Inui vs. Tino

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Inui vs. Tino_1190; Tauroneo vs. Largo
Topic Started: Feb 12 2008, 12:45 PM (285 Views)
Tino	Feb 12 2008, 12:45 PM Post #1
Posts: 158 Group: FEFFer Member #1,594 Joined: December 17, 2007	3 posts each. A coin flip says that Inui opens.



+Ema Skye	Feb 12 2008, 11:27 PM Post #2
Snackoos = <3. It's science! Posts: 20,967 Group: Advisor Member #40 Joined: June 9, 2005	Tauroneo joins before Largo at a higher level, which is already massive w1n. He consumes almost no resources to be good, and if you decide to use him to fill up your lategame team, you can feed more kills to less units early on in order to get a stronger team in general. In terms of financial resources, he comes with expensive items to buffer out any cost of using weapons and he hasn't cost anything yet, so he can afford h4x weapons. So, Tauroneo is a good unit that consumes almost nothing to be good. Big point for him. Tauroneo is nearly invincible. He has good HP, high Def, high Res, and then Resolve for h4x Atk Spd and Evd when he's just halfway dead. 20/16 Tauroneo: 49 HP, 23 Def, 15 Res(Can use KW for +2 to both) 20/7 Largo: 52 HP, 10 Def, 3 Res Lol, not even a comparison for durability. Largo's small HP lead means nothing in comparison to Tauroneo's gigantic Def and Res wins, 13 and 12 to be exact. Largo's tiny Evd win is nullified by Tauroneo's superior WT control quite often, and Largo is forced to suffer WTDA against all swords, cutting his defense and offense by a lot. Any win Largo can have over Tauroneo would be in offense, which is still very arguable. Largo's offense is good, but it also hurts him a lot. He kills stuff that attacks him, then something else moves there and attacks him. and this can repeat until he finally dies. Largo has issues frontlining, so he uses his offense less than Tauroneo can use his. Tauroneo also wins offense by a gigantic amount once Resolve kicks in, while Largo can never negate Tauroneo's gigantic defensive wins. Resolve!Tauroneo owns Largo in every offensive parameter, and then he still wins defense anyways at half HP. Tauroneo is way better.
	MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH


Tino	Feb 13 2008, 11:22 AM Post #3
Posts: 158 Group: FEFFer Member #1,594 Joined: December 17, 2007	Quote: Tauroneo joins before Largo at a higher level, which is already massive w1n. What does this matter if he actually is pretty bad when he joins? His durability is very good, ofcourse. I can’t deny that. But his offense is really horrible. And with his good durability he isn’t likely to activate Resolve, so that also doesn’t really help. Let’s just compare him to the other Generals, Brom and Gatrie, at that point without them using the KW. And I also give the stats without weapons because they’re using the same weapons anyway. 14 Tauroneo 22 Att, 13 AS, 43 Hit, 9 Crit - - 48 HP, 22 Def, 14 Res, 40 Avoid, 14 CEvade 8 Gatrie 24.8 Att, 11.5 AS, 40.6 Hit, 9 Crit - - 48 HP, 24.8 Def, 8.4 Res, 32.5 Avoid, 9.6 CEvade 9 Brom 22 Att, 14 AS, 46 Hit, 10.5 Crit - - 46 HP, 24.5 Def, 10 Res, 36 Avoid, 8 CEvade Tauroneo ties Brom for the lowest Att. Tauroneo has the second highest AS, but since Gatrie can have the KW, he probably has more AS by now, so Tauroneo loses. Tauroneo has the second highest Hit, but 3 Hit isn’t going to make a difference. Crit is irrelevant in this case. Taureneo ties Gatrie for the highest HP. Taureneo has the lowest Defense, even though it’s still good. He has the best Resistance, but since Brom or Gatrie is using the KW, they can close the gap a bit with that because it gives 2 extra Resistance. And this also widens the Defense gap. Tauroneo has the highest Avoid, but because Brom and Gatrie can use the KW and will have more Speed than this, they will have more Avoid. Tauroneo has the highest CEvade, but that’s also pretty irrelevant. Now also take the fact into that Brom and Gatrie have supports by now to even widen the gaps or close the gaps which makes the even better compared to Tauroneo. So, he loses to both of them. Wow. Is