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| Mekkah vs Kratos; Ninian vs Erk | |
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| Topic Started: Jun 27 2008, 02:22 AM (281 Views) | |
| Mekkah | Jun 27 2008, 02:22 AM Post #1 |
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In the left corner, we have Ninian, who is actually a dragon. In the right corner, we have Erk, who is a male Mage on his period. Yep, looks like an easy match for Ninian. Do I need to mention Ninian comes back from the dead and freezes not one but two Ice Dragons? The thing with Erk vs Ninian is that Erk is only one unit. Not a bad one at any rate, but not the best. That alone gives Ninian an edge, because she can be the best: everytime she dances for a unit better than Erk, such as Kent or Raven, Ninian is the best. Aforementioned units have more offense than Erk, so anytime that offense is needed, I'd rather have Ninian than Erk on my team to let one of these two units use their offense. There will also be times I do not need offense, but rather something else. For example, I'm in Cog of Destiny, and I have 3 people in need of restoring, but only Pent and Priscilla are on the field to help with that. Erk cannot help me here. Ninian can dance for one of my two healers so that everyone is restored. Ninian allows you to choose between which unit to refresh, which is a huge advantage. A unit like Erk can only do what his class allows him to. Ninian can make people steal, fight, seize, heal, rescue, drop, move, talk, support, trade, anything you want, and the player can pick which. Huge edge. It should also be noted that Ninian increases people's mobility, something that Erk cannot simulate at all. She can dance for people who have been dropped after rescuing, or simply dance after they already moved and did something. She can make Hector seize a turn earlier, making the chapter a turn shorter. Ninian also adds EXP rank. I'll admit Erk does this as well with healing, but oftentimes his healing does not add, but merely replace, like when I have less healers than I have wounds. He also only adds 5 EXP per heal, while Ninian adds 10 EXP per dance, EXP that you could not have gotten ever otherwise. Then Ninian has her personal rings, which Erk simply has no answer to. Nini's Grace makes Lucius look like Hector, Fila's Might gives Matthew Raven-like power, Thor's Ire turns any unit into a Swordmaster, etc. They will be particulary handy on bosses and in the final chapter, and Ninian is the only one who can bring them to the team (except Nils, but for all intends and purposes he is the same unit). Ninian is also the cheapest unit in the game. She costs absolutely nothing at all. Erk uses tomes all game long, staves for half of it, and a Guiding Ring. Ninian is so cheap that you might be able to incorporate someone like Farina or Dart in your team and still S-rank funds. Those two jump an entire tier or more at such a notion. Erk has no such advantage. I cannot expect the following two points to be not mentioned, so I'll just address them now: "Ninian is worse than an Archer on enemy phase!" Ninian is much better off, since she does not have to be on the frontline to be helpful. Also, her presence alone allows you to position your units better due to the mobility increase you give them. "Ninian gets left behind due to 5 mov" There is no incentive at all to leave Ninian behind the others, simply because the benefits of having her dance are so enormous. Note that Hero Raven is better off if he moves 3 squares, then Ninian dances, then he moves 6 more, than if he just moves 6 off the bat. Note also that Hector moves at exactly the same pace as Ninian, and that people moving ahead rids them of their support bonuses. In short, Ninian brings a lot of awesome stuff to the team, partly things you already had that you would love to use more than once per turn (your best offense or healing), partly things you did not have before (movement, rings, money), and Erk has no such thing. Notice that I didn't have to touch Erk's combat at all - there's nothing wrong with it, it's just that what Ninian brings to the table is so much more than a combat unit I can find anywhere. |
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| Big Boss | Jun 28 2008, 10:50 PM Post #2 |
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Ninian would be better off if she had killed herself when imprisioned at the dragon's gate so Nergal wouldn't have been able to call dragons.Then she pretty much caused Elbert's death. Doesn't surprise me that Eliwood didn't want to spend even a single night at Pherae after Athos transported them, considering that bish was with them, and could kill his mum now. Also, Ninian's face looks like "Hey! I'm being forced to be a prostitute" and that gives you a horrible reputation. I mean, as the tactician, you are in charge of the "management" of the units.
No, not necessarily. If both Erk and Raven/Kent can kill the enemy it doesn't matter if the latter have a couple more points in raw power, so Ninian is being just as good as Erk, but not better, combat wise. However, Erk actually does better against stuff like Wyverns or armors, and Erk attacks enemy phase, so he potentially kills and/or damages more units than Ninian, even if she was as good at player phase. As far as combat goes, Ninian is worse or equal to Erk.
Fortunately, Erk's class grants him the two most important abilities: attacking and healing. Erk does the best possible action nearly all the time. As for other actions: Steal: by the time Ninian joins, thieves only purpose to be deployed is to steal. As they focus almost 100% on their job, they won't need any assistance. Seize: suppose there is a chapter with an 18 turn limit to get 5 stars in tactics. You get to seize in 15 turns but thanks to Ninian you seize in 14. Not a considerable benefit, as you already were within the required limit. Of course, you could also go an say "what if you arrive at turn 18 and thanks to Ninian you don't wait until turn 19?". Well, that is highly unlikely. As tacticians who attempt to S rank HHM, we are smart enough and know the game well enough to seize a few turns before the limit. Also, at non seize chapters, this argument is completely pointless. Then stuff like rescue and talk are moar unlikely.
