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| Assisted Suicide | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 28 2008, 10:50 AM (514 Views) | |
| Kogepan | Feb 28 2008, 10:50 AM Post #1 |
 
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Assisted suicide is defined as actively doing something to cause anothers death (assuming the other is willing.) Withholding medication would not be an example, however, providing them with an overdose would. There was a case where an elderly man suffered from cancer. He pleaded with his wife to end his life- for he had lived a long life and did not want to suffer anymore. His wife finally broke down and agreed to give him poison. Later she was charged- how should she be charged and sentanced? Another case is of an attempted suicide. He had shot himself in the face, but failed to sever his brain stem or hit his hind lobes. Beacause his frontal lobe was gone, every memory and personality trait that made him human was gone. He didn't even have a face. The hospital had to find a way to end this mans life. They opted on withholding antibiotics in order to let him die of infection. While this is not assisted suicide, had they been allowed to kill him in a different fashion, they may have been able to harvest his organs in order to save others lives. I ask you this, should assisted suicide be legal or not? If so, is it legal in all cases or for medical professionals only. (PS: Seeing as I have to write a paper against it, please feel free to disagree with each other and get some agruments going^.^) |
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| Yzarc | Feb 28 2008, 11:52 AM Post #2 |
Coxian
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That, in my opinion. I think it should be a somewhat difficult process to qualify for assisted suicide, otherwise we'd have crazy people or depressed people goin' at it. Obviously, you'd have to have medical professionals decide whether or not suicide would be "right" in any given situation. I think it's dumb that it's illegal. There are worse things than death and, more importantly, who is it hurting? The guy who wants to die. Granted, there are people who think they want to die when they really don't, and you'd have to weed those people out, but there are just certain situations where that isn't the case. |
  
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| +Hollie | Feb 28 2008, 03:54 PM Post #3 |
Resident Brit
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If it gets to the point where the person has no quality of life and suffers, then I think assisted suicide should be an option, if the person wants it. Or, if they aren't in a fit state of mind, it should be left up to family members and medical proffesionals. Personally, I'd like to hang on pretty much as long as I can, but I know some people wouldn't want to. |
Known as Haar on Brand of Flame. Bitch.  Formerly Margaret Thatcher, Aleksandr | |
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| +Punishment Divine | Feb 28 2008, 04:02 PM Post #4 |
Get Raped
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But whose right is it to decide this? I am against this in most cases, even if it is more humane to do so. If you make it legal, you open the door to a number of problems. For one, like you said, people who are depressed or crazy will want to die. Second, I feel as though there will be doctors who use this right falsely and hand these people death when they aren't TRULY suffering. Third, this leaves hospitals open to getting sued by family, friends, etc. I also feel this is just unethical. Leaving it up to a doctor to decide is making that doctor God. I just don't feel as though anyone who isn't God should decide who lives or dies. |
I walk the Earth another day The wicked one that comes this way Savior to my own, devil to some Mankind falls, something wicked comes Forged in the sacred flames On the sixth day Of the sixth month In the sixth hour ~Iced Earth, Something Wicked 3: The Coming Curse | |
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| Yzarc | Feb 28 2008, 04:49 PM Post #5 |
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Coxian
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Ideally, it would be both the doctor and the patient who decide, not just the doctor. As for "playing God" I find I really couldn't give any less a shit. Religion shouldn't exist in hospitals. If medical doctors aren't allowed to decide who lives or dies, then they shouldn't exist. Their purpose is, essentially, to keep people alive, right? God and science don't go hand in hand, so don't put them together, please. Thanks.
Which is why we have various doctors (including psychiatrists) determine whether or not they are going through enough pain.
Why would you assume something like that? I could just as well say "We should stop all surgery because sometimes surgeons make mistakes."
That's up to the hospital. Making it legal doesn't mean forcing hospitals to do it. |
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| +Punishment Divine | Feb 28 2008, 05:35 PM Post #6 |
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Get Raped
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Keyword: I I feel it's unethical, therefore I would not support it. You may not give a shit, but I do.