there a reason to use Tauroneo over Brom and Gatrie? ”Tauroneo has omgwtfResolve which is pwn!” Yes, sure. What does this skill matter if you won’t fall below half HP easily? If you have good durability like Tauroneo, you aren’t likely to activate a Skill like Resolve. So, this also doesn’t help him at all. So, if you look at this, it doesn’t matter that you get Tauroneo before Largo at a higher level because he is the worst of the three Generals and there’s no reason to use three Generals, and especially not the worst one of them. And the fact that Largo joins at a lower level can actually be an advantage for Largo, because he has more levels to gain. Quote: He consumes almost no resources to be good, ??? Are you saying he doesn’t need a lot of weapons to be any good? Without a Silver weapon, he doesn’t have the ability to actually kill enemies, because he can’t double and his Strength isn’t omgwtfgood to OHKO enemies. And even with Silver Weapons he isn't killing things. Perhaps some Sages and Bishops or so, but Largo can kill those too, so that doesn't matter. Quote: In terms of financial resources, he comes with expensive items to buffer out any cost of using weapons and he hasn't cost anything yet, so he can afford h4x weapons. Not like money is an issue in this game… And that’s great and all, but Largo also comes with a Silver Axe, which is pwn, and he gives one of the two Short Axes in the game. Tauroneo gives one of the infinite Silver Blades and one of the three Spears in the game. Perhaps Tauroneo’s items are more expensive, but money really isn’t an issue in this game. This is like saying that Volke charging 50 gold a pick is bad. Quote: Tauroneo is nearly invincible. He has good HP, high Def, high Res, and then Resolve for h4x Atk Spd and Evd when he's just halfway dead. Lol. He is nearly invincible but then has Resolve for decent AS and decent Avoid. Lol. If you didn’t notice, that was sarcasm. 1) He doesn’t activate Resolve if he is nearly incincible. 2) If he even activates Resolve, his AS is still decent at most and his Avoid still isn’t great. 3) Lawl. Quote: Lol, not even a comparison for durability. Ofcourse. I can’t deny this. Quote: Any win Largo can have over Tauroneo would be in offense, which is still very arguable. Largo pwns Tauroneo on offense, actually. 16 Tauroneo 23.1 Att + 13.6 AS 7 Largo 21 Att + 20 AS Lol. He only loses Att by one due to axes and has way more AS, so he easily wins. And no, he won’t die immediately. Enemies don’t have enough AS to double him and his high HP and decent Avoid let him survive enough attacks. Quote: Largo's offense is good, but it also hurts him a lot. He kills stuff that attacks him, then something else moves there and attacks him. and this can repeat until he finally dies. He isn’t doubled by any enemy. And his durability is good enough to survive. Quote: Largo has issues frontlining, so he uses his offense less than Tauroneo can use his. Largo doesn’t die and kills enemies. Tauroneo doesn’t die and doesn’t kill enemies. Who uses his offense less? Quote: Tauroneo also wins offense by a gigantic amount once Resolve kicks in, This is never going to end, I guess. Resolve doesn’t activate. Not with his durability. Quote: Tauroneo is way better. Perhaps when Largo joins and I’m not even too sure about that. But endgame 20 Tauroneo, A Largo Killer Lance: 35.3 Att, 14.8 AS, 127 Hit, 40.5 Crit - - 51.6 HP, 27.1 Def, 17.9 Res, 59.5 Avoid, 14.9 CEvade 14 Largo, A Tauroneo/B Muarim Killer Axe: 36.9 Att, 23.2 AS, 130.6 Hit, 41.8 Crit - - 57.6 HP, 14.3 Def, 6.9 Res, 85.5 Avoid, 14.1 CEvade Largo wins offense no doubt. 2 more Att, 8 more AS, 4 more Hit and 1 more Crit. Tauroneo can’t beat that, since Resolve doesn’t activate. Durability is arguable. 86 Avoid is actually quite a lot and 58 HP is nothing to laugh at. Tauroneo may have good Defense and Resistance, but Largo doesn’t get hit as often as other characters. And 1 CEvade doesn’t make a difference. So while Largo clearly wins offense by quite a lot, Tauroneo wins durability by a small amount, so Largo easily wins.



