| Welcome to Fire Emblem Fusion. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Mekkah vs CATS; Neimi vs Joshua | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Jun 23 2008, 09:47 AM (275 Views) | |
| Mekkah | Jun 23 2008, 09:47 AM Post #1 |
|
Neimi has pink hair. Her promoted class is Ranger. Logic dictates that Neimi is actually the Pink Power Ranger, disguised as a crybaby in FE8 as to not give away her identity. Until today, this has not been discovered. Joshua gives himself away as Prince of Jehnna after Ch14. Winner: Neimi. That's not her only win though. Neimi also has much better attacking range. Joshua is locked to 1-range forever, Neimi is locked to 2-range before promotion. That alone is better. Neimi can attack enemies from eight different places around them, Joshua only from four, giving her the versatility of standing next to support partners and out of other enemy range. She can attack enemies that are 7 spaces away, while Joshua can only attack those that are 6 spaces away. And this works in a radius around them. Then, the majority of enemies in this game have either 2-range or 1-2 range (there's more of those than 1-range, obviously). Neimi always counters 2-range and can be positioned so that she counters 1-2 range. Joshua never counters 2-range, and can never be positioned so that he counters 1-2 range. In addition, Neimi is easier to put behind a frontline of walls than Joshua is, since there's only 4 squares where she can be attacked from without countering, while there is eight for Joshua. Finally, Neimi counters enemy Longbows and can even be positioned so that she counters the dangerous Stone spell, and gets a horse upon promotion that allows her to attack from 9 squares away with a sword, 10 squares with a bow and 11 with a Longbow. Supports. Colm is pretty much always in play and it's the fastest support in the game, so she gets that. Garcia is Mid, and she ties the support in speed with Seth while Ross beats her, so she is very likely getting that, especially since Neimi/Garcia is Fire/Fire. Gilliam has no trouble filling up, but since Neimi helps him on his weak point (offense and avo), it's not out of the world that he wants her. Amelia is garbage, but if she's in play, she'll take her. Joshua has Natasha in the bag, but from there it gets difficult. Innes blows and is slow (and half the time, extremely late due to Eph route), so he's counted out. L'Arachel blows as well. Marisa blows. Leaves us Gerik, who is again late half the time due to Ephraim route. They also both support Arthur, and if Arthur is given the choice, he'll take Neimi. Faster, starts a chapter earlier and better bonuses. Which brings me to affinities: Joshua is Wind, which is basically Neimi's Fire minus Avo plus Crt Avo, so it pretty much blows cock. 4/6 of his entire support list is Ice, giving them full Hit and Crt Avo, the worst two bonuses. Neimi has the second best, arguably the best affinity (at least the best offensive one). This means that when people choose between Neimi and someone else (with all other variables equal), they'll take Neimi, while if people need to choose between Joshua and someone else, they'll often take someone else. Demonstrated perfectly by Arthur, who takes Neimi's full Avo over Joshua's half. And he doesn't have room for both, because of Lute being his A. Joshua is likely to go with only Natasha for his A while waiting for Gerik for his B, and that support hardly even benefits Natasha, because she cannot attack before promotion and she has no business taking hits from anything. Promotion. Neimi is the only person who can use an Orion's Bolt, so she never has trouble promoting, and can promote before 20 if she so desires to get access to swords earlier, S-rank bows earlier, and generally rape enemies earlier with her promotion bonuses. Joshua shares a Hero Crest with Gerik, Marisa, Ross and Garcia. No matter how you slice it, he's worse off than Neimi here. On Eirika route, you only get one Hero Crest before Ch14, and that's also the route where Gerik happens to be good, so Joshua is bound to get in the way for promotion here. Add the possibilities of Garcia, Ross or even Marisa in play, and it becomes worse. On Ephraim route, he's better off. With all of the above in mind, Neimi doesn't even have to win combat to claim a win over Joshua. But for a quick glance: 20/1 Neimi - A Colm, B Garcia 20.0 atk, 18.9 AS, 65.8 hit, 33.3 crit - - 68.8 avo, 30.0 hp, 10.0 def, 13.0 res, 14.0 critavo 20/1 Joshua - A Natasha, B Arthur 17.2 atk, 19.9 AS, 69.9 hit, 36.6 crit - - 63.3 avo, 41.0 hp, 12.0 def, 8.0 res, 36.5 critavo 3 Atk vs 1 AS, 4 Hit and 3.3 Crt? Doing 6 more damage per double > all that. Neimi wins offense. Joshua wins defense on raw stats (5.5 Avo, 11 HP, 2 Def, 22.5 CEV), however, Neimi takes much much less counters. In addition to this, Neimi gets better weaponry. Nobody else mains bows except Innes, and he sucks. This means goodies such as Killer/Brave/Silver Bow and indeed Nidhogg are pretty much hers for taking - indeed, she's adding the offense of that to the team, as it's highly likely you would not have had them otherwise. The list of other units that can use good swords is much larger: Seth, Franz, Kyle, Forde, Eirika, Gerik and Colm, for one. There's more units who can use swords and will probably reach C at least, such as Falco Tana/Vanessa, Gilliam, Hero Ross, Hero Garcia and even Neimi herself. Menawhile, the only other units who can even weild bows are Warrior Garcia, Ranger Gerik and Warrior Ross, and the Warriors are inferior promotion paths due to the lack of Spd gain upon promotion, which these units so desperately need. more good supports + better affinity + benefitting support partners more + better combat + better attacking range + better weapons + no promo issues > hat |
 |
 
|
| C475_1337 | Jun 23 2008, 01:48 PM Post #2 |
One serious d00d
|
The Pink Power Ranger > Joshua? How old are you? 10, maybe? Nah, prolly closer to 7 or 8. Most pplz stop watching that show by the time they’re 10. If not sooner.
