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| Mekkah vs Former Guest; Saphy vs Salem | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 21 2008, 10:59 AM (413 Views) | |
| Mekkah | Feb 21 2008, 10:59 AM Post #1 |
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Two units... Light and Dark Magic... A tense Thracia debate coming to a topic near you... |
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| Mekkah | Feb 21 2008, 11:45 AM Post #2 |
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not tl;dr Saphy is the best unit you have. If you don't use her, you're not going to SSS-rank this game at all. That makes her more important than everyone else, including some mediocre unit like Salem. To SSS-rank, you need to beat the game in 179 turns. You're not going to make that without Warp (lol 24 chapters plus you'll go to 7 gaidens, that's like 6 turns per map), and Saphy is the first person who will get Warp by a landslide. Salem and her join with the same C in staves, but Saphy has 40 Staff EXP AND about 7 more chapters to build it up further. Anyone after that has a lower staff rank too, except for Sleuf who is already very late, route-dependant and sucks as well. Plus, without Warp: - Tina will spam the Thief and Unlock staves to hell on you - You're not getting any of the treasures in 12x - Salem is going to put your people to sleep and break the Sleep staff you'll want to use - You're not getting the Dragon Lance for Dean But really, the turn requirement alone is evidence. Saphy is the best for speeding up chapters like this. She's impossible to outdo. That said, she also has a level lead on Salem and will get a Knight Proof before he does. She's also been helping your team for far longer, being pretty much the only available healer besides "I wonder what it's like to grow Magic"-Nanna. Then she recruits Shiva (which is required) and supports him (and he's amazing) as well as Lifis (who is pretty much 100% required too) and Tina (who is decent and fielded for her personal staves at least). Yeah, how the shit is Salem going to do as much for you? |
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| Former Guest | Mar 8 2008, 09:51 PM Post #3 |
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Alright, we have Saphy, kidnap-prone priestess vs. Salem, jack of many trades brooding a hole in the floor holy fucking huge picture: reaver My client has every right to be glum. He once belonged to a cult which enjoys practicing child genocide among other evils, and his thoughts of regret have left him no time to wriggle out of his Lopt outfit. Dude knows his place. It's to man up and accept he has more of a background role while two other units with staves teach him lessons in level leads and utility. Penchants for getting kidnapped seem to run in Saphy's family. I guess her people skills need some work or her position of piety wouldn't be treated as less than nothing. Salem can civilly negotiate with thieving masterminds like Parn, so he must be doing something right. Does 15/0 sound reasonably uninflated for Saphy on the Dandelion map? Well, enjoy that lead while it lasts because it will gradually dissipate if not be turned upside down. Salem is one of three magicians in the game starting out with good ranks in multiple fields of study who can promote, and happens to be viable/adaptive enough to do so for his services rendered. Units like him in the series are few and far between. In fact, I can think of just two others like that on the page: Julia (goddess of win) and Radiant Dawn Rhys (stinks like skunk). Signs of Saphy's past achievements starting to pale are already evident thanks to scenario possibilities presenting themselves like Salem being able to slink behind Lifis after he plucks a slim sword off some stray thief and OHKO it with Jormung for EXP while Saphy laments nobody has wounds to heal. With Leaf's fan club spreading like wildfire during the later half of 776, Saphy can't help but fade into the crowd more than Salem will and nothing is going to change that. Unit cooperation is not a one way street. Even ignoring the blatant favoritism aspect of pepping her up with stamina drinks whenever she fatigues, she's practically guaranteed to consume all the drinks you receive for free. Is it any wonder? Her endgame HP would have been competition for Salem's way back when he joined! And a staff tends to increase the fatigue meter by more than 1 mark when it's got less charges than heal. How's that for opting to be a selfish bitch? The drinks are expensive items, some of which you could have been holding on to for sale consideration or other characters might like.