+Ema Skye	Feb 13 2008, 07:15 PM Post #4
Snackoos = <3. It's science! Posts: 20,967 Group: Advisor Member #40 Joined: June 9, 2005	Quote: What does this matter if he actually is pretty bad when he joins? Most of your team isn't outdoing a level 14 General, sorry. You're going to have prove he's bad when he joins. If anything, his gigantic level puts him ahead of a lot of units. Quote: Let’s just compare him to the other Generals, Brom and Gatrie, at that point without them using the KW. And I also give the stats without weapons because they’re using the same weapons anyway. 14 Tauroneo 22 Att, 13 AS, 43 Hit, 9 Crit - - 48 HP, 22 Def, 14 Res, 40 Avoid, 14 CEvade 8 Gatrie 24.8 Att, 11.5 AS, 40.6 Hit, 9 Crit - - 48 HP, 24.8 Def, 8.4 Res, 32.5 Avoid, 9.6 CEvade 9 Brom 22 Att, 14 AS, 46 Hit, 10.5 Crit - - 46 HP, 24.5 Def, 10 Res, 36 Avoid, 8 CEvade Tauroneo ties Brom for the lowest Att. Tauroneo has the second highest AS, but since Gatrie can have the KW, he probably has more AS by now, so Tauroneo loses. Tauroneo has the second highest Hit, but 3 Hit isn’t going to make a difference. Crit is irrelevant in this case. Taureneo ties Gatrie for the highest HP. Taureneo has the lowest Defense, even though it’s still good. He has the best Resistance, but since Brom or Gatrie is using the KW, they can close the gap a bit with that because it gives 2 extra Resistance. And this also widens the Defense gap. Tauroneo has the highest Avoid, but because Brom and Gatrie can use the KW and will have more Speed than this, they will have more Avoid. Tauroneo has the highest CEvade, but that’s also pretty irrelevant. Now also take the fact into that Brom and Gatrie have supports by now to even widen the gaps or close the gaps which makes the even better compared to Tauroneo. So, he loses to both of them. Wow. Is there a reason to use Tauroneo over Brom and Gatrie? This doesn't matter at all because the debate is Tauroneo vs Largo, not Tauroneo vs the other Generals. Try actually arguing for your own character being better instead. Since this debate has to do with Tauroneo, it's assumed that he's getting used, so you're not going to be using the other Generals, and if you are, you're still using Tauroneo. Quote: ”Tauroneo has omgwtfResolve which is pwn!” Yes, sure. What does this skill matter if you won’t fall below half HP easily? If you have good durability like Tauroneo, you aren’t likely to activate a Skill like Resolve. So, this also doesn’t help him at all. Early on, yes, the enemies are too weak to damage Tauroneo enough. Even with constant WTDA he's going to be tanking like a monster. Hmm... Wow. So, he basically is 100% invincible and can do whatever he wants. Awesome. Resolve helps him later. Like, around when Largo joins. Quote: And the fact that Largo joins at a lower level can actually be an advantage for Largo, because he has more levels to gain. EXP Tauroneo takes from the team: 600 BEXP needed for Tauroneo to catch up: 0, because he starts ahead of the team. EXP Largo takes from the team: 1300 BEXP needed for Largo to catch up: ~500 in actual EXP in order to get up to around level 12 so he doesn't suck ass. No, it's always a huge advantage. It's not like Largo has god tier growths to make use of those extra levels, and Tauroneo starts with higher stats anyways so he barely needs levels at all. Quote: ??? Are you saying he doesn’t need a lot of weapons to be any good? Without a Silver weapon, he doesn’t have the ability to actually kill enemies, because he can’t double and his Strength isn’t omgwtfgood to OHKO enemies. And even with Silver Weapons he isn't killing things. Perhaps some Sages and Bishops or so, but Largo can kill those too, so that doesn't matter. Tauroneo joins as a level 14 General. EXP he has consumed to get that high: 0 Money he has spent to level up that high: 0 No resources spent, yet you get a solid unit. Quote: Not like money is an issue in this game… And that’s great and all, but Largo also comes with a Silver Axe, which is pwn, and he gives one of the two Short Axes in the game. Tauroneo gives one of the infinite Silver Blades and one of the three Spears in the game. Perhaps Tauroneo’s items are more expensive, but money really isn’t an issue in this game. This is like saying that Volke charging 50 gold a pick is bad. If money isn't an issue, then I'll just use forged Silver Swords/Lances all the time with maxed Crit and Hit for Tauroneo. Money obviously matters because all units consume resources to be used, even Laguz. Tauroneo also comes with an Occult scroll...! Quote: Lol. He is nearly invincible but then has Resolve for decent AS and decent Avoid. Lol. If you didn’t notice, that was sarcasm. 1) He doesn’t activate Resolve if he is nearly incincible. 2) If he even activates Resolve, his AS is still decent at most and his Avoid still isn’t great. 