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| Exilon vs Mekkah; Treck vs Ray | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 10 2008, 07:12 AM (270 Views) | |
| Zorak | Feb 10 2008, 07:12 AM Post #1 |
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For the next comparisons I will assume Ray takes part in the Lugh – Chad triangle, having an A support with Lugh. Now regarding Treck’s supports, the clear options would be Miledy and Gonzales, seeing that both struggle for supports enough as it is and are very good units. So Ray joins slightly under leveled with some rather average bases. First off, he joins with a Nosferatu tome, which is quite expensive with a worth of 3000 (!) and only 20 uses, each use being worth 150, furthermore it has a weight of 6 and since Ray has 4 con he will be stuck with 7 AS. At this point he will get doubled by some of the enemies with such spd so for Funds and his offensive sake I will assume he uses Flux the whole time. For every three attacks Ray makes with Nosferatu he wastes an Iron sword worth of money. Ray, lvl 12 HP: 23 MAG: 12 SKL: 9 SPD: 9 DEF: 5 RES: 10 LCK: 6 CON: 4 Ray starts off with mediocre offense and durability, mainly because of his low spd and terrible lck. With a Flux tome: 20.0 atk, 8.0 AS, 90.8 hit, 4.3 crit 22.0 avo, 23.0 hp, 5.0 def, 10.0 res, 6.0 critavo So unless you want him to die, Ray will have to stick to existing on player phase only and finishing off enemies. His low spd means that he will often be doubled and therefore one rounded, seeing how all his defensive stats are abysmal except res. With Nosferatu: 22.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 90.8 hit, 4.3 crit 20.0 avo, 23.0 hp, 5.0 def, 10.0 res, 6.0 critavo Having him fight with Nosferatu has the result of 7 AS with a trade off for 2+ atk and better durability thanks to healing, but healing will only be necessary if he gets hit…and therefore doubled so it’s only useful against mages, seeing how he gets destroyed by anything with str. Treck, lvl 4: HP: 25 STR: 8 SKL: 6 SPD: 7 DEF: 8 RES: 0 LCK: 5 CON: 9 Now Treck doesn’t come exactly with a decent lvl, but his bases are solid enough to have him fight decently, in fact they are just a little lower than Ray’s except for the giant res lead. His spd is equal to Ray’s with a Nosferatu >_> With an Iron Lance: 15.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 84.3 hit, 2.8 crit 19.0 avo, 25.0 hp, 8.0 def, 0.0 res, 5.0 critavo He only gets doubled by Mercenaries and Wiverns, which pretty much no one except Rutger can double anyway. Regarding Wiverns, they have like 10 – 11 AS, so he only gets one doubled by the later. His durability is good right off the bat, though his offense takes a little bit of work to catch up since his spd doesn’t allow him to double anything but knights, it isn’t something to worry about to much though since the only thing everyone except for Rutger are doubling are soldiers and Knights. He only needs two more points in spd for him to double along with everyone else. Now let’s compare him when Ray joins… Ray lvl 12 With Flux: 20.0 atk, 8.0 AS, 90.8 hit, 4.3 crit 22.0 avo, 23.0 hp, 5.0 def, 10.0 res, 6.0 critavo Treck lvl 11 With Iron Lance: 17.8 atk, 9.5 AS, 90.2 hit, 3.8 crit 27.5 avo, 30.9 hp, 10.1 def, 0.4 res, 8.5 critavo By rounding off the numbers Ray wins atk by 2+, hit by 1+ and res by 10+ And Treck wins AS by 2+, avo by 6+, hp by 8+ (!), def by 5+ and critavo by 3+ So I’m seeing Ray being slaughtered in durability, except for when he is fighting mages, which are easily less common than physical enemies and this gets worse when considering Wiverns are the strongest enemies. Ray only wins in offensive stats (except res) and it doesn’t even matter seeing how he doubles less than Treck, if Treck is doing double the damage then clearly Treck >>> Ray in offense. Then on the late game… Ray 20/10 A Lugh B Chad With Flux: 32.6 atk, 17.8 AS, 134.6 hit, 21.9 crit 69.1 avo, 35.4 hp, 12.5 def, 20.9 res, 25.5 critavo Treck 20/10 A Gonzales B Miledy With Silver Lance: 36.0 atk, 17.7 AS, 121.5 hit, 32.5 crit 64.9 avo, 49.2 hp, 18.5 def, 5.2 res, 42.5 critavo By rounding off the numbers Ray wins hit by 13+, avo by 4+ and res by 16+ Treck wins atk by 4+, crit by 11+, hp by 15+, def by 6+ and critavo by 17+. So Treck again w1ns durability by significant hp, def and critavo leads; Ray again wins res by a huge