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| Zihark; Just Curious | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 25 2008, 07:50 PM (1,262 Views) | |
| Blackbird | Feb 26 2008, 08:51 PM Post #16 |
 
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Here we go again. Zihark fanboys always gotta hate. Mia vs Zihark, Round 2, Fight! Personally, I feel like Mia is the best swordsman in Radiant Dawn because she is the easiest to use. Zihark's availability is awkward: You don't get him until halfway into Part 1, and when he joins, he is far overleveled than most people in your party and sucks exp from the Dawn Brigade. Admittedly, some players will just say "The Hell with the Dawn Brigade, I'm going to dump all my exp into my promoted units!" But that might make things harder when the Dawn Brigade returns for Part III, minus the majority of your uber promoted units. After that, you don't get him again until late in Part 3, by which time he will actually be underlevelled, and you will have to do a bit of babying/catchup to get him back to par. Mia will have a level lead on Zihark at this point, because he has been absent for some time. Mia, on the other hand, starts in Part 3 on par level wise, and is one of your better units offensively. She is probably the fastest unit in your group; she doubles the most enemies, and will have at least competitive offense for that reason alone, if not great offense. If her Strength is a little low... give her Adept. She's one of the best candidates to use it, since she is among your fastest units (highest Spd = best activation chance) I've found her strength to be more than adequate though. She kicks ass through the majority of Part 3, and continues to kick ass through Part 4. |
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| Fireman | Feb 26 2008, 09:43 PM Post #17 |
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Lol watever I'll just use both since they turn up with excellent stats anyway
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| scotu | Feb 26 2008, 10:53 PM Post #18 |
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Adept astra vantage cancel is such a good skillset. like, no joke. |
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| Sentenal | Feb 27 2008, 12:45 AM Post #19 |
When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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How does Zihark get considered underleveled BEFORE you merge in Part 4? He had a pretty huge level lead on just about everyone else in the Dawn Brigade, and then by the end Part 3, that is reversed? |
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| smash fanatic | Feb 27 2008, 03:17 AM Post #20 |
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Zihark beats Sothe in fighting pretty quickly. Sothe's better in the DB because of thieving utility, not because of combat. The rest of the units on that list are hardly ever there. They're around for about 3 chapters, and then disappear.
Zihark beats him though, and the gap starts off pretty huge.
You forgot Ulki, Janaff, and Ranulf. Neph's more or less tied with Mia as well.
Earth > Light or Thunder. Nolan has no problems waiting for the Earth affinity. And lol @ Micaiah. You're getting rid of the auto A for a unit who's not even going to be attacking most of the time?
lolwut? He's your BEST fighter in part 3 aside from the BK showing up for half of 3-6. *but he's a laguz* And I have no problems using Olivi Grass to get that fighting h4x. Better than Tarvos Nolan durability + better than Zihark offense, in the team where it really matters = raep. He's not even bad in part 4 due to durability.
No, you give them out based on what the Earth affinity wants. Almost everyone wants to support Earth, so Earth affinities get first dibs on who to support, and if the Earth affinites want each other, the others eat shit.
... so? The other GMs get that too. her performance relative to them doesn't get any better.
He sucks no more EXP than any of the other fighters on the team.
Nolan and Jill are only debatable vs Zihark in part 3, and the other unpromoted units still lose to him.
The problem with that is she also has pretty unimpressive durability. She's almost always 3HKO'd until promotion, and her avo never becomes good since her affinity doesn't give any. And enemies' spd don't grow very fast. It goes up by like 2 points from 3-P to 3-11 (the bridge chapter, where it's generally accepted that part 3 units promote). By the time she gets out of the 3HKO range, almost all of your other units also start doubling consistently, making most of the worth of the spd lead go away. On the other hand, about half the enemies in 3-6 and 3-13 are cats, which means Zihark's spd lead matters as he and Volug are the only ones doubling them (Edward too, but not in 3-6). His HP/def are pretty lame, but he gets massive avo in Nolan, who definitely wants him too, so he dodges them fairly well. He loses to several DBs in defense, but he has one of the best offense, which DOESN'T go away as the DB chapters go on. |
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| Blackbird | Feb 27 2008, 04:06 PM Post #21 |
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Greil's Mercenaries will have a higher level than Zihark if you choose to re-recruit him in Part 3, and possibly some of the more notable Crimeans as well (Haar, Nephenee) Zihark is underleveled compared to all of these people when he returns, and notably, is also underleveled compared to Mia. The catch to making Volug good after Part 1 is to get that Wildheart halfshift crap as far away from him as possible once Part 3 rolls around. You'll have to chew like some kind of grass addict, but this isn't really any worse than Beorc units, which use up weapon charges with every attack. After that, he's a pretty good unit, well balanced with attack and defense, especially if he's supported (I believe he has the excellent earth affinity?) |
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| Sentenal | Feb 27 2008, 04:46 PM Post #22 |
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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Except its crazy to recruit him into the Greil Mercenaries, so he has a level LEAD over everyone till part 4. And then in Part 4, he is still Tier 3, so its not like he is preforming badly. And compared to everyone else in the Dawn Brigade, he is still at a higher level. He would be like, what, 3 or 4 levels lower than most of the Mercs in Part 4? |
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| scotu | Feb 27 2008, 09:11 PM Post #23 |
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Sothe is not bad at combat in the least compared to Zihark. guess what, Zihark's only arround for like, 4 chapters in part 1. In part one is where Zihark does any outperforming of the other DB units. In All of his chapters, he's out shadowed by better, more useful units.
