There is no defined levels of course where someone's at, but I highly doubt you actually totally S-ranked the game with these settings. Voltaire, however, did, so I usually take his word for what should be the case. And his case is clearly different, not only for Lachesis: Dew is going to be leveled and promoted sooner or later, for one (it might sound crazy for you, but you need that to S-rank), Ardan needs to steal as many levels as he can when possible by borrowing the Hero Sword and taking on brigands when he's still near them, etc. No offense, but I'm not taking what you say and going along with it just because it was your playthrough. I could take one of mine where I tried to S-rank EXP like you did and reach an opposite conclusion. That said, let's do some maths. Lachesis joins on turn 4 into a chapter that probably takes around 40 turns. Then she has Ch3, during which she should probably get another 30 or so. If she'd heal with Live every turn, she'd get 10.5 levels right there. Then she can probably clear Round 3 of both Ch2 and Ch3 arena's thanks to having all the time of the world to try and having a Prayer Sword, each can net her a level each or so. This alone puts her at 16. Now all she needs is 4 levels from borrowing the Elite Ring for 2 seconds, using the Return Staff, fighting during Ch3 and competing in the Ch4 arena together to promote at the begining of Ch4. That is very managable...if you disagree, you have no hope of S-ranking FE4 ever, since it's hard as shit. And it's worth it. Giving Lachesis resources to get her to promote her sooner is worth it more than favoring others with that much. Her promotion bonuses, for one, are massive. +7 Str, +7 Skl and +7 Def on top of +4 Spd wtf. Becoming mounted is not only +3 move but also moving after attacking AND switching weapons AND keeping up with Sigurd. She also crucially gains Pursuit. Basically, her promotion is one big event to work towards and it helps your team in 478924798 ways. Giving her resources to help her promote is like putting EXP into a unit with 200% all around growths as opposed to one with 100%. She hardly even needs fighting or taking team EXP to get there, too. I mean You also have a good chunk of durable units that don't need healing a lot, like Sigurd, Alec, Noishe, Lex, and Arden. Rofl, like you're ever using Ardan for frontlining beyond Prologue/Ch1. Ardan is much better off staying with Lachesis to make him good for :something: rather than just sitting there doing nothing. He adds nothing to your team at all other than huge tactics delays. Don't make me laugh. "but personal experience" Sure, sort of. What else can we go off when it comes to a rank like this? There's generally no surefire way of getting an S that's used every time the same way, and it's not like every move is predicted and predone for getting these ranks. There you go. I used maths to get to Lachesis' level, but I'll obviously gladly adopt your 21 Jamka for further comparisons. Lachesis wins even more now, lol. I mean, we don't have these standards for GBA FEs either, but nonetheless we apply something like 1.3 levels per chapter for some reason. My reasoning can't be too farfetched then. shameless copypaste of previous debates Jamka can try to keep up with Lachesis in Ch4 and Ch5 on player phase offense as far as his movement allows it, but that's it. And it's largely overkill, as Lachesis can one round anything but a few bosses in Ch4 and Ch5. The exceptions are far and far inbetween: Lamia, Reptor, Langbart, that really is about it. Jamka might maybe win against Lamia on player phase due to his skills, but on enemy phase he's a sitting duck, and the others rape both of our units...no wait Lachesis can technically Iron Cutter Langobart into oblivion. For Ch2/Ch3, She's not contributing on the main field in Ch2, but that's canceled by Jamka taking away from the EXP pool of others, and then overridden by him being a total complete useless fucknut on enemy phase as well as not doing anything at all before Amphony anyway due to being unmounted. All that babbling about Lachesis failing at combat can suck my dick, but lol at a nice attempt of a competition argument by trying to make Aideen look like a better healer. Lachesis isn't fighting for the most of these chapters, but she's not in danger either due to staying out of enemy range. She is, as far as the rest of the team is concerned, completely neutral. Jamka has positives and negatives - positives being quite hax player phase offense, negatives being...in the negative on enemy phase except against enemy bows, and consuming field EXP. Hence why I said all he has is being win in the arena in Ch2 and Ch3 as a clear positive. Anything else he does has cons. The only real negative for Lachesis is that what she's doing is wasting her own money, but since she has plenty of it herself that's no trouble at all. Even worse, she has those knights following her around, and they all have to survive in order to get the Knight Ring. She has to be held back due to this. But, it's no loss to your team. Ethlin's a mounted healer, and Edain and Dierdre have bad mobility but they're still there. You also have a good chunk of durable units that don't need healing a lot, like Sigurd, Alec, Noishe, Lex, and Arden. Hahaha. Aideen needs to go and get the Bargain Ring, and she can't keep up with the Heirhein rush at all. At turn 11 (when the village for the Bargain Ring is destroyed), she is where Azel is standing on that same turn - somewhere around where you face the Heirhein field army, I'm sure you remember the image. She's not doing any crucial healing. Neither is Deirdre...not that she'd help, she doesn't even come with a staff, so she'd have to buy someone else's. To top it off, neither of them do jack on enemy phase, Deirdre because she always dies