Dancing is not only not the only way to increase mobility but also not the more efficient. Combat is. This game is mainly about combat, there is combat in your turn, and even more combat than that during the enemy phase, as they get to move more units and always play all offensive. So, Ninian can go and dance for someone and call it a day. Erk stays there and receives attacks and kills, and since there are less enemies by the time it's your turn, the group as a whole increases it's mobility. Imagine if Ninian was the one who got attacked. The enemies would be alive and some of your units would have to slow down during your turn instead of further advancing.
Attacking also adds exp rank. Everyone helps exp rank. But Ninian getting "unique" experience doesn't mean it adds more experience.
Fila's Might is not that h4x. Matthew doesn't rly attack very much, and besides, if you need more powah, you can just attack->dance->attack and the combat unit gets more experience than if he had killed in just one round. Then Thor's Ire. +10 Crt is lol. attack->dance->attack is more reliable. And most bosses are pansies, anyway.
OK? Thanks to Matthew, we don't really care about the funds rank.
Archers also not need to be in the frontline. They can easily be behind your combat units so the only way they can get attacked is from a distance. They have a chance to counter. Ninian doesn't. Both an archer and Ninian force you to put extra work in your formation but the archer has more move so is more flexible itself, for whatever that's worth, even tough Ninian's dance is better for positioning purpose, BUT, if Ninian is being used a given turn just to reposition a unit so Ninian herself doesn't get attacked, then she was pretty useless that turn.
wait, what? your last point said Ninian isn't at the frontline while now you say there is no incentive at all to leave Ninian behind the others. Contradiction too much? Anyway, if Ninian does what you said with Raven, then there's not much use for a unit going solo and leaving support partners, unless there's an enemy or something. At any rate, when that happens then Raven leaves behind the rest of the team, which doesn't seem like a fantastic idea to me. And yes, she moves at the same rate as ppl like Hector and Osw1n, but since they are so near each other, she can dance for them and eventually she gets left behind. If Ninian increases the team's mobility as much as you say, she's bound to get left behind at some point. If she doesn't get left behind, then the team's mobility didn't get increased by such a great amount. With this I cover what you said, but you forgot 2 important points I wanna bring to the debaet: 1.-Joining time: Erk joins more than 7 chapters earlier and is one of your most valuale units. He joins with good stats thanks to Lyn's crappy mode, he is the only one that targets RES until Lucius joins (and even then, Erk is still better), has 1-2 range, which is pretty amazing since Javelins and stuff suck and ppl who use them aren't h4x enough, and he becomes a healer (possibly the best until Pent joins) before Ninian even joins. Then Ninian is there for like, half the time Erk exists and later disapoofs during the chapter with Denning. 2.-Supports: ppl love Erk. Units like Priscilla and Serra would love to support him and later Pent also is a good option. On the other hand, Ninian has Eliwood, who is getting A Hector almost always and can support someone like Lowen and Marcus for equal or better bonuses that are active earlier and that don't disappear during the last chapters of the game. Then Hawkeye is not very good and Wind-Ice is lol. Florina is ok, I suppose, but it is a hard to build support as she's a flier and fliers don't stay behind for the only purpose of supporting. That should do for now. |
 ^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan | |
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| Mekkah | Jul 2 2008, 12:06 PM Post #3 |
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What would she kill herself with? Her hair? Plus, Ninian would obviously feel sorry for everyone if she killed herself...poor soul... Hey, give her a break, she's tired all game long.
Key word: if. That is like saying: if both Lucius and Oswin can survive a horde of enemies, it doesn't matter if the latter has a couple more points in defenses, etc. Thing is, Raven and Kent DO have better offense than Erk, and by writing your paragraph you basically implied that these situations exist (I daresay there's quite a few of them - Cog of Destiny or Genesis anyone?). Focusing on the tie does not negate the win.
And Raven and Kent do better against pretty much everything else, and both can also use effective weapons to rid of Armors. Also, Erk does not necessarily add enemy phase attacking to the team. I could already do it without him. It's not a unique trait of his. Assuming a team of 10 combat units, he just adds like 10% of that benefit. However, there is only one best unit per phase, and Ninian multiplies that "best" by two.
No, Erk hardly ever has the best possible action. His offense is worse than top tier units, and he heals less HP with a lower staff level than pretty much everyone else, including but not limited to Priscilla and Pent. He is never the best.
Eh? So if people focus 100% on one job, they do not need any assistance? You realize such logic implies that Erk needs more assistance than, say, Raven, since Erk does two jobs and Raven only one? Ninian allows a thief to steal and back off the same turn, or to end a player phase outside an enemy's range, to be able to steal next turn without having to crawl into range first. That's pretty cool, since if a thief were to be attacked, his counterattack would be pretty balls, and often hurt EXP rank due to being at 20/0.
Of all arguments you made, this one probably makes the least sense of all. The game doesn't merely check whether you made the limit or not and leave it at that, it counts the turns. Quite often, there is no way you make the limit, and you are in the negative. The numerous 0 turn limit chapters, for example: 11, 15, 19xx, 25, 30 and 32x. That's quite a lot to make up for. You are in the negative and any turn saved is a boon to the tactics rank. For non-seize chapters, it's not like the chapter doesn't have a goal. The goal is simply "kill enemy" or "kill boss", and it's not like Ninian does not help you achieve those more quickly either. Just because it's not Hector seizing does not make Ninian's contribution null all of a sudden. If Ninian dancing allows you to kill Linus one turn earlier, then that has the same effect as allowing Hector to seize one turn earlier.