... Maybe? Aran promotes when? like 1-2 chapters after zihark arrives? He's still good enough to frontline.
Ulki yes. Janaff and Ranulf not so much. They gain shit exp and have on par performance when transformed, and have to waste turns to shift back. Not to mention you've got to take precautions to prevent mid-turn unshiftings. Nephenee's alright.
Yeah, but Nolan's not a selfish bastard. He'll spread the love to make your other units better. i just thought of the micaiah thing right before i posted that, i never really considered it or thought it through. but why not? She does attack a fair amount of the time. She'll OHKO every mounted/ armored unit, and she has pretty bad durability, why not give her +30 avo, and give nolan +2 atk on top of it?
again with the grass usage. That makes him eat up valuable turns that nolan, aran, micaiah, and jill all infinitely and 1/2 outperforming him (infinite and 1/2 because not only is he not doing anything, he's eating up supplies, and being a weakling you'll have to defend). Volug sucks after part 1.
No. You don't. You give them out based on what the team wants. The team doesn't want to eat shit. why only make two units good, when you can make 4 units good? You'll always get no less than equal amounts of avo out of splitting them up, but you might get more, than just supporting earth x earth. earth x earth is one of the worst supports you can give because it's pretty much way better to give earth supports to as many as you can. As you've said, many people want an earth support, so why are you going to group the earths together and have as few of those as possible get that support? On any given team, about maybe 4 units want that +23 avo, often it's those with the earth support (in this case, both nolan and zihark would like +23 avo). Well, aran, Jill, Eddie, maybe Micaiah would like it too. You could support most of them with an earth x non-earth, and they'd all benefit from it. Instead of just giving it to nolan and zihark, Nolan, Zihark, Aran, and one other could all benefit from +23 avo, why not let them?
No, but Zihark doesn't get this kind of benefit, yet another gap between Mia + Zihark.
He sucks significantly more than some others on the team. But in terms of Exp, he does gain significantly less than say, Eddie, Nolan, Aran, Micaiah, Jill, and Illyana until they promote.
No. Nolan is way more useful than Zihark in part 1. First, he's arround for a lot more. Second, he'll promote and be on competitive grounds with Zihark before the end of part 1. Compared to the enemies of part 1, Nolan still delivers rape, while being durable. This is the same thing that Zihark can say, so he's still competing with Zihark. As for Jill, Jill's offense starts off a bit worse, but she's got good durability (compared to what the enemies are doing). In addition, she also has the massive flyer utility over Zihark. In just the chapter that they both join, Jill is the only one able to deal with the pegasus knights the turn that they arrive. After a few levels, she becomes a double attacking axe(wo)man that is dealing massive damage, so she's competing with Zihark (in terms of offense) even before she promotes. In part 3, what unpromoted units are you using? All your units that you're using should be promoted by then.
Her durability is in no way unimpressive. It may take 3 hits to kill her, but she's never going to be hit 3 times in one turn anyway. Her avo is always sufficient enough to keep enemy hits low, due to her high speed, reasonable luck, authority bonuses, and terrain. In terms of her affinity, hers doesn't give avo, but there is a certain commander who's does. Per discussion earlier, Earth should not be supported by earth. Enemy hit chances on Mia typically never get higher than 30. If you give her support with Ike, that hit chance drops to negligible. It'll also help Ike out in giving him Hit (he will need it against Ashera). She's got plenty of durability.
except that spd also helps out avo, and skill activation rates. The fact alone that she'll double all enemies, when many of your other "godly" GM's don't, says something about her compared to her team when she starts. When Zihark starts out doubling when most of your other units don't, it's because they're unpromoted.
