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| Tier List Discussion | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 3 2009, 03:33 PM (590 Views) | |
| +Ema Skye | Apr 3 2009, 03:33 PM Post #1 |
Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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5 Star Hard Mode Tier List Notes: Only Gaiden character considered is Nagi because she is recruitable without sucking at the game. Frey doesn't exist in this mode. This tier list is a rough draft based on one real playthrough and a low-tier playthrough, and looking at growths/bases/join times/etc. -Top Tier- Sedgar Wolf Cain Abel Xane -High Tier- Ogma Caeda Hardin Barst Cord Merric Marth Lena -Mid Tier- Tiki Beck Jake Linda Julian Catria Palla Wendell Navarre Jeigan Minerva Maria Characters I didn't place anywhere yet (most are definitely low to bottom): Boah Arran Samson Astram Midea Dolph Macellan Tomas Gordin Draug Bord Castor Darros Roshea Vyland Rickard Matthis Bantu Ceasar Radd Roger Jeorge Est Lorenz Elice Nagi It shouldn't be too hard to make a tier list for this game... Let's go! Edited by Ema Skye, Apr 9 2009, 12:27 AM.
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| Former Guest | Apr 3 2009, 04:52 PM Post #2 |
 
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Top Tier Oguma Cain Sheeda Abel Navarre Lena Barts Chainey (Xane) Hardin Catria Marth High Tier Wendel Wolf Zagaro Paola Riff Draug Julian Gato Cord Caesar Astoria Minerva Vyland Kashim Marich Linda Ricard Mid Tier Beck Jake Bord Radd Mathis Roshe Daros Roger Midia Banutu Maria Tiki Samson Ellis Nagi Low Tier Jeigan Aran Lorenz Est Boa George Tomth/Dolph Mishelan Gordon Thomas Eh, that's what I think. Basically in this game for this mode which is all I'll ever play, I don't care about anyone after Gato except for a very few people on occasion like the ballisticians - just a mess. Base Tiki is only 'good' for being able to one-shot certain mamkutes in ch. 24 (gl and hf doing that with her in the final) on her turn, depending on how much HP they have IIRC, and can't survive a single round of enemy phase combat. Her base AS is too low. One counter from anything, and she's probably dead whatever level she's at. Nagi doesn't have that kind of offensive momentum to begin with even if you do use her until at least most of the final's reinforcements have petered out. Despite the reclass option, too many of the characters aren't remotely usable let alone plenty usable to me like top through mid tiers in all other FEs, really - possibly some low tiers, even. Instead they flat-out suck balls........ 
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| +Ema Skye | Apr 3 2009, 05:32 PM Post #3 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Oguma is way too nerfed to still be a contender for best character. Cain, Abel, Zagaro, and Wolf are clearly better than him now. How did you rate those four so low? Actually... Wow @ your whole list. It doesn't make a bit of sense to me. Catria, for instance, is barely even usable in 5 star hard mode because of how much stronger all the enemies are than her. Edited by Ema Skye, Apr 3 2009, 05:34 PM.
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| Tino | Apr 3 2009, 05:51 PM Post #4 |
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Oguma is clearly better than Cain, Abel, Zagaro and Wolf. How did you rate him lower than them? |
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| +Ema Skye | Apr 3 2009, 08:16 PM Post #5 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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lol you stupidly turning my logic around on me doesn't work in this case because Oguma has significantly worse stats no horsey to compete with Cain and Abel's mobility no whoamg invincible Def stat like Zagaro and Wolf |
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| Big Boss | Apr 3 2009, 11:52 PM Post #6 |
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I'd put Wendel in high. For the ones not placed yet (you put Minerva there and she's already in mid, btw) bottom tier, without giving a lot of tought, should be Tomas, Est and Lawrence. The rest to low. |
 ^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan | |
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| +Ema Skye | Apr 4 2009, 01:58 AM Post #7 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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Wendell's 0% Def growth and pathetic 40% in HP means he never gets more durable...and enemies grow in Hit at about the same speed he grows in Evd due to his poor growth in Spd and really bad Lck... Maria even gets better than him really quickly. She's better than ??/10 Wendell at 20/1, and every healer is ridiculously easy to level up, and Maria can promote after only a few characters... That's just one example. He's outclassed by every other magic user besides Boah really easily. Wendell makes the earlygame beatable and is incredibly useful for the first ten or so chapters after he joins, but he's really terrible later on. His only purposes after you have other magic users is to give Merric support bonuses, be a back-up staff user, and occassionally hit something for ~10 damage. |
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| Tino | Apr 4 2009, 06:06 AM Post #8 |
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It's working so far, since I haven't seen you prove my point wrong. As long as neither of us doesn't prove our point to be correct, anything's fair game.
