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| "Redistribution of Wealth" | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 29 2008, 08:02 PM (845 Views) | |
| Yzarc | Nov 11 2008, 11:14 PM Post #61 |
Coxian
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Personal Experience ftl. You know that. The fact is, the majority of the people in the lower class don't even make it to lower middle class. They just maintain the status quo.
Yes, but they knew to get a good education, and how to invest their money. You really need to lose the idea that hard work pays off, because that's not true. The concept that rich people work harder, and so deserve more money, is false in every aspect. The only difference is that they were raised to know the best course of action to take. They know that education and investments may pay off in the long run, but quite often people living in poverty don't have the luxury of even getting an education beyond high school. Instead, they jump right into work, not climbing out of the lower class, but remaining impoverished. You've heard the saying "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer"? It's true, but that doesn't make it right. Poor people get in debt, which actually makes them more poor, regardless of how hard they work. Hard work is irrelevant to income. |
  
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| Simon | Nov 12 2008, 06:29 PM Post #62 |
The strongest among you may not wear a crown
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I fail to see how my example isn't a good one. In fact, I think it's the quintessential example of what I'm trying to bring up -- that, despite the fact that it may (and pretty much always does) take multiple generations to move in the socioeconomic spectrum, it does and, with effort, will happen, and your flippant, unsupported dismissal of such does not make it false.
...I'm stunned. Honestly. How in the world can you say hard work doesn't pay off? You want a perfect example that happens every year several times in this country? National Merit Finalists. Depending on the results of one's PSAT/NMSQT -- you know, the test junior year that EVERYONE, regardless of socioeconomic conditions, must take -- one may become a National Merit Semifinalist, and get a relatively small amount of money towards college. That's great, but the main thing is that from there one takes another test and may qualify for National Merit Finalists. Several are chosen every year and those that are chosen get four years of college, completely paid for by the organization that runs the entire program. Obviously, anybody has an opportunity to become a National Merit Finalist. And the entire PSAT is basic high school knowledge that even the worst of high schools will have taught by then; someone motivated to succeed and make a better living for themselves can master these concepts, learn test-taking strategies, and have a decent shot at some scholarship money. What's more, some states (Louisiana, in particular) may pay for tuition completely with certain academic criteria met; for example, Louisiana will pay all of your college tuition plus $800 if you have a 3.0 core GPA with an ACT test score of 26 during your senior year. That is certainly achievable regardless of the status of the school the student in question attends; and if you want the minimum requirements (no extra cash, but full tuition): 2.0 GPA, 23 ACT, IIRC. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that there are enough opportunities to get to college that hard work is by no means worthless at all. ...Of course, with the whole "redistribution of wealth" deal supposedly being implemented, the value of hard work might be taking a nosedive. Another thing. I never said that rich people worked harder than everyone else and thus deserve more; what I did say was that they worked hard, really hard, to get to where they are, and to say "You don't deserve this" when their money came from the work they did is simply ignorant. If I agree to pay you else a certain amount of money over a certain amount of time for a certain amount of work, and you meet the time and work requirements laid out, and I give you that certain amount of money, what right does, say, Sentenal have to say "Yzarc, you don't deserve that money, I'm taking it from you" and then to give it to someone else because they don't have as much? If you want to give that money, OK, that's fine; but why should someone else have a right to tell you how to spend, use, or give YOUR money? |
Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
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| Yzarc | Nov 12 2008, 07:45 PM Post #63 |
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Coxian
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Because your family is an exception to the rule. Do some research on social mobility before you start claiming your example is at all representative. It's true, most people believe that mobility is great in the United States, and I suppose you're no exception. This is most likely due to the media emphasizing the "Rags to Riches" story, made popular by Horatio Alger. Alger's stories are, as Gregory Mantsios put it, myths. They happen on rare and exceptional circumstances. Seriously dude, google social mobility in America and I promise you you're very very unlikely to find anything credible that supports the idea that mobility is anything but extraordinarily rare. There are various reasons for this, but it boils down to poor education and different socialization.
Because I know it doesn't always pay off. My dad works 70 hour weeks, and he makes enough to basically live, while there are lawyers that work less than 20 hours a week and live quite handsomely. I would certainly argue that my dad works a hell of a lot harder than those lawyers, and even most of his bosses who get paid more than him. And I know. I know. Personal experience. But look at the facts, a huge number of people work over 50 hours a week (27%) and you're not working that much if you don't have to. And if you have to, you probably don't get much more out of that than necessities. It's a fact of America, dog. Doesn't matter how hard you work, it's most likely not going to get you out of your class situation.
Rofl. Standardized tests are the great equalizer! Oh joy! Everyone in the nation has an equal chance of being a merit scholar! Standardized tests are ridiculous, and they are incredibly biased against the lower class, who do tend to have poor education. Now, you claim that the SAT is fair to all classes. Prove it, kid. Show me the data that says people of lower class do remotely similar on standardized tests than people of the middle and upper class.
Wow. I guess only Louisiana could afford to give every single person who landed such...mediocre scores full college tuition. I guess that's beside the point. Then again, your point right there was irrelevant, because doing well on a standardized test is often class related.
That'd be true if you redistributed 100% of wealth, but then we'd be a communist state, and I'm not at all for that. Even with higher taxes on the rich, there are incentives for being rich. One such incentive of being rich is, uh, being rich! Your taxes are higher, but you still make more money, so...Yeah.
Then why do they deserve to have more money? They work hard, but they don't work harder, so what's the difference? What's the difference between the rich and the poor if it isn't hard work? It's class!!
Okay. So they work really hard. What about all the poor people that work really hard? What about all the poor people who work harder than the rich people? I am in no way saying the some people deserve more money than others or that the poor deserve more money than the rich, or that the rich don't deserve any of their money. But look at the data and tell me something doesn't have to be done. http://www.cbpp.org/7-10-06inc.htm The top 1% controls nearly 20% of the wealth The top .1% controls nearly 10% of the wealth. And here's the kicker - The gap is widening! The middle class is becoming smaller and stratification is imminent or, more truthfully, already in play. If things continue we will move from a class society to a caste society, and I think that goes against everything America stands for, yet the conservatives, ever ignorant of social sciences, refuse to change the status quo due to, I don't know, fear of change. You tell me a caste society would be good, and I'll cease this argument right now. Not because I agree with you, but because I know, as a fact, that we are arguing for two fundamentally different Americas. Edited by Yzarc, Nov 12 2008, 11:08 PM.
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8:25 AM Nov 29