The main reason rescue is considered suck is because the unit that gets dumped cannot move, so it costs turns. Ninian allows them to move again, so if someone just got carried by an 8 mov Paladin and Ninian dances for them, wham massive movement increase. Talk doesn't happen often, but it happens, and Ninian can be a good help with for example recruiting Harken before he brandishes his Brave Sword on you.
Good thing that there is simply no need, no incentive for Ninian ever to get attacked. And yes, there is combat, which is important, but it hardly helps Erk, since without him I could still do combat perfectly fine. Adding Erk merely adds another combat unit, adding Ninian adds the best possible player phase action. I could do the former with a lot of units, and it doesn't add much if any at all to begin with, but the latter obviously always results in a significant improvement. What you stated has little to do with what you quoted anyway: It should also be noted that Ninian increases people's mobility, something that Erk cannot simulate at all. She can dance for people who have been dropped after rescuing, or simply dance after they already moved and did something. She can make Hector seize a turn earlier, making the chapter a turn shorter. Basically, Ninian has potential to give normal people up to 6 mov extra, so 12 mov total. That's pretty damn amazing.
Yes, Ninian does add more experience. I even outlined it in the very piece you quoted: EXP you would not have gotten otherwise. Anything Erk kills on whatever phase can be killed by about anyone, and I would have gotten the EXP. Anytime Erk heals someone, I could have done it with another healer, and I would have gotten the EXP (this one does not apply always such as with combat, but very often it does). However, even if Ninian's dance does nothing at all for any other aspect of the team, it adds 10 EXP, and no one else could have gotten me that piece of EXP.
Matt was merely an example that showed that a unit that has relatively few Atk can become an attacking monster if needbe. Adding more Atk is adding more offense. Saying attack->dance->attack is better downplays the value of Fila's Might, but it makes the normal dancing better, so it doesn't take away from Ninian's value overall. What you conveniently don't mention is that adding more Atk means less rounds of combat and therefore less counterattacks (so it adds defense too), and it uses up less weapon uses (so you get more out of your expensive/rare weaponry). It may seem little to you, but all of it is stuff that Erk has nothing to say against.
What's Erk's answer to it? Having 5 Crt with Thunder? Most people have more Crt with Killer anyway, so Ninian is adding more Crt to the team than he is. Thor's Ire gives Guy the possibility of 100% Crt (he caps at 90 with supports, S swords, Killer, 30 Skl and Swordmaster class), and it's also about 19% extra crit for a double. Again, you may say "it matters little", but Erk has nothing to counter it with, so it just piles on Ninian's advantages.
If we didn't care at all, we wouldn't have Dart and Farina at the bottom of tier lists, we wouldn't be bitching as much about Lyn and Eliwood's Heaven Seals, and we would just be assuming higher end weapons all the time rather than most of the time. The truth is, funds became easy, but not a guarantee five star category such as Combat. Ninian adding a good 30k to that overall cannot be shrugged off as "lol funds is easy". You also forget that funds is interchangable: the more funds you have leftover, the more you can trade in for better weapons to better tactics, or for better staves to better durability and EXP, or for an Earth Seal so that we can use four Knight Cresters. Every bit you have leftover can be used to your advantage in another area, and Ninian gives you quite a chunk of it.
Archers need to go near enemies to do what they need to: attack. Enemies are seldomly on their own, so the use of an archer during a turn basically implies that you will need people surrounding them in order to not lose effiency. Ninian can dance or ring PCs from a lot more spaces, since PCs are at your disposal, while enemies are AI-controled. Archers have more mov? Rath does, but Rebecca and Wil only have more once they have promoted. But it's completely nill compared to the flexibility advantage for Ninian I just gave. Uh, Ninian's dances add flexibility to your frontline for more good than her own. There will rarely if ever be a case where her dance is just there to protect herself, and if there is, it's still a net positive for her overall since she still added to EXP rank and gave someone an extra action (that could have been killing the last enemy with Ninian in range).
Don't be silly, "behind" in this context is behind to the point where she has nobody to dance for, not that she isn't out of enemy range. A mere two squares behind your frontlines achieves that perfectly.
And if there is an enemy, then it is a good idea. There will be occasions where you want someone to leave the group for a little while, perhaps to kill that thief raiding your chest room in PFoD or BBD. If such a thing can be achieved without Raven being in support range with other people near them, then Ninian gives you the choice to do so, while Erk does not.
Only if people use their full move all the time and leave Ninian behind on purpose, but as I said, the benefit of Ninian dancing is so great that it's better to stay near Ninian for it. It more than cancels out LOL USIN ALL MA MOVE. She can also dance for people in small support triangles/chains so that they can advance faster, then keep assisting a slower group after that.
Mobility is more than advancing forward, ya know. A very valuable mobility increase can also be standing next to support partners, or onto terrain, or right next to a boss so that he attacks next turn, or protecting your less defensive units better, etc. You can get maximum benefit out of Ninian without leaving her behind. Or even if you do leave her behind, she only needs one turn to catch up, since you're bound to run into enemies somewhere. Also, if Ninian's mov is really a problem, you can give her the Boots. "zomg stat boosts 1!! FUNDS!!" Ninian is still cheaper than Erk even if she uses two or three stat boosters - the Guiding Ring alone is worth one and then some. "zomg stat boosts 2!! ERK BOOTS TOO" Yes, I suppose if Ninian gets a stat booster, then Erk should get one too to be fair, since it's a limited resource after all. However, Boots improve Ninian more than any stat booster improves Erk, so giving both a stat booster of your choice, so instead of Ninian > Erk, it becomes Ninian >>> Erk now. This is because while giving Erk the Boots increases only his mobility by two, an increase in Ninian's mobility means an increase in everyone's mobility.