amount and avo by 4, though it’s so insignificant it will hardly make a difference in dodging. Then there is offense won again with atk and crit leads, they tie on AS and Ray gets a big hit lead, though enemies have such mediocre avoid it doesn’t matter much. Now for some other reasoningz… Weapon variety... Treck has good control over the weapon triangle before promotion since he has swords and lances available to him, so he can get 10+ skl, 10+ avo and 1+ atk if he plays his cards right, meaning Ray’s skl lead is near insignificant…then there’s axes after promotion for full control over the weapon triangle. With all the weapons available to him he can have 1-2 range, killer weapons and other stuff such as armorslayer/ horseslayer, etc. He even has 63 crit when using a Killer weapon. Ray…is stuck with Flux as his only weapon for the whole game, unless you want to spoil him with stuff like Nosferatu, if that’s the case one wastes funds and has two points lower in spd before promotion…for only 2+ in mt and healing. “No one fights for Apocalypse!” It’s true that no one fights for Apocalypse since Niime will only be healing if used and Sophia…>_> And Treck has infinite competition for Durandal, Malte and/or even Armads, but remember, Apocalypse is very heavy…it will drop Ray’s AS by 7 points…after promotion (!), so he looses durability and offense; hell, at 20/10 Ray has 11 AS with Apocalypse. Also he has to attack 100 times so he can have A rank in dark magic before promotion and therefore S as a Druid right off the bat. Funds… Both waste 10000 on promotion items, but remember that Flux costs 780 and an Iron Lance costs 360…omg more than double the money…also note that Flux has 30 uses while an Iron Lance has 45 >_> I’m seeing Treck destroying Ray in funds, and if you have him use Nosferatu *points to third paragraph*, so Ray is stuck to Flux for the whole game unless you want to rape your funds. Then there are staves, which are still expensive…like 600 for a Heal staff and that’s the cheapest one, everything else is 1000+ so whenever Ray makes a move funds are pretty damaged. Chad support… He gets one shotted by like…everything on the book, then there’s the fact that he only gets fielded in chest chapters; so Ray has his support liek half the time and if he does get fielded do remember that Ray looses freedom in the sense that he can’t access long range magic range. Furthermore Chad will most likely be thieving instead of sticking near him. Ray A Lugh With Flux: 32.6 atk, 17.8 AS, 129.6 hit, 16.9 crit 59.1 avo, 35.4 hp, 10.5 def, 18.9 res, 15.5 critavo So if Chad isn’t around him he looses his avo lead, hit, crit, def, res and critavo. Then on final notes, Treck has more mov so he gets to enemies before Ray even sees them, also he has nice aid and can reliably rescue someone thanks to moving again. Treck is actually existent on enemy phase so he helps tactics more so than Ray. So to summarise: -Treck has good bases so he's easier to raise (only 1- in AS compared to Ray’s bases…8 lvls early) -Treck is mounted -Treck has control over the WTA and has good variety -Treck has better durability -Treck exists on the enemy phase >_> -Ray rapes funds at best, give him other dark magic and he destroys it -Ray has to bring a unit that won’t be near him half the time -Ray gets doubled early on |
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| Mekkah | Feb 10 2008, 03:13 PM Post #2 |
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Supports
Ray is indeed getting those supports. Treck getting Miledy and Gonzales is a bigger problem: they are really really slow. 1 base with 1 growth means it takes ~60 turns for C, 120 for B and 200 for A. Let's say we go with 10 turns per map (rather royal), and Gonzales joining at the end of 10 or so. It takes him 11, 12, 12x (assuming he's in there), 13, 14 and 14x (assuming he's in there) to get to a C. Then he needs 15, 16, 16x (assuming he's in there), 17, 18, 19 to get to B. 20 is about the endgame: it takes Treck ages to get his earliest support to a B. Miledy joins even later, and to make things worse, she flies off to places Treck can't get to easily. Either she needs to keep Treck company, leaving her flier utility unused, or she flies off and both are supportless. Not to mention that when it comes to comparing given bonuses to others, Treck always gets the short end of the stick: nobody likes a Wind affinity, especially not Gonzales and Miledy. If they have the choice between Treck and a random unit with the same or better support speed as well as a better (read: other) affinity, Treck gets the shaft. Ray is sitting much more pretty in this regard: Lugh is dying for a good A support that gives him that avoid he wants so badly, and it takes just ~14/34/50 for them to get to an A support. Chad is about guaranteed fielding because of his uses outside of battle and is often among your group on the way to chests. batuls