Edward should have NO problem doubling cats in 3-6. Volug will only do so if you waste turns grassing. Jill and Aran may also double. In either case, Jill's still putting out more damage, esp w/ beastfoe. A beasfoe'd Jill is WAY too good. |
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| Beta-Knight | Feb 27 2008, 10:37 PM Post #24 |
whatever
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...So Ulki doesn't? Did Ulki get Formshift when I wasn't looking or something? Srsly, if Janaff had Vigilance, he'd prolly be better than Ulki. He's basically like Ulki with lower Avo but higher Str and Def, and he starts out more powerful, able to one-round things more consistantly. Olvi Grass takes turns to use? Sounds like a small price to pay for a fighter ten times as wtfh4x as anyone else, which those four definitely are. And with this game's gauge system, you can have them untransform when they're not being used in order to conserve points, meaning it doesn't have to even be used that much- a few times per chapter, but not much more. And how is Olvi Grass any more of a "supply" than the weapons that Jill and Nolan "eat up"? Laguz are so underrated in this game. 
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Formerly Dark Beta, Falaflame. Beta-Kraid or just Beta on other forums
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| scotu | Feb 28 2008, 01:27 AM Post #25 |
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Laguz non-royals in this game blow. They all start at 0 gauge. Ulki's only reasonable since he has wtfh4x avo comparatively. Volug eat's olivi grass while Jill and Nolan aren't eating their weapons because he's sitting there doing nothing except having to be protected while he's eating it. Jill and Nolan are out killing shit. Sure, they're eating up more when volug's transformed, but they're killing shit 24/7. Laguz are over rated imo. No unit should just have to sit there and have completely useless turns while others have to cover their backs. Another reason they suck is because they'll have lower mov when unshifted, and they start unshifted, so they're guaranteed to have one turn on that lower mov, royals included. One more thing. Every Laguz has a weakness. Birds actually have 2. conclusion: Laguz BLOW. That is all. |
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| smash fanatic | Feb 28 2008, 02:02 AM Post #26 |
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Zihark's better at fighting than he is. "Sothe is not bad" doesn't mean Sothe's better.
Part 6 is long enough to count as two separate chapters. "better, more useful" units? Like who? Edward? Leo? rofl
Aran doesn't promote until the end of part 1, dude. And so what if he's "still good enough"? Zihark's doing better than him. Or, I list about 10 other GMs who are still "good enough", making Mia look worse in comparison. It's up to you.
What? No, Nolan wants Earth more than anything else. Earth affinity will help push him into the untouchable zone.
Micaiah's avo will still suck, and Nolan wants Earth over Dark, and Sothe also loses his support, so this support isn't ever happening.
You make it seem like every DB beorc is a god that can be attacking every turn. no, sorry, that's nowhere near the case. Being able to do anything you want doesn't matter if you aren't strong enough to do it. Jill can't take on more than 2 enemies at once, Micaiah can't even take 1, and Aran has fail offense. What, are you going to send them out and watch them die/fail at attacking? This is about how ridiculous your argument is. "Rofls Fiona doesn't need to eat Olivi grass, she has player phase freedom" Except of course she can't do anything on player phase without dying anyway, so it doesn't matter at all. Jill isn't to the same extreme, but she still can't fly off and do whatever she wants because she'll die. The part 3 DB chapters are all defend or pseudo defend chapters anyway. You arne't going to run off and kill stuff. There's no problem with just having Volug sit in place and eat Olivi grass. And how is Volug eating more supplies than your beorcs? Weapons cost more money than Olivi Grass.
Because the one with the earth affinity wants it. No matter who the Earth affinity supports, that unit will be taking an Earth affinity away from the team. The only way to not be biased is to give out the support based on who the Earth affinity wants to support. And Aran, Edward, and Micaiah aren't reaching avo levels that will make them invulnerable, and Nolan ends up losing out too because he also won't have infinite durability, so why the hell should I bother supporting the two together? Edward's usually not even played anyway, Aran doesn't need avo anyway, and Micaiah isn't getting rid of the Sothe support, unless you want to hurt the team. Jill gets Volug. That leaves Nolan and Zihark free for each other.