His joing time advantage is countered by the fact that Erk is using up EXP (and therefore levels and stats) that others could have gotten, even in Lyn Mode. Had I not used Erk, everyone else would have been stronger. And he's also using tomes before the Silver Card even exists. Best healer? Even if that mattered, he isn't. Both Priscilla and Serra are better units than Erk, and unless you give Erk beneficial treatment while denying them the same (for example, giving him a Guiding Ring earlier), then he's not surpassing them in any aspect really. He can use higher end tomes, but Serra and Priscilla can use much higher level staves, which add extra utility value and all. And then indeed Pent comes and makes him more obsolete, etc.
Who cares, it's one chapter where all that matters is getting treasure and keeping enemies from killing you or getting the throne. The only thing you need to do to maximize your tactics benefit for that chapter is kill Denning before the chapter is over. Erk's contribution to this chapter is extremely minimal, considering you can field a ton of units, and they can all do pretty much the same thing.
Priscilla and Serra both have a million other good units to support. Guy, Oswin, Raven and Sain all want a Priscilla support if they can have it, and all four of these have trouble getting full supports if Erk snags the space away. Lucius wants a Priscilla support as well if Serra isn't in play/is full. You might bring up that Erk gives Priscilla better bonuses or something (which hardly matters, because Priscilla isn't entering the fray at all before she promotes, and afterwards she'll still be healing), but the difference between Erk/Priscilla bonuses and other unit/Priscilla bonuses is much smaller than the difference between these other units not getting supports and them getting a Priscilla support. Serra is same story, except Erk is literally her second slowest option ever. In this case, he's nowhere near her best support. Sain and Lucius both really want Serra, and they're the two fastest. Hector and Oswin don't really care to get the bonuses Serra gives them, but Serra does want their Def/Avo bonuses, and they are slightly faster than Erk, so again, she'll take them. I won't bother to argue for Matt or Florina. For Pent, that only helps really late, and Canas (who has a decent shot at being in play, being lower High/upper Mid) wants to support him as well, so again it's not merely gain for Pent, since he would still often have a support were Erk not there.
Ninian doesn't really care for supports since she doesn't fight. If you were arguing for someone like Lucius, who is giving Raven bonuses he otherwise wouldn't have, this point might matter, but Erk isn't helping his partners getting supports or bonuses, merely replacing others. So: Ninian - best player phase offense or best player phase misc action - mobility increase (huge normally, very huge if Ninian gets Boots, and makes Rescue a very viable strategy) - always adding to EXP rank - personal rings - costs absolutely nothing (which allows other units to cost a lot more) vs Erk - earlygame help - attacks on enemy phase Everything Erk does can be replaced by someone else, and since Erk is not the best unit, that means I could have been better off. Ninian's positives are all unique to her. |
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| Big Boss | Jul 7 2008, 09:56 PM Post #4 |
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Yeah, hair sounds good. Or she could've stopped drinking water, or something. And I bet she feels awful now. She went against the rules and opened the gate. Because of her irresponsible actions, Eliwood and co eventually ended up in Bern and protected Zephiel. If Zephiel had died that day Bern wouldn't have caused a massive war and killed Hector years later.
The difference isn't nearly as big as your Lucius-Oswin example. There also exist many situations where Erk has better offense like, all early game Erk is stronger due to enemies having low RES and easily wins against armors (chapter in Caelin castle, anyone?). Then later on he still wins against armors but now wyverns are common. Where are Kent and Raven winning? Promoted magic users? Far less common. Against stuff like pirates and cavaliers and archers and stuff all of our units kill easily.
Erk not needing effective weapons is an advantage. Not everyone can have them at the same time. You would require to trade weapons while Erk can simply melt the fat armors. And who cares if attacking enemy phase isn't unique? That's like saying "I use only one unit of each class because more than that wouldn't be unique". Erk may add only like 10% of that benefit, while Ninian is at like -10% (can get attacked but can't attack). Then best unit per phase isn't as unique. Imagine a situation where you have 3 units (one of them Ninian) and 3 enemies. The 3 enemies get killed. Now, replace Ninian with Erk, the 3 enemies still get killed but you have 3 attackers during the enemy phase instead of 2. Erk is easily winning here, and this is the situation that happens more often in the game, considering that there are shitloads of enemies.
o rly? Erk 20/5 B Priscilla (Fire)...21 Atk, Raven 20/1 B Priscilla, B Lucius (Iron Axe)...26 Atk Kent 20/1 B Lyn B Sain (Iron Axe)...26 Atk The difference is 5 attack, which is equivalent to the Def-Res gap most of the time, And, his enemy phase offense exists more and is better so I'd call Erk's offense top tier. Also, note that when, for example, Raven moves before Pris and Lucius, he is losing 2 atack, when Kent isn't in range of Lyn or Sain, he loses 2 Atk per partner, and can have worse offense than Erk, while Erk, on the other hand, doesn't lose a vital amount of power when away from Priscilla. And then staves, depending the time of Erk's promotion, he has 11-13 MAG. There are hardly situations at midgame where you need to heal more than 21-23 HP. Same for lategame, but Erk heals moar now. Priscilla, at the same level as Erk, heals like 1-2 more hp, which doesn't make her superior at all, and I'd question them being at the same level considering Erk has a level lead and grows faster before promotion. And Pent only heals like 3-4 more when he joins. Not clearly superior at all. And finally, Serra has less MAG than Erk.