I'm inclined to believe as per your recent comments on the tier thread that this goal is only attainable on Elite Mode. You'll have to excuse me not to care so much as a result. FE5 Triple S rank is the kind of insanity that makes European Extreme Big Boss rank for the MGS series break down and weep, no envy involved I assure you. Try framing your arguments to accomodate lowering the rank bar a little. After all, an A grade is nothing to be hanging one's head in shame at, and isn't assigned lightly unless the judge is high, a numbnuts or who knows what.
3, 7, 8, 8x, 9, 10, 11, 11x, 12 C rank in staves has you in very good standing already and well, I can see where you're coming from with the first four chapters. Saphy able to tag along for three consecutive chapters before any stamina drinks? Naw. But of course. Most of the group is removed to such an extent from Saphy's entrance down south on ch. 7, a long vertical map, that she won't get to heal too many people unless they'd rather not use their vulneraries and thus be forced to refrain themselves from ganging the reinforcements for no good reason that I can think of, so her main patient will be Finn. 8 is a relatively short and easy chapter for this game. Saphy won't be getting her staff on too much either. Dagda's mansion is where she can take a lot of credit. Leaf is always fielded, Lifis is definitely getting fielded here, and Shiva is another distinct possibility. Everything falls into place for the most part. Noel Canyon: Note that her assistance is going to be more straitjacketed than usual for two chapters in a row starting with this one. Ballistas are so merciless she is still possibly OHKOd if she climbs on peak terrain in Leaf's support range. Healing with physic is fine but it's only 5 charges tops. On chapter 11, once you befriend Fred you have no way to reach the ballistas prick extraordinaire Kempf ambushes you with until you ascend all the way up that narrow locked door stairwell. She'll likely have to be confined to one of their blind spots in that central square alcove or outside the Dandrum perimeter, healing at range, and to add insult to injury can't do jack about the ballistas not so adverse to sadistic Fred targeting. Murder Hollace has narrow corridors and fog of war to navigate, and she's pretty restricted at first again. Budging far into the western alley wouldn't be too beneficial - with archers lurking on the sidelines, any damage she incurs is a turn she spends not healing a combat unit.
Oh hey it's Sleuf! Yeah - he sucks. Or, he does not exist at all. Lose-lose. Thanks for the scroll, though. Even desperately spamming rewarp in an effort to catch up and be special will do anything but ensure he's making it onto a given map team before lots of other people. That mediocre paladin he has to be fielded to recruit included. Next.
Not necessarily. There is this wondrous staff called magic up that with some harmless positioning can be traded to bolster the resistance of whoever has below 3 magic to little Tina's thief staff. Just another way for both our characters (and possibly Nanna if she's not taking a break) to demonstrate their utility on the very first turn and score EXP besides clearing the fog of war.
Unless you forfeit Trewd, a considerable smorgasbord of EXP, and extra spoils from thieves/reinforcements, then no matter what, one or some of the treasures are probably going to be lost to you.
But this daring feat wouldn't be complete without a downside - the warped character that's able to capture him in one round is forced to haul him about for most of the chapter and look stupid fighting brigands.
Flyers took nerf bats to the face in this game. One of Dean's faults is that his mobility is often restricted on outdoor maps because ballistas were given the most major buff they've had since the afterthought obstacles in Genealogy. Freege loves to deploy them often, in high numbers, cunningly and they even get leadership bonuses to sharpen their accuracy. You see what I'm getting at. Unfortunately, in order to not hang out of range and cower like a civilian unit, he's going to have to jump off his wyvern, stick to swords, and his class loses the most stats dismounted. The dragonspear is faultless as a weapon for combat and capturing purposes, but Dean is a flyer who doesn't get to be as awesome with it as he could be, especially when you consider he only gets that awesome for 9 maps. Just saying.
Mountain out of a molehill. With the very few charges of the first warp staff you have, how much turn count impact can that possibly translate to? Mount a defense for blowing all five of her Hammerneish charges on Corple's present instead of personal weapons if you want. I wouldn't get your hopes up for me digesting it seriously, though.
