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| Why hate TOR?; or why anti-TOR"... | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 24 2010, 11:02 PM (2,647 Views) | |
| Uncertain Disciple | Jul 24 2010, 11:02 PM Post #1 |
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Some of you seem to like TOR and it's progress. And most of you still seem to despise it to its very core. This question goes to the haters: If you hate TOR so much, then why do you bother making this hate known to the public on a daily basis? Everyone more or less gets the picture. You despise TOR because it's an MMO and likely says that there will be no KoTOR III, okay then. Your dislike is understandable, but is it really appropriate for you to vent it out with the coming of every News Feed, Trailer or Announcement? It does get a slight tiring to see the same complaints over and over again even when the game is so far in; Game Testing is more or less underway. While nowhere near Beta Testing, it'll be made available to a chosen few based on their computer specifications; Testing it still is. You're making this game sound like the End of the Mayan Calendar for Pete's sake. If you hate TOR, fine; just don't make it an obligation to remind us every time a topic is posted. :/ ----------------------------------- EDIT: I'm also seeing complaints regarding continuity with the KotOR games; especially regarding KotOR II. You must remember that the events in KotOR II, no matter how large-scale they seemed served no real purpose in the shaping of the Galaxy. There's a reason as to why it was called a 'Shadow War'. The political front of the Republic didn't change, and many of the conflicts fought in the game were on rather minor locations at best; incidents behind closed doors. Bioware indeed has acknowledged The Sith Lords as canon material, but the material in the story wasn't major enough to influence the entire galaxy as a whole. Keep in mind Kreia's teachings, for those who actually listened in on them. She didn't want you attracting attention not worth your while, and when you did she chastised you rather thoroughly. Compared to the events of Knights of the Old Republic, the events of The Sith Lords were all a back-room deal. And speaking of Revan; when it comes down to it, he's not as head-honcho as everyone has made him to be. He's a truly great Jedi yes, but with the way people have been identifying him, you make him out to be a god or something. I love Revan as much as the next guy but come on now; every Jedi has limits to what they can do. Revan's own stop at Tactical Genius and Proficiency in Single Combat. EDIT TPIOM: I must rename this thread to get a better title. |
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| Revan 411 | Jul 25 2010, 12:29 AM Post #2 |
Jedi Knight
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First off, BioWare retconned almost all of the events before KotOR, so that they could have both Revan, and Malak serve an unknown Sith Empire; which completely contradicts every single plot build-up that Obsidian Entertainment did with KotOR II, and it also contradicts Revan's True Sith journey that he went on after the events of KotOR I. In KotOR II, Kreia repeatedly mentions the True Sith faction as a secret organization that has to be fought through the force, not with machines, or technology. She lied multiple times throughout the game, because she wanted The Exile to be prepared to face the True Sith once his journey is complete. And then The Exile's journey ends like that... no answers, no news, nothing of any kind. Just one big plot hole that we'll never, ever end up witnessing. The Exile saved the Galaxy more times then Revan ever did. He saved it from a threat that nobody else would be able to defeat besides him. And that very threat was Darth Nihlius; who would consume, and destroy every single living organism in the entire Galaxy if The Exile didn't stop him. If KotOR III, a properly single player KotOR II, is made; then I would like for BioWare to not involve the stories of what The Exile, and Revan did in the Unknown Regions in their MMO. They've already screwed up the back-story for the KotOR games, and I would cringe deeply if they screwed up the Unknown Regions idea. Second, I don't think Revan is the best character in the entire Star Wars Universe. Heck, I don't even like him in KotOR I. But the retconned role that BioWare has given him in TOR destroys his character for me. The fact that he served under a generic, and stereotypical Sith Empire is an insult to writing staff of Obsidian Entertainment, who worked hard to give Revan a more meaningful depth, and personal back-story. My final point is that BioWare has completely destroyed almost all of the back-story that were established in the KotOR games. I refuse to accept the story-line material of TOR as canon, and I'm sure other life-long KotOR fans feel the same way as me towards BioWare's idiotic writing, and the MMO itself. |
 