His Spd may be rather average, but to get doubled is a far stretch. The only units that should really pose a threat to him AS-wise are fast Swordies, and none of those can attack ranged, which means he is safe on player phase. For money, Treck "winning Funds" is harder to claim than you might think. For one, Treck has been using weapons for 6-7 maps now, quite possibly expensive ones too to make up for his suckitude compared to the rest of your team. Then, Ray is actually saving weapon uses late-game by being the only sane Apocalypse user, which means less other weapons used - not only because it's free, but also because it takes less uses to kill with a weapon this powerful. I like how you keep jumping between him losing AS and him costing money, btw, try to keep it seperated next time or this debate will be a pain to read. Since you complain a lot about Ray's durability when he joins, I may as well address the issues as well as show how Treck isn't doing better at all - in fact, he's worse. The problem starts, funnily enough, when Treck has not even joined yet. He appears on the map as a green unit with suicide AI. The enemies around him all rape him really really badly. As if he's not in range of plenty of them, he refuses to run somewhere for safety: instead he just attacks whatever is in his range. Those wyverns take like over half his HP away in one blow. The Javelin Knight he stands right next to him does 8 out of his 25 HP. The Steel Bow Archer next to him kills him in 3 hits. The Javelin Soldiers do the same. Mercs only do 6 damage OH WAIT THEY DOUBLE. It takes 2 or 3 generic enemies to bring Treck down. To even recruit him is a pain, and to put him to proper use in this and the following chapters will drive you insane. Effectively, Treck has a good shot at dying before you can even recruit him, so about half of the time he does not even exist for the following chapters. Thankfully, as long as Treck dies as a green unit, it does not count towards your Survival rank, so if you don't plan on using him, he can just die and nobody will care. Ray, however, suffers no such problems. He joins as an enemy that doesn't even attack Chad or Lugh when they get in range, and from there you have control over what he does. Then, Ray has 1-2 range no matter what you equip him with. For Treck to do this, he needs to use a Javelin, which costs him 2 AS, 4 Avo and his weapon triangle bragging rights. This means Ray is safe on player phase nearly all the time while Treck has to either suck to tie his durability or use a normal weapon and lose it. Conclusion: Ray wins player phase durability, aka half the game. On enemy phase, Ray discourages any enemy with 2-range or 1-2 range from attacking him, Treck doesn't. On top of that, he automatically wins against anything that uses magic thanks to his really huge Res advantage. So for Treck to win durability, it has to be enemy phase, and they have to get attacked by a melee enemy up close. That's not a lot, methinks.
"People" like Alan, Lance, Dieck, etc are already doubling the most common enemies by now, or at least around Western Isles. Fighters, Archers, Cavaliers, etc. Treck won't do that for a pretty long time, lol. When Ray joins
Factor in that Ray is hitting on resistance, which is much lower than defense on about everything except magic users (against which he already has a landslide factory). Factor in his 1-2 range which works well both offensively and defensively. Then factor in that Nosferatu is his and his alone for using and that it allows him to tank enemies whenever the lowered AS allows him to (it's only 1 difference, so this is quite often). Then we'll look again.
Wyverns may be threatening, but they aren't common at all. This is midgame. Wyverns only come in endgame, where Ray is completely drilling Treck into the ground, as you'll see.
