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| Mekkah vs Tino; Colm vs Seth | |
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| Topic Started: Jun 8 2008, 06:24 AM (99 Views) | |
| Mekkah | Jun 8 2008, 06:24 AM Post #1 |
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Colm fights. Seth fights. Colm can see further in Fog of War, open chests, and most importantly, steal. Seth...can only rescue. Winner: Colm I mean, look at the stuff Colm gets you, leaving out bullshit like Vulnerary and Antitoxin (stolen from some other debate) Ch3: Hand Axe, Javelin, Iron Sword, Iron Lance, Pure Water Ch7: Energy Ring Ch8: Silver Sword, Angelic Robe, Elysian Whip, Lockpick Eirika route: Ch11: Restore, Short Spear, Secret Book Ch14: Guiding Ring, Spear, Hammerne, Swordreaver, Dragonspear, Energy Ring Ephraim route: Ch9: Restore, 2500G, Ocean Seal Ch13: Energy Ring Ch14: Guiding Ring, Halberd, Hammerne, Angelic Robe, Spear Reunion: Ch15: Warp, Body Ring, Silence, Wyrmslayer, Killer Bow, Swiftsole, Eclipse, Metis Tome, Silver Card, Elixir Ch16: Tomahawk, Talisman, Knight Crest, 5000G, Lockpick, Elixir (2x), Red Gem Ch17: Elixir Ch19: Runesword, Fenrir, Speedwing, Fortify, 5000G, Bolting, Lockpick (3x), Godess Icon Ch21: Angelic Robe, Master Seal Rape. "Rennac and Door/Chest Keys!!!!!" Yes, there are alternate options to some of these, though there's never enough keys in a chapter for all Doors and Chests, and they clog up inventories, so it's easily a worse alternative. Colm's Lockpick only takes up one slot, and after promoting to Rogue he doesn't need it at all. Rennac is obviously a combat failure unlike Colm, and is also only available from 14 and on, and he doesn't give off support bonuses like Colm does. And those are very few alternatives compared to how many other people we can make fight in Seth's stead. And combat is Seth's only lead, and then only during the first half of the game or so, which is easier than the latter half, and also has less relevance due to smaller maps and less enemies. The second half is pretty arguable. Like: 31 Paladin Seth w/ A Franz/B Eirika - S lances 24.0 atk, 16.5 AS, 20.5 crit Killer Lance: 34.0 atk, 16.5 AS, 129.5 hit, 55.5 crit Killing Edge: 33.0 atk, 16.5 AS, 129.5 hit, 50.5 crit Defense: 60.5 avo, 39.0 hp, 20.0 def, 16.0 res 31 Rogue Colm w/ A Neimi/B Moulder - S swords 21.1 atk, 26.3 AS, 27.9 crit Killing Edge: 30.1 atk, 26.3 AS, 142.4 hit, 62.9 crit Defense: 85.2 avo, 41.0 hp, 15.0 def, 11.6 res Colm obviously wins offense. He has about 10 more Spd, so even if he's weilding a weapon that weighs him down he beats Seth's Con lead. He can double Swordmasters, Heroes, Rangers and those annoying fast monster dogs whereas Seth cannot, and fast enemies are the most dangerous. That >>> 3-4 Atk lead, and then there's also Colm's slight Crt lead to consider, which easily cancels out Seth's situational weapon triangle advantage. Defensively, Seth has 5 Def and 4 Res against Colm's 25 Avo and 2HP. 25 Avo is damn huge in a 2-RN system. A 100 hit enemy has 15 displayed hit on Colm, which is 4.65% real. Same enemy has 40 displayed hit on Seth, which is 32% real. Seth is like 7-8 times as likely to get hit. Rape. That easily beats Seth's slight concrete win in defenses, and then Colm has HP on top of it. Again you may bring up weapon triangle, but that can be used against him on enemy phase where he cannot switch, and it doesn't work on 99% of the monsters, so it's pretty lol overall. combat + rescue + 2 mov <<<<<< combat + steal + FOW + chestpick can be replaced by nearly everyone <<<<< can be replaced by Rennac |
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| Tino | Jun 9 2008, 08:38 AM Post #2 |
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Seth fights much better, than Colm, though. Seth can move in front of the party to increase your overall vision without risking to die out there. Seth also can move again after rescuing, opening a chest or something else and he also has much better weapon triangle control than Colm. They’re at least equal utility-wise, but I think that Seth, with his much better fighting, wins this.
It’s not like anybody is going to care about those weapons, though. Sure, you get them for free, but they’re still not so useful that they give Colm an extra edge. For the other items, sure.
You don’t need more than two or three weapons per battle anyway. That means one or two keys are not going to make a big difference, if even a difference at all. Sure, there are many fighters. In fact, every character except for Tethys can fight. However, almost nobody can replace Seth’s incredible fighting. I mean, there is no use in replacing Seth for a worse fighter.
Couple of issues here.