2-range is not better than 1-range at all. “neimi have 8 square to attack from josh only have 4 neimi r winnar” Except that Neimi doesn’t have enough move to reach all of those 8 spaces anyway. If they’re both 3 spaces away from an enemy, each has 3 available spaces to attack it from. “neimi can reach 1 tile farther away” That matters as often as units are using the full extent of their movement ranges, which is to say, very rarely. Josh counters it with higher hit or some other meaningless little thing of his own. The disadvantage, which you conveniently failed to mention, is that Neimi’s both unable to counter and is a magnet to melee enemies. She either has to be positioned and/or protected so that these enemies can’t reach her, or you suffer the consequences of those enemies getting free hits in on her. It’s hurting either her flexibility or her combat record, and both of those are hurting your efficiency. I guess it’s a small mercy that she gets to pick her poison, atleast. Joshua suffers the same thing against bow enemies, but his problem is miniscule compared to Neimi’s for two reasons: first, half the team shares it, and second, by my initial count, there’s roughly 15 times more melee enemies in the game than bow enemies.
I don’t know why you’re posting false facts right off the bat. Again, looking at all the enemies recorded on this site, I count 389 melee, 117 1-2 range, 26 2 range, and 3 2-3 range. And I doubt that the trend violently reverses for the section of the game that isn’t recorded. The 1-2 range aren’t helping Neimi’s case anyway; both she and Joshua have blind spots that they can exploit, and both she and Joshua can be positioned to counter them. It’s slightly easier to do so for Neimi, since doing it with Josh requires placement of other units/enemies or impassable terrain, whereas Neimi only requires herself to be positioned in a certain area, but that’s an insignificant advantage considering how often you’re going to have them countering these enemies in the first place. Don’t pretend that you’re going to spend 3 or 4 turns luring 1-2 range enemies out with Neimi instead of just sending in Lute and nuking them all in 1 phase. And again, Joshua has a small counterattack in the form of the Light Brand, which gives him (yes, very limited, but still better than nothing) some possibility of obtaining 1-2 range himself.
Um, I can put Joshua behind walls just as easily as Neimi, should it be necessary. No, he won’t counter anything from back there, but it’s doubtful that the things which can reach Neimi will attack her either. “I can hide better than you!” isn’t exactly a boasting point.
I’d imagine Colm’s quite possibly *not* in play, myself. During the early chapters, sure, as he remains a competent fighter during that time. Once his Spd becomes overkill, though, his combat abilities become maybe mid-tier-ish, so that’s the end of any benefit for Neimi from the support. In order for her to receive the bonuses, you’d have to field Colm, when instead you could’ve fielded a stronger fighter, so that cancels any benefit Neimi might get from the bonuses. “but colm need for steal” Except that there’s barely anything worth stealing, and even when there is, fielding a better combatant for that chapter is still going to be atleast as beneficial as stealing whatever it is you’re going after. Outside of stealing things, Natasha and Moulder armed with Torch Staffs and Chest Keys fulfill the role of Thief perfectly, without wasting any combat slots. Even if Colm is fielded, at this point it would be primarily to achieve that one thief objective, so he may easily find himself separated from Neimi.
Yes, Garcia is Mid, so that support isn’t helping for the same that Colm isn’t. Gilliam is the same. In reality Neimi doesn’t have any net benefits from her supports at all, except Artur, who is indeed atleast hightier. Joshua, on the other hand, has a toptier unit who takes an A with him in the form of Natasha. He’s also got Artur like Neimi does, but he’s got Eir Route Gerik, aswell. So he’s quite abit better off here.
You can’t dictate who Artur takes nearly that easily. First of all, consider that Joshua and Neimi do not necessarily have to be played together, and probably aren’t going to be, in which case Artur does indeed have room for whichever one is used. Second of all, Lute won’t be Artur’s A if that’s not the optimal setup for the entire team. The player does his best to ensure that his team is fully supported, and if that means putting Lute with a combo of Ross/Kyle/Vanessa so Artur has room for both Neimi and Joshua, he’ll do it. I’d think it’s most realistic and least biased to assume that both will get B Artur in the event that they’re played.