Treck has 9 AS, maybe 10, Ray has 8. He only doubles when Ray doesn't against enemies with 5 or 6 AS - 2 specific values. And then, even if that's the case, the Def/Res gap gives Ray a humongous power boost to close that gap somewhat, and he wins majorly against anything that has more or less than 5-6 AS. Lategame
Full supports for both and same level? Sorry, I'm going to disagree with you, for a couple of reasons. - Ray gained staves on promotion on top of his usual fighting, which allows him to gain EXP much more often than Treck does, or it allows the rest of the team to gain more EXP, which is a plus for him - Treck promoted at the end of Ch16, because Alan and Lance beat him to the punch of that ONLY Knight Crest. Even sucky units like Bors and Barth do due to level leads. At least Ray is only competing with Lugh and Clarine for two Guiding Rings, and Clarine levels quite slowly due to being locked to staves. Plus, adding another healer (Ray) with that Guiding Ring > adding another attacker (Clarine), because I have plenty of attackers and very little healers. Not to mention a 20 unpromoted Clarine can still heal without stealing EXP, but a 20 Mage/Shaman cannot, so Ray's earlier promotion is more practical. - A Gonzales? Takes like 200 turns...so with 20 chapters taking for that, they wouldn't even get to support until the game is over, even if they're both into 12x, 14x, 16x, 20x and 21x. Lol. Of course some chapters are a little longer than that, but then again they can't always stand next to each other either, partly due to a movement gap, partly because them capping out at 20 for a period of time stops them from being fielded. 20/9 seems about right for Treck at around Ch21 (1.5 level per chapter since 16x), Ray promoted halfway through Ch16 or so and from there gains EXP at a quicker rate thanks to staves, so let's say he's 20/11 or so. 20/11 Ray with A Lugh, Flux 33.1 atk, 18.2 AS, 130.7 hit, 17.1 crit - - 60.1 avo, 35.9 hp, 10.7 def, 19.3 res + permanent 1-2 range + hits on resistance + heals other units to make them better + other misc utility with staves (Restore, Barrier, Torch) + can gain EXP even without attacking enemies + can use Nosferatu to tank forever 20/9 Treck with B Miledy, B Gonzales, Killer Lance 31.6 atk, 17.4 AS, 128.7 hit, 57.4 crit - - 61.8 avo, 48.4 hp, 18.2 def, 5.2 res + weapon triangle + 2 move + move again As you can see, I took away Ray's secondary support, while I gave Treck all he could possibly get. And he's still not winning: 1.5 Atk, ~1 AS and 14 Res vs 40 crt, 1 Avo, 13 HP, 7.5 Def might look a bit like a toss-up, but then Ray has so many misc things that boost his offense, defense or even the team's offense and defense that Treck cannot overcome it. And then Miledy could want to fly away and Treck sacrifices 1 Atk/10 Hit/5 Avo/10 Crt to lose even more.
He doesn't get +10 Skl, he gets +10 Hit. It also only works on player phase, because on enemy phase they're the ones that pick who to attack, so overall it's a lot less. Axes are pretty shitty in this game with low accuracy, and with Treck's pitful 13 Skl as a L1 Paladin you won't find them terribly useful, especially not these 50 Hit Hand Axes. You call giving Ray Nosferatu "spoiling" him when he's the only one who's going to use these tomes (and money isn't an issue, as I've outlined...you can buy these things with the Silver Card in Ch14 btw). Armorslayers and such slayer/killer weapons, however, are in limited. Killer Swords/Lances can be bought in Ch13, but you don't have the Silver Card yet, so you'd be paying double. The next opportunity is Ch17A/18B. Treck is sharing those with others, as well. Don't underestimate Nosferatu's healing effect. Ray's attacking power is pretty enormous as it is, it often gives him an RNG-proof way of dealing with a good number of enemies at once.
Yes, Ray gets a Divine Weapon, Treck does not. Glad we got that covered. Now, yes, Apocalypse is rather heavy, but it will mainly be used for Mamkutes who are even slower (not to mention he OHKOs them). And even then, who cares about doubling now? 18 Mt and +5 Mag makes nearly 50 attacking power, baby. As long as Ray doesn't have to take a counter, he is quite fine. He'll be OHKOing enough of the time. Attacking 100 times with his main weapon? Ohno, that'll be quite difficult, especially since he only has one weapon, plus dealing finishing blows gives double weapon EXP. It's Treck who has to worry about maintaining two-three weapon levels at once, he might not even be able to use Silver when you want him to. Ray can already use every weapon he wants to use when he joins.
blabla Treck uses weapons before Ray joins, free Apocalypse, Silver Card + plenty of fluid money = no cost problems
Yep, been over this. Chad not being around for Ray due to chests is kind of the equivalent of Miledy not being around for Treck due to flying.