You may as well have the two fight ahgainst each other. That's about how relevant this is. "Mia is stronger than Zihark" doesn't even matter until part 4 because the two don't coexist until then, and they won't be competing each other for a spot on the team until then.
Zihark gets a kill. No one else on the team can get that kill. Edward gets a kill. No one else on the team can get that kill. The only benefit that Edward has getting the kill over Zihark is that his level goes up faster, which is already reflected in comparisons. Edward still loses anyway.
... no, Nolan is not raping enemies. He can't double until he promotes, and that's still only the slowest enemies.
In part 1, flying is only truly useful in 1-6-2, where you have to rush and save Fiona's dumb ass. The other chapters she's in are indoors. -2 move for her. Jill doesn't double until she almost promotes. What's this "after a few levels"? 6 or 7 levels aren't "a few".
I was talking about Leo, Edward, Micaiah, Laura, etc. Units that start off unpromoted.
rofl. Enemies have 40-50 hit on her, AFTER Ike's authority bonus. Those that don't are axes, but they kill her in 2 instead of 3, so that's still pretty bad. And terrain? Rofl. I may as well pretend Mia's always at worst biorhythm.
Ashera is lol1 boss, which you 4-turn anyway. Sorry, that's not enough to convince Ike to support Mia.
Avo doesn't matter because Mia's avo is not turning heads at all, unless you think having a 6+% chance of dying after just 3 attacks is somehow good. Speaking of which, her avo growth after she caps spd, which is like 3 or 4 levels, drops to 35%, and it only starts at about 90 when enemies have 130+ hit. rofls. Impressive avo, indeed. Skill activation? whoamg, adept's got a 6% greater chance of going off.
So you weren't paying attention after all. By the time she gets out of the 3HKO range, almost all of your other units also start doubling consistently, making most of the worth of the spd lead go away. It's either she has bad durability but the spd matters, or her durability doesn't suck but the spd doesn't matter.
So what? It doesn't change the fact that they're not doubling.
The cats have 22 spd. Edward doesn't hit 26 spd until 20/10, and Jill's spd cap is 25. rofl. Let's be serious here. and WTF @ Aran doubling. The second slowest guy on the team is doubling cats? lol. Try "Aran GETS doubled by cats".
So I guess healers and herons are useless according to you, then? They don't do anything on enemy phase, which is WORSE than what laguz are doing, and they aren't always doing something on player phase because it sometimes may be too dangerous for them to go out, which is no different than laguz needing to use Olivi Grass, and they also have bad mobility. The herons also have the same laguz problems you mentioned. lol. Let's be realistic here. |
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| Blackbird | Feb 28 2008, 04:44 AM Post #27 |
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I've already raised the issues with availability. Zihark is only around for half of Part 1, 2 missions in 3, and Mia and Zihark have equal representation in 4. Mia, meanwhile, kicks it with Ike during the entirety of the lengthy Part 3. She starts on par levelwise, and is one of the better offensive units on your team. She's getting a spot. Zihark, meanwhile, is awkward in Part 1. He is overleveled, so most enemies grant him little experience in return. He would gain 1 level at best to every 5 or so Nolan, Ed, Aran, or Micaiah would get out of killing the same enemies. Making more units much more useful faster > making Zihark only a little more useful very slowly. Zihark is again awkward in Part 3. You can either keep him with the Dawn Brigade, and only get two missions to gain further levels (and fall farther behind the Greil Mercenaries' level lead), or re-recruit him to the Greil Mercenaries, at which time he will be very underleveled compared to your other units and require a lot of babying to catch up. In my game, he was on the order of 10 levels behind Mia at the opportunity to re-recruit him. Going into Part 4, Mia is likely to retain a level lead because she has far more chapters to level in Part 3 than Zihark, and therefore is likely to maintain a level lead for the whole game. Mia's level and availability are greater than Zihark's. She exists more than Zihark, making her more useful throughout the game. Growths and Bases comparison: Zihark, lv 3 Swordmaster 30 HP, 17 Str, 6 Mag, 22 Skl, 23 Spd, 11 Luk, 13 Def, 11 Res 55% Hp, 35% Str, 10% Mag, 75% Skl, 70% Spd, 40% Luk, 