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| Final Tier List? | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 14 2008, 06:54 PM (1,235 Views) | |
| +Cubic | Jul 14 2008, 06:54 PM Post #1 |
ZA WARUDO
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Top: Matthew Ninian Priscilla Lowen Kent Raven Sain High: Serra Hector Oswin Erk Marcus Florina Guy Harken Geitz Eliwood Fiora Legault Mid: Pent Athos Rebecca Lyn Isadora Dorcas Lucius Canas Low: Hawkeye Dart Karel Louise Vaida Farina Heath Rath Jaffar Wil Nino Bartre Bottom: Wallace Karla Renault With some input from Solid. 
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Jul 14 2008, 07:01 PM Post #2 |
 
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Hm... Ninian above Lowen. Serra to Top. Priscilla/Serra above Lowen/Kent/Sain. Oswin lower, Erk higher, Guy higher, Geitz lower, Lyn lower (below Rebecca), Pent to High tier, Rebecca to top of Mid, Heath higher, Lucius to at least Mid, Canas to above Louise/Karel/Hawkeye, who should probably be in Low, and put him in Mid. Dart maybe to Mid too. Florina below Marcus... I have more but meh. Those are just the things that caught my eye the most. Unless this is non-HHM, in which case some of my suggestions shall change. |
| this is the best Brawl match ever....EVER | |
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| Linoud | Jul 14 2008, 09:27 PM Post #3 |
Knight of Seven
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Yknow I never really cared about Tiers but, just stating two or three of my favorite characters are Top tier makes me lulz. Matthew, Sain, and Raven. 
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| Former Guest | Jul 14 2008, 11:10 PM Post #4 |
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What is the point of this thread? Top debaters are already well underway on another one, so let them have the final word. This one still needs a lot of work. I don't know what your beef is with Guy or what your interest in Karel could possibly be: he's the third most worthless unit in the game who deprives you of a far better unit combat- and support-wise for crissakes, this is common sense. Try again. Might help if you actually started to debate this game first. Matthew Guy Raven Serra Ninian Lowen Priscilla Kent Sain Oswin Hector Marcus Erk Pent Harken Eliwood Florina Geitz Lucius Fiora Canas Athos Isadora Legault Lyn Rebecca Hawkeye Dorcas Bartre Jaffar Rath Dart Farina Heath Louise Vaida Wil Nino Renault Karel Wallace Karla My personal ordering-in-progress. 
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| +Cubic | Jul 14 2008, 11:33 PM Post #5 |
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ZA WARUDO
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Huh, maybe you should stop talking out of your ass. Solid already told me that he, Reikken and WJC likely won't be making a tier list anytime soon, since they can't agree on anything. |
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| Former Guest | Jul 14 2008, 11:48 PM Post #6 |
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Uh.........maybe you should read what I said. Who cares if Reikken/Solide/WJC haven't posted decisive lists of their own? They still participate in the real tier list thread, which is over there. It's meant to cultivate healthy ongoing discussion over what characters generally fit where in order of value between those who know what they're talking about since they've cleared, S-ranked and actually debated HHM before. |
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| C475_1337 | Jul 15 2008, 01:50 AM Post #7 |
One serious d00d
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Uh, I didn't get any memo about a tierlist that I'm currently participating in or working on, though if Solide and Reikken approached me with the idea of compiling another one I likely would indeed join them for a long chat about it, hopefully over tea & crumpets. However, I would not ever refer to any tier list as "final" or "decisive" or anything like that; tierlists are always open to change, this stuff is subjective enough that no tierlist will ever be objectively perfect. Anyway, don't feel like critiquing this one ATM, though I must disagree with Solide's suggestion of moving Dart to Mid, and indeed I'm inclined to say he's currently too high. The worth of Funds help/hurt in general is highly debatable, but if you've got Matthew at the very top, that means you consider it to be quite significant, in which case Dart deserves to be near the bottom, as he's like the opposite of Matthew. Ofcourse, there is the option of simply not promoting Dart, but I'm not sure how well 20/0 Pirate Dart is going to stack up against promoted units for the mid-late gaem, especially considering his Exp Rank anti-haxing. |
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| Super Saiyan SolidSense | Jul 15 2008, 11:21 AM Post #8 |
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lawl @ saying that I participate. I chime in like, once every other topic to say something that I usually don't follow up on anyway. and lawl @ calling that topic the "real tier list." There's certainly nothing to suggest that it is . . . the characters aren't even ordered within tiers in that tier list, making it largely meh anyway.