When it is a job as simple as thieving you do not need assistance. The thief is easily covered without assistance. For example, a room with chests. The thief goes inside and takes his time getting the treasure. Dancing for him is completely worthless as you don't need it battling or something. When it is about stealing from enemies, well, they are the ones who approach you so you easily steal and then kill with other units.
Ninian is not going to not get attacked just because you wish it. Wyverns can fly around to her, mounted units can also move around, mages/archers/other 1-2 range ppl can attack her if she's not that far behind. And once again, if something is h4x, the more the better. Combat, in this case. Imagine how slow the game would be if you just had a single unit because more "would add nothing new". Ninian adds the best possible player phase action, yes, but in exchange, she also is the worst possible unit enemy phase, which is also something pretty unique, I guess =P
It is relevant. Both of us are talking about mobility, but Erk's approach is different. Ninian makes one unit move 12 spaces or w/e. Erk kills enemies enemy phase, and that helps mobility. Imagine this situation. There's a group of enemies ahead; 3 shamans make it into Erk's range and commit suicide. Everyone happily moves in your turn. Now, imagine the 3 shamans attack Ninian, or someone who doesn't add the enemy phase offense Erk adds, like, for example, killing edge Guy and live. 3 units then attack during your turn and Ninian dances for one. Remaining units advance. Everyone but 2 units (3 if we count Ninian) fully advanced. 12 units advancing>>9-10 units advancing. Erk's offense is fantastic when it comes to mobility, more so than Ninian's dance, because it helps the team as a whole, and not just a single unit.
Yeah, bad wording here. I meant "more experience than Erk". So, while Ninian's contribution is unique, it doesn't mean it adds more than other units. For example, Erk kills 3 units in two full turns. That's some 70 exp. Ninian would have to dance 7 turns to get the same as Erk. So yeah, Ninian has unique exp, but in lesser quantity, so her contribution is actually smaller, as the exp rank doesn't care how you got the experience. And then, Ninian only has like 13 levels to grow, if she's level 7 from Lyn's crap story. Erk has those 13 and then other 20 thanks to promotion, so his contribution gets even bigger.
It only adds defense when you OHKO thanks to it, which may not be the case that often (especially if you use it on bosses). Then, weapon uses don't rly matter unless it's an expensive weapon. I wouldn't mind losing like 10 gold from using an extra use of my iron axe. However, an extra round of combat means some 10 exp to my combat unit, which is better cause combat units need the level ups and the extra stats, unlike Ninian, and the exp. rank is harder than funds, anyway.
Having 5 stars with nex to to no effort =/= being free to give bad use to all the funds. That's why Dart and Farina are rated low. You can easily achieve the 5 stars rank and use fancy weapons and stuff without Ninian. Zero requeriment chapters ftw
Archers are in the exact same situation as Ninian, except they approach the enemies moar, but it doesn't matter if at the end both Ninian and the archers get covered. In fact, if you surround your archer and gets attacked from a distance it is being helpful. On the other hand you could say you keep Ninian behind to avoid attacks, but even if she doesn't get attacked, she's still completely useless
If we are talking about Oswin and Hector yes, they want to use their full move to own the frontline with their h4x stats. They do indeed stay behind a single turn to benefit from Ninian's dance and arrive at the frontline, but after that they are pretty much on their own until you get slowed down.
She's not the only one who wants the boots, tough.
The "lol using exp" argument is silly. First, let's suppose I used Erk in an 11 units team and at a given point we see he got 10 levels Now, imagine the team without him, you have 10 units but in average they are just one level higher, meaning, one more point in 2-3 stats. Incredibly small stat advantage<<<<1 more unit. Second, if your team is smaller eventually your units will start hogging experience because they'll level up a bit faster. The more units, the merrier. Then, using stuff before silver card? yeah, lol at that. Everyone does that. oh noes! everyone sucks! Let's have them fight with their fists!. And also, he uses like 2 tomes before silver card so it doesn't rly matter. At the healer part, at midgame you aren't using higher level staves, so using higher level tomes is better. Plus Erk level ups faster than Prissy and Serra, so he'll likely be promoting first.
meh, minimal contribution>>>no contribution And Ninian's existance already is small. She's there for 14 chapters (counting final as 2 chapters) and she doesn't exist half of that time (enemy phase). That's a very big problem. Erk is there for 28 chapters and exists both phases, plus, early on he is a unique unit just like Ninian and offers fantastic help all the time.