25% Def, 35% Res. Mia, lv 7 Swordmaster 34 HP, 17 Str, 5 Mag, 26 Skl, 28 Spd, 18 Luk, 13, Def, 8 Res 70% Hp, 45% Str, 15% Mag, 60% Skl, 65% Spd, 35% Luk, 40% Def, 25% Res. Lets compare them. Offense: Both have the same Strength base to begin with. However, Mia's growth is a full 10% higher than Zihark's. They may begin at the same place, but as the game progresses, Mia's strength can only widen the gap between the characters, in her favor. Zihark's offense is better? I call BS. Zihark is just fighting wussier enemies than the ones found in the Greil campaign. Zihark's Skill and Speed growths are higher than Mia's, but that doesn't matter, because Mia will cap both of those stats very quickly anyway thanks to her extremely high bases, putting her in position for bonus exp utilization sooner (increasing the offense gap in her favor again, etc...). Zihark will cap the stats as well, but it will take him a few more levels because his bases are lower. Mia is faster to begin with, meaning she is doubling more enemies sooner than Zihark. From a practical standpoint, it doesn't really matter; both characters are swordmasters, and will have the best chance of anyone short of bird royals to be doubling anyone and everyone. Mia's still stronger than Zihark, so her doubles hurt more. Zihark starts with Adept, which increases his offense, but Mia begins with Vantage, which gives her first strike. The skills are about on par with each other; Vantage allows you to kill enemies with counters, while adept helps kill on your turn. Mia's activation chance for Skill and Speed based skills will likely be better than Zihark's for a long time, thanks to her higher bases and level lead. She is also one of the best candidates for an Adept scroll of her own, having the highest speed of the units in the Greil Mercs. Defense: Mia starts with base 34 HP, and Zihark 30. Mia's HP growth is 70%, while Zihark's is 55%. Mia begins with more hit points, and will always have more hit points than Zihark. She can soak more hits than he can. Defense and Res: Both begin with 13 Defense, but Mia's growth rate is significantly better again. 40% to Zihark's 25%. She will mitigate more physical damage than Zihark. Zihark wins in base Res and growth Res, but this is less important because swordmasters have a low Res cap and are likely to take high damage from a mage (if they hit) no matter how good their res is. Mia's much better HP gives her a better safety net for mage hits. Avoidance: Mia will have similar or better base avoid than Zihark, having a lead in Spd and Luk which will be maintained for a long time, because Mia's level and availability > Zihark's. Zihark's Luk and Spd growths are a whopping 5% better, but Mia's bases are 7 and 5 points higher, respectively, and Mia will maintain a level lead on Zihark for the whole game, meaning Zihark's chance to catch up is all but nonexistant. Mia also pals around with Ike, who grants an authority bonus for her avoid and hit during Part 3. Micaiah has no such authority bonus (She had no stars as of part 4 in my game, can you confirm her authority in other parts of the game?) Vantage lets Mia kill weakened enemies before they can attack her (some of the time). Supports: The big catch is Zihark's Earth affinity. Hax dodge bonus. Mia, on the other hand, has Fire affinity, which increases attack and accuracy. In other words, offense. So, Mia's strength is better, her supports give better offensive stats, and she is doubling swordmasters and other fast oppenents before Zihark because her speed base is higher. Mia's offense > Zihark's. Period. |
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| scotu | Feb 28 2008, 11:15 PM Post #28 |
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Sothe does better than Zihark for more of part 1, and does on par with him towards the end of the part.
Then you have Tauroneo for 2 chapters too. Better more useful units = Jill, Tormod, Maurim, Micaiah, Nolan, Nailah, the Black Knight. You're argument for them "being around only for an insufficient amount of time while Zihark's around for forever lol" is a load of shit, because, He starts in a chapter where Jill is more useful (peg knights, Fiona), Tauroneo is the one with huge level leads that is outshadowing everyone, not Zihark, Micaiah is OHKOing all the generals (which there are a lot of, esp w/ reinforcements). Then every chapter after that, you gain additional rape units that are all better/ more useful than Zihark.
Your units start promoting either in the prison level or the swamp level, and the rest promote in the Final.