3) Lawl. Tauroneo is only totally invincible when he first joins, which is a period of time that Largo doesn't even exist, so it's only a plus for Tauroneo to be there and be invincible. Being an invincible unit >>> not existing. When Resolve is needed, it activates, which is later on, around when Largo joins. 16 Resolve!Tauroneo: 21 Atk Spd, 56 Evd 7 Largo: 20 Atk Spd, 52 Evd Hmm, if Resolve!Tauroneo only has "decent" Atk Spd and Evd with Resolve, then Largo's must be mediocre when he joins, but he doesn't have ridiculous Def and Res to make up for his problems, nor will he have gigantic Atk(22 vs 34). What skill does Largo have anyways? None. Quote: Ofcourse. I can’t deny this. Okay, so you concede that Tauroneo owns the shit out of Largo defensively...but then you try to say otherwise below this. Stay consistent please. Quote: Largo pwns Tauroneo on offense, actually. 16 Tauroneo 23.1 Att + 13.6 AS 7 Largo 21 Att + 20 AS Lol. He only loses Att by one due to axes and has way more AS, so he easily wins. And no, he won’t die immediately. Enemies don’t have enough AS to double him and his high HP and decent Avoid let him survive enough attacks. He isn’t doubled by any enemy. And his durability is good enough to survive. Largo doesn’t die and kills enemies. Tauroneo doesn’t die and doesn’t kill enemies. Who uses his offense less? KW Tauroneo, since no other Generals should really be used right now and the Paladins got their use out of it already, will have 14.2 Atk Spd and then +2 Def/Res to make him more invincible. Yes, he dies easily. He doesn't need to get doubled to die when he has meh Evd and 10 Def/3 Res for his defensive parameters. When Largo joins, most enemies are level 7 promoted and the enemy Laguz are level 11. Level 7 Sniper w/ Silver Bow: 17 Dmg, 67 Hit, 12 Crit: 1 HP from a OHKO Level 7 Sage w/ Elthunder: 19 Dmg, 52 Hit, 4 Crit: Can OHKO Level 7 Swordmaster w/ Silver Sword: 18 Dmg, 82 Hit, 12 Crit: Can OHKO Level 11 Tiger w/ Claw: 22 Dmg, 77 Hit, 0 Crit Wow, his durability is bottom tier. Worst of all, his offense is generally good enough to kill these things. One attacks him, dies, and then another moves in. It only takes a random 3-4 hits per enemy phase to kill him, and there are a lot more than that moving around attacking you. Largo's terrible Def/Res makes him an ideal target for the AI, so they go after him and raep him. "but he sux vs those wut about lances and axes???" What about them? He still sucks. Level 7 Halberdier w/ Silver Lance: 18 Dmg, 50 Hit, 0 Crit Level 8 Wyvern Lord w/ Silver Lance: 22 Dmg, 48 Hit, 0 Crit Level 7 Warrior w/ Silver Axe: 23 Dmg, 50 Hit, 0 Crit Still pretty terrible. 52 HP is nice, but not when your Def and Res are garbage. How does Tauroneo compare? Well, take Largo's Dmg taken and minus 13 from that, and then minus an extra 1 for every sword and axe used. In addition to this, he takes 12 less Dmg from the Sage. For Resolve, you can do something like force WTDA on Tauroneo against a few things, and then activate it and rape the rest of the chapter. Largo can't do this. He goes under half HP...and he's 1-2 hits from dying. Quote: 20 Tauroneo, A Largo Killer Lance: 35.3 Att, 14.8 AS, 127 Hit, 40.5 Crit - - 51.6 HP, 27.1 Def, 17.9 Res, 59.5 Avoid, 14.9 CEvade 14 Largo, A Tauroneo/B Muarim Killer Axe: 36.9 Att, 23.2 AS, 130.6 Hit, 41.8 Crit - - 57.6 HP, 14.3 Def, 6.9 Res, 85.5 Avoid, 14.1 CEvade Largo wins offense no doubt. 2 more Att, 8 more AS, 4 more Hit and 1 more Crit. Tauroneo can’t beat that, since Resolve doesn’t activate. Durability is arguable. 86 Avoid is actually quite a lot and 58 HP is nothing to laugh at. Tauroneo may have good Defense and Resistance, but Largo doesn’t get hit as often as other characters. And 1 CEvade doesn’t make a difference. Lol, right to the endgame, totally skipping the rest of the game where Largo can't have supports and is at a low level with horrible defensive parameters. Well, it's a given that Tauroneo is raping Largo badly before this, so we can move onto Largo's best possible chance and still show that he sucks. First of all, we're not using the other Generals this time around, and the Paladins are speedy enough and had time for the KW earlier. Tauroneo also only needs it briefly to level up once in a while. He should have more Atk Spd than that, and thus moar Evd. 16.6 Atk Spd and 63.1 Evd is more accurate. Second of all, lol @ B Muarim. Lethe is really good and supports him way earlier. Zihark is his best option by far. With these two around, Largo can't get this support. They'd have to both not be in play for that to happen. This is like me arguing for Rolf supports. 86 Evd is nice, and 58 HP is indeed nothing to laugh at. However, I give a few hearty laughs at 11.8 Def and 4.4 Res without supports, and still laugh at his supported Def/Res. Tauroneo is still invincible...to a certain degree. Some enemies can harm him, and forced WTDA certainly will do that to him. He also benefits by moving away from Largo to reduce his durability for Resolve to activate sooner, so Largo doesn't always have Tauroneo.
	MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH


Tino	Feb 16 2008, 05:15 AM Post #5
Posts: 158 Group: FEFFer Member #1,594 Joined: December 17, 2007	Quote: Most of your team isn't outdoing a level 14 General, sorry. You're going to have prove he's bad when he joins. If anything, his gigantic level puts him ahead of a lot of units. It’s not the level that matters, it’s performance. And if other perform better at a lower level, then a level lead doesn’t mean anything at all. Quote: This doesn't matter at all because the debate is Tauroneo vs Largo, not Tauroneo vs the other Generals. Try actually arguing for your own character being better instead. Since this debate has to do with Tauroneo, it's assumed that he's getting used, so you're not going to be using the other Generals, and if you are, you're still using Tauroneo. Sure, sure. But my main point was that Tauroneo isn’t likely to be played because there are two superior characters, even though we assume he’s used right now, which is a negative for him. Largo is the only Berserker in the game, and a good one at that, so there’s no reason not to use him. He has no other characters in his class that are superior to him. Except for Boyd, if you count him as a Berserker Quote: Hmm... Wow. So, he basically is 100% invincible and can do whatever he wants. Awesome. If he could actually kill, then yes, it would be awesome. But he can’t kill… Quote: No, it's always a huge advantage. It's not like Largo has god tier growths to make use of those extra levels, and Tauroneo starts with higher stats anyways so he barely needs levels at all. Fine. Then we give him some BEXP, although it may be a small negative, to let him catch up. Great. Makes him better than without BEXP. Quote: Tauroneo joins as a level 14 General. EXP he has consumed to get that high: 0 Money he has spent to level up that high: 0 No resources spent, yet you get a solid unit. Really, I don’t care whether I have to feed a character some kills to let him reach a high level. That’s what the purpose of this game is after all: killing enemies to beat chapters. And money, well, you have more than enough of it, so that also isn’t an issue. Now, if this game would’ve had ranks, then this would indeed be an advantage for Tauroneo, but since this game doesn’t have ranks, this really doesn’t matter. Quote: If money isn't an issue, then I'll just use forged Silver Swords/Lances all the time with maxed Crit and Hit for Tauroneo. Money obviously matters because all units consume resources to be used, even Laguz. Tauroneo also comes with an Occult scroll...! Money is an issue, ofcourse, but it isn’t a big one. And if you want to forge weapons, go ahead. You can only buy one a chapter anyway, and you get tons and tons of money after each chapter, so yeah, you can easily afford a forged weapon after around every chapter. As for the Occult Scroll: Huzzah! All hail Tauroneo now! I can also use Volke to steal it (or even Sothe) and then Tauroneo doesn’t come with it anymore. W00t. But yes, it’s an advantage for Tauroneo. But that Occult isn’t a necessity at all. Quote: When Resolve is needed, it activates, which is later on, around when Largo joins. 16 Resolve!Tauroneo: 21 Atk Spd, 56 Evd 7 Largo: 20 Atk Spd, 52 Evd Hmm, if Resolve!Tauroneo only has "decent" Atk Spd and Evd with Resolve, then Largo's must be mediocre when he joins, but he doesn't have ridiculous Def and Res to make up for his problems, nor will he have gigantic Atk(22 vs 34). ‘K. But wait, if he can fall below half health that easily, and his Avoid is still rather bad (just like Largo’s when he joins) then he can also fall to 0 health rather easily. Or you may want to heal him, but then his Resolve boosts are gone. And then he loses yet again. Quote: What skill does Largo have anyways? None. Indeed, but he has an innate Crit boost and therefore is a good candidate for Wrath. I mean, look at some endgame offensive and defensive stats with both at 20/20. Tauroneo w/ Resolve, A Largo Killer Lance: 48 Att, 22.2 AS, 148 Hit, 45.8 Crit - - 25.8 HP, 74.3 Avoid, 27.1 Def, 17.9 Res, 14.9 CEvade Largo w/ Wrath, A Tauroneo/B Muarim Killer Axe: 41.4 Att, 25.8 AS, 125.5 Hit, 114 Crit - - 30 HP, 92.5 Avoid, 15.8 Def, 8.1 Res, 15.9 CEvade Offense is no contest. Largo will always land a Crit and will therefore always kill the enemy, whereas Largo doesn’t always kill because he doesn’t always double. Largo doesn’t need to double with his Crit. Durability is debatable, because even though Tauroneo’s Defense and Resistance leads are huge, 93 Avoid is also incredible. Largo is hard to hit and when you still have 30 HP left, it’s not hard to survive. And because Largo wins offense and durability is debatable, Largo wins. Quote: Okay, so you concede that Tauroneo owns the shit out of Largo defensively...but then you try to say otherwise below this. Stay consistent please. I more or less tried to confuse you with that, but it seems it didn’t work. Aw well, who caeres. Quote: KW Tauroneo, since no other Generals should really be used right now and the Paladins