See below
Because who is to say what is substantiative enough top kill the patient? If a surgeon makes a mistake during surgery, this is just an outright accident and any doctor can make it. However, opinions differ between doctors. Who's to say one doctor wouldn't find someone who's depressed worthy enough to get some kind of lethal injection. I understand it would probably go through several doctors, but I still see problems happening here.
At which point I doubt hospitals would even want to do this. If the risk of getting sued is high, which I feel it would be in this circumstance, a hospital would not want to be sued and therefore would not want the program. I just feel that a lot of time and effort would have to go into this. It just wouldn't get done and just wouldn't be properly carried out if they did enact it. |
I walk the Earth another day The wicked one that comes this way Savior to my own, devil to some Mankind falls, something wicked comes Forged in the sacred flames On the sixth day Of the sixth month In the sixth hour ~Iced Earth, Something Wicked 3: The Coming Curse | |
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| Crysta | Feb 28 2008, 05:40 PM Post #7 |
yay for conformity!
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Eh, I'm staying away from this one because it's a beacon for the self-righteous, but I'll add this -- My grandmother had to bury two of her children and she "pulled the plug" on both of them. I don't think she was playing God. |
~ Crysta, Zombie Queen
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| Yzarc | Feb 28 2008, 06:19 PM Post #8 |
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Coxian
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So don't commit suicide (or get a doctor to help you) when you're in a perpetual state of pain. But don't "play God" and tell other people they can't.
A doctor. Not just some dude.
It's not about depression. It's about pain. When I brought up depression, I was talking about something that psychiatrists would look for to make sure that the person wanting death ISN'T. If it's some kid who's girlfriend broke up with him, obviously no doctor would allow that. But if it's an 80 year old guy who can't wipe his own ass that doesn't want to live anymore, I think he should be allowed to make that decision. |
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| Simon | Feb 28 2008, 06:21 PM Post #9 |
The strongest among you may not wear a crown
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My thoughts in a nutshell, because if I start writing in detail I doubt I'll stop: Assisted suicide should only be administered to those who are in immense physical pain and have little hope of recovery or have lost body parts that will have a severe effect on the continuation of their lives. Instead of trying to continue to elaborate on this, I'll list scenarios discussed so far and work with those. Example 1: The example of an old man suffering in pain of cancer. Unless the cancer is benign/malignant but hasn't spread to a major body part (eg, cancer in one finger), the man has little chance of winning the race against time to save his life...and so, in this case, since he's going to die either way, make it quick and assist him in receiving a dignified death. Example 2: The example of a person who, whether by his/her own intention, the intention of another, or on accident, lost brain functions or multiple appendages or some other similar life-altering injury. In this case, if s/he request an end to the pain of existing in such an undignified, horrid state, how can someone deny him/her? Example 3: The example of a psychotic, mentally insane, or emotionally unstable person. If the only thing that's putting him/her through pain is his/her irrationality about the situation -- for instance, a kid wanting suicide because he lost his girlfriend and "can't live without her" -- facepalm and tell him/her to get a grip and realize that s/he doesn't have it half as bad as s/he thinks, to pick him/herself up out of the self-inflicted wretched existence s/he leads, and actively try to make things better. No assistance. ((If there are extreme examples, then exceptions can be made; if, for instance, there's a distinct possibility that this person will go on a shooting spree and kill him/herself in that manner, better for him/her to die without taking others to the gates of heaven or hell, but there better damn well be definite evidence that this scenario would happen.)) I'm fairly certain almost all the possible scenarios fall under here. If there's something obvious I missed, feel free to pop me over the head and bring them up, and I'll think about it and add it in here. |
Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
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| Shinobi | Feb 29 2008, 02:11 AM Post #10 |
絶望した！！！