4/0 Oguma: 22 hp, 6 str, 11 skl, 12 spd, 6 def, 13 avo 2/0 AbeL: 21 hp, 6 str, 8 skl, 8 spd, 7 def, 9 avo 2/0 Cain: 21 hp, 7 str, 6 skl, 7 spd, 7 def, 8 avo Oguma: 90% hp, 40% str, 40% skl, 30% spd, 40% luc, 20% def Abel: 65% hp, 40% str, 50% skl, 50% spd, 25% luc, 20% def Cain: 75% hp, 35% str, 50% skl, 50% spd, 40% luc, 20% def Oguma: +6 hp, +2 str, +2 skl, +2 spd, +2 def, +3 res Abel/Cain: +4 hp, +2 str, +3 skl, +1 spd, +1 def, +6 res Significantly worse? I really doubt it. He has a good deal more hp, and only has a significantly worse spd growth than Abel and Cain. Though, does that really matter so much? Oguma/Abel/Cain 10/0: 14 spd/12 spd/12 spd 20/0: 17 spd/17 spd/17 spd 20/10: 22 spd/22 spd/22 spd 20/20: 24 spd/25 spd/25 spd Oguma actually has a spd lead for a good while, and then they're equal in spd for the rest of the game, since I doubt they're going to reach LvL 20/20. Aside of that, it's some res vs. hp and the ability to use axes. Their mov advantage? With the strong enemies in this game, I highly doubt you're going to send your units very far ahead of the main team, so that's a pretty moot point.
Wolf and Zagaro don't have good offense at all, which Oguma does have, while he's actually fairly durable himself thanks to high spd (so he basically never gets doubled) and pretty damn massive hp, so I'd argue Oguma's offense lead > their durability lead. |
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| Former Guest | Apr 4 2009, 10:36 AM Post #9 |
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You're not using Wendel because he can naturally one-round enemies (at least most of the time or without forges), or take any more than one round of physical damage max unlike <insert crappy mage here>, obviously. You're using him because a) he heals; b) with his base AS, he'll retain a lot of potential to whittle down the HP of enemies twice so others can get the kill EXP. I only reclassed him into a sniper before he was about to level up in one of the easier chapters so he could boost his AS a little, just enough to still double later cavaliers as in ch. 18. When, say, he outlives that offensive utility, and it becomes clear that even his resistance isn't going to make him any more durable than someone who doesn't use magic, he'll be dropped. He bowed out of my party at --/20 after ch. 22, obviously. What Tino said definitely has something to do with Oguma being that high, but also consider how weapon ranks work hand in hand with reclassing, furthermore increasing dph, lowering chances to be hit, enabling access to stronger weapons, etc. Oguma's starting with a C. Moreover, axes are still found among the enemies later on. On that note, I'm not really going to argue that swords are any good compared to axes/lances here. Their only ranged option = massive dick unless you shell out a fortune to forge a better version, even more than FE10's most common ranged option for swords. I knew I'd get in hot water over my opinion of Catria being >>> Marth. This is like Carrion >>> Leaf in FE5 or Makalov >>> Ike in FE9 all over again. Can the underlevelled fresh-faced melee recruit do it? Sporting a superior class to the lord who's already been forced deployment and trained for some time? In each of those examples I mentioned above, I think the answer is at least a modest fuck yeah, very much so. The games even throw in factors like a sword that grants Elite that a single unit can use mounted, BEXP, etc. like they want to make sure you get the hint, LOL. No idea what level your Marth is at by ch. 14, but mine from two playthroughs was around 12-13/o. I suppose if you were zealous he could be 14/0, but he's not that durable. A base Catria is very comparable to him against the enemies already, and her growths make her stats go up more often, and her default class is a lot better despite its weakness to bows, and she obviously levels faster.......need I go on? |
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| Mekkah | Apr 4 2009, 10:38 AM Post #10 |
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SF has a tier list that's discussed with much more detail than here but... Lena is too high. Her stats suck monkey balls, and staves aren't really much special in a game where generic replacements and reclass units can heal as well. All she has is Warp staff, and after promo nearly everyone can do that, and before that warping is generally undesirable. Xane should be pretty much above anyone except Zagaro and Wolf, since he's basically a carbon copy of anything you want. Linda being anything but Bottom is ridiculous. Just look at her durability. Hell, what is Marth doing below there? Beck and Jake should be next to each other. Maria sucks about as much as Linda, just moreso due to no Aura.