got their use out of it already, will have 14.2 Atk Spd and then +2 Def/Res to make him more invincible. Woohoo… So basically, his AS changed from 14 to 14, yay! And making him more durable makes him less likely to activate Resolve. Phail. Quote: When Largo joins, most enemies are level 7 promoted and the enemy Laguz are level 11. Level 7 Sniper w/ Silver Bow: 17 Dmg, 67 Hit, 12 Crit: 1 HP from a OHKO Level 7 Sage w/ Elthunder: 19 Dmg, 52 Hit, 4 Crit: Can OHKO Level 7 Swordmaster w/ Silver Sword: 18 Dmg, 82 Hit, 12 Crit: Can OHKO Level 11 Tiger w/ Claw: 22 Dmg, 77 Hit, 0 Crit Wow, his durability is bottom tier. Worst of all, his offense is generally good enough to kill these things. One attacks him, dies, and then another moves in. It only takes a random 3-4 hits per enemy phase to kill him, and there are a lot more than that moving around attacking you. Largo's terrible Def/Res makes him an ideal target for the AI, so they go after him and raep him. Lawl. There are perhaps 2 silver weapons at most. Really, enemies don’t have a lot of silver weapons, not even endgame, where there are about 6ish silver weapons, so let alone a lot of silver weapons here. No, they’re more likely to use steel weapons. Level 7 Sniper w/ Steel Bow: 13 Dmg, 62 Hit, 12 Crit Level 7 Sage w/ Elthunder: 19 Dmg, 52 Hit, 4 Crit Level 7 Swordmaster w/ Steel Sword: 13 Dmg, 77 Hit, 12 Crit Level 11 Tiger w/ Claw: 22 Dmg, 77 Hit, 0 Crit The has a chance of 8.58% chance to Crit. The Sage has a chance of 2.176% to Crit. The Swordmaster has a 10.758% chance to Crit. The Tiger doesn’t Crit. And even when the SM and the Sniper Crit, they still leave him with 13 HP left. And even then, they aren’t very likely to Crit. Oh, and give Largo a Hand Axe or something like that and they will go after Ike or one of your Swordmasters because they can’t counter them. The Swordmaster, yeah, that’s another story. And the Sage can also go after Largo, but the chance that both will Crit and kill Largo is less than 1%, so they won’t kill him. And how big is the chance that all enemies are together and all going for Largo? Small, really small. Quote: "but he sux vs those wut about lances and axes???" What about them? He still sucks. Level 7 Halberdier w/ Silver Lance: 18 Dmg, 50 Hit, 0 Crit Level 8 Wyvern Lord w/ Silver Lance: 22 Dmg, 48 Hit, 0 Crit Level 7 Warrior w/ Silver Axe: 23 Dmg, 50 Hit, 0 Crit Still pretty terrible. 52 HP is nice, but not when your Def and Res are garbage. Level 7 Halberdier w/ Steel Lance: 13 Dmg, 45 Hit Level 8 Wyvern Lord 2/ Steel Lance: 17 Dmg, 43 Hit Level 7 Warrior w/ Steel Axe: 18 Dmg, 45 Hit All together, they don’t deal enough damage to kill Largo and then they have 37-40 true hit, which means they’re not likely to kill Largo. Quote: Lol, right to the endgame, totally skipping the rest of the game where Largo can't have supports and is at a low level with horrible defensive parameters. Well, it's a given that Tauroneo is raping Largo badly before this, so we can move onto Largo's best possible chance and still show that he sucks. Chapter 26 is already near the end of the game, so other comparisons don’t really matter a lot. Quote: First of all, we're not using the other Generals this time around, and the Paladins are speedy enough and had time for the KW earlier. Tauroneo also only needs it briefly to level up once in a while. He should have more Atk Spd than that, and thus moar Evd. 16.6 Atk Spd and 63.1 Evd is more accurate. So, why aren’t we using the other Generals? Even though Tauroneo is used, there’s no rule that forbids the use of 2 Generals, especially not when another one is better anyway. Brom, for example, who actually has enough AS to double effectively endgame and also has pwn durability. If someone takes the KW, it’s Brom. Not Tauroneo. Quote: Second of all, lol @ B Muarim. Lethe is really good and supports him way earlier. Zihark is his best option by far. With these two around, Largo can't get this support. They'd have to both not be in play for that to happen. This is like me arguing for Rolf supports. Lol @ using two Laguz and lol @ Muarim wanting a Hit support. He wants avoid way moar than he wants hit, and Largo also wants Avoid. Quote: 86 Evd is nice, and 58 HP is indeed nothing to laugh at. However, I give a few hearty laughs at 11.8 Def and 4.4 Res without supports, and still laugh at his supported Def/Res. And when you give him the needed BEXP to get him to 20/20, he has 93 Avoid, 16 Defense and 8 Resistance, which is already a lot better. And I know his Defense and Resistance aren’t great, but who caeres when your offense is possibly the best in the game and when you have tons of Avoid and great HP to make up for it? Quote: Tauroneo is still invincible...to a certain degree. Some enemies can harm him, and forced WTDA certainly will do that to him. He also benefits by moving away from Largo to reduce his durability for Resolve to activate sooner, so Largo doesn't always have Tauroneo. Then Tauroneo also doesn’t have Largo, leaving him unsupported. Largo still has a support partner named Muarim.