From 12x onward at the very least, he can do at least twice as much and not submit to fatigue as often compared to a promoted Safy by what, 16a/b? Next post I'll elaborate on this in more detail with a breakdown by chapter which shouldn't get too text wallsy. Brace yo' self. |
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| Mekkah | Mar 9 2008, 07:17 AM Post #4 |
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I swear every time I try to make a debate short and to the point someone counters with their characters' biography and a massive essay. @_@
Or, from unbiased standpoint: Attractive Priest from Tahra so desirable that not only she but also her underage sister get kidnapped vs Evil guy that chickens out only to join another evil organization ("they don't kill innoncents" on me all you want, they're still thieves) to save his life. Sorry, correction: these thieves save HIS life. I'm afraid being able to negotiate with Parn isn't exactly a huge feat. Trewd is his best buddy and he doesn't seem very bright either, and it only takes Lifis or Lara to make him change his mind as well.
Well, that depends on what rank we're taking. So, we'll have to tackle this first:
Lowering the bar here would be about the same as using Eliwood Hard Mode instead, or settling for 4 stars all around in HHM. It's common sense to use the highest standard possible in a debate, which would be non-Elite Mode SSS-rank, in which case Saphy is the undisputed winner. I'm willing to go through on a lower standard, however it would be technically for kicks because there is no way Salem can best Saphy on the highest level. The one truth being unreachable didn't make philosophers stop: in fact, I think a really really hard goal to press units against gives a better measurement for their true helping than a goal that you can reach even when using worse units. If it was about equally easy to get the highest rank with the best or the worst unit, then there's no real point in tiers or character debates, is there? And lowering the bar does not help Salem's case versus Saphy. It becomes 270 turns instead (or 250 and passing up a character), and you get ~9 turns per map instead. Closer to 8 if you go to more than 7 gaidens. That still commands the use of Warp way more often than you can use by replacing Saphy by any other (later-lower-level) staff user. It's good to lay this stuff out though, FE5 debates seem relatively unexplored in their standards so we really should go on about this, perhaps moreso outside than inside this debate (because it is clearly more favorable right now for you to stress the nonviability of the highest rank possibility). Either way, back to this:
If we're playing for SSS-rank and Elite Mode, she should be pretty much promoting right now. If we're going for A, I'll accept it.
I don't really get how this is helping Salem's case vs Saphy in FE5, I don't get why you're bringing other games into this (especially since being prepromoted is a good thing even outside the Knight Proof-scarce FE5) and in some games (such as FE4 or GBA FEs) no one really cares about these nice flashy magic types you can use, since one type would clearly stand out over the others (Anima in GBA, Wind in FE4).
You seem to be talking about 12x here, in which case Saphy would be Warping someone to capture Trewd, secure treasure or make everything run away by allowing Lara to talk to Parn to make the whole map quicker altogether. She's done more than any other unit can do at this point, so it's okay if she just heals for the rest. It seems like Salem's relatively best chapter too: he's always there and there's things he can OHKO. I lack enemy samples but I really doubt his Yotsmung OHKO is going to be consistent throughout the game, especially considering its shaky 84 base hit and the single-RN system plus the broken terrain bonuses in this game. Of course there's other factors that determine hit, but usually those cancel each other out: Leaf's leadership is usually overridden by that of the enemy, and Nanna will not always be there or near him. And will he always be OHKOing like that as he does on one of the weakest combat classes? I hope he does, because he won't be reliably doubling for a while either way. And the 12x Archers, for example, double him when he has Yotsmung equipped.