Garcia, Ross and Marisa won’t be used if their play creates promotion issues. Obviously it’d be better to use someone else who doesn’t. Yes, you only get 1 Crest before Ch. 14 on Eir Route, and you get a second in Ch. 14, and units generally promote around Ch. 14 or 15, so that’s not any kind of point against Joshua. Neimi’s situation is the opposite; she’s the only one with her promo item. And as a result, this actually creates problems for her, unlike Joshua. Consider that were Neimi not in play, you’d simply be selling that Bolt for 5K, whereas if Joshua weren’t in play, his Crest would likely be going to Garcia, Ross or Marisa anyway. Her promo item also requires special effort in order to obtain; it adds a new objective that requires you to change your tactics in order to achieve. In effect, it has a restricting effect on how you can play Ch. 6. Similar to the way that Neimi’s inability to counter melee may restrict your tactics, as you have the objective of covering her ass to worry about on top of all the other things you’re already trying to do (kill as many enemies as possible, position units as best as possible for supports, terrain, etc., distribute Exp as efficiently as possible, etc.). If you don’t play Neimi, on the other hand, then you don’t have to worry about this.
Or vice versa. But, it even gets better. When they join: 5 Neimi (C Colm): 6.8 Att, 8.4 Spd—19.2 Hp, 3.6 Def, 3.4 Res, 24.8 Avo 5 Joshua: 8 Att, 14 Spd—24 Hp, 5 Def, 2 Res, 35 Avo raep Now, you might point out that this is just one chapter. And you’d be right. But what’s significant about this particular point in time is that Joshua gets a headstart on his Exp gains thanks to being initially superior in combat. He’s better on both offense and defense, and perhaps more importantly than either one, can actually generate Exp through counters on the enemy phase. He’s on the same level, so he has the same gains and priority, but with superior combat, he’ll get more kills and combat rounds in general, if played naturally. Ofcourse, it isn’t a large lead that he develops, since lower gains and priority take effect once he’s on the higher level. But it is indeed there.
How about more than a superficial glance: From Ch. 5 through maybe 10: 5 Neimi (C Colm): 6.8 Att, 8.4 Spd—19.2 Hp, 3.6 Def, 3.4 Res, 24.8 Avo 15 Neimi (A Colm, B Artur): 14.3 Att, 14.4 Spd—24.7 Hp, 7.1 Def, 8.9 Res, 56.8 Avo Average: 10.55 Att, 11.4 Spd—21.95 Hp, 5.35 Def, 6.15 Res, 40.8 Avo 5 Joshua: 8 Att, 14 Spd—24 Hp, 5 Def, 2 Res, 35 Avo 17 Joshua (B Natasha, C Artur): 13.2 Att, 19.6 Spd—33.6 Hp, 8.4 Def, 5.4 Res, 58 Avo Average: 10.6 Att, 16.8 Spd—28.8 Hp, 6.7 Def, 3.7 Res, 46.5 Avo 2.45 Res vs 0.05 Att, 5.4 Spd, 6.85 Hp, 1.35 Def, 5.7 Avo, Superior flexibility After this point, Colm starts to taper off. I won’t bother covering the rest of the time from here til promotion; I’ll just say that it’s a significant loss for Neimi. Then after promotion: 21 Joshua (A Natasha, B Artur): 17.2 Att, 19.9 Spd—41 Hp, 12 Def, 8 Res, 63.3 Avo 32 Joshua (A Natasha, B Artur): 21.1 Att, 25.9 Spd—49.8 Hp, 14.2 Def, 10.2 Res, 78.6 Avo Average: 19.15 Att, 22.9 Spd—45.4 Hp, 13.1 Def, 9.1 Res, 70.95 Avo 17/1 Neimi (B Artur): 14.2 Att, 16.6 Spd—27.8 Hp, 9.4 Def, 11.6 Res, 55.2 Avo 17/10 Neimi (B Artur): 18.2 Att, 21.9 Spd—32.8 Hp, 10.7 Def, 14.7 Res, 70.3 Avo Average: 16.2 Att, 19.25 Spd—30.3 Hp, 10.05 Def, 13.15 Res, 62.75 Avo 4.05 Res vs 3.05 Att, 3.65 Spd, 15.1 Hp, 3.05 Def, 8.2 Avo I do give Neimi credit for still managing to average a few points higher Res, but meh. |
|
For a glimpse into the Wonderful World of FEW, click here! Link leads to the best topic ever! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9819cZZ6Nw...related&search= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVH2i6nvjsM&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAooq7e0gg0 http://youtube.com/watch?v=t6ETt94q2os http://youtube.com/watch?v=hSVNbxjdvv8 BEST SITE EVER: http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index...ARGIN_MAH_LAZER | |
|
|
|
| Mekkah | Jul 6 2008, 08:12 AM Post #3 |
|
Since quote tags have turned on me again, I decided to use code ones. This should suit your imaginative all_your_base voice.
If I'm 10 years old and debating FE like this, I don't really have maturity issues, do I? But yes, Pink Power Ranger > Joshua. Go out on the streets and ask them if they know who Joshua of Jehanna is, and who Pink Power Ranger is. Or, if you prefer, show them pics and ask them to name them. It's clear that PPR has more street credz than Joshua.
And they are always 3 spaces away from the enemy? You didn't even present an argument about why that would even be the case most of the time. I like how you picked one of the two possibilities that ties Joshua's amount of possibilities with Neimi's. spaces away = unit x, unit y 1 = Neimi 8, Joshua 4 2 = Neimi 8, Joshua 4 3 = Neimi 3, Joshua 3 4 = Neimi 3, Joshua 1 5 = Neimi 1, Joshua 1 6 = Neimi 1, Joshua 0 And with Longbow, this win remains, it just adds 12 possible squares around the enemy. Of course, she would only be using Longbow when its statistical drawbacks are not an issue, but those situations happen, and it's better than nothing (which is what Joshua can do at 3-range).