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| Tpiom | Jul 25 2010, 01:08 AM Post #3 |
Sith Lord
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Well... it depends on how you look at it. Just pre-K2 and in the game the Jedi are being hunted, by both the exchange and the Sith. An entire council, Katarr that is, was wiped out by a... "creature" consumed by the force (Nihilus). The droids rise to power, the HK-51s, eliminating their enemies - who are responsible for many conflicts and all that. If Nihilus for instance had not been stopped, then the galaxy would be dead by the time we'd reach TOR (300 years after). He consumed worlds in his wake. Kreia says (believe it or not) that he was approaching the height of his power, closing in on the ancient Sith Lords! She mentions on Korriban that the modern Jedi/Sith were toys to the ancient Sith Lords. If the republic's restoration project on Telos was a success then the Republic would start other restorations: if a failure, then there would be no more projects like it. Meaning massive restorations started, healing up (as the exile went LS by canon). The Jedi... are ignorant weirdos - all dead, betrayed by their own and hunted by the Sith. They fail to stand together, to do something, and get the whole picture, which is why they're killed in this game and almost killed completely. And we get the first (?) force user who's using the Force but does not "own" the Force. He (she in canon - but it sucks...) leeches the Force from others, is seen: The Exile. So for Bioware saying that the material in the story wasn't major enough to influence the entire galaxy as a whole is completely wrong. I doubt they have even played the game when they make such acclaims. If they have, they did not get it... As for the other "question" I have my reasons, two of which you have already mentioned but I never speak in a "YouTube language". I'm angry because they get things wrong: it's mentioned that Bastila fought against Malak - she did not, it's mentioned that she's a jedi master, she was not (at that time). Revan taking orders from a Sith Lord was completely out of his character... He was his own master! Not to mention the game looks like Clone Wars but whatever... all of this, and more, is why I play WoW - at least they does not screw up. |
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"I expect most of us are going to die today, so you might want to think about all the things you care about. It won't matter soon. Uh... That's it, really." - The Exile | |
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| Revan 411 | Jul 25 2010, 01:24 AM Post #4 |
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Jedi Knight
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Well said my good friend!  Well said.
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| LukeDavis93 | Jul 25 2010, 05:33 AM Post #5 |
Jedi Padawan
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u wanna know why I despise TOR uncertain disciple? play through KOTOR and KOTOR 2 and you'll have the answer |
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| Darth Varkor | Jul 25 2010, 09:45 AM Post #6 |
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Unregistered
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Well although some of the combat and the whole chose a side thing appeals to me; i'm starting to dislike TOR after reading Revan411's points. |
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| LukeDavis93 | Jul 25 2010, 05:50 PM Post #7 |
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Jedi Padawan
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yeah for once I agree with him and like I addressed in another topic, why not put K3 back in development? there is no financial situation stopping them besides greed |
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| Master Jedi | Jul 26 2010, 05:07 AM Post #8 |
Bantha Fodder
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KOTOR 3 would have been epic, but anyone who has been following TOR knows how much quality is going into it. They have a larger team, a bigger budget, and over half a decade and counting on production. This game will be epic. The latest reveal at Comic-Con is that there will be space combat! Drew Karpyshyn, the lead writer for KOTOR, wrote this a while back on the FAQ section of his web-site: "Are you working on the Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO? Yes. Now that I’m in Austin and my share of the writing on ME#2 is done, I’m part of the MMO team. And I have to say, I’m very impressed by the quality and incredible scope of the stories we’re putting into the game." You can also read an interview that he gave recently at Comic-Con: http://darthhater.com/2010/07/25/comic-con...shyn-interview/ This game is going to be AWESOME!! Read his interview. Seriously. Do it!! |