That's a lot of rukus, but weakened by the fact that most of your early scrolls give a bit of a HP boost and they're available for Saphy for longer than Salem. That should give her like 1-2 extra on its own overall, I guess. Then she's one of the best candidates for either of the Life Rings you get. But even then, being fatigued just means she can sit on the bench and allow Nanna or someone else to come in and rock. She's alright with that, because her leveling will be quite fine consistently throughout the game thanks to staves (+Elite Mode) while many others lag. Plus, fighting takes up a lot of energy: Salem, for example, may have to fight on enemy phase, and that tacks onto his fatigue as well. Saphy should only be getting stamina drinks when the benefits of that override the cost of that one drink. Otherwise, she'll be fine sitting it out. Being on the bench allows others to get a spot and more action, so it's not just a point against her.
I took that into account when I said seven chapters.
Actually I'd say that in that map, you should Hicks Halberd the boss into oblivion right away so you can focus on getting items, getting Shiva, maybe getting some other swords, then get out ASAP. Saphy will be one of the few getting some EXP here as Fin can use the arena or the Brigand group to fight and train swords. Or they can move down to make Shiva and a few other swordies come to them to make his recruitment easier.
The boss has to be captured and that's pretty annoying in itself, and people are bound to get poisoned at least once, so she has plenty to heal if needed. Nanna is fatigued for this one too, so she's on her own. And you'll want to train Carrion, whose avoid is not reliable yet (though not bad either).
yarr
She's very likely to be fatigued here so that's okay.
Saphy can just stay at the beginning and maybe Physic if needed. I really doubt you can advance in this map quickly anyway because Saphy is not the only unit who gets raped by these amazing ballistae, so you might be forced to wait out all the bolts or something. The mere possibility to Warp in someone next to one of the ballista makes Saphy's existence here a huge point in her favor though. You may want to save it for other occasions, but it's there.
This is one of the maps where she can use the Torch staff to get EXP and allow other units to see and do other things instead of using one of these 1-use Torches. She can also use Magic Up to protect others from the long range magic assaults.
I haven't even played his route but yeah.
Too bad it might be gone already because there's more occasions when you'll want to use the M Up, like the chapters before this one. It has only 5 uses, y'know. Not having to use it is obviously better than having to use it. Saphy's Warp saving up for that is a point in her favor. If it needs to be Repaired, more points to her.
The difference is that if you don't Warp someone in the middle of the fray, you forfeit nearly all the spoils, while if you do only one or two get stolen. I think I saved them all once with a high build Lifis being in there. Forfeiting Trewd is obviously out of the question unless you want to take 20 turns extra and not forfeit any other recruitment.
Just sit on the throne for 10 Def/30 Avo and you'll be fine. Or just let Lifis steal Sleep. Or the mere fact that you can Warp Leaf to the throne to speed things up helps her case.
Sure, that's annoying stuff, but whenever the Dragon Lance could be used freely (like in the I'm-ganna-split-routes chapter with Ralph) it is so really really wow and Saphy is getting credit for it and Salem is not. I believe you can also attack with it once, then dismount, should you want to Dragon Stab something in ballista range just once.
Eh, if you're going for an A rank you can get a second one in 12x by waiting out the dancer reinforcements, and it'll be paid back later. Whether Saphy uses Repair on Prf weapons or on the Warp staves she uses to decrease turn count does not help you belittle her case, since she can do both. If one is better than the other, then she can always do that, and if they are arguable, she still has the option of both.
@______@ more text Salem is completely relying on that attacking possiblity of his, but that also makes him build up twice the fatigue, so it comes down to about the same. |
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| Former Guest | Mar 29 2008, 05:15 PM Post #5 |
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Snarky casual observations keep these debaets mint fresh and human. 
Staves complimenting offense is a definite force to be reckoned with, and it’s hard to ruin unless you’re Rhys as I mentioned, Cyas, or some other FE magician who happens to suck a dick and like it. Few have access to both 100% of the time. I believe that Saphy has more trouble fulfilling the offense part than Salem, that’s all. Is it the kind to be ditching her for? No, but it’s still trouble.
Thankfully, the FE5 elements are more in balance and don’t fall into this pattern.
Not always, but sometimes being able to beats never here.
