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| Christians | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 26 2008, 09:15 PM (678 Views) | |
| Asvel | Nov 26 2008, 10:43 PM Post #16 |
Grandiloquent Panjandrum
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Whaaaat? Where did that come from?  @Simon: I don't have a big problem with gun ownership, it's just those guys that use them to shoot people because they're contradicting their beliefs. As for intelligent design, I don't really have a position, but I think the belief's more characteristic of deism. The 5,000-years-ago belief is pretty hard to accept, though. |
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| Soja | Nov 26 2008, 10:48 PM Post #17 |
Gentle Water, Crashing Waves
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A lot of people think Voltaire was an atheist, but he was a deist. Most philosophers disgruntled with the Church and its abuses still couldn't bring themselves to deny the existence of God or a superior force in the Universe. Deism is the non-religious person's faith, although Voltaire still had a chapel in his villa. |
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| cool story bro | Nov 26 2008, 11:10 PM Post #18 |
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I guess I worded it poorly, my bad. What Soja said is correct. |
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| Captain Bravo | Nov 26 2008, 11:13 PM Post #19 |
You play my nerves like strings
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You're very right, man. That's a great example of the very thing that scares me about people. I think it's these Christians that are turning many people away from faith, which, in and of itself, is a very beautiful thing in my opinion. We are called to be like Christ. He preached love, not ignorance. It's just that kind of thing that irritates me. It's been bothering me for a while now, and it really hit hard during the election process. As well, I happen to accept the possibilities proposed by the theories of modern science. The earth's age, how we living creatures got here. Nowhere in scripture is it said how God created anything. And, since God is a being outside of time, how can we slap an arbitrary number on the earth's age? |
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What happens if I can't check my MySpace when we get there? Formerly Levin, Glen, Gale, Sailor Neptune, Erk (At the old FEFF)  I'm reviving my forum Brand of Flame. If you're interested in helping out, or just stopping by Here is the link. | |
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| Laharl | Nov 27 2008, 02:13 AM Post #20 |
Narcissistic Bastard With A Hint Of Mental Insanity Or Mentally Insane With A Hint Of Narcissism
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I guess I would call myself Christian, but I prefer to avoid these different lables religion so often throws around. Is it not possible to believe in and worship God without being labled as 'Jewish' or 'Catholic '?
Edited by Laharl, Nov 27 2008, 02:16 AM.
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| Soja | Nov 27 2008, 02:31 AM Post #21 |
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves
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Yes. |
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| Shinobi | Nov 27 2008, 03:11 AM Post #22 |
絶望した！！！
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i don't like how religeon is becoming more political. it says in the constitution that there should be a nessecary seperation from church and state. Not everyone, but there are those who use religion to push their personal agenda. Not everyone that is a Christian acts like one. Don’t judge an entire religion on such few. That goes for Christians AND Muslims. People always say how this country was found on Christian principles. That much is true. But the founding fathers also thought it would be necessary to put in the Constitution that there should be a separation of Church and State, (http://www.au.org/site/PageServer ) which means that the country is not supposed to be run by religion alone. There is nothing wrong with being religious. But you should realize that not every man in America is a devout Christian. The first amendment of the Bill of Rights says that every American has the Freedom of Speech. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” (Bill of Rights). That means that a Muslim gets the same rights as a Christian. In America we do not FORCFULLY assault or discourage religion. But it has come to my attention that we DO in fact force our religion on others and judge them, not as Americans, but as enemies, or terrorists. The reason why they took Christianity out of schools is not because they hate Jesus. It is to protect the right of those that are not Christians. Because they get bullied, put down, isolated, and looked down upon. Which means that Christianity was directly in fault of infringing other people’s rights as an American. I am not anti-Christian nor am I anti-American, but because of how you have been taught, many will want you to think I am anti-American or anti-Christian. When you vote, it is not about “well this guy loves Jesus!!!. Imam gonna vote fer him!” It’s about the rights that are being infringed upon in the name of a religion. There is nothing wrong with religion. But it has little place in politics. It is nice to know that the fate of your country rests with a person with similar convictions as yourself. But you should not ignore those who have different convictions. christianity in general has a tendency to teach others differently. Do you think that IN AMERICA, anyone that does not atleast claim to be a christian has a chance to be president? it should be Majority rule, with minority rights. instead we are making extra "unwritten" rules to keep those in power with power. i dont like it any more than you. but that is how it is. |