Just kill off people you're not using. It means you can be more careless with them, and you get free Iron weapons from generic replacements, plus the gaiden units make generally good fillers or even perm team members (Athena, Horace, Etzel).
You should look at this game on its own instead of comparing them to their FE3 incarnations. It has no practical value. It's like moving down FE6 Marcus below FE6 Bartre simply because he went a long way down from FE7 Marcus.
She's having trouble healing anything since she gets one-rounded by everything on the map forever. And Wendell has much more than a 10 level lead on her, especially when you consider that Maria has to cut out awesome people for promotion time just to become him. And Wendell has Excalibur. I question Cain and Abel in the same tier as Wolf and Zagaro as well. Invincibility >>>>> movement lead.
That's only a good thing in official biased debates, but it's annoying if you keep playing that card in topics that are actually supposed to go somewhere without having to explain to you why exactly Guy is a better unit than Wil in FE7.
You didn't even look at Wolf/Zagaro's durability compared to Oguma's. I recommend you do so, as there is much much much much more to it than "not getting doubled" and "pretty damn massive hp". Especially mid and lategame, their leads are so massive, they could take 3 hits from every melee enemy on the map and still have more than 3/4 of their hp left. As for Ogma's offense, he has trouble doubling. I think that about sums up how much better his offense is than Wolf and Zagaro. |
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| Tino | Apr 4 2009, 10:59 AM Post #11 |
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Yes, I know, but I've seen Inui make claims like that so often that I just had to say it. Besides, as I've shown, his claim didn't even hold true.
I suppose you might have a point about Oguma vs. Wolf/Zagaro, but if Oguma has trouble doubling, then so have Abel and Cain, so that definitely doesn't yield them any advantage. Just saying that to support my point of Oguma vs. Kain/Abel. |
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| Tripz | Apr 4 2009, 12:56 PM Post #12 |
Faucking Lethe in cat form^
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Looks good. I find it funny that like half of the team I used in my playthrough is either in mid or low tier. 
Edited by Tripz, Apr 4 2009, 12:58 PM.
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| Formely known as:Tripz, Sailor Pluto | |
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| Big Boss | Apr 4 2009, 04:59 PM Post #13 |
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Rena and Maria have 0% def too, and less HP growth. They get more durable only by like 10-14 avo coming from luck, considering they are at the same level, which doesn't happen.
Those 10 or so chapters give him a very clear advantage over every other unit you have in mid tier (except maybe Jeigan). And later one, the more healers, the merrier. Avoid isn't realible in this game and you're gonna get hit hard by the H5 enemies. Then what Mekkah said, Excalibur + no promo item. Edited by Big Boss, Apr 4 2009, 05:00 PM.
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^^by comatose from NationalSigLeague^^ Kratos/Jeigan | |
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| +Ema Skye | Apr 5 2009, 01:33 AM Post #14 |
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Snackoos = <3. It's science!
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No, you didn't do shit. You gave Oguma a stupid level lead he doesn't even have. Every single enemy in Chapter 1 is giving out literally 60 EXP, since it's 10 EXP for a hit and then 30 EXP for the kill, and it takes 4 hits to kill them. Cain, Abel, Caeda, and Marth are obviously being fed every single kill and the sword users are the ones baiting in hits, with Jeigan doing this as well. Then everyone has to attack the boss at once and camp him really hard and it takes forever to beat him, so there's even more EXP. Cain and Abel being less than level 4 after that chapter has yet to ever happen with me, and I actually use Jeigan... So their stats are much more comparable than you said they were. On top of that, they have mobility leads which do matter in terms of getting places and escaping. They can attack without taking counters, which is incredibly useful, and this makes them way more durable. Javelins are amazing. I think it's the best overall weapon. Cain and Abel have a two way support with each other that actually lets them dodge shit and hit with crappy weapons.
Did you forget about Hammerne? Iunno, man. I found her to be really nice to have around and not bad at all as a Sage. Her averages aren't too bad and she isn't one-shotted usually. Her durability isn't much different from the other magic users besides Merric.
Nah. He has to use a turn in order to transform, so he's minus 1 turn compared to everyone else on every other 5th turn. Her starts off with his horrible base HP, which will force 2-3 healers to heal him, which is good for the healers' EXP, but they probably don't need it and it would be better for them to focus on healing the rest of the team. If Xane is copying someone like Zagaro in order to frontline, the healers can't safely go to him and heal him a lot. He doesn't do shit in terms of supports.