I have no idea what chapter this is you are talking about, but if Colm is level 31, Seth should be around 35 or 36 or something. 35 Seth w/ A Franz/B Eirika, Killer Lance/Killing Edge 36.0 Att, 18.3 AS, 56.5 Crit - - 42.6 HP, 65.6 Avoid, 21.6 Def, 17.2 Res 35.0 Att, 18.3 AS, 51.5 Crit - - 42.6 HP, 65.6 Avoid, 21.6 Def, 17.2 Res 31 Colm w/ B Moulder, Killing Edge 27.1 Att, 26.3 Att, 47.9 Crit - - 41.0 HP, 77.7 Avoid, 13.5 Def, 10.1 Res Now that’s a pretty massive rape. Seth has a huge Att lead and also a small Crit lead. Durability, well, they both don’t really die, but Colm, if hit, takes way more damage. And with his WTC, Seth makes up for his loss in Avoid. Colm with his stealing and stuff, can’t make up for this massive combat rape. Plus, Seth has his great movement and canto to back himself up a bit. Bleh. Not my best, but still… |
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| Mekkah | Jun 9 2008, 10:23 AM Post #3 |
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Early on, yes. And combat is Seth's only lead, and then only during the first half of the game or so, which is easier than the latter half, and also has less relevance due to smaller maps and less enemies.
Colm gives more vision out of attacking range than Seth does in the middle of the fray. Colm with a Torch allows you to see like a 14 tiles radius. Plus, when Colm does that, he doesn't lure in enemies.
Rescuing sucks for utility. It costs the rescued unit a turn, and you remove it from the field, so it cannot do anything. It also cuts into Seth's offense himself. It's not even a net positive. One chapter's worth of Colm's thief utility takes care of it. Moving after? That might be significant if it weren't GBA FE. The most common action is attacking, and you cannot move after that. And again, it's not really "utility". It's just a bit more movement. It's of no significant help to the team...I mean lol, who cares if Seth can move 1-2 extra spaces in a chest room?
Altogether it saves about 1800G (the gold you would pay if you were to buy them), or it nets you 900G (if you don't need these and you decide to sell them). It's a reasonable lead, and Seth has no answer to it. The other items...are a huge ass lead. It's the reason why Colm is a God tier. And you conceded it.
Every door or chest requires one key, and the slot doesn't get freed up, since the treasure takes its place. So to open your basic chest room, you need two spots already. Seth, for an example, already needs a minimum of two slots to even be able to use "weapon triangle control". Add a Javelin, and he's full. Javelins have only 20 uses, so you can expect them to break often, so carrying a spare might be needed. Then there's a shitton of stronger or slayer weapons he might want to carry. Same goes for about anyone. The further you advance in the game, the lower use weapons you're gonna use (from Iron to Steel to Killer, then Silver and S-rank, and then add ranged, slayer, reaver, misc things such as Hoplon Guard/Delphi Shield, multiple weapon types...). It's definitely going to get in the way.
The mere fact that Seth can be replaced by about everyone as a fighter is bad enough. Then, lots and lots of them are about even, if not better than Seth during the later part of the game. Even early on, Seth is replacable as a fighter. It is in fact desirable to replace Seth as a fighter from time to time, because he is not solo'ing the fighting, which would be a huge detriment to your efficiency. Colm's thieving is obligatory. There is not enough Chest/Door Keys in the game to fulfill what he does for you. Between Ch3 and Ch14 Eirika/Ch15 Ephraim, no one else can steal. No one else can get you the Energy Ring from the Mage in Ch7, for example. And then Rennac blows dick, and cannot steal from something like an 18 Spd Thief in Ch16. Colm can replace Seth for fighting, and not be inferior for half the game. In fact, nearly everyone can. Seth cannot replace Colm for thieving. No one can replace Colm for thieving until 14/15, and the only one who can after that is inferior. It's clear Colm is the winner at this.
Seth has an initial level lead, but he gains EXP much slower. Colm doesn't gain EXP a bit faster, but by a lot, because his class gets an EXP bonus. When he goes Assassin, it goes :a lot: faster, because every OHKO kill gets him double EXP. If Seth has a lead at all by endgame, I expect it to be more like 1-2 levels.
Mid tiers are average, so for the purposes of debates, can be assumed to be in play maybe 50% of the time. But Colm is in play, and gives her by far her best A support (in fact, these two have the fastest support in the game), so that makes her much better and thus more likely to be played. Garcia, Gilliam and Arthur all like a Neimi support too, because everyone loves Fire affinity supports, so those are more of a pull factor. And Neimi is pretty hax with supports in play. Only unit who uses an Orion's Bolt, so she can promote whenever the hell she want. She's extremely valuable in Last Hope, with like 80 avo counting supports, and like 50 Crt with Killer weapons. Or even Neimi is not there, Kyle exists. So your comparison with Colm only having B Moulder would only flow like, 1% of the time. I can play the same game back to you. Why would Seth have B Eirika always? Eirika sux 50% of the time due to Ephraim route, where she comes back pretty underleveled, and Seth's other options are meh at best and might not even want him. If you're gonna do a comparison biasing Seth in supports and level you better at least put a reasonable explanation for it. Some final nitpicking:
No, not at all. It's 15% in a best case scenario, which only works against swords and axes. That's already a minority of enemies to begin with, considering lances (the most common weapon type), bows and magic. Then, it is most relevant on player phase, which is less significant than enemy phase, where the AI is in control instead of you. And then this game is for a huge part monsters, which have mostly monster-type weapons and Dark magic. So no, it doesn't make up for Colm's Avo win at all.
He doesn't have Canto (moving after anything), this is not FE10. It's moving after shit you hardly ever do. Movement he has, but it's a small sidepoint. Colm gets you the Warp staff and the Rescue staff, which increase other people's movement, and not just other people's, so it helps the team's mobility to a huge extent as well. Colm's superior Fog of War vision allows you to move further as well without bumping into enemies and losing your turn. So in the end combat + rescue + 2 mov <<<<<< combat + steal + FOW + chestpick can be replaced by nearly everyone <<<<< can be replaced by Rennac |
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11:51 AM Nov 27