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the only reason (to me) that i can see them making assisted suicede a crime, it prevent poeple to use it as an excuss to get away with murder. but other than that, you cannot make a law based on the assumtion that the victum had a good chance to live. because the circumstances can be so varried, so should the punishment (if it were to be a crime) you cant take someone seriously when they say "somebody shoot me!!!" but if a major law is passed, that can become illegal just to say. but if you are helping to end suffering, i think it is o.k. |
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| Soja | Feb 29 2008, 05:06 AM Post #11 |
Gentle Water, Crashing Waves
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Pulling the plug is much different from actively ending someone's life at their request. People who are completely dependent on machines for every vital function and don't even have visible consciousness are typically the ones whose plug is pulled. Oftentimes they are in a state of brain death, where not even the brain stem is functioning anymore. This is left up to the next of kin, or those with power of attorney over the individual. Assisted suicides are the ones who arrange their deaths through a mutual agreement with their doctor. In countries where assisted suicide is legal, the typical chemical cocktail used is the same one utilized in lethal injection executions; first is an anesthetic to put the "victim" out, and soon after that follows a lethal dose of potassium chloride, which induces a massive heart attack almost instantly. This is different than pulling the plug because the individual makes all the arrangements personally. They also usually still retain full power over themselves. Slightly off topic, here in TN there is currently a moratorium on public executions because of allegations that the process for lethal injection does indeed cause excruciating pain. Obviously there is no way to know firsthand, and no way to find out without breaking a few vital tenets of this country's federal law. I personally am loath to the idea of assisted suicide. If people want to kill themselves, that's their business. They can do it on their time on their dollar. I don't think a doctor should be obligated to help them end their own lives. I see it as taking the short road. I'll be morbid; we're all going to die. Every one of us. Knowing that, we could save ourselves a lot of money, time, and effort by just killing ourselves. Right now. Everyone. It doesn't take a terminal illness to see that. Maybe it's because I am inherently a fighter, but I can't sympathize with people that want to cut their lives short because they have cancer or what have you. Maybe it's because, to me, that reeks of giving up rather than striving to overcome in spite of the odds. I don't know. I guess I won't unless I wind up in that boat, eh? But physicians should only heal; never kill, even at request. And to the topic starter's question: the wife should probably be charged with involuntary manslaughter. She was "emotionally coerced" into ending her husband's life by he himself. Given her emotional state and the situation, the sentence would probably be light. |
Fusion Universe - FEF Fanfic Slayers Forth - Slayers Fanfic Smartest Member '06 & '07 & '08 & 'o9, Favored Debater '07 & '08 & '09, Most Popular '08, Manliest '08 & '09, Author of Nightmares, Scourge of the Luxon, Rules Lawyer, Nick's Former Hero, Crysta's Lover | |
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| Simon | Feb 29 2008, 10:08 PM Post #12 |
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The strongest among you may not wear a crown
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Now, hold on...there's a big difference between this quote (where I assume -- perhaps falsely -- that you read and felt that the statement I quoted was worth saying) and what you're saying:
Cancer is a seriously debilitating disease. You don't need me to tell you that one cannot hope to live a normal, fairly peaceful existence with malignant cancer. The person goes through intense pain for the rest of their lives. Now, back to us. You imply that assisting a person with a fatal, painful disease in a quick, painless death is just cause for a perfectly healthy person with happy days ahead to blow his/her brains out. That's a completely illogical stretch. You and I, we're healthy, "normal" (in the sense that neither of us has a lethal medical debilitation) people. We have plenty of years ahead of us to live and enjoy life. These people that want doctors to help them die...they have no such hope. They're in such a state that they can never recover, and a "good day" is no doubt judged solely by the amount of pain they live with each day. For such people, lives such as ours are merely a dream, a depressing mirage of normalcy. I don't want to put a personal spin on this, but nothing challenges the mind like placing yourself in the situation. Right now (I assume), you're healthy -- no cancer, no random heart attacks, nothing of that sort -- and have no medical reason (or, heck, any reason at all) to kill yourself. Now, imagine yourself, ten years from now. The doctors predict this is your last year of life. You're in pain everyday, and the greatest pain of all -- the only pain sharper than the excruciating physical pain you undergo everyday because of your