She's hard to raise and not durable enough to use? What? I reclass her into a Cleric, raise her up a lot as one by spamming good staves, which is incredibly easy to do, and then reclass her back to a mage. She'll soon promote and have good weapon levels in both staves and tomes and her gigantic Mag stat is awesome. She grows enough in HP to not die in one hit and she's never doubled. She also has nice Evd with supports and terrain, both of which are abundant later on. Aura is also rape. Linda destroyed the last few chapters of the game on both playthroughs I did because of her crazy offense. She also raped every Gharnef on the map really easily.
Beck Str: 6/25% Skl: 4/30% Lck: 5/35% Jake Str: 5/30% Skl: 1/50% Lck: 3/50% I feel much safer using Beck. Both will gain few levels overall and those are the only three stats that matter for them. Oh wait...I just saw support stuff with regards to them, and Jake rapes him there, so he gets Hit boosts more. Not bad. You're right, I suppose.
I probably did overrate Maria, but I don't she's bottom tier.
Cain and Abel are almost invincible. They have nice HP, decent Def, good WT control, and boosts to their Evd from supports. They also have significantly better offense overall. Great offense + supports + mobility > being invincible. At least in the case when the durability of the other units is fine enough. This is like how Gatrie loses to the Paladins in FE 9. |
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| Mekkah | Apr 5 2009, 05:49 AM Post #15 |
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Hammerne is the one reason why she's better than some generic healploxer, besides "early Warp" (which doesn't really do anything significant).
I don't care about your personal experience. She gets ORKOed by brave weapons in lategame, and she gets 2HKOed by Silver/Forged enemies, and some may double her so that'd be ORK. Whereas Merric gets 3HKOed, sometimes 4HKOed. And this is Merric, a unit with far below average durability. Someone like Javelin Abel destroys her in durability and offense.
On turn 1, nothing happens usually, so Xane can transform for free there. Then enemies usually come in groups, with enemy density being low (like, lower than FE6), and he doesn't untransform until player phase, so he never has to wory about being his weak self on enemy phase.
One Recover is enough to get him to full if that's a problem (you can buy them in late), and before that, again on turn 1 there's shit to do for healers anyway. You're making a huge deal out of his pro's, but you forget what Xane gives you. Need to take out a Fortify priest? Copy Beck. Need an extra roadblock? Copy Sedgar or Wolf. Need more healing power? Copy Merric. And yes, he can safely copy just fine. Just because he's copying Sedgar doesn't mean everyone next to the one next to Sedgar is suddendly exposed to enemies. Plus, Sedgar takes 0 damage from everything but magic at this point, so you wouldn't even have to heal him.
You're vastly overrating supports. At max support level, people give each other 10 hit/10 avo/5 critical/5 evade. Look at how much anything is dodging in this game and you'll see how much 10 hit/10 avo helps you. 5 crit/5 cev is absolute shit.
Have fun with your personal experience. Anyway, behold the stats of a 20/1 Linda that goes Cleric -> Sage and has a B level from both Marth and Merric (lol, everyone has a bonus from Marth by now): 9 mag, 15.5 spd - - 44.5 avo, 31.6 hp, 4 def, 12.4 res Aura: 27 atk, 15.5 AS Thunder: 15 atk, 15.5 AS iono what chapter this would be at...but anyway, it takes 21 atk to 2HKO Linda. To give you an idea how durable that is, a Ch6 Armor has 22-23 atk. Every Brave weapon enemy in Ch20 has enough Atk to ORKO. For offense, she doesn't double Paladins, Horsemen, Wyverns, Snipers, Pegasi, Thieves, lolPriests and of course Mamkutes. She does double Shooters and Knights, but everyone does that.
What I mean is that there shouldn't be anyone between them, since they're so similar. Try arguing why the people between them are better than one but not the other while staying consistent. And don't give me that "omg support" crap. Plus, 99% of Jake's support list are crap units by now.
She is. What does she do that you can't do with a generic character again? Even Gordin is better than her if you reclass him to Cleric.
They're definitely nowhere near invincible. Again, supports do not matter shit. "Nice hp and decent def" my ass, they get 2-4 rounded nearly all game long. Sedgar and Wolf start off 3-rounded maybe, and then within 2 levels or so that becomes something like 10-rounded or 20-rounded or infinite-rounded. You put too much stock in evade. Enemies will always have at least 50 hit on them unless they have WTA (but the most common enemy type, lances, forces them to WTN in the best case). And then there's those forged Horseslayers. This is NOTHING like FE9 where nobody dies. Durability is much more important than offense. Plus, their offense is fixable by using stronger weapons on their own, while increasing defense is only possible through the use of stat boosters pretty much. |
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