and never dodges, Aideen because she doesn't counter. So Aideen is stranding herself on the Bargain Ring and never gets back to the last two castles in time. Or you lose the Bargain Ring, whatever. Don't pretend you're not short on healers. Lol at units not requiring healing - you realize they're being outnumbered by Armors, and that Cuan, Lex and Sigurd are the only people actually putting dents in them, do you? You realize nobody is dodging them reliably due to avoid being kind of terrible at this point (what with no constitution and all lances having 80 hit)? Lachesis healing in Ch3 will be welcome. He's always good because he starts good and has growths that exist. Jamuka: 255% Lachesis: 215% Jamka on enemy phase is the epitome of useless. At least Lachesis isn't HINDERING the party there since she's not in enemy range at all - she's back at a castle. Total growths, what? Are you joshing me? Deirdre: 290% Jamka: 255% Fin: 270% Deirdre > Jamka > Fin?? As I believe I've mentioned before, overall averages are what are important, especially when Lachesis' bases aren't used for a large portion of the time. I may as well put Lachesis' promotion bonus against Jamka's and therefore declare Jamka's trip to 20 isn't worth dipshit. And since Lachesis owns Jamka at equal levels promoted and beyond even when Jamka is given a level lead, she wins a fair comparison. You don't have to use her in order to use those items at all. Lachesis can get 0 EXP and you can get those items and weapons anyways and just give them to better units. Even if Lachesis gets 0 EXP, she has these items in her inventory and nobody else does until Lachesis sells them, which gives her a bunch of gold to buy things with. And if you don't want to go through the tedious trading process in this case (so that you don't have to hand in gold for it), then Lachesis indeed has them for her own use. As far as Earth Sword is concerned, since you have to fetch it from Elthsan who is in the middle of his Cross Knights, training Lachesis obviously makes it easier to get that. Either way, this isn't a GBA FE, you have to use everyone. If Lachesis has 0 EXP, you're not going to S-rank. How can you compare not contributing at all to not countering on the enemy phase and using EXP? At least when Jamuka is taking EXP he's killing stuff and making you progress, and then leveling up and getting better. Lachesis is apparently doing nothing at all, and then levels up sometimes and gains 2.15 stats. That's horrible. Here, I'll lay it out schematically for Ch2 and Ch3. Jamka + kills stuff on player phase, which helps you progress + kills stuff on player phase, which means he grows stats and levels + arena gives money and stats and levels - kills stuff on player phase, which means others don't get that EXP - doesn't counter on player phase, which does the opposite of helping you progress: it slows you down - uses resource (Killer Bow) which needs repairing - requires shielding, hindering other units' flexibility and progress Lachesis + heals and gains stats and levels + does arena to a lesser extent to get money and stats and levels - uses resource (healing staff) which needs repairing Btw, I'd wager that Lachesis consumes more EXP than Jamuka with regards to how much they take from the team. Jamuka clears arenas for huge loads of free EXP, while Lachesis healing takes EXP from Dierdre for one chapter, Ethlin for two chapters, Edain forever, and Claude, Fury, and Levin later on. Not that Jamuka consuming EXP is a bad thing. He's helping you finish the game and then getting stronger from it. There's about an endless supply of healing in the game, and nobody else wants to tap from Lachesis' source of healing (beaten up Ardan/whoever). Ethlin is going along to heal necessary wounds then disappears. Investing in Deirdre is a waste, she can't promote, she can't fight in Ch3 and she doesn't exist in 4 and 5. Aideen has been discussed - she can Warpspam even if she doesn't have anything to Relive. For Levin and Fury, well, by the time they are promoted Lachesis is too and she can do the same arena trick as Jamka as well as fight and use about any wand anyway to allow them to select whichever wand they please. Note how this is a game with a lot of people with near or even over 100% HP growth, and usually pretty high enemy accuracy. There's nearly always something to heal for everyone. Also, huge lulz @ Lachesis being a good healer. "Lachesis L20 Master Knight Mag: 8.9" Yeah, okay. Most shortsighted thing I've ever seen, beating "Lilina is bad, Cecilia is too, but Cecilia doesn't need a Guiding Ring". Obviously, Magic is the only stat that exists when healing (Clarine is evidence of this). Lachesis can use Recover if needbe. Relive on her lets her heal like 30HP already which is plenty. And Lachesis is a lot better at fighting and staying alive than any healer you have at this point, plus Charisma makes people in her direct surrounding better. She can run around healing and healing and healing and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. You have to kill things in order to finish the game, and you have to do tons more killing than healing. Fighting is tons more necessary, so don't even pull "healing utility is better" or some shit. Are you kidding me? For Ch2 and Ch3, she does indeed not help your progress, but she's not hindering it either. In Ch4 and Ch5, she is :better: than Jamka at everything - better at fighting, Jamka can't even heal or be Charismatic, and she can use Restore for those dumbass Sleep Staves, as well as Libro/Reserve for wtfsuperlongrange, and Warp/Return to get back to your home castle after killing Levin's first brother, etc. Healing utility wasn't even touched upon this, now it makes Jamka look even worse. |
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3:48 PM Nov 23