It matters anytime there's an enemy at 6 squares away, I don't know where you get the idea that that is equivalent to having higher Hit on accurate units such as Joshua and Neimi (if this were Bartre vs Eliwood or FE6 or something, maybe). Interestingly, units do move at their full move potential pretty often, especially once midgame picks up and coolbeans like Franz start one-rounding enemies on enemy phase. And if they're not moving their full potential, they are quite possibly blocked by enemies, which means Neimi has something to attack more often than Joshua does (since your units are occupying a space in front of the enemy, quite possibly the closest to the rest of your team).
You are guilty of the same thing, just with Natasha, who is apparently "top tier". Except Natasha has it even worse, since she never counters, not even ranged enemies. Either way, if you aren't using Natasha, you are probably using Moulder, if only because of
But also because healers are hax (adding durability, seperate EXP pool, etc...I doubt I will need to elaborate further, but if you want to argue that all of a sudden Neimi's team does not have a healer, go ahead). Which means you are already obligated to protecting a PC. When such is a given, the burden of protecting Neimi is extremely light, most of the time even not noticed, since you were already protecting enemies from accessing any spaces around your healer. 4 spaces next to your healer + 8 at 2-range of them is already 12 (yes, even if all your other units have 1-range equipped, the enemy will prioritize on your healer for their inherent lower HP/Def), and Neimi pretty much adds 0 to those if you place her next to the healer. And Lute and Arthur also need protection early on, since they can often be exposed to a max of one, two enemies at this point, so it becomes even more of a non-issue.
Only Eirika, Marisa and unpromoted Gerik share Joshua's lock to 1-range, all others do have access to 2-range. With lesser stats, yes, but they are there, and you will be equipping them when facing a multitude of 2-range enemies, because obviously doing damage on enemy phase > not doing so. If I want to efficiently do this, I'd have to withdraw Joshua and anyone else with his problem completely, because they will priotize on him when given the choice. The fact that half his team shares a problem does not make it less of a problem for Joshua - if I have a whole bundle of PCs I can send to counter 1-range enemies reliably, but only a few who have good 2-range, I will take the 2-ranger (heh, excuse the pun). Despite the majority of enemies apparently being 1-range, it's the ones with range that are more dangerous (for the same reason Neimi's range > Joshua: because they can reach further and from more spots).
The not recorded part is where Hand Axe Pirates, Javelin Cavs and friends all pop up, so while I agree that the trend doesn't reverse or anything, it does tilt over a bit more towards more ranged combat.
Pretending the difference between them on countering 1-2 range enemies is small surely must be a joke. As you said, Joshua requires quite a lot more to do it, and when you do it you aren't even gonna be sure they will go for Joshua, since you need other PCs to do it, and those all need to equip 1-2 range weapons. With Neimi, you can be pretty much making sure they attack her and only her.
If there's walls in play with enemies on the other side, such as in  as well as Ch14 (both routes), it takes Neimi just as long as Lute to counter them. Josh cannot do it at all. Lol @
It may as well not exist. It exists only after Ch19, other sword users such as Colm may want it, and it requires you to go out of your way and save the NPC Knights in Ch19. You know, those things that get one-rounded by everything in that chapter that rush to get themselves killed on the first enemy they see. If you're going to make a point of the Orion's Bolt being hard to get, I don't think you should be bringing this one up. Plus, all it does is pretty much taking enemy priority away from Joshua for when he has it equipped, since it completely rapes his offense at a distance: halved attack hitting on Res (which is lower usually, but not always, such as on eyeballs, and it also negates his critical completely). It's like me arguing for Short Bow having crit or something.
Allow me to rephrase it a bit: Neimi can more easily attack from behind walls than Joshua. Logical for player phase, I should not need to explain that, but yes, the fact that she can counter from back there is important, for one because this way you can force ranged enemies into taking a counter by equipping others with 1-2 range weapons, or if you're not doing that, it makes Neimi less likely to be attacked than Joshua to begin with.