| Click to see the best Mass Effect 3(ish) fan trailer I've ever seen! | |
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| ...bman999 | Jul 26 2010, 05:25 PM Post #9 |
Jedi Youngling
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I agree with what everyone said about KotOR II's story being destroyed, but to put it more simply, the game takes place over 300 years after KotOR I and II. Sure, maybe they'll tell us what happened to Revan and the Exile after the fact, but the point is that we won't get to live the epic moment for ourselves, playing with the two main characters that we've come to know and love. To say that both were martyred for a greater cause, well, that takes away all the immediate sense of peril, especially when we know that their sacrifices didn't do a damn thing to stop the "Sith Emperor", seeing as he's still attacking the Republic over 300 years later. What's the point of the Exile's personal journey if we never get to actually live the climax of it? What good is all of Revan's tactical and visionary genius if it served no purpose as a setup for a typical Republic vs Empire story? Everything is lost, and we're supposed to look forward to this game? |
| "Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." -Albert Einstein | |
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| Uncertain Disciple | Jul 28 2010, 09:09 PM Post #10 |
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Tpiom, your post is riddled with "Ifs" that don't happen. And to answer your 'Bioware didn't play KotOR II comment,
They are not ignoring the events of KotOR II. It is just that the things that happened in KotOR II happened behind the scenes, and are largely forgotten or lost by the time of TOR. But they have also said in the past that there will be eastern eggs and references to some of the things that happened in KotOR II. There's a reason as to why KotOR II wasn't given a section of the timeline for TOR. That was because the Political Climate before K2 was the same as it was after K2. The Political Landscape never changed because of K2. Most to all of what happened in KotOR II happened out of the public eye. Most of the events were not within public knowledge. And whatever was recorded was done in rather scarce amount. Very few people knew of what transpired during that time period, and it's likely that whatever happened was kept off the record. The galaxy, moreover the Republic wasn't prepared for another widespread war. So they worked to contain it as quickly and as covertly as they possibly could. KOTOR 2 is not and cannot be Ignored. Even though KOTOR 2 was developed by Obsidian [whom was recommended to develop K2 by BioWare], LucasArts is the SOLE Connecting Force behind K1, K2 and TOR. Also, BioWare has stated that they will respect the Canon & Lore that is and of KOTOR 2. They are not Ignoring it, because they cannot ignore it. There will be Clues and whatnot from KOTOR 2 just as there will be of KOTOR 1. And concerning retconning, I don't see what's wrong with it. The whole 'Jedi Master Bastilla Shan' thing may have referring to a possible promotion she received following the events of KotOR. I did find the Bastilla and Revan vs Malak thing a little anticlimactic in the Timeline, but whatever.
Has she seen this True Sith faction for herself? I highly doubt that possibility. The only way she could have known about them would be Revan telling her of it. Are we sure Kreia's stories of Revan were the truth? Or are they what she herself wanted to believe? KOTOR 2 is not and cannot be Ignored. Even though KOTOR 2 was developed by Obsidian [whom was recommended to develop K2 by BioWare], LucasArts is the SOLE Connecting Force behind K1, K2 and TOR. Also, BioWare has stated that they will respect the Canon & Lore that is and of KOTOR 2. They are not Ignoring it, because they cannot ignore it. There will be Clues and whatnot from KOTOR 2 just as there will be of KOTOR 1. I do somewhat doubt that they'll chronicle the Unknown Regions journey of the Exile and Revan; it does seem that they're leaving that area of space out of the game. Mainly because they're supposed to be unknown. All in all, no matter the IF scenarios you present to the table, that doesn't stop the way things went in KotOR I and II. ...I think I'm just rambling at this point. |
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| Uncertain Disciple | Jul 28 2010, 09:17 PM Post #11 |
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Nothing was Retcon. They simply expanded on Malak's and Revan's Characters before the Events of KOTOR 1. It didn't contradict anything. In K2, all we were told was that he went into the Unknown, we weren't told why he went in.
Kreia had lied multiple times, therefore you don't know what to believe and what not to believe.
The Exile is Canonically Female not Male. Also, Darth Nihilus had to have died. Also, that was but 1 Person, as opposed to what Revan did.
