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| New Debate Topic; I'm going to Nationals | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 28 2009, 08:03 AM (260 Views) | |
| Ephidel | May 8 2009, 02:49 PM Post #16 |
 
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I could claim that Christianity is a fandom (admittedly, a very devoted fandom - like FFVII's, only slightly less zealous), and the Bible is merely for entertainment purposes. What makes it so special and important, tradition aside? What gives it greater rights and freedoms than, say, Pastafarianism? The issue isn't the threat that it poses; it's merely "why should that guy have more rights than me? what has he done to earn these rights, other than claim to hold certain beliefs?" (and it's worth remembering that many children only affiliate themselves with religion out of familial obligations and actually have no real faith in said religion, invalidating the argument of "it's critical to their beliefs"). Why should religion entitle you to more freedoms than the next guy? I suppose maybe it's borne out of jealousy. Why are Sikhs allowed long hair and beards, and why are Christians allowed jewellery, whereas these are forbidden to me merely because I'm an Atheist? So hey, perhaps it's just envy talking! Edited by Ephidel, May 8 2009, 02:53 PM.
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| Soja | May 8 2009, 04:20 PM Post #17 |
Gentle Water, Crashing Waves
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Load of horseshit. You have made me draw my scalpel for the first time in many a month. You could claim that Christianity is a fandom, and in ways you would be right, but what differs it from a video game is that the 'fandom' is less a fandom and more a cultural group, or subgroup if you will. What gives Christianity, Islam, Judaism (Hell, let's just classify those three under Abrahamic Religions) more legitimacy than satirical organizations like Pastafarianism is that there is a social consensus that these are acceptable viewpoints to hold and, thus, respected. Pastafarianism is, for the most part, regarded as a joke. Then again, most religions were when they first started out. Then the ones jeering found it a little hard to laugh with their heads severed from their bodies. Your broad generalization that children "only follow these religions out of familial obligations" is laughable. We aren't talking grade schoolers. These are teenagers who have more or less made up their minds for the next ten years what they believe in. To say that they have "no real faith" is an extremely broad assumption that is implying that you have some sort of omniscient capability or are simply reaching for something by which to invalidate my statement (which, for aforementioned reasons, it doesn't). You seem to be very, very, very confused about the subject of this debate. No one's rights are being abridged by allowing Muslims to wear headscarves, Christians to wear crosses, etc. Those are choices. All others may opt out or in. Jews may wear medallions or skull caps, and atheists don't really have anything to show their belief by, so honestly why should they care? With the law, however, the rights to freedom of religious expression are being abridged. The religious ones are being told that they cannot wear devices indicating their beliefs. It's not that they have more rights than non-religious individuals; it's that those rights have been taken away. As long as the display isn't disruptive, disorderly, or endangering, it's legal. The law is unjust, it should be repealed, France sucks cock, I rest my case. |
Fusion Universe - FEF Fanfic Slayers Forth - Slayers Fanfic Smartest Member '06 & '07 & '08 & 'o9, Favored Debater '07 & '08 & '09, Most Popular '08, Manliest '08 & '09, Author of Nightmares, Scourge of the Luxon, Rules Lawyer, Nick's Former Hero, Crysta's Lover | |
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| Sentenal | May 8 2009, 10:56 PM Post #18 |
When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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I can almost guarantee you, if you are an Atheist, you wouldn't be forbidden from wearing headscarves, cross, crucifixes, etc etc. I mean, how are they going to prove you aren't of a certain religion? The question is, if you are an Atheist, why would you want to wear one of them? edit: to clarify, I didn't mean in France. I mean in countries that do allow for people to wear things like that in school. Edited by Sentenal, May 8 2009, 10:57 PM.
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| Ephidel | May 9 2009, 03:45 AM Post #19 |
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Many =/= all. Furthermore, it's plain logic that if your parents are of a certain religious or cultural background, you're likely to pick it up yourself. Parental influence is inarguably a major cause of religion.
Perhaps you're right, in a sense. No-one is having their rights taken away. However, more rights are being granted to certain people whilst being withheld from others.
Well, these three things are relevant to me. I guess I have a right to care when my freedom to dress as I wish are being oppressed whilst others may do as they please.
By all means, repeal it. But then, give the same freedoms to everyone.
The issue for me isn't headscarves, or Sikh daggers. I don't have any particular wish to carry those. It's these three points that irritate me the most. They are forbidden from me, and I have on numerous occasions been challenged regarding them.
Said school requires you to have a signed letter from your priest. |
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| Sentenal | May 9 2009, 09:26 AM Post #20 |
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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Just go to a Priest and get a letter. People don't make you take a test or fill out papers to join a religion. If your an Atheist, why would you care about lying to a Priest? The point is, if you really want to wear religious items, you can. If people weren't allowed to that that, it would be infringing on Freedom of Religion. |
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| Soja | May 9 2009, 06:39 PM Post #21 |
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves
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I FUCKING HATE THIS QUOTE SYSTEM
No, it's a major cause of passing on that religion. Religion is caused by a variety of other things, but that's for another thread.
Wrong. I am right. Haha. No one is being restricted from having these rights; they just have to be of the appropriate religion. Chances are that, unless you are a Muslim female, you're not going to want to wear a headscarf; if you're not a Christian, you're not going to want to wear a cross (some of us don't anyway). This is why I think this argument is ridiculous.
Oh, you are so oppressed by not being allowed to wear religious articles when you're not religious!
Everyone has the freedom to religion. 