Do not pretend you are going to train Colm and support him with Neimi only to ditch him later for someone else, only to rob Neimi of her mid and late supports. What you're saying is that there's not enough midgame unit slots to field Colm in addition to your entire fighting squad. Fortunately, you do. You get 11 or 12 unit slots in midgame for both routes. An example team: 1. Ephraim or Eirika 2. Joshua or Neimi 3. Moulder or Natasha 4. Tana or Vanessa 4. Franz 5. Lute 6. Seth 7. Tethys 8. Arthur I have 3-4 slots leftover, and I'm pretty much out of rly good units (or assumed units). I suppose on #9 there's Duessel for Eph route and Saleh for Eirika (though note that these, as well as a few others such as Tethys, are not in the Pick Unit menu for 2-3 chapters), but from there we get units that Colm can easily spar with when it comes to combat worth. There'S Gerik (Eir) or Cormag (Eph), Kyle, Forde and Ross, but I'd have to play all of those in order for not having room for Colm to be in play. Well, there's also Garcia and Gilliam, but if those are in play Neimi will simply support them. And remember, Colm only has to tie these units in combat to get a spot, since he gets the benefit of combat + thievery. And this is assuming I'm using a huge team. Using a small team of wtfrape units is a pretty good option too, for example just sticking to the above 8, and then I always have room for Colm. Also, I hope you realize that arguments against Colm as a combat unit ("once other people double, less impressive") largely apply to Joshua as well? Of course Colm doesn't really care, since he can do quite a bit of combat. Like, comparing him to Gerik, Cormag, Kyle, Forde and Ross using your favourite method. I'll start the comparison at halfway through Ch10, since this is when Cormag and Gerik join on their respective routes, and because you said Colm wasn't getting a spot midgame obviously. Normal amount is like 1.35 per map. Colm gets more than that due to his EXP bonus, then a bit less due to thievery, so I put him at 1.7 per map. Kyle and Forde got 5 levels each in 5x, then the normal amount for 8, 9 and half of 10. Ross probably took two or three maps to get to normal Fighter stage, and can then have about the same as Colm per map, putting him at 10/10). Gerik and Cormag join as noobs, so they join at 9 or 10 and gain the normal amount (less good at combat vs gaining above average EXP cancels out). Colm is pretty damn close to A Neimi if he doesn't have it already, and he also has got C Moulder at the time (7.5 maps, both of these require 41 turns, so it's like 6 turns per map, lol). Kyle and Forde can have each other, and I'll just go ahead and give both Ephraim, who gives them pretty much the best bonuses (so no complaining about Eirika route existing please). Ross only has C Loot here because his only other viable supports are Gerik (who only just joined) and Garcia (who would support Neimi as well, which means Colm no longer needs to be fielded in order for Neimi to have supports). Numbercrunching: 12 Colm - A Neimi, C Moulder: 12.0 atk, 16.5 AS, 39.0 hit, 20.8 crit - - 55.5 avo, 25.5 hp, 07.5 def, 5.0 res 12 Forde - B Kyle, C Ephraim: 11.8 atk, 11.2 AS, 42.5 hit, 15.5 crit - - 38.9 avo, 29.9 hp, 10.4 def, 4.8 res 11 Kyle - B Forde, C Ephraim: 13.5 atk, 09.0 AS, 34.3 hit, 13.8 crit - - 32.0 avo, 29.2 hp, 11.2 def, 3.0 res 10 Gerik - no supports noobs: 14.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 29.8 hit, 06.3 crit - - 34.0 avo, 32.0 hp, 10.0 def, 4.0 res 09 Cormag - same as above,,,: 14.0 atk, 10.0 AS, 19.8 hit, 04.3 crit - - 24.0 avo, 30.0 hp, 12.0 def, 2.0 res 10 Ross - C Lute, no'ne else: 17.0 atk, 08.4 AS, 28.0 hit, 06.4 crit - - 37.0 avo, 29.6 hp, 07.5 def, 4.6 res On the offense, Colm is owning everyone badly in AS. He's doubling everything pretty much, and he can trade his AS for Atk if needbe, while the others cannot do the reverse. After considering that, the only person with a substantial Atk lead over Colm is Ross, but Ross' Spd is so bad (Iron Blade Colm still beats him by 2, lol) and he gets rickrolled in the leftover two parameters, so Colm beats him two. Defensively, Colm again shows off his swiftness, owning everyone by like 20 avo on average, which is obviously huge in a 2-RN system. Something with 90 Hit has 23.46% real on Colm, while it has 52.47% real on Forde (who has the next highest Avo). More than twice as likely to get hit ftw. That > stupid 5-7 HP/~3 Def wins (especially since the Avo gap is even larger when not comparing to Forde but say, Kyle), and Colm whipes it up with a small but existant Res lead. Cormag brings flying, but also bow weak and not getting terrain bonuses, so let's not get into that. What's left is the access of 2-range of a few others, but that also rapes their combat parameters more. Kyle, Forde and Cormag also have 1 more mov than Colm, but Colm also has 1 more mov than Gerik and Ross. I don't see anyone of these claiming a victory over Colm, in fact, it's more like the opposite. So when we consider that when we field one of these, we get combat, while Colm brings combat and thief utility, Colm gets the spot over them. And I'd like to remind you that even if you