Treck can't break from the pack like that ever if he even wants B Gonzales before the game is over, sry. Then Ray has 1-2 range to reach enemies easier, and yes he does exist on enemy phase when you want him to - like after midgame is to a closing and Ray is stomping Treck overall. Hell, Treck might never be able to break away like that to begin with, seeing as how he compares to generic enemies. Rescuing is nearly worthless, the main reason to do that is when one of your other units is injured, in which case Ray's healing >>>, since it provides EXP, leaves the unit doing it at full potential and the unit being helped on the field. So, to summarize: - Treck does not :exist: half of the time because of Ch7 being a hell. Having to reset until he finally fucking lives is absolute ass, it's worse than being a unit that only exists half the time due to route problems. - Treck still sucks after you recruited him, easily the worst unit you'd be using in your army unless you're putting Wendy or Lilina in there. - Treck competes for one Knight Crest with two God tiers and loses, Ray competes for two Guiding Rings with a God and a High tier and beats the God one. - Ray has staves utility and EXP. - Ray is about guaranteed a full support roster, Treck is lucky if one of his supports finishes before Idoun is dead. - Ray has all things a Mag user could wish for that Treck doesn't: 1-2 range and Res-hitting are just examples. - Ray gets apocalypse. |
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| Zorak | Feb 24 2008, 03:51 AM Post #3 |
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SUPPORTS
10 turns? I wouldn't consider that royal at all, more than likely he will spend more than that next to his partners. Some chapters have around a 20 turn requirement around midgame, I find that an extremely long time to keep them together, specially considering that Treck and Gonzales are very likely to stick together due to similar roles, I would say roughly 15 turns together is more close to it. Anyway Treck could easily snatch a C Zealot for early game usage. Miledy joins only four chapters after, not to mention that chapter 13 has a bunch of ballistae around, so she is most likely to staying with the group and therefore Treck, 14x and 15 have lots of archers + long range magic so again she is being held back. Only until the end of chapter 16 is she getting the Delphy Shield to fly around freely, and even still there are plenty of chapters where she doesn't need to move away from the main group(like chapter 16x). And aside from that who else is Miledy and Gonzales going to support? What Treck has over Ray in supports is that he is helping his supporters as well due to them struggling with getting partners as it is. Both Gonzales and Miledy WANT this support so when the opportunity shows up they will stay near Treck, Lugh and Chad could just ditch Ray for Ellen.
Treck doesn’t get the shaft, only if you phrase it the way you did, which implies that for support partners one only looks for support speed and good bonuses. Both Gonzales and Miledy don’t have anyone else to support, so Treck isn’t depriving any of them of someone better, using a good unit with worse bonuses > a bad one with better. While a wind affinity does indeed give subpar bonuses, Wind x Thunder and Wind x Dark are pretty decent and give a bit of everything, not to mention that Wind x Thunder gives full crit, which Gonzales clearly wants.
Chad is only used on chest chapters and stuffz to steal which are 3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 14, 16, 20, 21, 21x, 22, 23. Then there’s the fact that Astol has better bases if you don’t want to put effort in a unit that gets one shotted immediately…and that doesn’t have much potential anyway. Usually chests are on separate rooms from the road to the throne so if Ray wants the bonuses he will have to wait for him to finish of with the chest; also Chad has to be protected at all cost.
Chad is nowhere near the equivalent of Miledy, 3 tiles is decent enough range for Miledy to be in range, especially since she is on the frontlines with Treck and both have the same mov. Even if Miledy spends some turns on her own at least she is being fielded, Chad is only needed on 12 chapters, that’s half of the whole game and only 7 chapters with Ray. Chapter 16, 20, 21, 22 and 23 all have long range magic while the later has status inducing staves, Ray has to stay away from Chad if he wants to put his res to use otherwise Chad gets one shotted so it’s a loss either way. Furthermore chapter 21 is as hard as 7 …arguably more and one only fields Chad to steal a Knight Crest from Murdock so Astol would be the better choice. FUNDS
Nah, first off if Treck gets like 150 EXP per chapter I find it hard to believe that he will be using a lot of weapons, and the most expensive weapon I could see him using before Ray joins is the Killer Lance, which costs 1200, even cheaper than Nosferatu bought with a Silver Card. Treck gains like 12 exp every time he attacks something, if we have Treck killing 1/5 of the things he attacks, with liek 50 EXP from what he kills, he only needs to fight 8 times and kill one thing to gain about 150 EXP Have him equipped with a combination of Iron, Killer and maybe liek quarter of the Gant Lance, he uses up about 9-15 uses weapons in the early chapters, the use only increases when we consider him double and start catching up in lvl. So roughly I’m seeing Treck using like 2 Iron Lances, 1 Killer and quarter of the Gant when Ray joins, which equals 2120G. Even cheaper than one Nosferatu tome, Ray needs to use 3 Flux tomes to catch up in money, then it gets worse.