I honestly don't see Oswin unsupported. He can easilly get B Hector and then support Dorcas or Matthew. And he has Serra as well. He doesn't care if Priscilla doesn't want him. Sain gets A Kent and gets moar benefit from units like Rebecca, Serra and Isadora. Raven can get A Lucius B Pris, or B Rebecca if you want Pris to be with Guy. And then Pent, since the Erk support is faster and Erk is in play more often, is valid. At least is more than whatever Ninian can offer is regards to supports. One thing is clear, tough, Erk is Priscilla's fastest support and with gr8 bonuses
The world doesn't revolve around Ninian, tough. She may not care about supports, but the rest of the team does. Erk supports ppl and make them better (and this adds both offense and defense) and does it since earlier. Ninian has absolutely no answer to this. So yeah, Erk vs Ninian can be resumed as: Unique earlygame utility, h4x combat all the game and healing later. Supports people and is useful enemy phase vs Very small period of activity consisting of best action during your phase + worst unit during enemy's and some help to EXP and Funds (but funds is lol) Erk easily gives more benefit to the team. His joining time more than makes up for Ninian's "best" action, as most of the time Erk does the same via healing or attacking. Sorry if I took too long to reply 
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^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan | |
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| Mekkah | Jul 10 2008, 05:05 PM Post #5 |
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What, you think Ninian cannot survive without water? Silly. It wasn't because of Ninian that they ended up protecting Zephiel. They were going there to begin with, because Desmond was acting all tough.
Well, at least you admit the difference is there, that's all I wanted to get across.
In such situations, there's still people with better offense, it's just not Erk but, say, Wolf Beil Hector. Interestingly, the Caelin chapter has no relevance for this argument, because this is about Ninian providing the best performance on player phase vs Erk not doing so. When Ninian is there, Erk doesn't really beat Raven and Kent at anything in offense. 23 Erk has 14.4 Mag, gets 15.4 if Priscilla is with him 21 Raven has 16.2 Pow, gets 17.2 or 18.2 depending on if one, two or none of Pris/Lucius/Rebecca are with him 22 Kent has 14.6 Pow, can get up to 19.6 with supports So let's say you are with your supporters about half the time (therefore halving the bonuses): Erk - 14.9, 20.9 Atk with Thunder Raven - 17.2, 25.2 Atk with Iron Axe, 26.2 with Killing Edge Kent - 17.1, 25.1 Atk with Iron Axe, 27.1 with Killer Lance That easily bridges the Def/Res gap if it's there, and then some. The biggest is Wyverns (9), and both Raven and Kent have 26.2 Atk against those (thanks to WTA), and will later be able to use Killer to bridge the gap even more. Next up is Armors (8), which Erk wins against minimally, but Armorslayers >>> that. Against something like a Cavalier (5), they are about even with Iron, and with Slayer or Killer Raven and Kent beat out easily. So no, Erk isn't winning offense against these. Now, you may bring up that they both kill generics anyways, and that we should only be looking against threatening enemies, such as promoted ones. That doesn't help Erk's case. The Def/Res gap becomes maybe 2-3 bigger, but Raven has 15% more Str growth (Kent's is equal), and they will pick up Silver if needbe, as well as Killer Axes once their axe level has been built, and you get to buy all Slayer weapons in the FFO Secret Shop. Bosses make it even worse, because those don't really have a Def/Res gap for Erk to capitalize on at all, and some even have more Res than Def. Bosses with Def/Res gaps (+ is more Def, - is more Res) Eubans: -2 Paul: +2 Jasmine: -3 Linus: +2 Lloyd: -7 Kenneth: -12 Jerme: -4 etc etc
They're buyable in FFO, and they don't all need them all the time, only when they're fighting Armors. And Ninian can also make Lucius or Canas move again, or make trading such a weapon easier. So no, Armors don't help Erk's case at all.
I don't mean unique as "Sol Katti makes the boobs bounce"-unique and you know it. Erk isn't adding anything of it because I could have countered on enemy phase without him. Ninian isn't getting attacked, so she's doing 0%. I would still counter on enemy phase when using Erk.
Uh, there is not a single situation in the game where you're stuck using three units, so I don't know why I would try to imagine an unrealistic situation like that. Nonetheless, all three got killed either way, so there's no difference here at all (if there's one you didn't illustrate it properly at all - I guess you are going to do so in your last post, but it's kinda lame waiting it out like that). If anything Ninian wins in this situation, because one of the attackers gets to advance further on player phase.
Next is a comparison with...Erk with a 4 level lead for some reason. I gave him 1-2 levels, that's plenty. Kent and Erk start on about the same level (Erk joins earlier in HHM, but Kent earlier in LM, and overtime to promotion any gap one has will be closed by the other). When Kent promotes, Erk didn't suddendly build up a 4-level lead with staves. I'll point you to the comparison done above instead. For them losing supports when they move away, I took that into account in the comparison as well by giving situations with and without supports in range equal weight, and they're still winning offense by a huge amount.
You forget that the others can use Mend (which makes up for 10 mag when healing), while Erk cannot do so until mid-endgameish, and by then the others also have Recover to resort to if needed as well as other staff utility value. In addition, if I healed once with, say, Priscilla, and I have a choice of making her heal again or letting Erk heal, I'll take Priscilla, since she gets more EXP out of it when unpromoted with the same staff, or still more if she's promoted by using Mend. So using Ninian to let people heal again > using Erk to heal. More EXP and healing more HP ftw. Interestingly, Bishop Lucius has the same higher level staff advantage (as well as much more Mag), and Canas just has more Mag.
Sometimes your thief isn't done picking while everyone else is ready for the seize/boskill, so Ninian dancing helps then. Sometimes there's combat units or other thieves out there (and enemy thieves often have nice lockpicks to steal), so Ninian helps that as well. Enemies don't always rush, some stand still until you're in their range, and unless you're Rebecca (or heh Ninian), you might kill them on the counter. Or if you disarm or let them use weaker weapons, they're worse against every other enemy in range. Plus, your method leaves the thief exposed more often than mine.