Who cares when they can often lack the 2 range to do that since they’re walled off in small enclosures? As if they're even around come enemy phase. Magickal swords/Asvel/Robert ftw.
'Scuse me pardon me, but is this the same dude backing a swing at the SSS rank? Well, as long as it's under 30 turns or you don't go to the gaiden. Without warp, this is all about swallowing your pride, supports and putting several characters at risk getting two-shotted.
- chapter 10 Bolting bishop - the gang by Kempf with Thunder on 11 - Oltof and his Wind mages Ineffective against blocking negative statii. And then you admitted Saphy might not be around on one of those chapters. With Saphy possibly the only one who could use it before the Dakia pit stop, I'd say there's bound to be some charges left.
Except for the offense part, maybe.
1.5x more the fatigue, perhaps, but just attacking tacks less on to fatigue than the bulk of staves. Now, the first half of the breakdown by chapter as promised. The Stronghold: WANTED - mounted units to assist Glade. I won't discuss this one at length because our characters can be easily fatigued from the map before. Still, if they're both stamina p®epped, then I'm pretty sure Salem at least doesn't need to be rescued or given an HP ring for safe measure - he has the freedom to wander with his higher movement into range of a ballista and not get one-shotted. If he can't demonstrate his staff utility on your turn, he can participate in clearing out the mage/armor/soldier rabble, and with standard-issue tomes hold his own against someone like Asvel. He can also get a support here easily in Parn, who's satisfactory at fighting, movement and able to steal more Thunder, vulneraries and excess short bows for sale from the arch knight reinforcements who trickle in from behind, then let others kill 'em. Open Fire: Saphy is ~17/0 and Salem is ~9/0. This map means business. The first to feature a ballista with up to 15(!) range. Also, a baron other than Leidrick who's such a well defended fortress unto himself that there's no point in theorycrafting since I personally don't think he can be approached (no, Dean warp+rescue doesn't count), let alone defeated, within 10 turns. Not surprisingly, this begins like the direct continuation of the previous chapter's climax, Tahra under siege by battalions of armors and Thunder mages. The typical mage at this stage has twentysomething HP, existent magic and ~0-3 AS. The typical weapon armor for a while has late 20s to 30s HP, minimal magic and anywhere from 0-4 AS. In either case, a freak with a little more AS or whatever than that may rear its randomized head on occasion, but that's it. Salem's offense may not start out enough to one-round these enemies consistently, given his magic and AS, but those traits can improve bypassing combat altogether, not to mention it's a problem Asvel without Grafcalibur (thanks to having the same magic as Salem 8 or so levels higher) and the latest recruit Homer also share. Unlike those two, however, he has the option to hang back instead if he wants, help keep others alive and not deprive them of EXP while powering himself up. It's extremely probable he could have a B rank in staves later into the chapter and then a fair shot at taking credit for rescuing Dean on the same turn after he's warped. And then you want to rout as many of the unpromoted reinforcements as you can before the promoted ones show up, so Salem just being able to contribute elevates him above Saphy on that front. Enough of the versatility-from-square-one tuba for a moment. I'll favor Saphy by assuming she's promoted by the time the Thracian NPCs and thugs from Lopt arrive to box you in, see how she compares to Salem then. 20/1 high priest 20 HP, 19 magic, 14-15 skill, 15 speed, 1-2 defense, 10 luck, strength and build can be ignored for obvious reasons Removing Lightning from Homer, adding an HP ring, having Leaf&Nanna in support range, and Finn on the map, we end up with: 27 HP, 28 attack, 142-144 hit, 9 AS, 44-45 critical, 57 (67 on house) evade, 15 critical evade 11-12/0 Salem 25-26 HP, 10 magic, 9 skill, 9-10 speed, 3 defense, 3 luck Armed with Wind and Nanna standing by: 28 effective attack vs. flyers, 128-130 hit, 8-9 AS, 19 critical, about 40 (50 on house) evade, 1 critical evade So, neither should have accuracy woes and I don't think either's double attacking Macroy or his gang, but look at that: Salem 8 or so levels behind can tie her offensively for the most part, and I didn't even figure in the Parn support I could violently