Nolan already has H4x avo for someone who can take hits anyway (w/ an A support w/ a no-avo affinity). Let him give 23 avo to someone else to put them into the untouchable zone.
lolno? Micaiah's luk growth is huge, and caps at 40. She ramcaps mag luk and res in part 4, so she'll be a good use of bexp to rase her spd. W/ an A from Nolan, she'll be pretty hard to hit anyway before that. (in 1-9, enemies had hits on her ranging from 30-40, if she had a Nolan, that would be in the untouchable zone).
uh... that's retarded. Beorc can be attacking every turn. They can do it. If your good units are dying or whatever, you playing horribly. Jill has way more durability than you give credit for. She has moderate avo, good def/ res/ hp. Micaiah shouldn't be taking hits anyway, but she usually can take an attack from one enemy and live, the only problem is if she get's hit twice in one turn. Aran, by part 3, should only be at about a loss of about 3 atk to zihark (putting him about 2-3 levels behind, and lances having higher mt than swords). That's not fail offense, especially considering the defense that Aran provides. And to point out how rediculous your argument is: you're saying that Laguz are better because they can't do anything while unshifted, but beorc can't do anything either during their phases that they can attack (which is a total load of bull).
I never said anything about fielding Fiona. She may not be able to "fly off and do whatever", but she can fly off, attack someone, and fly back to hold a defensive perimeter. Zihark cannot.
You're not going to run off and kill shit? Actually, 2 of their 3 chapters are run off and kill a specific amount of shit. Using grass requires that they sit back and eat grass. Beorc on the other hand can go off and kill shit and gain more exp on defend chapters. This game only has two real modes: rout, and rout faster.
What are you, Stupid? You're being "un-biased" by... biasing your earths together, and giving them priority over others for support. Wow. No. Your team has a limited number of earth supports, do yourself a favor, and maximize the benefit you get from them, and spread them out. You're completely biasing your supports if you're saying "Earths get to support whoever they want and they all want earth". No. The unbiased way to look at it is from an objective standpoint. How do we get the most benefit from x # of earths? The answer is to have the most people supported by them, to maximize the # of +23 avos. Having two units with +45 avo is kind of nice. Only for them. I'd rather have 4 units with either +23 or +30 avo, so that more of my units are untouchable. Having 4 units that have say a 10% chance of being hit >>> than having 2 units that have a 0% of being hit, and 2 units that have a 41% of being hit.
Aran, Edward, and Micaiah can all reach levels of avo that make them very durable with an Earth support. Nolan can take several hits even without any avo bonuses. Give him +23/ +30 avo, and he'll also start dodging things pretty well too. you don't need to give him +45 avo to make him invulnerable, +23/ +30 is perfectly fine. Edward gets played some. He's mid tier, so we won't count him out on usage. Aran w/ +30 avo on top of his pretty good def means he'll be taking significantly less hits, and he'll be invulnerable (at least really close). About the Micaiah support, Sothe x Micaiah isn't a very good support, they play completely opposite roles, that frequently have them going opposite directions. Micaiah, can heal, and can attack from behind a frontliner, so she's doing pretty nicely standing behind nolan/ zihark. Jill gets Volug? That's quite presumptuous. I'd rather support Jill x Zihark to have full WTA.
On the contrary, It means that Mia has more avo in her part than Zihark has in his. Mia's strength means that she's dealing more damage to the enemies she's fighting than Zihark is.
This isn't "reflected in comparison" or whatever. If Zihark gets a kill, and gains a few points of exp, and someone else can get that kill instead, and gain a bunch of EXP, that means their level will rise faster, and they'll start gaining stat ups faster. Having stat ups faster is always good.
Nolan Wrecks shit. If he doesn't double, he's dealing massive damage in one swing. Even if he doesn't one round it, He's also durable enough to defend on the enemy phase, and then finish it off.
Flying is also useful in dealing w/ the Peg knights in 1-6-1, and going up the ledges in 1-F.
First off, look what you're saying: "I was talking about ..., Micaiah,..., etc. Units that start off unpromoted." Micaiah can't be anything but promoted come part 3. Leo sucks and shouldn't be fielded. Laura doesn't need to be dealing damage, just repairing damage done to you (although my friend has a laura that deals WAY more damage than his zihark and was promoted level 8 before part 3). Miciaiah's still promoted, and OHKOing armors and horses.
lolno. enemies don't have reasonable hit on Mia in her part as i'll go into later.
But the fact that It means that Mia's never going to be hit again is a pretty good reason. Mia's helping Ike out in the end is just one example.
After she caps spd/ skill/ hp, she's in one of the best places in the GMs to recieve BEXP, meaning she's close to promotion. 2nd off, enemy hit doesn't rise all that much during part 3 anyway, it goes from around 120 in like 3-p to about 150 in 3-F. I'm just going off your #s here: 90 base avo vs 130 hit +15 avo from authority stars 105 avo vs 130 hit +10 terrain bonus (there's a bunch, not using them is a waste) 115 avo vs 130 hit +8 avo from a non-earth affinity 123 avo vs 130 hit. lol 7 hit. Say she's at her worst biorythym, that's still only 17 hit. At her best, she can't be hit at all. In fact, if you take away terrain and give her her worst biorythm, but give her that earth support, you end up with 118 avo vs 130 hit = 12. She's still not getting hit. Go you and your awesome examples.