What j00 talkin' bout, Willis? I've never S-Ranked HHM. I simply debaet; playin' FE comes second to that.
word. I'd like to compile a tier list between just the three of us and see what happens. I know that we disagree on a lot of things, like Dart. |
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 5 2008, 02:39 PM Post #9 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Karel is absolute bottom tier. Pent needs to move up to around where Marcus is. Heath should move up a few spots due to HHM boosts. This list only counts HHM, right? Top: Matthew Priscilla Lowen Kent Raven Ninian Serra Sain Oswin High: Hector Erk Marcus Pent Guy Harken Geitz Eliwood Florina Legault Mid: Athos Rebecca Lyn Fiora Isadora Dorcas Lucius Canas Dart Low: Hawkeye Heath Louise Vaida Farina Rath Jaffar Nino Bartre Wil Bottom: Wallace Karel Karla Renault |
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| Mekkah | Sep 6 2008, 12:49 PM Post #10 |
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Why is Karel so neccessarily Bottom tier? Brave Sword isn't an omgwtfhuge loss, and neither is Harken (the net loss is basically Harken's worth vs Karel's worth). Wil > Nino and Bartre? Wil has absolutely nothing on Bartre. For Nino, they're all pretty terrible at combat, but Nino is almost a must-use for EXP rank. What are Legault, Athos, Rebecca and Lyn doing between Florina and Fiora? They're pretty much the same unit for most of the time. Canas is much better than you're giving him credit for. 1-2 range + staves + Nosferatu + Luna + B Pent is much better than most people in Mid can offer, especially Rebecca. Heath "should be higher because of HHM bonuses"? Heath fails at everything when he joins and that never changes. Jaffar, for example, is not around a whole lot, but when he is he's quite decent. That >>> lots of failure. |
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 7 2008, 02:36 AM Post #11 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Harken is at least twice as good as Karel, so it's indeed pretty terrible to get Karel instead instead. The Brave Sword is much better than the Wo Doa. Harken actually offers supports to the team while Karel really doesn't. I forgot to move Wil down. Fiora isn't that special. In fact, I've always found her to be quite terrible. Florina will have lots of earlygame time and supports under her belt before Fiora even exists, as well as a sizable level lead of nearly 10 if she's actively in play thanks to Lyn's little part of the game. Florina crushes Fiora in offense for pretty much the whole game. I think I made some topic at FEP explaining that Canas is really overrated. When he joins, he dies in 2 hits from anything and can't one-round anything. In fact, he pretty much can't one-round anything until he promotes. Since he sucks at countering due to fraility, his 1~2 range isn't a benefit until he promotes beyond him being able to attack on his turn safely. Nosferatu and Luna are pretty situational, as well as limited and expensive. Rebecca has lots of earlygame time doing what Canas would be doing later, which is just pecking at enemies and hiding behind everyone else. She'll be at a higher level than Canas and actually have supports before Canas joins. Competition for the first Orion's Bolt doesn't even exist, so she'll promote without problems much sooner than Canas will because of her level lead and not having several good units wanting her promotional item. Heath can sit on your team and just peck at enemies and occassionally get kills and still be a much better unit than Jaffar by the time Jaffar finally joins. Saying that Heath's failure never changes is absurd. He has good growths and powerful bases for his level. He gains EXP quickly. Where is this Heath hate coming from? |
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| Mekkah | Sep 7 2008, 05:02 AM Post #12 |
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You might not even be using Harken anyway, in which case there's no penalty. Brave Sword is better, but not by so much that it matters. Your sword users don't really care about taking counters, and it also hurts their Avo. It may help Lowen to double more reliably, that's it. Supports? Yeah, two or three Cs by endgame, maybe a B with Isadora, who is only Mid tier anyway. The people who Harken supports can also support each other for the most part.
Uhh, lots of supports? She'll have C Lyn. She can't have Fiora, Farina, Ninian or Nino yet obviously. Serra takes 81 turns, Hector 38. The 22-turn B with Lyn probably won't be there either - they don't start together in Noble Lady, then they have Whereabouts Unknown I guess, then Port of Badon Lyn is not getting fielded, while Florina's only use is getting houses (she gets raped by pirates). Then Dread Isle and Fiora joins.