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| Nick | Nov 27 2008, 07:53 AM Post #23 |
Brit
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People are concerned about hardline religious groups who try to bring their religion into places where it doesn't belong, because religious people who don't may as well not be religious for society's general purposes. I routinely find out that people I've known for so many years have a religion - usually Christianity, but occasionally Jainism or Hinduism - which I never knew, because we have always understood that there was no reason for me to know. The world besides Richard Dawkins doesn't care about people holding private religious beliefs, or belonging to religious communities. It's when religion starts to affect them that they care. |
| jesus somebody get onto msn | |
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| Conan O'Brien | Nov 27 2008, 11:52 AM Post #24 |
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SKILLNADEN ÄR DRINKABILITY
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I'm willing to bet that's an infinitely small number. Of the top of my head, there was the time some guy killed a Sikh in the aftermath of 9/11 because he had a turban, and Mark Shepherd. 2 jerks in a sea of Christians, it's arguable. The way I see it, for every bigoted, false, whatever Christian, there's also some smug irreligious jerk who things that religion is for imbeciles and that Christianity is the bane of existence, i.e. Black_Knight. I don't see why saying a hurricane was the wrath of God is worse than saying you wish the terrorists on 9/11 had hit Red States(Michael Moore). People are morons, some are morons in spite of their religious upbringings. As for religion and politics, I never saw that there was anything inherently negative about it. A lot of social movements today and in the past were almost entirely fueled by religion. The pro-life movement, abolition, the civil rights movement, the woman's suffrage movement, etc. When religion dictates the moral actions of over 80% of Americans, it's inevitable it will guide them as to how they vote. I had the pleasure of becoming the vast religious minority when I attended the University of Notre Dame, where 85% of students and faculty are Catholic. And let me say, no one has treated me badly about it. I've been forced to attend one mass at the beginning of the year, but let me say I grinned and bore it. The religious people in the country have never DEMANDED you attend church, right? I agree with above posters when I say the fire insurance Christians are the ones who reflect most badly on the faith. Say what you will about Pat Robertson and firebrand pastors, at least their trying to live up to a life for Jesus, even if they misinterpret what that means. But they just call themselves Christians, and then they turn their back on it all. Belief isn't enough you know. As Jesus point it, "Even the demons believe, but they will not be saved." I disagree completely with Shinobi's interpretation of the First Amendment, but that's an argument for another day. Let it suffice to say that the Framer's intention varies greatly from a what a lot of activist judges decided it meant. |
~~Wind Sword
Touching. Scientology
Smartest post ever made. | |
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| Captain Bravo | Nov 27 2008, 11:54 AM Post #25 |
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You play my nerves like strings
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That's the ignorance of a good portion of Americans today. That is not to say a majority, but there are people who sincerely think that their religious points of view are more right than everyone else. They seem to think they have some divine right to oppress others. Not only is this hypocritical and damaging to the world's outlook on Christians, but it also comes back full-circle from the ignorant non-Christians that fight back. That blame and scorn often fall on the shoulders of the Christians that really believe in equality and following Jesus's command to "love thy neighbor." The cycle of injustice and intolerance that's been caused by so many people who are unwilling to accept others is uncalled for and unforgivable. What I'd like to say is that it isn't solely the fault of these Christians I've mentioned, but also the equally ignorant [of what I hope is a] minority of non-Christians who fan the flames. I think it's part of the elitist American ideas that have been force-fed to us since our childhoods. John McCain even played to that tune while he was running for the presidency, because he knew so many Americans sincerely believed that we were the best country in the world. Newsflash: There are countries more wealthy than the United States now, with higher literacy rates, better job opportunities, etc. We aren't necessarily the best. I could go off-topic, I guess, and start on the path of how ignorance will probably cause the downfall of the country, but I think just mentioning it is sufficient. |
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What happens if I can't check my MySpace when we get there? Formerly Levin, Glen, Gale, Sailor Neptune, Erk (At the old FEFF) I'm reviving my forum Brand of Flame. If you're interested in helping out, or just stopping by Here is the link. | |
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| Psiwri | Nov 27 2008, 07:39 PM Post #26 |
Too Many Words
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It feels to me like some sort of change or (r)evolution of American values is creeping it's way here, and slowly accelerating. Why? Because our science and technology is always accelerating. People are changing more slowly than the world around them and eventually that widening gap is going to cause something to cave in. /random That should probably be a topic all it's own, as for Christianity... I find it factually wrong, but the intentions and purpose are good. |