Enemies can only reach Ninian if you let them. You can see enemy movement ranges and positions, and you can adjust yours more than usual thanks to Ninian herself. You're looking at it the wrong way. If you only had one unit, the second unit would be doubling your combat power. Adding another adds 33%, then another adds 25%, etc. Those are all reasonable. At this point, we are considering adding Erk or Ninian, and assuming a 12-man team total (where Erk/Ninian is the 12th unit), so he adds like 8% compared to Ninian. Not even that, since Ninian adds more combat as well, plus you will be using fillers (either unpromoted for EXP rank or promoted simply for having more). Ninian is only the worst possible unit on enemy phase if she got attacked every single time and didn't have any durability. Fortunately, she never needs to be in enemy range, and even if she ever is, her 10/0 Avo alone is 53.8 - more than the 50.54 Avo Erk has at 20/1, giving him half of his support bonuses (this is to acount for the time they're not near him, though I also doubt he has A Priscilla and B Serra already). And then 220% Avo growth over Erk's 130%.
For that to happen, said Shamans would have to be attacking Erk to begin with, which means either he is the only one in range (so others had to position themselves out of enemy range, which is gheyer than what Ninian needs to do, since others actually want to advance, especially Hector, plus it's more of them) or others have 1-2 range equipped (in which case the enemies are not likely to go for Erk anyway - especially not if they're Shamans). So it only helps mobility if you hurt other people's. Around the time Ninian joins, people have pretty decent offense with Hand Axe/Javelin if needed, so Erk is hardly anything of this at all - I would just have it without him. Ninian isn't simply helping one unit either: the effects that one unit has on advancing more spread out to other people being able to advance more, for example by killing an extra enemy, or positioning another unit so that he kills more enemies, or blocks a reinforcement spot.
Once again, you totally miss the point. Erk didn't create that EXP out of thin air. I would have gotten it anyways without Erk on my team, it's just that someone else like Lowen or Raven would have taken it instead. That's not adding anything to the EXP rank at all (in fact, since Erk is slightly overleveled, it's more likely that he actually hurt the EXP rank there). Ninian's EXP, however, cannot come from anywhere else. She dances, gains 10 EXP, and no one else could have gotten that. Key word: "if". I might not want to get 19xx - that depends on whether I want to spend time Lundgrenabusing and killing Kishuna, to get the spoils from 19xx, trading tactics for funds and EXP. If she doesn't, she has more like 17. And no, again, Erk is not contributing EXP to the team at all. With your logic, Lowen is better for EXP rank than Nino, because Lowen has 18 levels prepromotion and 20 after, while Nino has 15 levels pre and 20 after. However, Lowen isn't gaining more than anyone else when he fights, but a normal amount, while Nino gains tons more, so she's adding EXP to the team (if a normal unit like Lowen would have gotten 5 from an enemy, and Nino gets 50, Nino added 45). Ninian doesn't kill enemies to gain EXP though, so she simply has a net benefit of 10 per turn (and 1300 or 1700 overall), while Erk's is pretty much 0.
Bosses aren't always at full HP, but it will happen that they need an extra 1-10 damage to die to another smack, and Ninian can give them that. It's not just about gold, more about using shit like Mani Katti and Brave weapons that you have a limited amount of which you get more out of when you use Fila's Might/Thor's Ire on it. But hey, if normal dancing is a better option, Ninian adds that to the team as well, so it doesn't matter. Still an advantage for her, just on a different field.
Both Dart and Farina have amazing potential, and they're pretty much only held back by the cash. Dart is just a great offensive unit that gives Geitz an extra support option, Farina's underleveled, but then again she also helps the gay EXP rank and adds flying, so she would at least be in Upper Mid if she didn't have cost. Adding Ninian to da team instead of Erk gives you a lot more money, and that automatically fixes these units fatal flaw. Making other units hop tiers = win. And as I said, funds is interchangable. There's no reward for ending funds with 10k overkill, so spend it on stuff. Ninian adds another 30k or so. You cannot pretend your funding is infinite in this game, so Ninian will always allow you to use more expensive stuff more often, which improves combat performance, and therefore your tactics rank. Zero requirement chapters _hurt_ your tactics rank by every single turn you spend in it. And those don't make you auto-S funds or whatever. Above still applies. Plus, some are gaidens, and if Ninian's extra funds means I don't have to go to zero requirement chapters, then that's cool, because not only did I just add funds, but I also saved out on tactics.
Archers aren't gonna be attacked from a distance when they're surrounded unless everyone else has 2-range equipped. Neither Ninian nor Archers are gonna be attacked like that, and if you don't get attacked, it doesn't matter who you are. This means having a unit like Erk out of enemy range is totally useless - he might as well be Renault or Karla. These situations happen, and on such turns, Ninian is raping Erk in usefulness due to winning huge on player phase and then winning by a bit on enemy phase (other units are now positioned better on enemy phase).
People are going to run into terrain and enemies too often to advance fully every single turn, so Ninian can easily keep up with them. Not that Ninian can't perfectly keep up with unpromoted Oswin anyway.