+Ema Skye	Jun 10 2008, 06:43 AM Post #6
Snackoos = <3. It's science! Posts: 20,967 Group: Advisor Member #40 Joined: June 9, 2005	Out of courtesy for Tino, I shall now finish this debate, but unfortunately I am too lazy to get tons of evidence and I stayed up all night, so perhaps it will be a lackluster finish. Quote: It’s not the level that matters, it’s performance. And if other perform better at a lower level, then a level lead doesn’t mean anything at all. lol The level lead gives an estimation of his power. A level 14 General will generally outperform everyone else if they're like...barely promoted. Only units like Titania and Stefan are close to his level. Tauroneo's stats are actually higher. Quote: Sure, sure. But my main point was that Tauroneo isn’t likely to be played because there are two superior characters, even though we assume he’s used right now, which is a negative for him. Largo is the only Berserker in the game, and a good one at that, so there’s no reason not to use him. He has no other characters in his class that are superior to him. Except for Boyd, if you count him as a Berserker Gatrie isn't better. Gatrie has a small period of being awesome early on, then he leaves, and then rejoins as a sucky unit and needs babying to be good, and he has to take the Knight Ward from someone else to be a good unit. Tauroneo takes no babying, always rapes, and has Resolve. Who cares if Largo is the only Berserker? He sucks. This is like saying Canas and Rath are worth using due to being the only units in their respective classes. No, they both suck, so fuck them. Quote: If he could actually kill, then yes, it would be awesome. But he can’t kill… He can't kill? Resolve!Tauroneo kills anything. Normal Tauroneo can OHKO lots of stuff and kills stuff in two hits regardless. He can use any sword or lance in the game. Not one-rounding =/= not killing. One-rounding in general is difficult. At least Tauroneo doesn't die so easily, unlike Largo. Quote: Fine. Then we give him some BEXP, although it may be a small negative, to let him catch up. Great. Makes him better than without BEXP. Largo needs BEXP. Tauroneo doesn't need any EXP at all. Hmm. Quote: Really, I don’t care whether I have to feed a character some kills to let him reach a high level. That’s what the purpose of this game is after all: killing enemies to beat chapters. And money, well, you have more than enough of it, so that also isn’t an issue. Now, if this game would’ve had ranks, then this would indeed be an advantage for Tauroneo, but since this game doesn’t have ranks, this really doesn’t matter. The problem is that those kills could be given to someone else. Tauroneo doesn't need to take EXP from other units to be good. He can just bait a bunch of units, hit them once for huge damage, and then the lower level characters can get the kills. Largo just dies if you use him as bait, and he takes kills and BEXP to be good while Tauroneo takes nothing. Quote: Money is an issue, ofcourse, but it isn’t a big one. And if you want to forge weapons, go ahead. You can only buy one a chapter anyway, and you get tons and tons of money after each chapter, so yeah, you can easily afford a forged weapon after around every chapter. As for the Occult Scroll: Huzzah! All hail Tauroneo now! I can also use Volke to steal it (or even Sothe) and then Tauroneo doesn’t come with it anymore. W00t. But yes, it’s an advantage for Tauroneo. But that Occult isn’t a necessity at all. Uh, okay then. No, it's honestly not. You don't have to use Tauroneo at all to benefit from the Occult Scroll. That should have been your arguement. Quote: But wait, if he can fall below half health that easily, and his Avoid is still rather bad (just like Largo’s when he joins) then he can also fall to 0 health rather easily. Or you may want to heal him, but then his Resolve boosts are gone. And then he loses yet again. You see, he doesn't fall that low easily. He takes like 1-3 damage from enemies until the lategame. Yes, this means Resolve isn't in play until halfway through chapters, but he's still making use of his offense and doesn't take healers' turns away. Largo has to be protected due to his terrible durability and he requires constant healing to not die if he's frontlining. Quote: Indeed, but he has an innate Crit boost and therefore is a good candidate for Wrath. I mean, look at some endgame offensive and defensive stats with both at 20/20. Tauroneo w/ Resolve, A Largo Killer Lance: 48 Att, 22.2 AS, 148 Hit, 45.8 Crit - - 25.8 HP, 74.3 Avoid, 27.1 Def, 17.9 Res, 14.9 CEvade Largo w/ Wrath, A Tauroneo/B Muarim Killer Axe: 41.4 Att, 25.8 AS, 125.5 Hit, 114 Crit - - 30 HP, 92.5 Avoid, 15.8 Def, 8.1 Res, 15.9 CEvade Offense is no contest. Largo will always land a Crit and will therefore always kill the enemy, whereas Largo doesn’t always kill because he doesn’t