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| Captain Bravo | Nov 27 2008, 10:38 PM Post #27 |
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You play my nerves like strings
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This wasn't intended to start a religious debate on its fundamentals, because that will incur its own arguments, but what you said above that is more to the tune of on-topic, actually, and I agree with you, to a point. I simply think we're finally getting to the point where a large portion of Americans are realizing that tolerance of everyone is far from being achieved in the country today. |
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What happens if I can't check my MySpace when we get there? Formerly Levin, Glen, Gale, Sailor Neptune, Erk (At the old FEFF) I'm reviving my forum Brand of Flame. If you're interested in helping out, or just stopping by Here is the link. | |
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| Conan O'Brien | Nov 28 2008, 10:35 AM Post #28 |
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SKILLNADEN ÄR DRINKABILITY
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This I think, is an unfair critique. One of the key tenets of Christianity is that God exists, and he is the only God. For a Christian to say that the truths of Christianity are no more true than Buddhism, atheism, or Islam is to deny what it means to be a Christian. I sincerely believe my religious views are more right than others, It's what it means to even believe something. Christians say God exists, Hindus believe in many gods, atheists believe in no gods. Only one of them can be right. It would be foolish to say they are equally right, because it's simply impossible. Even within sects of religions, they still differ on key theological and historical points. Either Joseph Smith was a prophet, or he wasn't. Either Jesus was a madman, the Son of God, or just a good man. These are historical facts. If one historian said "Oswald shot Kennedy" and another said "Someone else shot Kennedy", no one would dare say they were both subjectively correct. But people are apt to say that two wildly differing religious views on, say, the Prophet Mohammed, are equally right. Bull. In spite of any politically correct feel-good crap answer, one's wrong, one's right, regardless of what people believe. Every religion holds that their religion is more right than the other religions, including atheism. The only people that can legitimately claim their religion is no more true than others is agnostics, only because they admit they know nothing about the divine. |
~~Wind Sword
Touching. Scientology
Smartest post ever made. | |
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| Nick | Nov 28 2008, 11:40 AM Post #29 |
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Brit
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I believe that what Jordan meant was that some Christians believe that their religious beliefs give them an Earthly superiority to others, rather than just the belief that they are right and their opponents are wrong. Naturally, anyone who holds a set belief is under the impression that they are right; this is why they believe it. The problems and ignorance occur when these beliefs are translated into material actions - by people who do not understand that their beliefs inherently give them a passive advantage over the nonbelievers. Eternal torture in hell, reincarnation as an untouchable, karma - these are the judgements of religion, and believers should be able to satisfy themselves with this. Obviously, the alternative is for every religion to assert its members superiority over others and convert them by force or kill them. The problems with this are both moral and rational. The moral issue is that it goes against the guiding principles of most religions. However, if this principle was universally acknowledged as sound (through whatever justification), the amount of death that would be caused globally would completely ruin humanity, and in this day and age, it would ruin the Earth itself. It would be an environmental, economic and humanitarian catastrophe, and would be utterly illogical. What would be achieved at the end? There would be no more nonbelievers on Earth, but they were going to hell anyway - it merely speeds up the process. The victorious religion would in all probability be all but obliterated, too. The amount that would be achieved in relation to what was lost is laughably pathetic. It's for this reason that I'm against people bringing their ideas of personal superiority due to religion into the real world: if one person can do it, logically anyone who holds a belief can. I'm an atheist myself, and find all theistic or supernatural justifications for violence equally disturbing and ridiculous, but it should be clear to everyone that if they go down that road, anyone can challenge them to prove that their religion is superior... macho-style. ...wow, that was longer than intended. Edited by Nick, Nov 28 2008, 11:43 AM.
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| Conan O'Brien | Nov 28 2008, 08:31 PM Post #30 |
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SKILLNADEN ÄR DRINKABILITY
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Oh. Is that what he meant. Okay. I guess that's legit. ? to your little doomsday situation though. Even if every religion thought they were "Earthly" better, I don't follow how that'd mean mass killing is the next logical step. Racists, sexists, and generally intolerant people are everywhere. Most of them tend not to massacre others. |
~~Wind Sword
Touching. Scientology
Smartest post ever made. | |
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