You make it sound like he was being babied like a bitch, he only uses up round 4 weapons to catch up to Ray’s lvl when he joins, then when Ray uses up a Flux he uses 780…two of them 1560…Ray doesn’t take much at all to catch up to Treck on wasting moneyz. And if we apply Nosferatu then Ray is omg raping funds. Apocalypse is only used at the very end of the game, like for the last two chapters and only has 20 uses, it’s clearly won’t make up for all the other money Ray has used. There isn’t always a lot of money to be spoiling others with really expensive weapons and clearly making funds easier > making it harder, especially if the difference is big. I find it weird how you act like if funds are only dependent on the money currently holding. Silver card only makes a huge difference when one is using the secret shop, and then again that’s unlikely to happen due to them being extremely far away from everything as it is. The first one is right below Zeiss, by the point you recruit him the chapter might be close to finishing and Hugh (who will be probably recruited right at the opposite of the shop) having the card doesn’t make it any easier, anyway if you use it, you won’t be buying much. Not to mention that chapter 21 is hard enough as it is, so getting a flyer to go out of their way to buy some shit will get him/her slaughtered. So nah, Silver Card doesn’t make it much better for him at all, Ray still rapes it considerably, especially with Nosferatu. Track saves you more money, and therefore saves up for better weapons and maybe even elixirs to be used for pplz, so he is even making the team better by saving you money, unlike Ray. WHEN TRECK JOINS
One can send Rutger, Lance and Alan to clear off the closest enemies, that way the Mercenaries and Armors won’t pose a problem. Then on turn 2 one can have Marcus with a vulnerary rescue him, his AS will drop to around 5 but he still won’t get doubled by anything near and his defense will stay intact. Go down and drop him near Roy, then recruit him. Even still Treck has a Vulnerary that even the AI uses when he gets weak. He has as much def as Alan 6 lvls ahead of him so his durability is actually quite good, yes he isn’t doubling anything but Soldiers and Knights, but the only things the others are doubling that he isn’t are Fighters so he is not much worse off. In fact, it takes like 3 generic enemies to bring Lance and Alan down : ]
Alan lvl 12 with B Alan C Roy, Iron Lance. 22.0 atk, 11.0 AS, 100.3 hit, 13.9 crit 44.4 avo / 30.3 hp, 9.8 def, 2.1 res, 12.4 critavo Treck lvl 7 with C Zealot, Killer Lance. 19.2 atk, 8.0 AS, 96.8 hit, 38.2 crit 24.5 avo / 27.6 hp, 8.9 def, 0.2 res, 11.5 critavo =/ I won’t throw BS and start claiming that Treck is better than Alan, but claiming that using him will drive you insane is clearly untrue, his stats are not very far apart and Alan is only doubling Knights, Soldiers and Fighters. Treck doubles Knights and Soldiers right of the bat, and he only needs to get to lvl 9 to double Brigands.
Cavaliers have like 10 spd around chapter 9 or so, Alan averages 14 spd at lvl 20, so how the hell is he doubling cavs? Same thing goes to Dieck, and it will actually take a while for Lance to double. The only thing they double are Fighters, Knights and Soldiers until they promote, so Treck is not worse off by much. Also remember that Brigands and Fighters weight themselves down with heavy weapons, like to 5 AS, so Treck can double them easily, same with Soldiers. BATTLE
When wielding Nosferatu, he gets doubled by mages and some archers. He isn’t as durable against magic as you might think. Then there’s mid game promoted units, they all double him, while Treck only gets doubled by Heroes, Ray gets doubled by everything else. He takes pretty strong counters from Archers, they all can double him with Iron so he isn’t better off at all. And Fighters are 1 HP away from one shotting him so even when they don’t double they leave him near dead.
Decent amount of enemies have ranged weapons, except the axe and sword users…and the latter double him. Anyway using Javeling isn’t a problem, everything with ranged weapons he can’t double anyway (except soldiers, but these stop appearing really soon) so the AS cost doesn’t matter, he won’t get doubled, remember than a Javelin wielding Treck is as fast as Flux wielding Ray. Player phase might be worth half the game on with a quick view, but enemy phase is much more important when it comes to defeating enemies and advancing, and that’s what Ray and Treck do for like the whole game, so it’s much more important to win durability on enemy phase, where most of the fighting is done.
Magic users are always rarer when compared when physical units, which is sadly what Ray lacks defense against and even still he sometimes gets doubled by them. Also do remember that they have a lot of res as well, so Ray is hurting combat if he feels like tanking. Treck on lategame has hand axe for 1-2 range plus decent hit in 103.7 hit, then WTA win applied 113.7 hit, that isn’t bad at all, since enemies have around 30 avo late game that leaves Treck with 95.04 % true hit. On top of that, there are plenty of enemies with ranged weapons, so there will be many times where Ray has to eat up a counter to train himself or stay doing nothing on player phase.