So, you suggest that Florina is nearly 17/0 when Fiora joins? Lol. Maybe assuming she gets 1.3 levels per chapter, that's ~16/0 for her, but obviously you can't gain 1.3 levels per Lyn Mode chapter (lol L1 enemies, plus other people want EXP too), and Florina is heavily restricted in Noble Lady, Whereabouts Unknown and Port of Badon (and also Pirate Ship to an extent). If Florina is really that far ahead, she's a candidate for EXP rank raping. It's more like being 7/0 at the end of Lyn Mode, and from there 1.3 level for three chapters (she's in four, but gotta take into account the bow restriction). We'll say 11/0. 7/0 Fiora Iron Lance: 15.0 atk, 10.0 AS - - 26.0 avo, 21.0 hp, 6.0 def, 7.0 res 11/0 Florina (C Lyn) Iron Lance: 17.0 atk, 10.5 AS - - 33.0 avo, 23.0 hp, 5.5 def, 7.5 res I see Florina winning, but not crushing. Now Fiora catches up. 17/0 Fiora (C Sain, C Florina) Iron Lance: 20.5 atk, 14.9 AS - - 38.8 avo, 28.0 hp, 8.0 def, 12.0 res 18/0 Florina (B Lyn, C Fiora) Iron Lance: 21.8 atk, 14.1 AS - - 43.7 avo, 27.2 hp, 7.5 def, 10.9 res Lol, it's getting debatable now. 20/2 Fiora (B Sain, B Florina) Iron Lance: 25.9 atk, 17.5 AS - - 45.2 avo, 35.8 hp, 11.8 def, 17.0 res 20/2 Florina (A Lyn, B Florina) Iron Lance: 27.0 atk, 16.4 AS - - 49.8 avo, 34.0 hp, 10.0 def, 14.0 res Still no huge difference. Obviously Florina is better, but the two should be pretty much together on any tier list, with Florina one spot above Fiora, imo. I mean, how would you justify that a unit can be better than one, but not the other?
I already told you that topic is trash. Based on logic from the Stone Age. "lol canas costs so much more money and he's worse than Erk and Lucius so no need 4 him"
peoples aren't one-rounding yet anyway. For dying in two hits... 8/0 Canas - 21 HP, 5 Def, 8 Res 12/0 Erk - 24.1 HP, 4.2 Def, 8.4 Res 15/0 Serra - 24 HP, 4.1 Def, 12.7 Res And these people are in High.
He survives one hit from most enemies, two hits from Nomads/Mercs. Enough to be exposed when desired. And then he rapes magic, like in 19x, he can sit outside the barrier raping all those Mages, and on Pirate Ship, he's decent against Shamans.
The same could be said for Hector's Wolf Beil. Except Canas gets more of these. Expensive? Silver Card > funds.
Except Canas can actually fight on enemy phase sometimes, doesn't take counters from Archers and has hax Res. And then Canas gets close to promotion/promotes and gets hax staves and can rape enemies on enemy phase with no worries.
10/0 Rebecca, C Lowen Iron Bow: 14.6 atk, 11.4 AS - - 36.3 avo, 22.4 hp, 4.3 def, 3.7 res 8/0 Canas Flux: 17.0 atk, 7.0 AS - - 21.0 avo, 21.0 hp, 5.0 def, 8.0 res 4.4 AS, 1.4 hp, 15.3 avo vs 2.4 atk, 0.7 def, 4.3 res, 1-range, hits on Res ~_~
You get three Guiding Rings and the Earth Seal until Ch24, which is pretty much Canas' natural promotion time anyways. Usually you have one healer + Erk already in play, so you'd need old frail Lucius or a secondary healer for Canas to even need the Earth Seal. Rebecca's level lead shrinks, however, due to Canas having faster natural EXP gain and the option of fighting on enemy phase, so they might just promote at the same time.