object, that that three of these need to be in play for Colm to not get a spot in 11-unit chapters, and four of them for Colm not to get a spot in 12-unit chapters. Now, Colm will keep his level lead thanksto EXP bonus and better combat. You said Ch14 is a around when people promote, so let's do it there then, equalize their levels, but put Colm three ahead. Ross and Cormag should be the only one without full supports by now. Promoted classes are Rogue, GK, GK, Hero, Wyvern Lord and Hero respectively btw. 20/5 Colm - A Neimi, B Moulder____: 18.8 atk, 22.4 AS, 56.3 hit, 26.6 crit - - 74.7 avo, 36.5 hp, 13.5 def, 10.4 res 20/2 Forde - A Kyle, B Ephraim____: 18.4 atk, 17.2 AS, 65.0 hit, 25.3 crit - - 59.0 avo, 40.6 hp, 14.2 def, 8.0 res 20/2 Kyle - A Forde, B Ephraim____: 21.5 atk, 15.0 AS, 55.3 hit, 23.3 crit - - 51.0 avo, 40.7 hp, 15.7 def, 6.0 res 20/2 Gerik - A Tethys, B Ross_____: 21.8 atk, 18.3 AS, 56.2 hit, 34.5 crit - - 72.9 avo, 45.9 hp, 17.8 def, 10.8 res 20/2 Cormag - C Duessel, C Natasha: 22.9 atk, 15.4 AS, 42.5 hit, 12.7 crit - - 49.0 avo, 44.2 hp, 18.0 def, 4.8 res 20/2 Ross - B Lute, B Gerik_______: 23.9 atk, 13.7 AS, 49.8 hit, 22.3 crit - - 67.0 avo, 41.3 hp, 14.2 def, 10.8 res Now, what is new on the offense? Colm is still raping AS like before, that's what. Again, such a win easily overrides the small Atk win anyone has (Ross' Atk win has fluctuated now btw, and his AS loss has grown). The only one who stands a chance offensively is Gerik, who wins 3 Atk and 8 Crt versus Colm's 4 AS, so that is still arguable. Defensively, Colm beats everyone with Avo again, though thanks to the presence of supports he no longer wtfrapes Gerik and Ross. Kyle, Forde and Cormag still get owned too badly by the Avo and Res wins. I'll give Ross and Gerik a fairer shot now, though it should be noted that Colm is helping his support partner more than Tethys, for known reasons (Tethys cannot attack, so offense is worthless, and because of this her defensives is a lot less significant as well). Averages between these two points for the overall picture, because you love those so much: Colm: 15.4 atk, 19.45 AS, 47.65 hit, 23.7 crit - - 65.1 avo, 31 HP, 10.5 def, 7.7 res Forde: 15.1 atk, 14.2 AS, 53.75 hit, 20.4 crit - - 48.95 avo, 35.25 HP, 12.3 def, 6.4 res Kyle: 17.5 atk, 12 AS, 44.8 hit, 18.55 crit - - 41.5 avo, 34.95 HP, 13.45 def, 4.5 res Gerik: 17.9 atk, 15.65 AS, 43 hit, 20.4 crit - - 53.45 avo, 38.95 HP, 13.9 def, 7.4 res Cormag: 18.45 atk, 12.7 AS, 31.15 hit, 8.5 crit - - 36.5 avo, 37.1 HP, 15 def, 3.4 res Ross: 20.45 atk, 11.05 AS, 38.9 hit, 14.35 crit - - 52 avo, 35.45 HP, 10.85 def, 7.7 res Forde gets beaten on every offense parameter except for 6 hit, and then 16 avo + 1 res vs 4 hp and 2 def isn't enough win for Forde (if it even is) to overcome that. Kyle wins 2 Atk, but he loses a massive 7 AS and then a bit of 5 Crt, so again offense to Colm. Colm rapes avo and res even more badly than in the previous case of Forde, and 1 more Def than Forde had isn't going to save that, especially since Kyle also has a bit less HP. Next is 2 Atk for Gerik vs 4 AS, 4 hit and 3 Crt for Colm, so Colm wins. 11.5 Avo and 0.3 Res vs 8 HP and 3.4 Def would be a victory for Gerik though, but not benefitting supporters as much as Colm does gives the edge to Colm. Cormag on the offense is like Kyle, except in a more extreme way - 1 more Atk and 0.7 AS for losing even worse in Hit and crt, and Colm has almost twice as much Avo as he does and 4 more Res, so 6 HP and 4.5 Def cannot win that for him. Ross and his 5 Atk win cannot get past 8 AS and the hit/crt wins for Colm. Defensively, it's 13 avo vs 4.45 HP and 0.3 Def. Logic dictates that Colm's offense win is far bigger than any victory you could argue for Ross. Nobody has a victory over Colm in combat, many have a loss, so it logically follows that Colm brings more to the table, since not only he matches their combat, he also has the thief utility. If by any chance you are pointing out so many wrongs and mistakes with this series of comparisons that you think the conclusion is false, you must keep in mind that Colm only has to beat 2-3 of them to get a spot, and that he will still be played sometimes even if he is inferior, and that even if Colm is not played, there are also Gilliam and Garcia waiting in line to support Neimi. Oh, also
I see you neglected to mention that the same happens to Moulder/Natasha if you replace Colm with either of them. Interesting. You also forgot that chapters aren't divided into a section for Colm to do thief duties and a section for everyone else to fight in. Chest rooms are found in sideways of the fray, stealing is done on enemies within there, desert items are scattered throughout the entire map along with enemies and fog of war is all around you. Colm is definitely not going to be seperated, or if he is, it's only to get a few chests. On the way there and after that, Colm is indeed with Neimi and Moulder, and in quite some chapters chest rooms even have enemies - Ch14 (both routes), Ch17, Final are just examples, and the others such as Ch9 Eph and Ch19 still require combat to get to the chest room. Your next paragraph has now largely been addressed...