That’s the case if Ray doesn’t take a counter, but since like 1/3 of the enemies have Javelins and Hand Axes that isn’t really the case + archers and mages. He has to limit himself almost the whole time or eat a counter. Also Ray is not getting touched at the cost of not doing anything on enemy phase, which is easily worse. Enemy cavaliers 2HK him with javelins, and between packs of cavaliers like a 1/3 of them have them, so when that situation presents itself they rather target Ray than anyone else, unless this someone else is Lalum. Your main argument for saying that Ray wins durability is “he doesn’t take counters!” but by doing so not only is he gaining less exp and doing nothing on enemy phase, but he also has to restrict himself the whole time to avoid 1-2 range on player/enemy phase and avoid being countered up close on enemy phase; and you won’t find his 5 mov very useful when it comes to this. So he isn’t using his offense very often.
He only wins against magic users when it comes to durability (lategame btw); he has trouble hurting them so it’s actually bad for the combat rank. He has like 16-17 spd during the late game, then there’s the fact that he gets 1- spd due to Nosferatu being heavy. Early game, it’s even worse, he gets doubled by some things at this point, how the hell does he tank if he gets a pattern like this… Hit-Heal-Hit- Hit-Dead Its only tanking if it’s a bunch of armors, also if you have him take a hit then heal you are fucking the combat rank, not to mention the funds rank as well. Res difference between enemies is only much bigger in the late game, where Treck is clearly winning. Enemies have 2-3 res for the most part so Ray isn’t much better off, fighters have around 5 def, not much of a difference, then there’s mages, priests and troubadours. And then promoted enemies have around 8 res, in midgame. Unpromoted enemies generally have a 4 gap between res and des, even when they are at lvl 20. Then Treck can switch weapons when he wants more strength in one hit or use a lighter one if he can double, Ray is always using Flux.
Oki, too bad that Ray doesn’t promote where you originally said he would, so it’s the other way around. If being uncommon is the only thing you can say on the matter then Ray shouldn’t touch the tip of chapter 21, where he will easily get slaughtered by the huge army of Wyverns. And Wyverns appear on midgame, in small packs, but still dangerous, so Ray has to restrict himself even moar then?
A humongous power boost? lol Treck has liek 20 atk around chapter 13 with Gant Lance + C Zealot, Ray has the same, then the res difference is only like 3-4 at max, not very humongous methinks. He can then switch to something lighter to double and rape Ray. Oh, did I somehow forget that Ray is using his offense around half the time Treck is using his? He doesn’t close the gap at all. LATEGAME
He promotes at 18B at best and is only gaining 5 EXP each heal due to E staff level, even still he competes at healing with other (better) units like Clarine, Saul, Ellen and Lugh so he is hardly healing every turn.
Ray gets easily overshadowed by Lugh, Clarine, Saul and Ellen for a promotion item. Clarine is a much better choice to promote than Ray, first off, you already have Saul, Clarine, Lugh and maybe even Ellen for healing, if you promote Ray solely for staves then he will be having a hard time finding a gap to heal. Wtf? If a level lead > stats them I’m having a hard time seeing Ray promoted at all, Barth doesn’t get touched and Bors is dropped off near the early game, Treck’s only competition are the two cavs. Too bad Ray gets outclassed by Clarine, Saul and Ellen in stats. Clarine is probably at level 14 by the time you get Ray, she gets a level up and a half at least each chapter, seeing how she is the one with the lowest level among your healers and the one with better durability very soon she gets top priority when there is someone to heal. At level 14 Clarine has 47.4 avo, much better than Ray’s, which is 22, not getting hit > being hit for a lot of damage…then we apply that Ray sometimes gets doubled when trying to make up for it (Nosferatu). Now, her offense once promoted is piss poor, but that’s exactly the reason you want her promoted quickly, to raise her anima level and have her use stuff like Aircalibur so she can hurt Wiverns and other stuff overall. Also when Clarine, Saul and Ellen promote they get an EXP bonus, unlike Ray. Having a healer that helps the EXP even when attacking > Just another healer. If Clarine reaches lvl 20 then Ellen and Saul will be healing instead if you want to help the EXP rank, so it’s pretty much the same thing. So Ray is easily forgotten about and promoted at 18B, two chapters after Treck, hell, even if you were to buy a guiding ring on chapter 16 Saul and/ or Ellen would get it, not Ray.