On the contrary, He speed lead always matters because she always has concrete durability, she always doubles, and she always activates her skills frequently.
Aran + Jill double tigers. I'm pretty sure I've seen Edward double cats in 3-6. I don't really recall though, since i've never actually used him. Edward still delivers win w/ his Caladboulg regardless of his doubling or not.
No. Herons and Healers are good. They perform different functions than combat Laguz. Healers keep your units alive. Herons make your units kick more ass. Combat Laguz have all the same usage problems that healers and herons have while unshifted, while only delivering what your other combat beorc can without that detriment. To clarify my point: As you've said, Unshifted combat laguz, healers, and herons have similar problems of using enemy phase and being vulnerable. Healers provide durability to your units. Herons let your combat units combat twice/ make them fight better (bliss). Combat laguz fight. Guess what combat beorc do? they fight too. At a pretty similar level of fighting too. Except that they don't have the issues that unshifted laguz do. Here's the catch: Combat beorc do the same thing, except they can do it right from the start, while combat laguz take time being vulnerable before they can start doing the same thing. |
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| smash fanatic | Feb 29 2008, 03:54 AM Post #29 |
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*the Mia vs Zihark comparison Most of it is meaningless because the two don't even meet up until part 4, and by then like anyone can rape the enemies, so no one cares about that. Th point is that Zihark's helping the DB in their chapters more than Mia is helping the GMs in theirs.
3 Sothe 35.6 HP, 19.2 str, 4.4 mag, 21.6 skl, 20.9 spd, 16.3 lck, 14.4 def, 9.6 res 3 Zihark 30 HP, 17 str, 6 mag, 22 skl, 23 spd, 11 lck, 13 def, 11 res The two have similar att (Sothe wins by like 1 or something, and that's if Micaiah is in range, which isn't always the case because she has crappy durability), and Sothe has a bit more HP/def/avo vs Zihark's adept. Considering Zihark starts building the Nolan support, Sothe winning combat doesn't last very long at all.
Tauroneo, Muarim, Tormod, Nailah, and the BK are only around for 2-3 chapters when Zihark's around for about 8. w1n over 8 chapters >>> w1n over 2-3. And of course, you're not completing chapters with only 1 or 2 units. Even when all the rape units are around, Zihark's still the 4th or so best fighter, which is much better than what Mia claims (10th or so for her, and those rape units in the GMs stay around the entire time), and when those rape units disappear, he jumps to 2nd, maybe 3rd.
... And your point is? How does this make Aran promote earlier? level 7 in the middle of 1-2 means he promotes relatively late.
... no, h4x avo means you're giving out 20 or less hit rates vs the enemies. Nolan doesn't even come close to that without another Earth, especially since Micaiah has no authority stars.
I'm talking about the DB chapters, not part 4. And... Micaiah's not giving out 30-40 hit rates. Even with capped spd and +lck for every single level up, her avo will only be about 70, and enemies have ~110 hit. Then 1-E has Jarod with his 3 authority stars for +15 hit, and then 3-6 and 3-13 are high hit laguz. Not good for someone who likes getting one-rounded.
... no, in 3-6, she gets 2-shotted by tigers or gets very close to that, and 3-shotted by cats she doesn't double. In 3-13, like 3 cats + a hawk or 2 tigers + a hawk can kill her. And the laguz have about 50 hit on her. I wouldn't rely on her dodging them at all. Most things in part 1 3HKO her as well. Yeah. Jill has flying, but she can't be attacking every turn. minus 33-50% of your HP after one attack isn't that good.
... no, she's OHKO'd by a lot of things until 1-6, or like she gets RNG screwed in HP or def by 1 point and gets into trouble, and myrmidons always double and one-round her. Cats also double and one-round her, and tigers also come close to one-shotting her.
Except Aran doesn't double until part 4.
... so you didn't understand it at all. Jill cannot go off and attack on every player phase because she can get raped. There'll be plenty of times where Jill just sits in her spot holding the position.