though there's one more thing I'd like to say about it. You say Natasha is toptier and assume she's always there to support Joshua. Take into account that you generally only want to use one healer, since two healers will be hurting each other's EXP pool by 50%, and the second healer isn't adding nearly as much durability as the first, since enemies tend to focus on injuring only one PC unit, and they become relatively less threatening as the game progresses. I would rather have an extra unit to attack with on player phase. This means you'd quite often only use one healer, and Moulder is considered better. Like at base: 5 Moulder 5 Mag - 21.0 avo, 21.4 hp, 2.5 def, 5.5 res 1 Natasha 2 Mag - 22.0 avo, 18.0 hp, 2.0 def, 6.0 res This is only the beginning, but Natasha can never close the level gap because of fixed staff EXP, and Moulder is ahead with building supports. It can safely be said that when using one healer, 50% of the time at least it will be Moulder, and if Joshua is making me use Natasha, that makes him lose out on a support 50% of the time. Or, if you prefer looking at it this way, if Joshua forces me to use Natasha rather than Moulder, his value is lowered by as much as the difference in performance between Natasha and Moulder. Moulder is also Vanessa's best support, and the two together add Anima/Anima support bonuses to the team, while the Joshua/Natasha support is nothing special (Wind/Ice would suck even if Wind wasn't useless for Natasha to begin with).
Note how I simply gave Joshua his Arthur support in my comparison - I'm not denying him it. I'm just saying that if Arthur had to choose, he would take Neimi. Neimi is pretty much the best option for all her supporters because of her affinity, and vice versa, Joshua is pretty much the worst in that aspect. The reason Natasha takes him anyway is support speed, though it makes very little difference for her to take Seth or Franz instead, especially since the time where a Joshua support would be at a higher level are often the times where Natasha is unpromoted and thus is largely not using her bonuses. Yes, if I am using Joshua, I will give him Natasha and Arthur, and I will move over Lute somewhere else, because a fully supported team is a main goal. However, if I have to go out of my way for that for Joshua, that is a point against him. Lute is better off with Arthur A, and if adding Joshua to my team means that she cannot have that, but instead must switch over to, say, Ross A, then Joshua's value is lowered by as much as the difference between these supports. In this case, that is mostly support speed (15+3 >>>> 5+2). Neimi does the exact opposite: without her, Colm has to resort to someone like Kyle for 5+2 on a later chapter, but thanks to Neimi he gets 80+3 on an earlier one. Also, Kyle and Ross are both mid tierish units, so if putting Joshua on my team means Lute needs mid tiers to be in play to get supports...yep, that is the same disadvantage you were harping on Colm on. Except Kyle and Ross don't add thievery to the team and aren't as good as Colm at combat to begin with.
Indeed, being good is in direct correlation with being used. If Joshua in play means that other units are less likely to be used, this makes them less good. This is like going "yeah, so what if Kent uses a Knight Crest that Sain/Oswin/Lowen want - if their play creates promotion issues, they will not be played". Joshua is using a resource that other units want too (and by just as much), and saying "they won't be in play because Joshua gets the resource" doesn't solve it. Making other units less likely to be played aka more suck = lose.
Units sometimes want to promote earlier, like to get new weapons, a crit bonus, more mov and better stats earlier in the game. Those bonuses overrides lower EXP gain pretty easily. Like, lower EXP gain means they might miss out on maybe a level or two or so in total if you promote somewhere between 15 and 20 rather than stricly at 20, but that will only affect them later, and promotion bonuses alone can be compared to the result of several level-ups, and on top of that there's these other gains. In this game, people don't reach 20/20 ever, so that doesn't matter either. So yes, this is a point against Joshua.
Huh? I can just as well sell the Hero Crest for 5k as well. Joshua not being in play does not guarantee another Hero Crester entering the team. Or if it was, you're just proving my point that Joshua is booting out other Hero Crest users, thereby making them worse. Joshua's promotion item must be consumed by Joshua when it could be sold for 5k or given to another unit. Neimi's promotion item must be consumed by Neimi when it could be sold for 5k. Neimi's situation >>>
If you don't do it when you're not playing Neimi, then you also miss out on the 5k you were hyping in the previous paragraph...anyway, Vanessa and Lute/Arthur together can easily block the Bael's way to the civilians, and kill it even at base level, and get there with no risk as long as you know enemy positions (which you know, because they're not variable, and Colm + Torch sees a million squares wide). You were going to do this for the 5k anyway, so you still would for Neimi promoting. Again, funny how you make a point of this but mention Light Brand for Joshua.