KOTOR 3 was only a Rumor. Also, what did they screw up? They haven't screw up anything, in regards to the Backstories of K1 and K2.
WHAT Retcon? There was no Retcon. BioWare EXPANDED upon his Character. What depth or backstory? Revan was only mentioned, what 2 or 3 times, in K2. Also, they never went into detail on the True Sith Empire, only that it existed. |
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| Revan 411 | Jul 28 2010, 10:55 PM Post #12 |
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Jedi Knight
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Congratulations, you just contradicted yourself.
Hmm...
They didn't "simply" expanded on their respective back-stories; they explicitly went out of their way to have those two specific characters be retconned. For example, both characters served under a generic Sith Empire. Was this information known to us during KotOR I? Or KotOR II? No, it was introduced in TOR, and was a rather idiotic idea on BioWare's part.
I will admit that I, myself, don't understand some of her talks sometimes; but she was right about The True Sith, and its existences. Heck, even BioWare (a developer that you absolutely love, and are willing to defend) acknowledges The True Sith's existence.
I don't give a damn about the canonization of KotOR II, and The Old Republic. If LucasArts, and other Lucas operated companies are willing to canonize The Old Republic, then that just simply gives me all the more reason to bluntly ignore canon. As for Nihilus, he was one individual, yes; but he possessed the extreme, and intense power to destroy the entire Galaxy, and its inhabitants. Nobody could stop him, not even Revan. The Exile was the only one who could stop him. If Nihilus isn't enough, then look at Sion, or Traya. If all three were united as as one Sith banner, then the galaxy within KotOR would not exist.
No, it wasn't just a rumor. It entered development briefly in December of 2004, only for it to get canceled by the evil heads of LucasArts. *cough* Jim Ward *cough* And to be quite frank, I would much prefer a KotOR 3 over the MMO that shall not be named. Heck, I would even prefer "nothing" over the MMO that shall not be named.
BioWare didn't expand on his character, they destroyed it by canonizing Bastila's appearance with him on The Star Forge when their facing Malak, to make him look weak, and to have him serve under a Sith Empire, a stereotypical Sith Empire, that we've all seen within the Original Trilogy of Star Wars, and the Prequel Trilogy of Star Wars. And to add further insult to his (Revan's) character, they tell us that he never came back from the Unknown Regions. Implying to us that he failed, and is dead. As for the back-story, or depth that he was given within KotOR II, he is mentioned in almost every conversation within K2. Kreia, for example, tells us that she was one of his teachers, and thought him the most about the Force, the Sith, etc... Heck, it can even be argued that Revan was the one who started up the Sith Academy on Malachor V, along with Kreia. And finally, The True Sith were never suppose to be the critical villain of KotOR II. They were mentioned only because if they had the villain spotlight, then who would be the villain of KotOR III? Besides, they were a secret organization, who's exposure to the outside world (i.e: the world outside of the Unknown Regions) would destroy the concept, and premise of them. |
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| ...bman999 | Jul 28 2010, 10:55 PM Post #13 |
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Jedi Youngling
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The events of KotOR 2 only seem to have no effect on the political standing because BioWare said so. By Obsidian's original intentions, which we may now never know, thanks to BioWare and LucasArt's handiwork, the political face of the galaxy WAS supposed to change, with Carth and the newly saved Republic behind it. The business with Kreia and Sion was the only thing out of the publics eye. All the rest of the Republic knew about what Nihilus's legion tried to do. Nihilus's legion of the Triumvirate rivaled the remainder of the Republic fleet in firepower, and what with the potential consequences behind his actions (Telos, Restoration Effort, you know), it's quite obvious that the political front was INTENDED to change. You can't make claims about the story of KotOR II from BioWare's point of view, because BioWare didn't engineer the story, and its out of their domain to be saying what did and didn't happen. Like you said, the Unknown Region battles are likely NOT going to be documented in the history of events prior to this game. And if BioWare is going to ignore the political intentions of KotOR II's story, and the climax of the Exile's journey (i.e. the Unknown Regions battles) is left out, then explain how the events of KotOR II will be brought into context AT ALL. They've already systematically eliminated every part of it that would impact their precious story. So what's the point of mentioning the unresolved part of the Exile's journey? EVERYTHING that Kreia said to the Exile had a point in Obsidian's eyes, in Chris Avellone's eyes, whether about Revan or the True Sith; it's all related. The True Sith was the entire point of KotOR II's story; it was the climax, the final resonance of everything the Exile had learned. It wouldn't have been Kreia's own consolation to herself. It would have been exactly what they made it out to be, otherwise the story would have been pointless. 