http://www.feplanet.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=32331 http://www.feplanet.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=26676 In case you didn't notice, Heath's offense and defense fail. Yes, he has high bases for his level. But his level is insanely low. Nino and Farina could boast the same. If Heath pecks at an enemy, he's going to take a counter. That, or he's stealing a kill that someone else sets up for him, which is just as fail. Or he uses a Javelin - more fail, this time in the hit department. He doesn't gain EXP quickly - again, for his level, yes, but his inferior combat performance doesn't allow him to fight as often as good peoples, so that cancels out, and then he may not even get fielded in some maps due to limited space and being outright terrible (think Genesis), so even less Heath then. Jaffar, however, has niches such as Lockpicking and *gasp* one-rounding CoD Valks at base level. And EXP bonus (class) + EXP bonus (Silencer). |
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| +Ema Skye | Sep 8 2008, 12:23 AM Post #13 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Even if you're not using Harken, you're losing out on a weapon that lets slow people double or lets you not take counters. On top of not getting the weapon as well as a very good unit, you're getting a sucky unit. Karel is abysmal. His durability is nearly bottom tier due to his terrible HP and his Def is nothing special. He also not only lacks supports in general, but his affinity sucks for not giving Evd.
Lots of time, not really lots of supports. You appeared to have completely skipped the Pirate Ship chapter, which easily gives Florina and Lyn their B and the C with Hector if you do that support.
B Lyn. You forgot a whole chapter where Florina is actually awesome. Which also boosts her level. I also find her to be absolutely necessary in Lyn's mode to S Tactics, meaning she gets 1 more level than you gave her from my experiences. So Florina is actually better than what you put down, and the gap is pretty big at first. The gap at first is larger, which means the rest of the stuff you put down is a bit inaccurate. I see more than one spot of difference between them.
Marcus is one-rounding. Erk often does. Hector, Lyn, Oswin, and Sain can OHKO with slayer/prf weapons. Kent can one-round sometimes. Guy can sometimes. Canas's offense when he first joins is bottom tier. He can't double and he doesn't even do more with his one hit than anyone else would with their turn. And he can actually miss, lol. I'd put Erk a bit higher in level, tbqh. He has a large portion of Lyn's story and then he joins pretty early in HHM. I'd put him at 14/0 at the point Canas joins. Erk's generally not taking attacks, and even when he is, he's much better off than Canas with hopefully C Serra by now and better Evd by a lot. Why does Serra's defensive parameters really matter, btw? You also left out her Evd, lol.
He survives a single enemy. Enemies attack in groups and love picking on crappy units like Canas. He'll die. Anyone can rape those low level, shitty enemies.
Hector won't need the Wolf Beil to one-round anymore by the time it breaks, and he does get another one. Canas gets 2 Lunas and Nosferatus, IIRC, and both are very heavy and only situationally good.
If Canas had good durability, then he could fight on enemy phase well, but he really can't. When Rebecca gets attacked, it's not like she gets hit anyways. Her Evd is generally the highest in the game. In fact, I'm nearly certain her Evd is the best in the game, and then her HP/Def/Res are enough to make up for getting hit twice anyways. Rebecca kills anything she attacks without much problems later on. She has the same period of suck early on that Canas does, except hers starts earlier and she has supports and less suck by the time Canas joins. Her suck period is also the same as Marcus's God period, so there's a God around to make sure she's fine.
Man, I'm never going to understand why every other top debater puts units 1-2 levels lower than what I get them to in the game, and I'm a Marcus/Oswin lover. >_>;
Uh...no, they will not promote at the same time. Canas dies if he fights on the enemy phase. Priscilla is amazing and almost always in play, so that's usually three promotional items already taken up for the magic users. I concede about Heath. I forgot to take Jaffar's EXP boost and utility against those faggot Valks into account. |
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| Light Yagami | Sep 8 2008, 01:12 AM Post #14 |
Time is money and money is power. So, of course my ultimate goal is to have power over time
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I think Karla should get the very last spot  And I guess I missed a lot....serra is so high in the list o__o |
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| Mekkah | Sep 8 2008, 01:37 AM Post #15 |
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People double anyway, since enemies are slow ass. The only person this sword makes a difference for is Lowen. He has 55 base evade, which is fine since enemies carry lolSteel now, and 56.5 base Crt, that soon turns into 61 due to S Swords. And then 130% evade growth. Like Jaffar, he doubles those ass Valkyries at base level. He didn't cost anything yet, so he can use Lancereavers (you can buy them in FFO and Battle Preparations) which give 30% evade and 2 Def against lancers. Any support difference between Karel and Harken is lol. By the time they get a C with anyone, the game is about over. The people Harken supports pretty much support each other fine too, and obviously they'd prefer supports that start before endgame.