Wut, you claimed that Ray gains EXP at a quicker rate with staves, yet you claimed that Clarine levelled slowly because of staves? Oh and Ray isn’t promoting at Ch 16 btw, the end of 18B at best or he is depriving three better units of a promotion, so he is actually with less level than Treck in this regard, hell, like 20/8 if he is promoting two chapters later of what you planned. Oh and if we go to Sacae, he would be 20/5 to be raped even more.
fix'd Even if we go your way and use B Gonzales and 20/9 Treck beats him easily, what happens with Chad support? 20/8 Ray with A Lugh, B Chad, Flux 31.7 atk, 17.0 AS, 132.3 hit, 21.4 crit 67.2 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.2 def, 20.2 res, 25.2 critavo Even with Chad support he gets defeated/ tied in everything except res, hit and the only noticeable change is avoid, avoid he won’t be getting for half the time and avoid that Treck will get when he wins WTA so even still the change isn’t omgwtf. So every time he fights enemies with lances Treck beats Ray in everything except res and hit, the later only being a win if he has Chad support. As mentioned before, in Sacae the situation is even worse, since he has 11 AS at best until the very last chapter (20) and gets horribly raped by Nomads. When taking this route he shouldn’t be fielded at all.
The fact that he makes the team more durable and therefore proceed faster gets countered by the fact that he starts out like shit, and everyone has to shield him/proceed slower so he doesn't get killed. Since he gains staves late and heals the least out of everyone he is rarely healing.
To raise staff level Ray has to spam heal staves 50 times, if he promotes through 18B he has like 7 chapters to get the level before it matters. First off other healers will be healing much more than him due to actually being better and secondly there won’t be someone to heal every single turn, so he isn’t getting D in staves before the end of chapter 24.
5 EXP at max.
Lances are pretty common, especially endgame, so with axes he is getting the bonus pretty easily, even on enemy phase; also killer axe has 65 + hit so it’s not shaky, like 128.7 hit at lategame, nearly exactly what Ray has.
Nosferatu has 20 uses worth 150G each, how is that not spoiling him? And even if funds are easy to S rank, clearly helping it > not helping, especially since unless you arena abuse everyone you won’t have a omgwtf amount of money to go around stocking up on Nosferatu tomes and staves. Even with the silver card Nosferatu is as expensive as a silver sword without it. Treck is fine with killer, he often won't need anything better.
Nah, Ray promotes late, and unless we are talking about a bunch of Knights, having Ray sitting between a bunch of enemies with Nosferatu will rape the combat rank since he isn’t doubling and even still enemies do more damage that he is healing so he isn’t all that better off. And when we go to Sacae, on chapter 21, Ray has like 14 AS with Nosferatu. Would you srsly go and tank considering that gets doubled by most enemies and two shotted by all of them?
Ray with Apocalypse is less useful that you might think. The Mamkutes are only overly present on the last chapter, and you can only bring 10 units in that chapter, two of those being Roy and Fa so it’s actually 8 units. Ray might be able to one shot Mamkutes with Apocalypse, but he becomes automatically the worst unit on player phase in return, not only does his avo blow, but THE MAMKUTES OHKO HIM. That chapter has a lot of Mamkute reinforcements, all coming from the last throne, so in order to protect Ray from getting destroyed you have to keep him between your units during the bridges, hell, Lalum is better off than him in enemy phase since she has double the avoid. With the low amount of units one can bring, why field one that only exist on player phase? Especially with all the reinforcements flooding I much rather bring someone with durability. Not to mention that Mamkutes have 150+ hit so you can’t even try praying that they will miss when targeting Ray.
Treck only needs to keep lances round B before promotion and take swords to D and he is fine as a paladin, afterwards he just needs to worry about getting axes to C so he can get killer.
B Gonzales takes 120 turns, chapters aren’t 10 turns long like you mentioned, maybe the first chapter. Treck can easily move away from him for a while and still get the support during late game. With a hand axe Treck is fine when dealing with lance users, like 104 hit, then with bonus this becomes 114 so it isn’t bad (95.04 % true hit). And lol no, Treck is trashing Ray since he promotes late (even later in Sacae btw) and is outclassed at healing by every single unit that can touch staves. Do remember that Treck has better stats that Ray in the late game in every single department except hit and res, even with a Chad support. Then there’s WTA to rape him even in hit…with an axe, if Treck measures up with enemies I don’t want to know about Ray.
More like exposed, if you need let’s say, Lalum to refresh someone at the cost of being exposed to enemies then Treck can just rescue her, how does Ray fix that with (healing) staves? Also if a unit is injured and exposed then I rather use Clarine who actually has durability, get Ray to heal exposed and he most likely gets killed, especially if you consider his late promotion time. So in short… -Treck has mobility and rescue capabilities. -He has WTA advantage -He beats Ray in every stat except avo (Chad only), hit and res, then add WTA advantage to rape him even further. Then if we go to Sacae he is even worse. -Ray doesn’t have his support more than half time -Ray promotes at 18B at best (chapter 20 in Sacae =]) so he is even more under leveled than Treck -Ray hurts funds and combat when using Nosferatu |
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10:58 PM Nov 27