always double. Largo doesn’t need to double with his Crit. Durability is debatable, because even though Tauroneo’s Defense and Resistance leads are huge, 93 Avoid is also incredible. Largo is hard to hit and when you still have 30 HP left, it’s not hard to survive. And because Largo wins offense and durability is debatable, Largo wins. lol @ Largo with Wrath with his already abysmal defenses. He's basically dead at that point. Tauroneo has ridiculous Def and Res to make him not die. Where did that Muarim support come from? Miss this?: "Lethe is really good and supports him way earlier. Zihark is his best option by far. With these two around, Largo can't get this support. They'd have to both not be in play for that to happen, and both are great units, and thus frequently used. This is like me arguing for Rolf supports." Without B Maurim, he's fucked. Tauroneo is fine even without A Largo. Also, this is basically one chapter. For the rest of the game, Largo has nothing to make up for his fail durability. Quote: There are perhaps 2 silver weapons at most. Really, enemies don’t have a lot of silver weapons, not even endgame, where there are about 6ish silver weapons, so let alone a lot of silver weapons here. No, they’re more likely to use steel weapons. Level 7 Sniper w/ Steel Bow: 13 Dmg, 62 Hit, 12 Crit Level 7 Sage w/ Elthunder: 19 Dmg, 52 Hit, 4 Crit Level 7 Swordmaster w/ Steel Sword: 13 Dmg, 77 Hit, 12 Crit Level 11 Tiger w/ Claw: 22 Dmg, 77 Hit, 0 Crit The has a chance of 8.58% chance to Crit. The Sage has a chance of 2.176% to Crit. The Swordmaster has a 10.758% chance to Crit. The Tiger doesn’t Crit. And even when the SM and the Sniper Crit, they still leave him with 13 HP left. And even then, they aren’t very likely to Crit. Oh, and give Largo a Hand Axe or something like that and they will go after Ike or one of your Swordmasters because they can’t counter them. The Swordmaster, yeah, that’s another story. And the Sage can also go after Largo, but the chance that both will Crit and kill Largo is less than 1%, so they won’t kill him. And how big is the chance that all enemies are together and all going for Largo? Small, really small. Level 7 Halberdier w/ Steel Lance: 13 Dmg, 45 Hit Level 8 Wyvern Lord w/ Steel Lance: 17 Dmg, 43 Hit Level 7 Warrior w/ Steel Axe: 18 Dmg, 45 Hit All together, they don’t deal enough damage to kill Largo and then they have 37-40 true hit, which means they’re not likely to kill Largo. lol, you raped yourself. He's getting owned by steel weapons, even. What a joke. You don't think that level of durability is absymal? He loses durability to units like Soren and Mist. That's horrendous. They're not likely to kill Largo, but they still can. Enemies love targetting units with horrible Def and Res. Largo is a prime target. More than three will gladly gang up on him. Tauroneo's chances of dying? 0%. Quote: Chapter 26 is already near the end of the game, so other comparisons don’t really matter a lot. Yeah, only the final chapter matters at all. The period of time where Tauroneo is raping massively before Largo even exists can just be discarded, right? Quote: So, why aren’t we using the other Generals? Even though Tauroneo is used, there’s no rule that forbids the use of 2 Generals, especially not when another one is better anyway. Brom, for example, who actually has enough AS to double effectively endgame and also has pwn durability. If someone takes the KW, it’s Brom. Not Tauroneo. Gatrie sucks. Brom is fine, but he doesn't need the KW forever, and Tauroneo levels up like once every two chapters so he only need to take it briefly for his level up and then he can give it to someone else. Quote: Lol @ using two Laguz and lol @ Muarim wanting a Hit support. He wants avoid way moar than he wants hit, and Largo also wants Avoid. Muarim wants a support for the whole time he exists instead of waiting for one that only helps him in the endgame. Who cares what Largo wants? Muarim waiting for Largo will hurt Muarim and the people he could be supporting besides Largo earlier. That's bad. Quote: And when you give him the needed BEXP to get him to 20/20, he has 93 Avoid, 16 Defense and 8 Resistance, which is already a lot better. And I know his Defense and Resistance aren’t great, but who caeres when your offense is possibly the best in the game and when you have tons of Avoid and great HP to make up for it? lol, you BEXP'd him enough to get him to 20/20 in the above comparison? He took that much from the team? Wow. Quote: Then Tauroneo also doesn’t have Largo, leaving him unsupported. Largo still has a support partner named Muarim. Tauroneo's durability is so incredible that he doesn't care about supports. When Resolve activates, his offense becomes God Tier and his Evd jumps up a lot and he can never be doubled.
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