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| Simon | May 9 2009, 07:00 PM Post #22 |
The strongest among you may not wear a crown
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Would you be fine with anyone being allowed to have long hair and beards, etc? |
Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
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| Ephidel | May 10 2009, 05:07 AM Post #23 |
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Of course. As I explained, that's my major grudge in this topic. 
So I *have* to convert to Sikhism in order to have long hair? Seems like a silly rule.
For me, long hair isn't a "religious article". It's the body image that I feel most comfortable with, and am being refused on very silly grounds. It just so happens that long hair is coincidentally a religious article of certain religions.
But why should that be the qualifying attribute for who deserves to dress as they wish and who doesn't?
I don't want headscarves or crosses. I want the right to long hair, beards and jewellery.
I'd argue that if it weren't for parental propagation, religion would be near-dead by the next century. But that's a different rant. |
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| Soja | May 10 2009, 12:30 PM Post #24 |
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Gentle Water, Crashing Waves
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I'm going to venture a guess and say that your school doesn't allow disruptively long hair and/or beards regardless of religious creed. And regardless of the rule, I'm sure it could be styled in such a way that it's overlooked by the enforcers of those rules. I should know since I had longer hair in high school than I do now and we had a similarly worded dress code. Not that anyone your age could actually grow a beard like that.
This is about clothing and the expression of one's faith through the wearing of that clothing, which is sometimes religiously obligated. I'll agree with you; I don't regard hair as a religious article, but it's probably restricted for a different reason. Probably image.
Because the restricted articles are not something that someone who is areligious should be missing anyway.
Then take that up with your school's governing board since none of that is restricted to or from religion. Like I mentioned earlier, my school—and many others, likely—have similar rulings. And I have given you a workaround as well. And again, no one your age could have a beard like that, so that's a moot point. Jewelry was never restricted in my school or any I've heard of. All that is required is that jewelry be generally acceptable in its design, small and non-cumbersome in size, and not distracting overall. This means no penises, no "bling," and no flashing neon LEDs.
I'd argue that if it weren't for parental propagation, culture itself would be near-dead by the next century. See, it's simply human to pass on the traditions of the time to one's offspring to keep or modify for themselves before passing it on to their offspring. It's not something limited to religion but all things we take from our parents, including language and social behavior. Or pretty much any mammalian creature, really. |
Fusion Universe - FEF Fanfic Slayers Forth - Slayers Fanfic Smartest Member '06 & '07 & '08 & 'o9, Favored Debater '07 & '08 & '09, Most Popular '08, Manliest '08 & '09, Author of Nightmares, Scourge of the Luxon, Rules Lawyer, Nick's Former Hero, Crysta's Lover | |
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| Simon | May 14 2009, 11:46 PM Post #25 |
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The strongest among you may not wear a crown
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After re-reading, I'm not so sure on this "familial obligations" bit. Frankly, I'm a bit offended that you think me so base and incapable of intellectual pursuits as to choose for myself a religious belief, and I certainly don't understand why I would be obligated to be, say, a Southern Baptist because of family. I don't care if my parents or grandparents or third-cousin-twice-removed demands I be Southern Baptist, I will choose to be whatever religion or denomination I wish to be and nothing they say is stopping it. |
Previously: Ron DeLite, Simon
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| Ephidel | May 15 2009, 11:02 AM Post #26 |
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I feel that you're misunderstanding my point. Religion is propagated because, in many cases, parents pass down their beliefs to their children. It's common sense - if you're exposed to a certain faith at home constantly, you're likely to inherit said religion even into adulthood. Of course you could be an exception, but there's no denying a correlation between religious parents and religious children. By all means, it's your choice. But if you're exposed to something every day and made to see it as right, then you're not as likely to question it or see it in the wrong. |
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| +Reaver | May 16 2009, 08:20 PM Post #27 |
Troll
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I resent this because being an atheist does not mean you disregard any and all ethical obligations to other human beings. You don't need to believe in God to decide that lying is wrong, as an example. Otherwise completely agreed. Ephidel does have a point, however, regarding equal rights. You can't grant certain privledges to one group and exclude another. However, I feel he uses the point in an incorrect manner by pointing to specific traditions. Sure, female practicioners of Islam may be the only people allowed to wear headscarves in school and you can point to the individual case to say the school offers special privledges to members of a certain religion. However, the overarcing concept of the freedom to practice any religion is intact and balanced between all cultures. Jewish boys should be able to wear yamakas, Christians crucifixes, Muslim girls headscarves, etcetera. Looking at individual pieces he's right, but on the overall idea of religious freedom he is wrong. Edited by Reaver, May 16 2009, 08:21 PM.
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| Sentenal | May 17 2009, 12:36 AM Post #28 |
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When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.
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Atheists don't have a doctrine that is more or less set in stone. I don't mean to say that people who don't worship a god, or fall within a religion don't have morals. Rather, their morals are more or less defined by themselves. An Atheist's set of morals may allow them to lie to a priest, in order to accomplish some objective. Or it might not. But in any case, an Atheist wouldn't believe there would be any consequence to lying, one way or another. |
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| Ephidel | May 17 2009, 05:17 AM Post #29 |
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Feelings of guilt? Possible negative consequences for the person being lied to? You're right in saying that Atheists define our own morals, and that's exactly the point: most of us DO set ourselves moral boundaries. I'd say it's a relative minority who go around saying "No-one compels me to do good, therefore I'll do what I like". |
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| +Reaver | May 17 2009, 02:29 PM Post #30 |
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Troll
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The violation of one's personal tenets? That's a pretty big consequence of lying, assuming an atheist holds telling the truth as an ethical obligation. I suppose I also must agree that some atheists see the lack of divine punishment as a way to act immoral or amoral. |
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