Good thing I addressed this right under the passage you quoted. Yes, I suppose if Ninian gets a stat booster, then Erk should get one too to be fair, since it's a limited resource after all. However, Boots improve Ninian more than any stat booster improves Erk, so giving both a stat booster of your choice, so instead of Ninian > Erk, it becomes Ninian >>> Erk now. This is because while giving Erk the Boots increases only his mobility by two, an increase in Ninian's mobility means an increase in everyone's mobility. What goes for Erk goes for others: Ninian improves team mobility by more when she gets the Boots than anyone else improves team mobility. In arbitrary values to illustrate: other people add +2, Ninian adds more like +6. Net win: +4.
Small stat advantages can save your ass in bottlenecks pretty often. It frequently happens that your 11th unit doesn't take an action on any phase at all, so in those cases I'd much rather want 10 stronger units. Lol, "hogging EXP". You get like 3 EXP per kill less if you're one level higher (at for example, 15/0 compared to 16/0), weakening is the same. Plus, something I forgot to mention, Erk is taking up a unit slot. Those are pretty limited early on. You can hardly field your whole team at all, and you also want to blend in fillers for the EXP rank. Hey, I am using Erk, but I could be fielding Kent instead. Take like Port of Badon. I need Hector, I need Florina to visit the houses and talk to Fargus, I need a fast swordie like Guy, then I'd like Oswin as well to block the Paladin boss and 2HKO him with Horseslayer, and Raven to gain EXP from pirates, and one or two healers...one can hardly fit Erk in there at all.
It doesn't mean everyone sux, it's just a point against them that widens the funds gap more.
Um yes, you'll want to use Mend for more EXP plus healing fully, and Unlock to save Matthew some work, and Torch in Fog of War for extra vision and Barrier because most people are pretty bad at handling Mages, plus all of those give pretty much free EXP. What higher end tomes is Erk using? You don't get to buy Elfire until Ch26, and that tome isn't nearly as awesome as higher end staves anyways. No, Erk doesn't level up faster at all. He gains about as much from killing one enemy as Pris/Serra get from healing one person (assuming Erk has a six level lead on his enemies, which is pretty accurate on average...he'll prolly outlevel them by even more later). However, Erk isn't always killing, in which case he gets less, and sometimes he is not taking an action at all while Serra/Pris pretty much always find someone to heal. And Erk is taking EXP from other people, too.
Might as well not be a contribution. Might even be a negative since everytime he takes a kill, someone with a lower level could have taken it instead.
Huh? Erk does nothing unique at all. He just fights in other people's stead, and he's hardly better at it. Ninian may not be there for as many chapters, but when she's there, she's clearly above everyone else except your best unit. Being the best when you're there > not being the best when you're there, even if the former is half as big.
He doesn't want Hector at all, since all they do is make each other invincible, but they were already invincible. What Oswin wants is offense, which Prissy gives. Plus, Hector is restricted to running to the throne every time, while Oswin might want to do other things, such as staying near Merlinus. He's not fit for the throne rushing job Hector has anyway due to his 4 mov. Then, Hector is sucking for a long time at 20/0, at which point he hardly has to seize anymore (midgame is practically all "kill enemy/boss" or something like "seize 3 forts" in Crazed Beast), so that Hector hardly has any business near the fray to begin with other than support the unfortunate people who picked him for a partner. Dorcas is a Mid tier and not likely to be in play at all considering his inability to double snails. If he's in play, Oswin will take him, but that still leaves him begging for a B, since Matthew is always off scouring for chests, and if there's no chests, he isn't likely to be fielded, partly due to not being very good at fighting, partly because he's likely to be 20/0 already.
Sain may want to get Serra, but Serra herself has a million units she might want to support, plus the support doesn't give anything whole except Crt and Crt Eva, while Priscilla gives him full Hit (which he wants because of Skl issues early on), full Atk (which he wants because he likes to hurt things a lot) and full Crt (again yay). Rebecca's a sniper, and snipers are pretty ghey (if you're not going to exist on enemy phase, you better do something outstanding on player phase like Ninian), and Isadora is pretty bad (lame Atk, unable to boost it without hurting AS and Avo).
Again, Rebecca is likely not in play. And if Priscilla has even one other partner besides Guy/Raven, Erk is taking a spot someone else could have gotten, which proves my point.
Erk is assumed to be in play since he's being debated. However, Canas isn't unlikely to be in play either, again because he's lower high/upper mid (misc utility with staves and Luna/Nosferatu plus helping EXP rank are pretty cool).
They only help Erk pretty much, since Priscilla would get supports anyway, and by the time she's using them (promoting), she's pretty much done supporting whoever. And we already factored their effects on Erk in his battle stats, so him supporting other people does nothing else.
Erk's not making people better - both Serra and Priscilla have a full roster regardless of whether Erk supports them or not. It's slightly faster in Priscilla's case (and slower than most in Serra's), but since they're healers, they don't care at all, since they don't fight. Plus, Erk runs the risk of taking someone else's support spot, and then he's making other people _worse_. For Pent, he sometimes takes a Canas spot, and at other times he helps Pent...but Pent doesn't really need any help whatsoever anyway.
Ninian - best player phase offense or best player phase misc action - mobility increase (huge normally, very huge if Ninian gets Boots, and makes Rescue a very viable strategy) - always adding to EXP rank - personal rings - costs absolutely nothing (which allows other units to cost a lot more) vs Erk - earlygame help - attacks on enemy phase
It's ok, you've got four weeks now before I return from France and read it. 8) |
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4:35 PM Nov 8