illness -- is that, just ten years ago, you could aspire to great things, had your whole life ahead of you. Now, you're in a hospital room, fighting the battle of your life, for your life, everyday, with no light at the end of the tunnel. It's people in these situations -- the ones whose finest days have passed them by, who lie on cots enduring pain harsher than any torture humans could devise, for whom even the best memories of life fill them with sadness as they know it's over, that there's nothing left -- that I would not mind being allowed to have assisted suicide as an option. To sum up that example (since most of the people reading would probably post tl;dr if this were any other forum), the people receiving assisted suicide are far different from you and I, and to say that we should all kill ourselves because we're all gonna die anyway -- much in the same way that supporters of assisted suicide claim that such people should be allowed to receive assisted suicide because the person to be killed is gonna die anyway -- is not the same scenario at all. If it were, would that justify murder? They're gonna die anyway, after all... That's the problem I see with equating the everyday individual without life-threatening illness to the terminally-ill cancer victim with regards to suicide. |
Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
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| Soja | Mar 1 2008, 12:58 AM Post #13 |
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves
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I stand by my comment. It was not in reference to yours, either. It is simply a utilitarian viewpoint in its most brutal purity: we're all going to die sooner or later, so better sooner than later. You could justify murder that way, actually. You could justify a lot of things that way. But carrying on like that wouldn't be human... would it? I was an ex-suicidal once. There was a point in my life where I didn't care anymore, because things were out of my hands. Except for one thing, that is. My life. I could take that if I wanted, I thought. I almost did. I then felt, with the aid of a certain someone, that things would get better. That there was hope yet. And so here I am today. Doctoral diagnosis is not a perfect art. The prognosis that they give terminally ill patients is an opinion at most. Professional, but still an opinion open to mistakes and errors. I don't think that people should have their doctors end their lives based on an opinion. Furthermore, the kind of depression that comes with terminal illness, as you stated, is nothing different from that that those with middle to severe depression feel. That there is no hope, no way out, that there is no purpose, no reason. The difference is that they are ill. Like I said, I won't know how it is unless I find myself in that boat. But if I do, I don't think I will be craving death. Rather, I fancy that I'll make it hard for Death to take me. |
Fusion Universe - FEF Fanfic Slayers Forth - Slayers Fanfic Smartest Member '06 & '07 & '08 & 'o9, Favored Debater '07 & '08 & '09, Most Popular '08, Manliest '08 & '09, Author of Nightmares, Scourge of the Luxon, Rules Lawyer, Nick's Former Hero, Crysta's Lover | |
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| Yzarc | Mar 1 2008, 09:09 AM Post #14 |
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Coxian
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The thing is, I'm mainly arguing for its uses in the elderly. The people that are so old, they can't do anything without being in pain. They're not gonna get healthy all of a sudden, they're never gonna get significantly better. I say if those people want to say "fuck it" and end it now in as dignified a fashion as taking some sort of shot, then who are we to say "Sorry, that's illegal." Still, it would be the doctor's call, so there's that. But yeah, I don't think it should be allowed for young folk. Unless it's agreed upon that every moment of their life is in absolute physical pain and all the doctors agree that they're not gonna get better, but even then I'm hesitant. People say things they don't mean when bad things are happening to them, just like you thought you wanted to die at one point. To that point, I'll agree with you. But I see no reason for forcing old people who don't want to live to live anymore. |
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| Crysta | Mar 1 2008, 06:54 PM Post #15 |
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yay for conformity!
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You don't need a prognosis to know when someone's suffering. My aunt had Lou Gherigs disease and she wasn't that old. And she wasn't depressed; she went to the arcade with us just a month or two prior. And I know the doctors aren't always right because my late grandmother lived several years longer than anyone expected her to. But... death comes when it should, and it's not an easy decision or short road for anyone involved. |
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~ Crysta, Zombie Queen
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