argue for. All she's ahead by is twentysomething critical, and a critical lead for the time being lasts all of 20 uses over 10 or so chapters if she wants to exploit it. Defensively between the two it doesn't count as much of a win for her either because the only means the dragon knights have of countering at range is the weakstick javelin (if they happen to have it equipped) with a lulzy 75-80 base hit IIRC. They're just kinda intimidating to our two characters because of their mobility but the smart player will maneuver the army to make first strike and hopefully eliminate them all on one of their phases since they don't like to break formation. Saphy possibly gets to repair personal weapons as always, forms at least one side of the equation that results in dragonspear via warp staff, and can prove superior at fending off the dark mage rush if she's promoted......it would really help on that last point were an opening found to destroy some of the ballistas (in any case, I would hope it was to take heat off all your units). However, Salem is a candidate for forming the other necessary side of said equation and he gets so much more leeway just to attack, not to mention he's guaranteed to be able to do it during the entire chapter on every playthrough. Freedom: A lot of dark mages and pegasus riders lie in wait to ambush you. Both Salem and Saphy can heal whoever gets a chunk of their HP removed by Jormung, and with trading can light the way or strengthen others' magic so a dark mage doesn't crit them to death. Better yet, cast magic up on someone like Karin to fly ahead and brave Codha's deadly Fenrir. Yet Salem is more likely to even be here than Saphy because he didn't fatigue as quickly on the last chapter thanks to not relying on fancy staves as much. Again, an unsupported Saphy has far better odds than a supported Salem/Asvel/Homer/Linoan of one-rounding the dark mages with magic if she's promoted and won't suffer WTD, sure. *cough*meager20usereminder*cough* A pegasus rider could always swoop somewhere out of the fog and capture her in the event she's not or isn't given Lightning. There's no way yet to pay an enemy like that back by capturing them in turn. The Two Paths: Normal difficulty at most. Plenty of forests for cover, lowlives for Salem and Saphy (if she's promoted by now) to one-round and if someone should get hit trying to capture or otherwise, etc. The only enemies that pose any kind of threat here are the warrior leader and the myrmidons with killing edges. If the silver weapon reinforcements didn't shy away from attacking you on their phase, they would count. Moving on. To Lenster: B route presents more of a magickal threat more than A on the chapter 16s, so you could say Saphy is often better for withstanding damage if she's even poised to get hit. A route being the harder trial that it is still cranks up the threat of ballistas for both of its chapters. Quintuplets sandwiched together enveloping Kempf and Brook among other enemies, for your info. If Saphy didn't get that HP ring, she can be promoted, hiding in a forest, and continues to dread the OHKO if she's in range. Lenster's Gate: B route isn't simply easier - less boss ppl, no Cyas, no Lopt, no multiple enemy factions, no roundabout path formidably guarded by ballistas and long range magic, no characters at random getting put to sleep while all of the above is going on, etc. - but is sprawling with more forests to hide in. The Lightning hasn't been aging gracefully and proving it can weather more wear and tear or anything, so Salem maintains a versatility win overall. Lenster's Liberation: Each of our characters has free support chains cut out for them at this point. A promoted Saphy still has to watch her usage of Lightning or keep a lid on attacking altogether. A 15-20/0 Salem is set to one-round most of Gustav's minions, or he can leave offensive concerns to people able to capture or whoever and fill his turn with staff utility, or he can whittle enemy HP down to critical with Jormung to make said capturing more convenient by a landslide if a thief isn't on hand to steal a weapon/tome, and never has to worry about running out of tomes himself. The Empire Strikes: Does it ever. Mass mounts trying to screw you over. Enemy AS values off top of head: Prayer troubadour: ~14 cavalier: ~9 axe knight: ~0-5 lance knight: ~9-12 arch knight: nadirish great knight: ~3-6 mage knight: ~0-7 The hell with confronting Wolf! Against this troublesome horde with 10 movement, a newly promoted Salem with 15 magic and 