24 turns in two chapters and maybe a tiny bit of Noble Lady, while Lyn is one of the most inflexible units (low durability + 1-range)? 38 turns during the same time, while Hector is always on the way to seize? Supports don't grow that fast, but even if they did, then Fiora's supports would be finished earlier too, so lol. An extra level isn't going to make a difference - the comparison remains awfully close.
B Lyn just gives her another +1 Atk, and being 12/0 instead of 11/0 obviously gives a very marginal boost.
Slayer weapons are hardly available, just one lolHorseslayer. Marcus, Erk, Wolf Beil, Mani Katti, sure. Kent only one rounds shit like Shamans, maybe Steel Bow Archers or something. Guy generally misses out on the KO due to low Str + swords, perhaps with B Matthew and a Steel Sword or something, but Matthew isn't in range so often anymore. Canas has 84 hit before enemy evade, which is generally lol. Even a 15 evade enemy still gives him 81% real. Someone like Hector isn't doing much better, if any at all. Of course, pretty much everyone you named is God tier, or is in their prime of their offense (Lyn, Marcus, Oswin).
2 levels extra is like one point of HP, maybe one of Def. Canas takes as much counters as Erk, so moot. C Serra? 79 turns in 5 chapters? Those maps Erk is in aren't even 16 turns long, and yet that's what's needed for it to be at C right now.
Matter, not really. Just that they're somewhat similiar to Canas. Of course, she still wins, but not by so much as to call Serra's durability good and Canas' Bottom Tier.
He generally survives two enemies. Enough to be exposed to a few and counter them (something, say, Rebecca cannot do). And no, not anyone is raping "low level enemies" yet. Shamans can be one rounded by a lot, sure, but they do a pretty load of damage to almost everyone but Erk and Lucius, so Canas luring them helps. Same for Mages, except they are harder to one round. Nomads generally are too fast to be one rounded unless you're going to go all Marcus or Prf on them. Most people cannot counter Archers without getting bleh combat parameters.etc
Canas doesn't need Luna often, but when he does, he becomes hax - Cog of Destiny is his paradise. He's a Valkyrie's worst nightmare. He's the only 1-2 range unit with high Res that doesn't do crap damage to them (Javelin Peggies are next in line, but those don't double). Hector only gets another Wolf Beil after The Berserker, while Canas has a copy of each of his weapons from the Dread Isle, and then a Luna from the desert, and another Nosferatu somewhere. They are heavy, yeah, but when he needs them, he often isn't doubling to begin with, or it doesn't matter that it changes. Since he's 1~2 range, his lowered evasion doesn't matter on player phase, and Luna is mostly slaying bosses who cannot really take advantage, while Nosferatu brings up durability by a huge amount anyway.
He doesn't fight _well_ on enemy phase, but he can do it sometimes, and usually 2HKOs. And then later on he does get reasonable durability and can take advantage of it, while Rebecca cannot take advantage of her Avo. No matter how good her durability gets, her getting attacked is undesirable.
She's barely beating Canas, if at all, when Canas joins. For there being a God around, I see you used that as a point against Canas (lol Marcus can one round) and now it's a point in Rebecca's favor that he's owning so much? Nice.
Maybe you babied her. 9 levels in 7 chapters is almost exactly 1.3 levels per chapter, which is what is usually given to everyone. And Rebecca cannot fight on enemy phase, and isn't good at hurting or killing to begin with, so if anything I was being nice to her.
Amazing counter. Anyway, Canas probably prefers promoting as soon as an item becomes available for him due to staves.
Only time he gets one-rounded is his joining chapter, which Rebecca dies in as well.
And you get an Earth Seal in addition to that, and the other Guiding Ringers make each other less likely to be in play to begin with (since you don't want promotion troubles), and the worth of Priscilla decreases by a lot if you already have Serra in play in addition to more people who get staves quickly. That amazingness mostly comes from those staves, since she's actually quite underleveled with no really fast gains, plus horrid durability. |
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1:57 PM Nov 23