What does Zihark have to do with Volug? Jill can fly off and attack something, but she won't kill it so it'll run off and she won't get the kill so nothing changes anyway. Unless, she uses a 1 range weapon, in which case she takes a counter, and then flies back to formation at less than full HP, which is worse than Volug sitting around eating Olivi Grasses because at least Volug won't die on the enemy phase, and she still may not kill it anyway.
3-6 is a laguz swarm, where everyone except Volug dies in 2-3 attacks. lol, you wanna run off and get raped? 3-12, the enemies COME to you, and there's like 100 of them, so you don't want to jump into the middle of the mob.
... no, enemies actually have hit in this game. You're usually looking at 60 or so hit before avo supports or authority stars (and Micaiah unfortunately has no stars). I would rather dump two earths together for +45 avo and make the others go for +def supports than spread the earths around and still have everyone face high hits.
20/1 edward, A Nolan.... 81 avo. The guys in 1-E have 120+ hit, and he's usually 3HKO'd (some still kill him in 2). It's about 32 real hit. He still has over a 3% chance of dying after 3 attacks (about 10% after 4). Not very good at all. And the 3-6 laguz have 130+ hit. lol 50 hit, AFTER an earth support? massive suck. And he's the dodgiest of the three you mentioned.
I would dump him in lower mid, actually, so no, I don't see him being fielded often. What's so good about him anyway? Part 4 rape? who cares? Anyone that's not shit like Astrid can rape part 4.
By the time his avo with an earth support reaches any sort of reliable amount, he's not dying anyway. His problem isn't durability.
... huh? Why would they go in oppsite directiosn? And what happened to Sothe? you're going to let him rot? But I thought you advocated him as a good unit. Double standards, much?
... And having better bases is always good too, which is what Zihark has over a lot of the other DB.
again, Nolan being good =/= Nolan raping the enemies. That's Sothe in the early DB chapters, or the BK/Nailah.
Pegs are overrated. Only shitty or frail units are scared of them, and Jill can't take on more than 2 or so at a time anyway becuase they all come at different parts of the map.
... Do you even READ what I'm saying. When I said "promoted units", I was merely referring to the units that start unpromoted. I did not say they were still unpromoted.
And she's not as useful as Zihark.
2 of the part 3 chapters are purely laguz. What's she OHKOing in there?
Or I let Ike support a different person and let that person get good avo.
... it's 90 AFTER authority stars. I already factored that in. And... no, enemies' hit are in the 130s at 3-P, not 120. As for terrain, you go ahead and pretend she's always on one. I'll pretend she's always at lowest biorhythm and the enemies are at highest. lolrofl.
... no, Aran is not doubling tigers. You need 20 spd for that. He doesn't get that until past 20/10.
That's impossible. Edward's not 20/10 entering 3-6.
Except the good fighting laguz are killing stuff your normal beorcs can't. Volug, for example, one-rounds cats in 3-6 with 100% success provided he has S strike (which isn't hard at all; it's 70 attacks to go from A to S, and he doubles almost everything so that's like 35 rounds of combat, and he has ~6 chapters to raise his rank before 3-6, and he rapes so you'd have to be an idiot to not use him). Zihark needs a crit or adept, neither of which are 100%, and no one else is doubling or one-rounding short of beastfoe. And Volug is 5HKO'd by them, as opposed to most of the other DBs being 3HKO'd. He doesn't one-round tigers, but he has the most att of any DB unit short of Tarvos Nolan, who might not be doubling them anyway, and beast killer Sothe, and they 4HKO him when most of the DB get 2HKO'd. I'm easily eating Olivi Grass to get this combat rape. |
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| Blackbird | Feb 29 2008, 04:21 PM Post #30 |
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This argument is completely invalid. A comparison between units in Part 4 is perfectly justified. I think the reason for this is self-evident. You say everyone can kill units equally well in Part 4? Well, let me just pull out Fiona, Meg, and Lyre for the final part! They'll cut through enemies just as well as anyone else, right? ...No. Units in Part 4 have the same strengths and weaknesses they've had for the previous parts of the game. That isn't going to magically change. Just because you've reached Part 4, doesn't mean someone turns on the "rape switch" and all your bottom tier units suddenly become just as good at killing as everyone else. You can still compare units against each other, only now you can directly say "Yes, character A is cutting his way though more enemies than character B!" Mia is a better choice than Zihark in Part 4 because she has a level lead on him and is better offensively. Their defense will be similar. Zihark has an avo lead because of his earth support; but Mia will have better speed to mitigate this lead, has more hit points, and better defense. |
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