7-12 AS (Jormung excluded here, natch) has the potential to double attack and one-round a bunch of things on his turn without eating counters often (and those in turn will often suck terribly against him because they're magickal/javelins). In the event he can't reach any for casting or the enemy formation is that tense for comfort, he can heal from afar with physic and fortify for h4x or rewarp himself to anywhere he wishes, like a forest, or a house before a pesky thief/brigand makes it there. Enemies cough up so much EXP when they die that if Salem happens not to have filled out his 15 prepromote level quota at the start yet, then he almost certainly is gonna before everyone retreats. When Saphy's deployed here, she's got 10, 11 AS? and still loses concrete durability. ~40 physical attack is required to OHKO a promoted Salem, early 20s is required to OHKO a promoted Saphy without an HP ring. 'Nuff said. One of either Parn or Sarah, at the very least, is more likely to be fielded here than just possibly little Tina - evasion in Saphy's favor is negligible enough not to matter too much either way, and it will only decrease since Salem, for the umpteenth time, has more leeway to attack than ever and rake in the EXP. To be continued........dundundun. |
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| Mekkah | Aug 10 2008, 06:56 AM Post #6 |
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I could be doing this the long way and answer you point for point, but I think I found a shorter route to victory for Saphy. Saphy just wins this on Warp alone. The only rank that exists is technically some sort of tactics, except there's also a requirement to recruit everyone and keep them alive, but those latter ones are generally assumed sidepoints. What it's all about is making the game shorter somehow. Salem isn't bad at it per se, I would say he speeds things up slightly due to always having 1-2 range, but I could just as easily let someone fight in his stead and 99% of the time nobody would notice. The amount of turns he shortens your quest by might not even need to be expressed in more than one digit. Saphy, however, shaves off huge, huge, huge amounts. Now, for a nice demonstration of how Saphy does this, I happened to come across the videos of a non-Chinese player who managed to SSS-rank the game. ze youtube channel. As you notice, Saphy is absolutely crucial, whereas Salem doesn't really do anything noteworthy (he spams M Up at some point to gain some staff level, but he's nowhere to be seen after that). Saphy turns some maps into 1-2 turn completes thanks to neat rescue tricks, whereas otherwise you would have to walk all the way over there. That could be about ten or twenty turns every time she uses that warp staff. How does Salem weigh up to that? You posted a lot of combat comparisons by chapter, but a lot of that isn't going to happen if you choose to use Saphy and save yourself some trouble. You can effectively split the units in this game into two sorts: combat/healers, and high staff level peoples such as Saphy. The latter sort is obviously much more useful AND there's less of them. Saphy is the only real one until Sleuf/Sarah/Linoan appear, whereas Salem can always be easily replaced, sometimes by units worse than him, often better, at least in some departments. "but i said A-rank" "lol videos are elite mode" I addressed this in my previous post in a pretty long paragraph, but even going along with A-rank: And lowering the bar does not help Salem's case versus Saphy. It becomes 270 turns instead (or 250 and passing up a character), and you get ~9 turns per map instead. Closer to 8 if you go to more than 7 gaidens. That still commands the use of Warp way more often than you can use by replacing Saphy by any other (later-lower-level) staff user. It might not become 100% crucial anymore (though lol at trying it without Saphy...now that's something only a Chinasian could do), but it still saves a shitton of turns to help you reach A-rank in time, maybe give you more backup time to get more items or EXP, or a back-up plan for something. Not much more I can say. In any kind of real ranked FE5, you cannot really beat someone with both Warp and Repair in debate (at least, in my opinion). I think that if we were to do another FE5 debate, it would be better to treat it like FE8 where there's no rankings, so you simply get credit for being cheaper, better at combat, etc (and this is something I might hand Salem a win for). |
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