'IF' scenarios aside, the events of KotOR and KotOR II happened, sure, but the events of KotOR II are subject to interpretation by NO ONE but Chris Avellone and Obsidian. They MADE the story, and INTENDED to conclude it. That being said, I'd like to respond to what you said about developers. First and foremost, I love Obsidian for what they did to the KotOR series. Second, I don't hate BioWare at all. I respect them almost all their games. I just don't think that KotOR II, or anything beyond KotOR I for that matter, is in their jurisdiction any longer. Third, the fact that LucasArts is the company unifying this whole thing is the worst part of it all. LucasArts cares nothing for the stories of this game, which is made evident by how they rushed KotOR II out for a Christmas release, and how nearly all their games (e.g. The Force Unleashed, nearly all Clone Wars games) are pieces of crap made solely to make money. I feel no reassurance with them as the "connecting force" of KotOR I and II. The retcon 411 refers to is quite obvious: the fact that Revan supposedly was under the control of the Sith Emperor the whole time, rather than acting as his own master with his own intentions. If you even talked to Kreia, you'd know that she and many other characters' own interpretations of Revan's actions, under Obsidian's writing, expanded on his character ten fold, changing him from a typical hero to a great visionary, idealistic and wise beyond his years, quite like Matthew Stover did to Jacen Solo in New Jedi Order. Kreia did lie a lot, and that's true, we don't know what to believe, but Obsidian does, and they would have written KotOR III based on what they knew, but based on what BioWare guessed and then declared official. The Exile's character is kept greatly in the shadows, but she easily did more than Revan could have hoped to. She killed both Nihilus and Sion, destroyed their legions, and stopped Kreia's plan, who was Revan's MASTER, the one who taught him everything he knew, everything worthwhile, at least. |
| "Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." -Albert Einstein | |
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| Uncertain Disciple | Jul 29 2010, 12:03 AM Post #14 |
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Bleh. Well alright then. My original intention as to the creation of this topic was to find why you choose to make your hate for the game known all the time but then it spiraled into retconning. I just found it rather bothersome. I'm no massive fanboy or anything but bah. I guess I'm done trying to argue. I'll just see how this game goes; I'd been waiting for a KotOR-like experience I could share with others ever since completing the original game. You all have your opinions of course but I just feel that you're forcing them on those who wish or wished to enjoy it. Everyone knows you'll despise this project for as long as it will stand, but is there really necessary to blast your hateful opinions? I realize that they can simply be ignored and whatnot, but some comments here are just impossible to do so; trollish, reasoned or otherwise. Hope you understand. I'm done. |
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| ...bman999 | Jul 29 2010, 12:25 AM Post #15 |
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Jedi Youngling
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My good man, you asked, we answered. Sorry if I sounded a little TOO strong in my opinion. In truth, I don't hate TOR. It'll probably be a decent game, if not a great game. It's BioWare, for crying out loud. We've all seen some of the quality that BioWare is capable of producing. If people want to play the game, they're welcome to do so. I'm sure they'll have fun. I won't be silent, however, about BioWare's disregard for KotOR II, which has been made rather apparent so far. It's not just BioWare, in fact, but everyone that flamed it, when the original intentions of the story could never even be fully fleshed out. KotOR II deserved better; Obsidian and Chris Avellone deserved more. |
| "Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." -Albert Einstein | |
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