Your comparison between them is pretty ghey. For one, Neimi is missing 3 support levels, which even if Colm is not a perm-team member, she should have in some other way. If the plan is for Colm to be stopped fielding at some point, you can always kill him off to free up support space (there's no Survival ranking, so I don't see why you would care). For two, you go "lol superior flexibility" for early game, but completely disregard this advantage for Neimi later on, when Neimi has 1-3 range over Joshua's 1-range, as well as two more move and an occasional move again. And for three, it's interesting how taking the former into account, Joshua is still gaining 11 levels in the same time that Neimi is gaining 9. I thought equal EXP gains but superior flexibility meant the other meant the other gained more...if you'd like to withdraw those words, then there's no real point in Joshua having a 3 level lead over Neimi on promotion point either. Last but not at least, you managed to neglect this notion of the first post by only posting their raw stats: In addition to this, Neimi gets better weaponry. Nobody else mains bows except Innes, and he sucks. This means goodies such as Killer/Brave/Silver Bow and indeed Nidhogg are pretty much hers for taking - indeed, she's adding the offense of that to the team, as it's highly likely you would not have had them otherwise. The list of other units that can use good swords is much larger: Seth, Franz, Kyle, Forde, Eirika, Gerik and Colm, for one. There's more units who can use swords and will probably reach C at least, such as Falco Tana/Vanessa, Gilliam, Hero Ross, Hero Garcia and even Neimi herself. Meanwhile, the only other units who can even weild bows are Warrior Garcia, Ranger Gerik and Warrior Ross, and the Warriors are inferior promotion paths due to the lack of Spd gain upon promotion, which these units so desperately need. The main part of this is obviously that Neimi automatically wins offense for 18, 19, 20 and Final. Always getting Nidhogg > getting Audhulma and taking it away from someone else, so basically not adding it to the team but merely moving it from unit to unit. So I'll redo your comparison, and again assume full supports for both (but keeping in mind this is more likely to happen for Neimi than for Joshua, and that she's helping supporters more due to better affinity and Natasha being a non-combat unit for half of the game). I've given Neimi the average of B Garcia/B Gilliam - they won't always be played, but sometimes they are, and their combined chance of being in play is pretty good, especially considering Neimi makes them better and they have other supporters that like them as well. 5 Neimi (C Colm) 6.8 atk, 8.4 AS, 8.3 crit - - 24.8 avo, 19.2 hp, 3.6 def, 3.4 res 17 Neimi (A Colm, average of B Garcia/B Gilliam) 15.7 atk, 15.6 AS, 31.3 crit - - 60.2 avo, 25.8 hp, 6.9 def, 9.1 res Average: 11.25 atk, 12 AS, 19.8 crit - - 42.5 avo, 22.5 hp, 5.25 def, 6.25 res 5 Joshua 8.0 atk, 14.0 AS, 6.3 crit - - 35.0 avo, 24.0 hp, 5.0 def, 2.0 res 20 Joshua (B Natasha, B Arthur) 15.2 atk, 19.9 AS, 19.6 crit - - 61.3 avo, 36.0 hp, 10.0 def, 7.0 res Average: 11.6 atk, 16.95 AS, 12.95 crit - - 48.15 avo, 30 hp, 7.5 def, 4.5 res I won't lie to you, he still wins this by: 0.25 atk, 4.95 AS, 13.15 avo, 6 HP, 2.5 def and flex vs 6.85 crt, 1.75 res and benefitting supporters more. However, now promotion rolls around. Seeing as Joshua got a 3 level lead for his superior flexibility, it's only fair to give the same three levels back to Neimi in the end. If not moreso. 1-range vs 2-range is arguable, as demonstrated in the very first paragraph, but I've given you the benefit of the doubt here. Neimi has 1-3 range versus 1-range now, and more movement, so if anything she should be getting more out of it. 20/1 Joshua (B Natasha, B Arthur) 17.2 atk, 19.9 AS, 24.6 crit - - 61.3 avo, 41.0 hp, 12.0 def, 8.0 res 20/10 Joshua (A Natasha, B Arthur...or vice versa) 20.4 atk, 24.8 AS, 39.1 crit - - 75.8 avo, 48.2 hp, 13.8 def, 9.8 res Average: 18.8 atk, 22.35 AS, 31.85 crit - - 68.55 avo, 44.6 hp, 12.9 def, 8.9 res 17/1 Neimi (A Colm, average of B Garcia/B Gilliam) 17.7 atk, 16.6 AS, 32.3 crit - - 62.2 avo, 27.8 hp, 9.9 def, 11.9 res 17/13 Neimi (A Colm, average of B Garcia/B Gilliam) 22.1 atk, 23.7 AS, 35 crit - - 90.4 avo, 34.4 hp, 10.7 def, 15.3 res Average: 19.9 atk, 20.15 AS, 33.65 crit - - 76.3 avo, 31.1 hp, 10.3 def, 13.6 res So for comparing them: Offense - Neimi's 1.1 atk, 1.8 crit vs Joshua's 2.2 AS. 2.2 AS is easy to belittle when both of them have so much of it (and thus double anyways). Any lead you could squeeze out of Joshua for this gets instantly whammo'd by Neimi's now superior flexibility and being able to use better weapons more often. Defense - Neimi has 7.75 avo and 4.7 res, Joshua has 11.5 hp and 2.6 def. Like before, it seems Joshua wins on raw stats, and like before, Neimi easily overcomes all of this with taking less counters (less as in, she pretty much never has to, while Joshua nearly always has to) and again superior flexibility (think using terrain/supporters more often). So what do we have? Earlygame win vs lategame win. Well, we know which one is more relevant by now. Lategame has huger maps and more enemies, so lategame is more relevant. Of course Neimi also has range win, support win, promo win and stuff to rub salt in Joshua's wound. Pink Power Ranger >>> |
|
|
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| « Previous Topic · Debate Challenges · Next Topic » |
4:06 PM Nov 8
